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Author Topic: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?  (Read 7139 times)

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Offline celestial.dragon

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Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« on: June 5, 2006, 01:17:00 AM »
I've had this conversation/argument with a friend a few times, and I'm not sure what to think.

The main argument I keep on hearing is that The Deceiver is The Laughing God in disguise, and he controls the harlequins (and I'm guessing The Black Library too). Supposedly the Necron codex even has a poem, or something, about The Deceiver ruling over the harlequins. Online I've read that many justify this theory with the similarity between the stories of how The Laughing God, and the Deceiver both tricked the C'Tan into eating each other.

At the same time there are many stories that tell of how The Laughing God can renter the Warp, and has even appear before different eldar in disguise. Although the people at my store discredit these stories saying that "These are the stories as told by the eldar and harlequins themselves.".

Yet I'd imagine that even if the stories are not reliable Khaine's avatars would at least say something about it.

Khaine: "Um...I might be in bad shape, but I'm pretty sure that I did not see that guy in our pantheon."

What do you guys think? Has this board come to an agreement on this topic before?

Thanks.
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Offline Bumbles

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #1 on: June 5, 2006, 01:49:25 AM »
No.
For a very very very simple reason.
The Laughing God is a Warp Entity.
The Deceiver is a C'Tan.
A C'Tan cannot enter the Warp.
So the Deceiver is not the Laughing God.

The texts in the Necron Codex are confusing, possibly intentionally. The Decieiver AND Craogorach tricked the Necrons into eating each other. Possibly Craogorach pretended to be the Deciever. The problem boils down to the use of similar names/wording when talking about the Laughing God and the Deciever.

Offline Hoomberdang

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #2 on: June 5, 2006, 02:05:57 AM »
I certainly hope not, the Harlequins wouldn't be nearly as cool if that were so.

The Necrons did seem to be responsible for everything in the 40k universe for a while but GW seems to have toned that down a bit of late, I'm hoping they will fix up what damage they have done to the Eldar fluff with the new Codex.

Offline Raziel Unleashed

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #3 on: June 5, 2006, 04:53:46 AM »
Yeah, C'Tans are enemies of the Warp, and Cegorach is exactly the opposite.
It's wierd how the opposites attract, but in a GW game fishes are a shooty army...  ::) :D ;D
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Offline Kritik

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #4 on: June 5, 2006, 05:00:43 AM »
NO NO NO NO NO!

It's late, so I'll give you a clear reason why: C'tan can't touch the warp, they are physcial beings trapped in the physical world. The C'tan cannot possibly contact the Eldar as such because THEY CAN'T TOUCH THE WARP!
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Offline Raziel Unleashed

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #5 on: June 5, 2006, 05:03:11 AM »
Please, chill...
Their shapes may look similiar but they're just the opposite, do not mistake them.
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Offline celestial.dragon

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #6 on: June 5, 2006, 05:12:55 AM »
This is pretty much what I wanted to hear. I'd hate myself if the harlequins were actually trying to destroy the eldar, instead of trying to save them.

I knew that the C'tan can't touch the warp. It's just that everyone here justifies the connection between them by pointing at the similar C'tan cannibalism stories, and the fact that the harlequins could indeed, or at least possibly, rewrite parts of the eldar history to conceal The Deceiver.
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #7 on: June 5, 2006, 06:55:10 AM »
As expected, there's been some pretty vehement denial of any Deceiver/Cegorach link. That's fair enough, as the two are clearly not the same.

Still, you have to consider why the two would be linked. Firstly, let us remember that we know the Necron War almost entirely from myth. Did Cegorach really trick the Outsider into consuming other C'tan?

Probably not. The Eldar race was in its infant stages, and it's highly unlikely that they would have affected the Warp to that degree. The calmer nature of the Warp at that time, in essence making it more 'suggestible', might have made it easier for Eldar deities to emerge, but it still remains very improbable that Eldar gods would have arisen, and arisen strong enough to fight the C'tan and win.

The Eldar of the Necron War period had very little technology, let us remember. As Inquisitor Horst explained - 'They fought with swords, spears and their own twisted version of faith.' Mind you, Horst was retelling the Eldar myth, which is itself unreliable. (And says some very questionable things in the same passage - notably the creation of Wraithguard, which rely upon non-existent spirit stone technology, and Necron War-era Necrons being more powerful than modern ones. It's because the myth is apocryphal, I suppose.) I guess it's possible that the Old Ones would have armed their cannon fodder with weapons capable of harming the Necrons, but that doesn't fit with their ethos.

In any case, the Eldar of the Necron War period were restricted to a single planet, and did not exist in anywhere near the necessary numbers to create Warp deities on the scale of Cegorach, Khaine, or Asuryan. As Eldar religion evolved, they likely assumed their gods to be eternal (a fair enough belief - I daresay most followers of Chaos believe the same), and retroactively added them to the myths. With word of mouth, things change and details are lost - and there was a very long time for the details of the Necron War to be forgotten. Especially after the Enslaver Plague, it's very unlikely that the Eldar would have any real records of that time period. Perhaps much of their knowledge came from the few records the Old Ones left behind, discovered long after the Necrons were in stasis and the Old Ones extinct?

Okay, so, three of the Chaos gods were born of humanity, which only inhabited a single planet at the time, but we can assume that events there were somewhat different. There was a whole galaxy of pain, rage, despair, and ambition around to fuel the birth of the Chaos gods at the time - Terra merely provided the spark. The Chaos gods are quite broad deities, and draw power from all creatures who feel certain emotions. The Eldar gods were a racial pantheon, specifically attuned to the thought patterns of the Eldar race. Without sufficient numbers of Eldar, they could not have been born.

