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Offline magenb

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Making 8th ed more tactical
« on: October 3, 2017, 12:46:55 AM »
So some people have been feeling like 8th ed rule set is like the introduction to wargaming compared to the base rules from previous editions. So they have been going back to older editions. So this is basically just an idea's thread to get more strategy into the game. Yes this will slow it down some, but hey some people like fast games of chess, other like to take their time ;)



Deploying.
Whoever has the highest unit squad count deploys first, 1 squad at a time, transports are a separate squad.

Who goes first, is determined at the start of each round by both players rolling a D6+/-bonus. Since co-ordinating larger armies takes more effort. The winner (lowest) decides if they go first or not.

Bonus yet to be defined so spit balling ideas.
1) both sides add the total number of units to their dice rolls - if a squad has been wiped out, it no longer counts.
2) fixed bonus, however possible racial bonuses?
3) units still in transports to not add to the unit tally after Round 1


Each squad is activated once per round, with players alternating activations.
NOTE: due to the activation process, HQ’s might need to go back to being independent characters, again, so they can join squads. I might become too easy to pick them off.
Example of a game round:
Player 1 has two Squads, 1 unit of DA's and 1 of Scorpions.
Player 2 has 1 unit of tac marines.

Player 1 gets to go first this round.
P1 activates DA, move shoots, etc
Player 2 then gets to activate Tac Marines, moves, shoots etc.
Player 1 then activates scorpions, moves, charge, etc.
End of round 1

Each Squad will go through all their phases in one activation (again this seems to make more sense with IC’s joining squads again)
EG: Player 1 unit of DA’s moves, shoot, charge assault.

NOTE: this makes things like drop pods become risky in that the unit drops gets out and then could be shot. It could also be used in an attempt to delay something else being shot.



Cover: Makes you harder to hit, instead of a + to armour save, it is a minus to hit at the same value, IE: +2 cover is a -2 to hit modifier.
NOTE: Need to make adjustments for some wargear/tactics/special rules floating around. Might need to max it out at -2 or something.

Units that have moved more than 10" in the current game turn are -1 to hit. NOTE: CURRENT game turn, selecting when you activate your unit matters!
This would also make hitting units that are running, using jump packs etc, harder to hit.
Flyers would just get a standard -1 to hit all the time same as now, since they always move.




Tanks:
Firing arcs back in.
Toughness(?) vales for different positions, front, side rear.

Re-visit damage system - just ideas for the moment.
Units shooting at vehicles can targets specific things, wheels, weapons, etc, but are -1 to hit.
Damage system to include destroying weapons? Maybe give the option to negate 1-2 wounds to have a weapon die, but only if it is visible from the enemy. For example a predator with side mounted lascannons could only have 1 be destroyed as the unit of fire dragons, was shooting it on the side armour.
Damage system to include ability to immobilise and slow the tank - such as causing coolant lines to leak, damage to the wheels/tracks breaking the engine, etc.
                        - immobilise would be harder to make happen on skimmers, but when it does it crashes.


Assaults:
Bring back Initiative, however:
Charging unit strikes first if the unit they are charging fires overwatch. If the unit being charged does not fire overwatch then it is worked out at Initiative.

Units can still leave combat at will, however, assault specialist units (assault squads, scorpions, etc) get 1 free attack per model against the fleeing unit. This attack could not be made with unwieldy weapons like power fists.

Assault and game round.
Either player may select their unit currently engaged in close combat, due to the alternating turns, you may wish to pull them out of CC before the high initiative unit gets to swing at them again, if you control the high init squad, you may want to hold off destroying the currently engaged unit, until your opponent shoots at something else or you may want to crush them straight away and be left standing triumphantly over a pile of enemies... until their friends decide to shoot them lol.


Tanks and assaults.
Tanks can not make melee attacks, however they can fire defensive weapons (S4 weapons or less, no auto hit weapons), but hit on rolls of 6.
Open topped tanks - each model on board may make one attack with any weapon at normal initiative level even if the tank changed, they were bracing for impact. During normal combat they are trying to stay in the tank.


Charging tank into infantry    - Tank makes a roll for every model in the charged unit, if it charges a 5 man squad, then 5D6 to hit rolls.
            - Strength is based on the total distance travelled in that turn (complete Inches only) up to a max of the tanks toughness.  +1 per complete inch, eg: travelled 6.95" so S6 hits.
            - AP is based on distance travelled as well -1 for every 4 complete inches eg: travelled 8.5" so -2 AP.

Charging Tank into Tank    - 1 auto hit - Damage is based on distance travelled, D3 for every 3 complete inches travelled - 7.5 inches would be 2D3 damage
            - AP is the same as charging a unit.
            - If the target being rammed is equal to or greater than the charging tanks toughness, then the charging tank also takes the hit.
            - No guts, not glory charge - when declared, the charging tank may hit at the full strength for the distance travelled, eg: 12.5 move would be a S12 hit at -3 AP doing 4D3 damage.

