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Author Topic: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats  (Read 9095 times)

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Offline Lomendil

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Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« on: July 29, 2004, 08:30:51 PM »
I just stole this from where I saw it quoted on Portent.net. It's Jervis Johnson talking about the Squats, it offers interesting insights into why the Squats disappeared and what might replace them.


"I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist

Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.

First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantaties that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.

No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realised what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regreted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.

Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.

Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendancy to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.

In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based ont he Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more lilely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain predudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...

The second point I'd like to make is about 'old moulds'. In the past, Mail Order in the UK and US used to be the place that we kept all of the retired moulds for Citadel Miniatures, and we used to offer a service where you could order any Citadel Mniature ever made from MO. However, there are now so many of these 'back catalogue' miniatures that it is simply impossible to keep all of the old moulds in Mail Order and offer this service. Instead, we pick and choose which back catalogue miniatures are kept available. At present we're still struggling to produce special catalogues for these ranges (in the US there is the 'Phone Book' catalogue with everything in it, while the UK has special 'collectors guides' that are themed round a race). Once we've ironed out the kinks in the way we deal with the range of collectors models we want to keep permenantly available, the plan is to offer up other parts of the back catalogue for limited periods of time. In effect this will divide the back catalogue into three parts: a range of classic models that are permenantly available, a range of classic models we dip into and bring out for a limited release, and a range of retired models that will no longer be sold either because we've decided that they are embarrassingly bad, or because we are no longer allowed to sell them due to licencing agreement changes. So far we're still slowly working on deciding which classic models we want to keep permenantly available, and its going to take several years to work through just those. The old Squat range is most likely to end up as retired models, I have to say, though there is a good chance that the Squat war engines they could simply into the limited release classic range. Once again, only time will tell...

I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with exisiting army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army.

Best regards,

Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
"
« Last Edit: July 29, 2004, 08:32:16 PM by Lomendil »

Offline Daemonknight

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2004, 08:59:22 PM »
That sound just about right, Jervis is a great guy that can relate to us players (reason for why his leadership in Specialist games is gaining popularity) still there are loose ends about whether the demriug will become a full fledge army (it lost out to Tau and Necrons the last time) or perhaps a small group for Ordo Xeno as rumors stated, but it seems that any developement will have to wait until after the 4th edition.
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Offline CorpseLight

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2004, 01:09:25 PM »
To be honest, I hated the Squat fluff, Jervis is right, it made them very comical and that didnt appeal to me, I really like the more gritty, darker direction they're taking 40k in.

That said, I love the Dwarfs in Fantasy, and always have, so I would love to see these "Demiurg" come out as a race for 40k, providing they take the Dwarf "template" from fantasy and give it a darker feel.

Offline Kanzen

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2004, 12:38:25 AM »
Greetings.

Jervis, a true gamer.
I have no problems with what is quoted here. And I am a serious Squat fan. It's a very rational statement, which holds respect for the 'listener's/reader's' intelligence. I guess that's why I have always liked reading what he has written.

At least here in the U.S. (of the Squat fans I know), it was the bikers and detachment from being 'fantasy Dwarfs in space' that made them popular. Especially since the most popular bikers were the heavy weapons teams. Just think Marine Attack bike squadrons as troop choices and fast attack choices. With a larger choice of heavy weapons for the attack bikes. Then of course there were the 8-'man' squads where 7 of them could be armed with Heavy Bolters. Another favorite.

I loved the Squat fluff, because it was unique. The majority of race in 40K are simply Warhammer fantasy in space. The fact they used Dwarfs without them actually being Dwarfs in space is what I liked.
I could go into a rant into what could/should have been done, I almost did. But I won't. That's for whole new post of it's own.

Thanks Lomendil.
It made for an excellent read.



Offline Greggor Sin, the Jolly

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #4 on: August 4, 2004, 02:32:07 PM »
I've only began playing about a year ago, and still don't have an army.  But, I've read up tons of fluff on WH40k, with Squats being mentioned once or twice by the nostalgiac player (like Chaos Dwarves in Fantasy... but they're being brought bak!).

Now, I had no idea who Jervis was until today - and he sounds totally "down to earth", which some GW workers can't seem to understand.  Usually they'd start (and end) something like that with "I'm not allowed to say at the moment".  Man, he's awesome!

As for models, I've never seen them.  Nor have I seen rules.  I plan on going old-school searching on E-Bay, but I doubt that I'll see much.

