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Offline farseer aldraden

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talismans of vaul
« on: June 26, 2005, 08:27:40 PM »
what exactly are the talismans of vaul?

Offline DanBZ

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2005, 08:40:59 PM »
The Talismans of Vaul are another name for the Blackstone Fortresses.  (Source:  US White Dwarf, July 2002)  Vaul, the Eldar god of the forge, created them to kill the C'Tan.  They work by channeling energy from the Warp into the physical universe.  They are among the only things in the galaxy, if not THE only things in the galaxy, that can destroy a C'Tan, since a C'Tan can only be killed if it is exposed to enormous amounts of warp/chaos energy.
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Offline farseer aldraden

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2005, 08:43:39 PM »
sweet thanks

Offline Irandrura

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2005, 09:11:07 PM »
It's in the Battlefleet Gothic fluff...

Basically, the Imperium found half a dozen of these things around in deep space, and towed them back to the Gothic Sector. Each station, dubbed 'Blackstone Fortresses' was refitted and turned into a base for the Imperial Navy. They didn't know exactly what the Blackstones were or what they did, but they were able to use them as powerful, almost impregnable starbases, once they were equipped with batteries and lances and their formidable docking facilities were made use of. There was one in each subsector, except for Port Maw. The Imperial Navy was very proud of the fact that no Blackstone had ever fallen in battle.

Then, of course, the Gothic War started. Abaddon's Chaos fleet attacked the Gothic Sector. Abaddon had a pair of C'tan artifacts called the Hand of Darkness and the Eye of Night. With these (although it's questionable what actually allowed him to do it, I'm merely guessing it was the Hand and the Eye), he was able to shut down a Blackstone from a distance. Using this, he was able to capture several during the war. The Blackstones had enormous power once in Abaddon's control, because somehow he had learnt how to use them. With two Blackstones, Abaddon was able to scour the planet Fularis II, destroying all life on the surface, and all that was left was a barren rock. With three, he destroyed the star of the Tarantis system. Fortunately, Abaddon only ever captured three out of the six total.

When the Chaos fleets were defeated and driven back, the Blackstones were lost. The three still under Imperial control self-destructed - I speculate that Abaddon ordered them to, with his C'tan artifacts, though there's no real evidence on what did it - , and of the three controlled by Chaos, Abaddon successfully retreated with two back to the Eye of Terror. The last one was surrounded by the vessels of the Imperial Navy, bombarded, and destroyed.

(All of this is found in the Battlefleet Gothic rulebook)

More recently, in the 13th Black Crusade, the two surviving Blackstones were in the vanguard of Abaddon's fleet. This time, the Necrons sought direct conflict with Abaddon, in order to destroy them. The Necrons essentially failed in this. Eldrad Ulthran lead an Eldar strike force from Craftworld Ulthwé to recapture one, but failed and was taken by Slaanesh. After Cadia held out and Abaddon retreated back to the Eye of Terror, he took the two Blackstones with him.

They're still there now.

(This is from the Eye of Terror campaign)

As to where they came from originally - the Eldar call them Talismans of Vaul, and believe that their god Vaul forged them and gave it to the Eldar in order to fight the C'tan. It's also possible that the Eldar built them themselves in the distant past, or the Old Ones built them as weapons and gave them to the Eldar for the war.

To what they do - As mentioned, the Imperium used them as military bases. Their original purpose was to destroy the C'tan, using a powerful Warp cannon. However, I contest that you can't destroy a C'tan any other way. The Blackstones are specialised to be good at it, but any Warp-based power could do it, or you could simply destroy the Necrodermis and keep it from reforming.
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Offline ColonelLindsay

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2005, 10:21:20 PM »
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They are among the only things in the galaxy, if not THE only things in the galaxy, that can destroy a C'Tan
Dont forget about how the rest of them were destroyed. They were eaten.
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Offline farseer aldraden

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2005, 01:44:33 PM »
ok. eldrad ulthan was taken by slaneesh?(in essence died?) thats news to me.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2005, 05:20:12 PM »
And, of course, one has to invent lots of reasons why the Talismans of Vaul are so different from some of the other technologies of the eldar, hence the normal over-reliance on the hand-waving "Vaul created them"... ;)

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2005, 02:53:28 AM »
Yes, it is strange that the Eldar managed to create an anti-C'tan weapon, and then not manage to replicate it on cruisers and craftworlds, or even emplacements, on a limited scale.

And yes, Eldrad is trapped in a talisman by Slaanesh since the end of the EoT-campaign. See the aftermath-material for more information on this.