When tank is surrounded by infantry    - May attempt to leave buy going full throttle. Can only move straight ahead or in reverse, no turning. Tank moves at half its normal distance + D6 inches. EG: if the tank would normal move 10" then it may move upto 5+D6
               - For each model with a more than half its base infront of the front/rear hull, they take 1 autohit at 0 AP. The strength of the hit, is the difference between the Toughness (based on the T of the hull making contact) of the two models + 1. For example T7 front armour of the tank (moving forward) vs T4 infantry would be a S4 hit. T6 rear armour (reversing) vs T4 infantry is S3 hits.
               - Infantry can opt to either give chase or strike lash out.
                  Chase: Infantry normal move distance + D6, if it is equal to or greater than the tanks move, then the tank is still surrounded. For the purposes of resolving combat, it will be as if the two did not move, so it does not count as charging etc.
                  Strike: Each model gets to take a single attack with any melee weapon - this happens before the tank leaves, so it autohits can only happen if it makes it out alive.
                  Shoot: may fire half the number of normal shots (min 1 shot, rounded down for weapons with dice rolls) at the front/rear armour, which ever ends up facing them (if it reverses, then they shoot front armour, if it goes forward shots are rear). However the squad doing the shooting also counts as having moved, so heavy weapons are -1 to hit.


Skimmers:
Follow most of the Same rules as above, except they generate AP at -1 for every 3 inches moved, but damage is D3 for every 4 inches
When skimmers leave combat they count as if they were infantry leaving combat.


Monstrous Creatures, titans etc
When they leave combat, the assault squad gets 1 free attack with any weapon, this is to represent how slowly something that large moves.






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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #1 on: October 3, 2017, 01:55:20 AM »
I think you've fallen into the usual trap that people do when they try to make the game "more tactical."  They go for more complicated.  A complex system does not mean it is more tactical.

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Offline magenb

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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #2 on: October 3, 2017, 04:08:24 PM »
I think you've fallen into the usual trap that people do when they try to make the game "more tactical."  They go for more complicated.  A complex system does not mean it is more tactical.

You can not have one without the other but yes you can go over the top. The tank charging distance is probably over the top, but makes more sense than spring loaded boxing gloves they have now ;)


Firing arcs and weak points, will restore some of the old flavour straight away.

Altinating actions opens up a world of options and makes the game more like real time combat, with things actually moving around as your moving. It also breaks alpha strikes, no more just standing around and taking it.

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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #3 on: October 4, 2017, 08:35:11 AM »
You're trying to add a second edition level of detail to very simplified set of rules.  That doesn't work at all well.  The rules proposed above make the game too complex, adding unnecessary layers of rules, for little benefit in enhancing the quality of the game.

Alternate activation and rolling off to decides who goes first each turn are mechanics from Epic Space Marine.  They work very well in that game, but for them to be appropriate for 40K there would need to be a rethink of the core rules of movement, shooting, and assault.  I don't think that you could just tag Epic mechanics to 40K rules and have them work without making other changes.
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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #4 on: October 4, 2017, 08:16:11 PM »
Alternate activation and rolling off to decides who goes first each turn are mechanics from Epic Space Marine.  They work very well in that game, but for them to be appropriate for 40K there would need to be a rethink of the core rules of movement, shooting, and assault.  I don't think that you could just tag Epic mechanics to 40K rules and have them work without making other changes.

Didn't know they used it for Epic. The alternative squad activation and ability to take first activation per round is from warzone. The base mechanics are the same and can be played on a similar scale, they just don't have LoW style tanks.


Cover being a minus to hit, might be too much of a penalty for tanks that degrade. Will have to thing about this some more, maybe give them back relentless.


I think as a first play test I'll be putting the firing arcs back in, rear armour being 2 T points lower, alternating squads and bringing back independent characters for normal sized HQ's such as Autarchs.

Rear armour - T2 reduction is only for tanks that have had this in the passed, such as rhino based chassis, dreadnaughts, ghost arks etc. Assaults will be back against the rear armour, except for dread's/walkers which will remain the front armour.

Mech that had the same value all round previously like war walkers and Venom's will not suffer from a rear armour value reduction.

Given the new Strenth v Toughness rule, T7 tanks are only easier to wound for S5-7 and a quirk for S3 weapons, no real benefit for S8-9 weapons to flanking.T8 tanks will suffer the most, from the rear armour reduction.


Expected impacts:
Tanks will need to think about how they are facing again, however since they can split fire any way, a few shots may go at a sub-optimal target.

Fliers will be harder to use as they may not be able to move into optimal firing positions. This is probably more realistic for a high speed jet given a small area of operation.




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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #5 on: October 4, 2017, 10:11:44 PM »
Epic, Space Marine in the day, was a very tactical game. Not only did armies alternate actions in each phase you also had layers of orders. First Fire fired first, as it says on the tin, then advance then charge. Not only did you need to think ahead of what each unit was to do you'd also have to do it partially in the blind. No changing orders once the turn was announced.

