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Offline Colonel_Kex

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The last two primarchs.
« on: March 18, 2010, 02:54:36 PM »
Is there any information that the emperor even found the last two primarchs? i haven't found even a scrap of information about them or their legions anywhere!

Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2010, 03:51:10 PM »
I'm surprised this isn't in the stickies, it comes up often enough. After a quick search I found these threads on the subject:

Dan Abnett reveals missing Primarch?

the Two Missing Primarchs

The two missing Space Marine legions

Lost First Founding Legions

Hope those helps.

Please note that all the threads are old and it is against forum rules to resurrect such threads.

Offline Gornon

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2010, 05:48:17 PM »
I like to think that there is no conspiracy theory, that the two missing Primarchs are there for the players to make up their own Chapter and Primarch.
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Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2010, 06:15:09 PM »
But from an in-universe perspective you can't use that as an explanation though.

My personal favourite is that the legions were destroyed during the Great Crusade or Horus Heresy, but unlike the surviving traitor Legions there is no need for the Imperium to keep any records of them. If they were destroyed as stout defenders of humanity it would be pretty bad PR if the fact that two of the Emperor's Legions were annihilated and if they died as traitors the tragedy and corruption can be hidden simply by removing them from history. The reason that the traitor Legions remains as Excommunicate Traitoris and simply not removed from history is that they still pose a threat and information concerning them is necessary for military intelligence.

I vaguely remember Irandrura having a theory that the missing Primarchs were used for genetic experiments by the Emperor to try and re-establish the Primarch Project. That is also an interesting theory although one wonders were the actual Legions ended up.

EDIT: Ah, used the search function again and found one post (last paragraphs) that contains some of it, hope you don't mind Irandrura. ;)
« Last Edit: March 18, 2010, 06:16:16 PM by Benis »

Offline Gornon

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2010, 06:51:00 PM »
Quote
But from an in-universe perspective you can't use that as an explanation though.

Is there any new info in the Heresy books or elsewhere?  I have not read that series.  As far as I know is the only hint we have of the missing Legions is vague references to them being lost to time and that one chart listing all the Legions that has "Data Classified' or something similar written over the two mission Legions.
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Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2010, 06:55:36 PM »
Other than Horus' vision in Hrous Rising which Irandrura alludes to in the post  I linked to I cannot remember any other specific mentioning with any relevance for the missing Primarchs/Legions.

Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2010, 08:11:04 PM »
Why is it not acceptable to say that because of the aging technology and how much it sucks within the Imperium, that it's possible that someone deleted the entries about them, or they had a data failure, or were removed for whatever reason?
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Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2010, 08:24:28 PM »
That still doesn't explain what actually happened them though. You also have the problem that all the First Founding chapters probably had records as well (not to mention other organisations), seems a bit complicated that they all lost the relevant data.

Offline Gornon

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2010, 09:11:26 PM »
That still doesn't explain what actually happened them though. You also have the problem that all the First Founding chapters probably had records as well (not to mention other organisations), seems a bit complicated that they all lost the relevant data.

They are more or less like Cypher, Farsight, and other 40k mysteries. We can all come up with our own views on what happened to them.  Unless GW tells us, we won't know for sure.  We can shoot theories around here and pick apart them, but that's about it.

I like to think that the 'Data Missing', 'Data Removed', ect. is just a localized problem.  We don't know whose 'library' we are looking at, how reliable it is, and where it is located.  I like to think that one Missings Legion is Traitor and the other is Loyalist and the actual 40k Characters know who they are.  If I asked, say, Calgar who the Missing Legions are and showed him the chart, he would reply something like "The Sons of Terra are on the East Fringe with us, serving with honor.  The Star Strikers are traitors.  Latest intel puts them in the Eye."
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Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2010, 09:24:06 PM »
They are more or less like Cypher, Farsight, and other 40k mysteries. We can all come up with our own views on what happened to them.  Unless GW tells us, we won't know for sure.  We can shoot theories around here and pick apart them, but that's about it.

Well that is one of the main points of the board you moderate. ;)

I like to think that the 'Data Missing', 'Data Removed', ect. is just a localized problem.  We don't know whose 'library' we are looking at, how reliable it is, and where it is located.

Yes, that is a good solution if you stick with the original idea of two slots left open for players to make their own First Founding Legion. But, you do have the problem that it isn't merely a case of missed records on all the First Founding lists, you also lack any sort of information about what these two Legions and Primarchs did during the Great Crusade and Horus Heresy. How did they interact within the brotherhood of Primarch where were the legions deployed when Horus rebelled etc. It is a convenient solution but it requires that we (as the spectators) are blinded toevery reference and interaction of the Primarchs/Legions... It is possibly also in conflict with Horus' vision and the information his reaction and emotions give.