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Offline Irandrura

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2005, 03:16:14 AM »
Assuming, of course, that the Eldar made them. Saying Vaul made them doesn't ring true either, though. How about if the Old Ones made them? It's possible that they constructed them (The Blackstones just don't look Eldar, either), then gave them to the Eldar to use. Since they can obviously survive a long time on their own (as the Imperium found them just floating in deep space), maybe they were lost after the War, and the Eldar discovered them afterwards, assuming a link to their mythology - they are that kind of people.

I don't know, what do you think?
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Offline Xodiac

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2005, 08:19:36 AM »
The Eldar attitude towards others is quite Xenophobic and I think it unlikely that they'd go claiming someone else's technology as their own.

Now if some of the Od Ones are the Eldar gods.... well that covers it all nicely.
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Offline DanBZ

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2005, 12:42:18 PM »
i haven't found anything that goes into much detail about who or what the Old Ones really were, but they were supposed to have the power to create life at will.  I don't think many of the Eldar gods can do this---I would suspect only Isha.  But I have heard somewhere that the Eldar gods have NOT been in the universe since the origin of life, whereas the Old Ones have.  So I doubt that any Eldar Gods were Old Ones.
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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2005, 02:10:46 PM »
The necron codex is more or less the compendium of old one history.

Basically the Talismans of Vaul are the blackstone fortresses, designed to destroy the c'tan if they ever rose again.  They were made after the war in heaven and the old ones had been wiped out, at the height of the eldar empire.

The Deciver initiated the Gothic War after he awoke to rid the c'tan of the threat.  He conviced abbadon to go get them and showed him how to use them.  Abbadon went, and got 2.  The rest in imperial control were destroyed through unidentified means, most likely by either abbadon or the deciver.  The deciver was willing to let the talismans fall into the hands of chaos abbadon has no idea what their original design was for, unlike the eldar.  If the eldar got the talismans, the c'tan would have to be much more cautious.  This scheme was proved as eldrad ulthran, the most powerful eldar psyker failed to retake a blackstone and was killed by slaanesh.

It should be noted that the blackstones are unproven.  The blackstones were built at a time where there were no acitive c'tan, and blackstones have never been tested.  The only confirmed kills of c'tan in their true form have been by other c'tan.  The blackstones were built upon mere speculation that the massive warp cannons could harm c'tan, but it is ultimently speculation.  The Warp is never described as fatal or damaging to c'tan, only much hated and reviled(most likely because c'tan can't control it, unlike real-space).  Eldar confidence in such devices is also subject to bias, considereing how arogant eldar are to start off with.  If the old ones, who by all accounts had superior technology to the eldar in every way(ie. they manufactured the webway, which the eldar use), did not choose such a weapon to fight the c'tan with. 


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Offline Irandrura

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2005, 06:38:50 PM »
Quote
Basically the Talismans of Vaul are the blackstone fortresses, designed to destroy the c'tan if they ever rose again.  They were made after the war in heaven and the old ones had been wiped out, at the height of the eldar empire.

Disclaimer - these are assumptions. Reasonable ones, but still assumptions.

Quote
The Deciver initiated the Gothic War after he awoke to rid the c'tan of the threat.  He conviced abbadon to go get them and showed him how to use them.  Abbadon went, and got 2.  The rest in imperial control were destroyed through unidentified means, most likely by either abbadon or the deciver.  The deciver was willing to let the talismans fall into the hands of chaos abbadon has no idea what their original design was for, unlike the eldar.  If the eldar got the talismans, the c'tan would have to be much more cautious.  This scheme was proved as eldrad ulthran, the most powerful eldar psyker failed to retake a blackstone and was killed by slaanesh.

Again, assumptions regarding the Deceiver. I always assumed (or my interpretation is that) Abaddon discovered what the Blackstones are and what they did independently, possibly through divinations with his friend Zaraphiston, and went after them himself, seeing them as great weapons to be used against the Imperium. Let us remember that the Gothic War took place before the C'tan awakened - the Gothic War was from 139.M41 to 160.M41. This was years before the arrival of the Tyranids, and about a millenium before the 13th Black Crusade, so although the dates for the C'tan's awakening are not given, it doesn't seem possible that they were about then.

Then, when Abaddon procured the Hand of Darkness and Eye of Night, with which I conjecture he could control the Blackstones. He obviously wanted all of them, but he was defeated before that. I imagine he caused the three under Imperial control to self-destruct out of spite - he realised they were out of his reach, and wanted to make sure no one else had any.

We don't need to bring the C'tan into this.

About the Eldar - it just occurred to me, why are we so sure they know what they do? They might just consider the Blackstones sacred, or gifts from the gods, or something like that. Why didn't they take them from the Imperium, or why not just take control of them while they were uncontrolled? How did they lose them?