Sometimes people are playing the wrong game. Such as, IMO, if you want Titans and Knights with Flyers and all the other jazz - you should be looking more towards Epic. It's built for it rather than thrown in.
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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #6 on: October 4, 2017, 10:36:19 PM »
So, if you're making vehicles dramatically worse, are you planning to drop the points costs on all vehicles?




Sometimes people are playing the wrong game. Such as, IMO, if you want Titans and Knights with Flyers and all the other jazz - you should be looking more towards Epic. It's built for it rather than thrown in.

Hard to do, when you can't buy the models or rules.
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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #7 on: October 5, 2017, 06:33:56 AM »
It's not so hard.  There are plenty of revised versions of Epic rules, which are overseen by the Epic community, and are available for free, as well as proxies and ebay.

magenb: I still think that the level of detail that you're looking to bring back to the game is problematic with this scale.  What you're proposing is more suited to a skirmish game, which comprises infantry and doesn't have the vehicles, superheavies, and flyers.  In essence, if you're looking to produce a more in-depth experience, I'd recommend scaling down the units types available for the game.

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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #8 on: October 5, 2017, 07:16:18 AM »
So, if you're making vehicles dramatically worse, are you planning to drop the points costs on all vehicles?

I'm not tinkering with points right now. I suspect movment speeds (combat, cruising) might need to be brought back in, so they don't suffer the BS hit for moving short distances. Since the tank gets to move and shoot all the in same activation phase, it is still possible to focus fire into something, but it might risk exposing its rear end. It will cause issue for things that are normally used to split fire 360 lol.





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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #9 on: October 5, 2017, 10:59:19 AM »
It's not so hard.  There are plenty of revised versions of Epic rules, which are overseen by the Epic community, and are available for free, as well as proxies and ebay.


No one is going to want to go through the hassle of doing that, when they can just use the 40k models they already have. I already can't get people to play Mordheim and Necromunda, and those are way easier games to get into.


I'm not tinkering with points right now. I suspect movment speeds (combat, cruising) might need to be brought back in, so they don't suffer the BS hit for moving short distances. Since the tank gets to move and shoot all the in same activation phase, it is still possible to focus fire into something, but it might risk exposing its rear end. It will cause issue for things that are normally used to split fire 360 lol.


Good idea to keep an eye on points, as units points are set based on the rules as they are for 8th. changing core mechanics will make break how some units function.

I also think that if you want to make 40k into an alternative activation game, you really need to redesign the core rules from the ground up. The two games I play with alternative activations (Bolt Action and Test of Honour), play utterly differently then 40k.
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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #10 on: October 5, 2017, 11:16:27 AM »
No one is going to want to go through the hassle of doing that, when they can just use the 40k models they already have. I already can't get people to play Mordheim and Necromunda, and those are way easier games to get into.

Then they shouldn't. The alternative is for people who want the different experience in the same universe. Perhaps your difficulty with Mord and Necro is that some want tanks, and titans, and other huge death machines rather than gangs giving each other a bit of a niggle?
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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #11 on: October 5, 2017, 02:54:53 PM »
The lack of support for Epic is sad, it truely is a very good game. It has rules that are fairly simple but allow for a lot of tactical play.

Flanking really means something in epic. Units that are outflanked die pretty quickly for example plus warmachines and aircraft work well. Its always been one of my bugbears that 40k aircraft seem to hover about; surely if they are supersonic they cross the table in seconds!

Remissing aside you make some good points.

Unit by unit activation is a good system. You can help characters stay as they are if activating a character also activated a single unit with 3" "With me soldiers!" Some leader role characters could even activate more units together to represent their control of the battle.

One rule you can steal from Epic is to retain the initiative (on a roll of 2+) to activate a second unit in a row.


The other rule to steal is flanking a unit (drawing a line through it between two attacking units in epic) puts a negative save modifer in place and further morale penalties.

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Offline magenb

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Re: Making 8th ed more tactical
« Reply #12 on: October 5, 2017, 05:29:50 PM »
Unit by unit activation is a good system. You can help characters stay as they are if activating a character also activated a single unit with 3" "With me soldiers!" Some leader role characters could even activate more units together to represent their control of the battle.

Actually I like that idea, it removes the cheese with IC's and mixing up special rules. Although being able to activate multiple squads my be overpowering as a run of the mill thing. It might work as an IG order or a command point usage, if you desperately need to kill something before it activates.




Good idea to keep an eye on points, as units points are set based on the rules as they are for 8th. changing core mechanics will make break how some units function.

I also think that if you want to make 40k into an alternative activation game, you really need to redesign the core rules from the ground up.

Got any idea's on what units you think it will break? Or any of the core rule you think will not work?


initial play testing will be CWE vs Standard Space Marines, since marines and their rhino chassis will be one of the hardest hit by the changes.
« Last Edit: October 5, 2017, 05:53:29 PM by magenb »

 


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