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2010, 10:12:19 PM »
It is also possible that their crimes against humanity were far worse than Horus or because they were smaller in scale, it was possible for the Imperium to conceal their deeds (hence the deletion from records), or that they want to be hidden and deleted themselves or what have you.
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Offline Gornon

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2010, 10:23:30 PM »
Quote
Well that is one of the main points of the board you moderate. (Image removed from quote.)

I thought the point of this board was so that everyone can praise and adore me like the god I am?


Anyways, my theory is not rooted in pure background, I like it because it gives players some more creative freedom in background, painting, and storytelling.  More or less, I like it because it gives power to the players.  Not that I think many players have ever taken up the offer.
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Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2010, 04:12:06 AM »
Not that I think many players have ever taken up the offer.

It's probably due to the risk of  Mary Sue. But we have had a couple of attempts at it here on 40konline over the years, Sir_Godspeed's is one of the most recent ones, and it avoids the Mary Sue quite well in my opinion.

It is also possible that their crimes against humanity were far worse than Horus or because they were smaller in scale, it was possible for the Imperium to conceal their deeds (hence the deletion from records), or that they want to be hidden and deleted themselves or what have you.

That works equally well, the key point being that it was possible to delete their records, i.e. a unified decision carried out by all the different organisations of the Imperium.

Offline Bumbles

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2010, 05:13:14 AM »
If I asked, say, Calgar who the Missing Legions are and showed him the chart, he would reply something like "The Sons of Terra are on the East Fringe with us, serving with honor.  The Star Strikers are traitors.  Latest intel puts them in the Eye."
No he wouldn't.
He'd say "how do you have this map? Who are you? What do you want?" and then possible have you tortured to death just to make sure that you're not a secret traitor ;)


I rather like the idea that they're Mal-thingame and Sigmar from WF.

Offline Benis

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2010, 05:24:16 AM »
I rather like the idea that they're Mal-thingame and Sigmar from WF.

That's one of the ideas that I find particularly unwanted, I prefer for the two universes to be separate.

Offline Tunavul

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2010, 05:59:07 AM »
 Maybe, the two missing Legions are on some super secret missions and the Imperium powers that be dont want anyone to stumble on there info in the "public record?"      :o

Offline IainC

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2010, 06:05:44 AM »
There are plenty of statements in various sources that the Emperor was reunited with all the Primarchs at one point. The two missing ones were scrubbed from the records. At no point was Sigmar ever a Primarch he has always been born a normal human in every incarnation of the lore.
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Offline Dionysus

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2010, 07:31:26 AM »
Weird thing happens in one of the heresy books. Horus has a vision.  In his vision he is taken to the lab where the primarchs were grown.  He bumps into one, cracking the glass and killing the occupant.

I like the fantasy theory.  After all WHF is just a world that hasn't been reclaimed yet.  Just imagine if the nids showed up O.O
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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2010, 07:39:29 AM »
Good point Iain, generally i would say that its impossible to speculate who the missing primarchs were, and the names of their respective Crusade legions. Nothing has ever really hinted unto their identity, i would say however that people theory's as to why they are deleted from Imperial records may be hitting the nail on the head, but its still difficult to say with any certainty! It could be that time erased the records or they were buried under imperial information detritus, ten thousand years is enough time for the records to erode without deliberation or conspiracy.     
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Offline IainC

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Re: The last two primarchs.
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2010, 08:19:05 AM »
Weird thing happens in one of the heresy books. Horus has a vision.  In his vision he is taken to the lab where the primarchs were grown.  He bumps into one, cracking the glass and killing the occupant.
He's being shown a vision by (agents of?) the gods of Chaos. I wouldn't take that as being a solid source for anything.

I like the fantasy theory.  After all WHF is just a world that hasn't been reclaimed yet.
No it isn't. It is in a separate universe and always has been. Some things were common to both (Old ones, Chaos etc) but the two universes are distinct and do not overlap.

Good point Iain, generally i would say that its impossible to speculate who the missing primarchs were, and the names of their respective Crusade legions. Nothing has ever really hinted unto their identity, i would say however that people theory's as to why they are deleted from Imperial records may be hitting the nail on the head, but its still difficult to say with any certainty! It could be that time erased the records or they were buried under imperial information detritus, ten thousand years is enough time for the records to erode without deliberation or conspiracy.     

The actual real world reason as to why they've never been hinted at is to leave room for fans of the background to make their own first founding chapters (on either side of the Heresy). The fluff reason is [redacted by order of the Holy Inquisition of Terra] which, due to the [redacted by order of the Holy Inquisition of Terra] and the [redacted by order of the Holy Inquisition of Terra] was a principle cause of the [redacted by order of the Holy Inquisition of Terra]. You have a society where knowledge of something can be heresy, curiosity is actively discouraged under pain of.. well pain, information is guarded to an extreme degree and where ignorance is marketed as a virtue through heavy religious conditioning. Removing all official records of something that would be already subject to strict OPSEC would be a snap under those conditions.
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