Quote
It should be noted that the blackstones are unproven.  The blackstones were built at a time where there were no acitive c'tan, and blackstones have never been tested.  The only confirmed kills of c'tan in their true form have been by other c'tan.  The blackstones were built upon mere speculation that the massive warp cannons could harm c'tan, but it is ultimently speculation.  The Warp is never described as fatal or damaging to c'tan, only much hated and reviled(most likely because c'tan can't control it, unlike real-space).  Eldar confidence in such devices is also subject to bias, considereing how arogant eldar are to start off with.  If the old ones, who by all accounts had superior technology to the eldar in every way(ie. they manufactured the webway, which the eldar use), did not choose such a weapon to fight the c'tan with. 

Your assumptions again. For all we know, the Blackstones were used to fight the C'tan, plus I tackled your 'Warp-only-annoys-C'tan-not-kills' in the Krork thread. It is, by the way, a bad assumption, impossible to prove right or wrong, but a faulty one nonetheless. So that whole paragraph is your opinion, which is fine, but at least don't present it as fact.
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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2005, 07:32:21 PM »
There's something wrong with my computer, I can't use quotes on this one.

First point:
Conceded. Alright, all that is known is that they were made before the fall.  Happy? Pg. 31 necron codex.

Second Point:
Pg.31 Necron codex:"It has even succeeded in locating the potent Talismans of Vaul, great weapons forged by the Eldar before the Fall to destroy the C'tan if they rose again.  Through subtle machinations, the Deciver has destroyed most of these awesome devices and placed the remainder beyond the reach of the Farseers for all time.  The war that was provoked to achieve this ravaned an entire sector of hundreds of wrolds and eliminated entire star systems in a fashion unseen since the War in Heaven.  That such limitless suffering has been caused is as nothing to the Deceiver; it would have destroyed the Gothic sector a thousand times over to acheive its goals."

*coughcoughcough*

Third Point:
Discuss this elsewhere.



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Offline Irandrura

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2005, 11:29:05 PM »
Quote
First point:
Conceded. Alright, all that is known is that they were made before the fall.  Happy? Pg. 31 necron codex.

I'm happy.

Quote
Second Point:
Pg.31 Necron codex:"It has even succeeded in locating the potent Talismans of Vaul, great weapons forged by the Eldar before the Fall to destroy the C'tan if they rose again.  Through subtle machinations, the Deciver has destroyed most of these awesome devices and placed the remainder beyond the reach of the Farseers for all time.  The war that was provoked to achieve this ravaned an entire sector of hundreds of wrolds and eliminated entire star systems in a fashion unseen since the War in Heaven.  That such limitless suffering has been caused is as nothing to the Deceiver; it would have destroyed the Gothic sector a thousand times over to acheive its goals."

*coughcoughcough*

Hmm... well, that clears that up, doesn't it? I can't really argue against that.

However, I still think that's somewhat dodgy. The C'tan still weren't awake then... I don't know. If I was writing the fluff, I never would have said that... ever. It's just GW not reading their own fluff properly when the write new stuff, 'rule of cool', as Kage would say. (Shoot me for using that phrase. Please.)

Quote
Third Point:
Discuss this elsewhere.

Agreed. I'll be going over to the Krork topic now...
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Offline Shav Aar

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2005, 05:58:09 AM »
Concerning the massive warp cannon to be used against C'tans, do you think that might be plausible that a C'tan can get "sucked" into the warp by the vortex such cannons can create ? A C'tan in the warp would be in a very bad situation...
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Offline Lonewolf

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2005, 09:20:24 AM »
Or a d- cannon or wraithcannon for that matter.


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Offline twilight_reaver

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2005, 12:49:00 PM »
That's more or less the most likley way a warp cannon is going to hurt a c'tan.  D-cannons and wraith cannons are, however, just too small to actually hurt a c'tan, just the necrodermis.


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Offline DanBZ

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2005, 01:40:18 PM »
Twilight Reaver is right.  It would take a very large warp disruption to kill a C'Tan.  D-Cannons and Wraithcannons are too small, so they don't disrupt the physical universe enough to actually kill a C'Tan.  There is a rule for C'Tan that says that if a C'Tan is Instant Killed with a Wraithcannon, it takes an automatic wound with no saves, which means it disrupts much of the C'Tan's power, but it isn't powerful enough to destroy it.  D-Cannons are bigger than Wraithcannons, but I don't think they are large enough to destroy a C'Tan.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: talismans of vaul
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2005, 02:03:34 PM »
The D-cannon is also a lot less focused, which is why it does not have the special rule the wraithcannon has, I believe. (me interpreting fluff in rules).
The Talisman would just be like a thousand D-cannons, but focused. Ouch.

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