Now, as for converting Fantasy races to WH40k: I'd love to see the Demi-Urg appear as some sort of Bad-Arse Dark Futuristic Dwarf Race - I play Dwarves in Fantasy, and currently love the theme they possess.  So why not bring that race into 40k?  It'd be VERY different fluff-wise, considering the GRAND ALLIANCE between the Emperor and Dwarves, where here it'd probably be Tau and Demi-Urg (I've heard that Tau recruit/convert many races, with Demi-Urg among them).

Anyway, I hope they are TRUE-GRIT Dwarves (ie, Warriors, Honor, Vehicles/Inventions...)!
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Offline Kanzen

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #5 on: August 6, 2004, 12:53:47 PM »
Greetings.

@Emperor Gregorius:
If you like...
Original Squat fluff as printed in White Dwarf 111:
http://www.criticalhit.co.uk/w40krp/WD111_Squats.shtml

Pics of some of the original Squat metal minis:
Listed under Space Dwarfs
http://www.solegends.com/citrt/
If look under the Citadel catalog/link to the left, you can find other pics of the Squats. You just have to look through the 'catalog' links.

Offline Dux Aurelius Elysius

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #6 on: August 9, 2004, 07:58:26 PM »
2nd ed weapons were crazy :D


Look at me, my weapon is twice my size and four times my weight, YET STILL I put my hand on my hips!
ALTERNATIVELY, for number 4
Oh, there's something in my pocket, oh, wht could this be ... never new I had ... WHERE  THE HELL DID THAT BLOODY BIG GUN SPRING FROM???


But that does make sense about Squats, sometimes I wonder if Jervis is the last sane person in a place of power in GW ::)
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Offline Greggor Sin, the Jolly

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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2004, 03:51:06 PM »
I'm gonna leap into guessing here - those are old Rogue Trader models, right?  From First E Warhammer 40k?  Before it was called 40k, right?

Or am I way off?

Anyway, those Space Dwarves are kick arse!

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Offline Lomendil

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2004, 11:58:56 PM »
They are old IG, not Space Dwarves. =)

BTW, The reason they can carry the weapons so easily is because the Rogue Trader fluff had the Imperium as being a bit more high-tech than it is now, and all their heavy weapons tended to be fitted with 'suspensors'. Suspensors are little anti-grav devices that effectively make the weapon weigh less. The Imperium used to have all kinds of cool stuff like that back then, including jetbikes and hover-tanks.


Offline Archon_Yggdrisil

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2004, 03:06:12 AM »
Personally, I think that while GW did take the squats in the wrong direction, there was definately something there for them.

They had this kind of ruggedness that no other army had. They should have never had their own army, but if they were squads in IG armies or something, they would have flourished.

I imagine them now as like...cool nomad tinkering biker dudes. Not badass, but real laid back, cool...roaming from outpost to outpost, doing odd jobs.

A cool idea...allow them to be Ordo Xenos henchman, and having one lets you have a VDR design, up to 200pts or so, without need for consent. Just a thought....

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Offline Captain F. Bunny

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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2004, 04:17:53 AM »
Quote
I imagine them now as like...cool nomad tinkering biker dudes. Not badass, but real laid back, cool...roaming from outpost to outpost, doing odd jobs

soundz like da freebootaz. , or summat... seriously. Well at least thats how I saw orks, except a little more crazy.
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Re: Jervis Johnson on the fate of the Squats
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2004, 12:35:34 PM »
I would like to see the squats come back as well, and I wouldn't mind seeing them changed.  Here's one of the ideas that I've come accross in looking up info on them.

The Demiurg consider themselves the last survivers of a dying race that once controlled more wealth then the imperium.  While strongly allied to the Emporer's government, many segments of the imperium wanted the alliance ended, as they felt the Squats where too far from the human norm geneticlly.  When the tyrannid invasion came to the homeworlds the squats sent for and expected, even relied on, imperial aid.  Unfortunately almost all the communications where 'lost' or 'misunderstood', and so the aid never came.   It had been decieded that by the anti-squat elements in the empire of man that a tyrannid invasion was the perfect blameless solution to their problem.  The hive fleets would strip the worlds of life, but leave the bountiful minerals compeltely alone. 

The resulting squat survivors where the roving Gnomen space caravans, close cousins to the original squats, and those few squats surving their people abroad, either in the IG, or as the Demiurg Mobile Armored Companies. 

This would let GW move in both directions.  The Armored Companies could take the darker tone of a dwindling race pushed to the limit, and the Roamin' Gnomin Space caravans could make 'silly dwarves' in a more plausible way as a Gnome-like race.   
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