Anyway, based on all this, I think it is highly unlikely that Cegorach actually did trick the Outsider into going mad. Cegorach just didn't exist, or at least not in sufficient power to affect the Outsider like that. The Deceiver was wholly responsible for the C'tan-eating-C'tan incidents, which drove the Outsider mad. The Eldar later ascribed this to Cegorach mythologically, regardless of the real truth of the matter.
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Offline Harmen

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #8 on: June 5, 2006, 07:14:46 AM »
How do you know the Eldar only lived on one planet? They were created to fight the Necrons, just like the Orcs, the old ones fought the Necrontyr off by warping around and deploying their forces where the Necrontyr couldn't fight them off efectively, that why the Necrontyr kept loosing. Their warrior races would be deployed similarly and created en masse to begin with, otherwise... what would be the point ("Yes, we will have an adam and Eve eldar so that in 50.000 years there will be an army of eldar on the eldar to fight off these robots on our doorstep, right here and right now"). Also, before the time of slaanesh every eldar could use his psuchic potential without danger. That's why they were created the way they are, they started out as mobile warp cannons, as that was the Necrons' weakness. This also means that their effect upon the Warp was much larger and they would grow warp entities at a much greater rate than anything else.

Either way, Cegorach is not the Deceiver, he is much smarter and a Warp entity.
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Offline Major Arah

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #9 on: June 5, 2006, 03:30:16 PM »
On a side note is it possible that the deceiver is actually using abaddon? As somehwere it states he has a golden skinned advisor
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Offline Irandrura

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #10 on: June 5, 2006, 05:17:36 PM »
How do you know the Eldar only lived on one planet?

The 2nd ed. codex describes Eldar prehistory and the Eldar homeworld. There was only one.

Quote
This also means that their effect upon the Warp was much larger and they would grow warp entities at a much greater rate than anything else.

Mind you, there were plenty of other races around at the time, including some very Warp-sensitive ones (the Old Ones!), so why would the Eldar be singled out? The Warp wasn't 'larger' - it's of constant size, infinite, but it was calmer and therefore easier to influence.

Quote from: arah
On a side note is it possible that the deceiver is actually using abaddon? As somehwere it states he has a golden skinned advisor

Some of the Gothic War fluff points to it, but Ygethmor is not the Deceiver, no. Ygethmor has numerous Warp-spawned mutations (and is a psyker!), which the Deceiver isn't too happy about.
« Last Edit: June 5, 2006, 06:16:12 PM by Irandrura »
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #11 on: June 5, 2006, 10:36:51 PM »
No.

I'm sorry, this borders on spam but there is little more to say than that.

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Offline Bumbles

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #12 on: June 7, 2006, 02:52:30 AM »
On a side note is it possible that the deceiver is actually using abaddon? As somehwere it states he has a golden skinned advisor
'fraid not. Given that said advisor is constuled in the Warp.
It doesn't, however, stop it from being He-Who-Laughs-at-She-Who-Thirst.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #13 on: June 8, 2006, 08:14:11 AM »
And why does this constant shoe-horning of the C'tan into every aspect of the background persist?

Kage

Offline Bumbles

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #14 on: June 8, 2006, 07:25:00 PM »
And why does this constant shoe-horning of the C'tan into every aspect of the background persist?

Kage
Becuase like a child with a new toy, GW insists that the C'Tan be used everywhere. This is wear off soon, probably when the 'Quin min-dex eventually comes out and we're reintroduced to Caregorach, who's then responisble for exerything. Becuase he's cool. Like Gw thinks the C'Tan are cool.

Offline Kage2020

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #15 on: June 8, 2006, 07:30:21 PM »
Indeed.  'Nuff said, since there isn't really that much to go with for this thread...

Kage

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #16 on: June 9, 2006, 10:05:04 AM »
How do you know the Eldar only lived on one planet?

The 2nd ed. codex describes Eldar prehistory and the Eldar homeworld. There was only one.
   Well, is speaks of one world with the three moons, but not that this should in any way be the sole planet with Eldar pre-empire.

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Offline Major Arah

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #17 on: June 9, 2006, 10:44:48 AM »
How do you know the Eldar only lived on one planet?

The 2nd ed. codex describes Eldar prehistory and the Eldar homeworld. There was only one.
   Well, is speaks of one world with the three moons, but not that this should in any way be the sole planet with Eldar pre-empire.
I should think that the eldar like all races have a home planet, even if they were planted there by the Old Ones. It would still be nice for the eldar to have a homeworld.
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #18 on: June 9, 2006, 11:09:51 AM »
I would suggest that they do and, further, that there is a difference between the Eldar homeworld and their coreworlds.  Many people argue that the Eldar had numerous homeworlds, hence the Craftworlds.  I don't see it myself.

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Offline Major Arah

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Re: Is The Deceiver really The Laughing God?
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2006, 05:02:47 AM »
I would suggest that they do and, further, that there is a difference between the Eldar homeworld and their coreworlds.  Many people argue that the Eldar had numerous homeworlds, hence the Craftworlds.  I don't see it myself.

Kage
I agree, the craftworlds are actaully trading ships of old. How does hte number of craftworlds have anything to do with the number of home planets?
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