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EldarOnline => Eldar => Topic started by: Frank55 on December 9, 2017, 02:57:08 PM

Title: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Frank55 on December 9, 2017, 02:57:08 PM
I have played Ulthwe since starting 40K in v2 but reading through the new codex I really like the look of Iyanden. I already have 10 of the old metal Wraithguard and 2 of the Wraithlords and Santa has a request in for the new starter box. As my present stuff is shooting orientated I was thinking to go for poking people with sharp things for the new additions, so, what seems to be the best fit for the W G. Swords give you 1 more attack which hits easier but the axe  and shield give you a 4+ inv. I was thinking to go with the axe and take Spirit Seers to buff them. I know a lot of people think the S S is not good value for the points but I have always liked themed armies over a force that has been mainly chosen for effectiveness.

I was also wondering about my old W G, are D-Scythes better than Wraithcannon? I think the old metal arms would be too heavy to magnetise so I would be better doing a permanent job, so, 10 Cannon and 5 combat weapons or 5 cannon, 5 scythe, 5 combat weapon?

For the 3rd Lord I was thinking Sword, but what else, 2 flamers, 2 shuricats or 1 of each. Should I bother with a heavy weapon? if so which, a shurican to get the assault weapon rule?

We have a wide variety of armies at our club so I can not just optimise for a type of army , which I never liked doing anyway.

Thanks in advance for any feedback.
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Partninja on December 9, 2017, 05:47:37 PM
Spiritseer is very well worth their points now that they received a price reduction and can cast full smite. Don't worry about taking one or two.

As far as wraith guard, I would suggest play testing 5x wraith cannons, 5x D-scythes, and 5x ghost swords and see how you like them. Cannons and Scythes both have their place for different uses. I also don't suggest ghost axe and shields due to their point cost. If you want to get into combat with elite units the ghost swords are better simply due to the extra attacks. However, and argument could be made that the D-scythes and cannons would donjiat as good a job and not require making a charge.

I should also mention,as far as Wraith units are concerned, they also fit an Ulthwe army just fine. Multi wound models can take advantage of the extra save better (since they'll make more of them). Don't feel pressured into switching to Iyanden unless you want their specific stratagem, warlord trait or relic.
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Dageran on December 10, 2017, 03:47:36 PM
Welcome to the Ghost Halls!

A lot of the Wraith options are strong-- your biggest challenge will be rounding out a list against horde armies, and not over-optimizing against Elite/vehicle armies (which is easy for Wraiths to do, accidentally.)

You're paying for a tougher, more expensive war-walker that can counter-charge deepstriking units. As Iyanden, you'll never have to worry about the degrading profile, which makes taking multiples way more useful.

The big downside of Wraithlords is how easy it is to tar-pit them in melee, so you'll want to keep them safe from cheap, high-model count infantry that can tie them up.

My favorite loadout is just 2x Catapults & 2x Shuriken Cannons. That gives you 10 shuriken shots with the promise of spiritseer rerolls. The sword is helpful if you need to punch at T4+, but depending on your list, you just may not need them. (I've ended up dropping mine for more heavy weapons to up my overall shot count.)

I'm probably in the minority here, but I've found that Flamers aren't worth it on Wraithlords. They're expensive (almost the cost of 2 shuriken cannons), and don't really help the Wraithlord's vulnerability to getting tar-pitted because of how pile-in moves can be abused in 8th. You'll find that opponents who know what they're doing will declare a charge against another unit with their blob, then pile in 3" into your Wraithlord to dodge the overwatch on the flamers.

Wraithblades (Axes vs. Swords):
Both are good, but I agree with Partninja: The swords are 50pts cheaper and better against hordes. In fact, blades with swords & a wave serpent is the best, fluffy anti-horde option that a Wraith army has access to.

The axes are more well rounded, and can reliably assault vehicles & monsters-- but those are the same targets that Wraithcannons are already perfect for hunting down.

Wraithguard (Cannons vs. D-Scythes):
You can't go wrong with either choice. The Wraithcannon guard are tanky, upcosted fire dragons. Keeping 5-6 in Webway strike is awesome, and will completely change how your opponent deploys.

Since the codex drop, D-scythes have become way less swingy. You can pretty much always expect to get between 8-12 auto-hits. Not quite as effective vs. vehicles as the Wraithcannons, but decent at anti-infantry and anti-horde too. Probably the most well rounded Wraith unit. Kind of a tossup between these and Sword Wraithblades for the best mainstay of a wraith army.

Despite them being flame templates, they're way less vulnerable to the overwatch-skipping pile-in abuse that the Wraithlord is thanks to their ability to backpedal out of melee and shoot.


Overall, like Partninja said- Wraiths are good in any Craftworld, and you don't really need to be Iyanden to make a Wraith army. If you're looking to double-down on the benefits of Iyanden speceifically: Wraithlords and Wraithblades get the biggest benefit from being Iyanden, while D-scythes get no benefit at all- so it's up to your playstyle.
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Frank55 on December 14, 2017, 04:03:23 PM
Thanks for the replies guys, sorry I did not get back to you before but my bookmark kept coming up with a domain expired result, in the end I had to get here the old fashioned way.

Good points about the `blades with swords, I liked the look of them but that 4+ inv looked a really good option, though I am terrible at saving throws ::) I will magnetise my new lads so I have the extra flexability and I will certainly try Partninja`s suggestion of a  cannon/scythe/sword combination in a couple of games. I do have 2 serpents and the option of a webway strike so should be able to get my guys where I want them.

Dageron made a point I had not considered about a sneaky overlap charge negating overwatch shots from flamers, and I have to say I do like the idea of 10 shurikan shots.

I take the point that you both made about not needing to go full on Iynden but I have always believed that if you play an amy you should play an army, very often in the past going with a solely Seer, Wolock, Guardian force and I really do like the Iyanden damage chart rule.

All in all I am enjoying going through all the new options that the new codex has given us. Thanks again for your input.

Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: SeekingOne on December 20, 2017, 09:09:23 AM
As it was mentioned on this forum several times before, from the purely practical standpoint there's no point in taking Wraithblades at all. Everything they do is done by D-scythes in a more efficient manner. Of course, if you want to field them for the purposes of variety and aesthetics, that would be an entirely reasonable thing to do as they look awesome :)
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Dageran on December 22, 2017, 11:04:27 AM
I don't think D-Scythes would replace Wraithblades w/swords. Those fill a pretty unique niche in terms of horde-clearing for Craftworlds. The tough part is that you almost need to have built a list around that concept.

While the D-Scythes can put out a similar number of effective wounds in shooting, they are 50pts more expensive for a group of 5. When taking multiples, that expense can add up. (And, if you're Iyanden, you're not benefiting from the Guided Wraithsight stratagem, or the psytronome with D-Scythes at all.)

I could see a lot of advantages to running 2x 5 Sword-blade squads in Wave serpents as Iyanden. You're saving 100pts off of the same number of Wraiths in D-Scythes, and you're pumping out 70 attacks, rerolling misses on the charge with the Psytronome activation.
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Akaitsuki on December 23, 2017, 02:02:10 PM
I've been a long time player of Iyanden as my 2nd fav craftworld (Biel-tan is my fav) in 8th edition however I have mostly played Iyanden lists and by mostly I mean every game i played using Eldar so far has been Iyanden lol (about 5 or 6 games so far) this is what I have concluded.

Wraithlords - Great for opening Brigade detachments. If you don't want to run a brigade or a cheap spearhead, then dont bother. Basic loadouts is the way to go with no shoulder weapons these guys get too expensive with shoulder weapons. Keep 'em cheap.

Wraithguard - Either variant is good. I found more success with Wraithcannons, however Fire Dragons can do the same job for cheaper. D-scythes are hampered by the shorter range, however the overwatch perk is hilarious, and the auto-hit is a MAJOR bonus vs targets such as Flyers, Culexus Assassins and generally anything that has negative penalties to hit. So I recommend a unit of each.

Wraithblades - I have just 1 unit with axes which I find superior not for the ability to mulch hordes, but because they get an invulnerable save. That's the seller. You throw these guys at hard to kill units that can ignore armour saves on your other stuff. A wraithlord fighting Deathwing Knights is going to have a bad day, thats when you send in the ghost axes.

Wraithknights - I own 4 of these, sadly they suck at the moment, like seriously suck I can't even call them decent choices for the points. If you must take one then bring it as basic as you can with just the sword and shield and use it in the same role as the above mentioned wraithblades. Curb stomp units that your other stuff would struggle to wound.

Guardians - I actively fielded 3 units of 20x Guardians with my Iyanden just because I could with little fear to morable penalties, and it worked out pretty good when I used them aggressively. It's reassuring to know you can take casualties without worry it makes them viable. It also extremely helped with my bubble wrap, I destroyed a Blood Angels army in my last game simply because the 3 huge units of guardians covered most of my deployment and left no good spaces to deep strike, being an assault/deep strike oriented army this severely crippled Blood Angels and allowed the rest of my army to annihilate the opposition.

Spiritseer - Yes! Nuff said. Always.

Warlock - Quicken is the way to go. Wraiths are slow.
Title: Re: Ulthwe to Iyanden.
Post by: Frank55 on January 4, 2018, 03:13:04 PM
Luckily I never bought any WraithKnights, when I could afford to they were not available and when they became available I just could not afford to get any so now they are not good I am quite happy about that.

At the moment I am busy magnetising my `blades so I can go either way, the 4++ is very tempting but dice and I do not have a happy relationship ::). I think so far I have got every "unkillable" model I have ever fielded killed, some of them multiple times.