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The Armies of 40k => Imperial Forces => Topic started by: Wyddr on October 11, 2017, 09:33:17 PM

Title: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 11, 2017, 09:33:17 PM
So, got my copy today and have been going through it. Just some initial reactions:


Overall we are looking at a very strong book here. Lots and lots of potentially viable army builds, none of the regimental rules are useless, and everything that was in the index basically got better. As far as I can tell, the only thing that got more expensive was plasma guns for veterans and enough other things got a discount that I doubt many army lists will require much alteration. I just swapped out a Forgeworld flyer for my Executioner and I'm good to go, basically.

Other people's thoughts, now that you have the book?

EDIT: And I just noticed that Rough Riders are gone! Gone!
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 11, 2017, 11:09:40 PM
Damn, Rough Riders worked with my Regiment way back.

Did the Valks really need a price break? I thought they were doing okay in the great scheme of things.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on October 11, 2017, 11:30:20 PM
EDIT: And I just noticed that Rough Riders are gone! Gone!
Not gone, per say.  You are still able to use the rules for them from the Index, and they have all of the relevant army and regimental rules from the codex.

At least, I think that is what GW said to do.  They mentioned it in one of their community articles when the Marine codex first came out.  The codex is just for units that currently have models, but if you have units that can still be represented and they are in the Index, to just use that.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 11, 2017, 11:32:08 PM
Half arsed and under paid as expected. We'll still take it.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Aurics Pride on October 12, 2017, 03:53:31 AM
I sat down reading a friends copy of the codex and to be honest they still worry me just as much!
The insane amounts of firepower that they are now able to put out from things like Punishers, Executioners etc is going to give any army some serious issues. Add that to how easy and cheap it is for them to bubble wrap their important units.
On a game balance perspective I really don't like this codex, it seems that GW is back with their codex creep after the Death Guard book and then this one. But I do love the fact that there is a lot of character to the book and most of the regiment traits actually represent the regiments very well.
Guard were very good in the index and with this book they have become quite a bit stronger, expect to see a lot of high command point guard armies rocking Leman Russ and conscript blobs wiping out armies by turn 3.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 12, 2017, 06:31:15 AM
Did the Valks really need a price break? I thought they were doing okay in the great scheme of things.

They really didn't. They were pretty fairly priced. Quite surprising. I guess enough people whined that it was only shooting on Ork BS.

I think it may be *slightly* premature to call the book overpowered (too many codexes to go, and Death Guard is similarly powerful), but I think it's worrisome that this codex is so clearly stronger than the Space Marine dex.

The big problems here boil down to a few units only, though. I think Command Squads are too good, I think Conscripts are too good by half, and the Punisher just got ridiculous. Everything else is basically what the guard have always had: overwhelming firepower.

The other problem is edition-wide: the only effective anti-horde out there is another horde. The giant nerf to blast weapons is a wonderful gift to every AM Commander and Ork Warboss--there just aren't enough bullets anymore.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Cavalier on October 12, 2017, 08:28:45 AM
I'm really happy the IG tanks are so hardcore. I think its the way it should be.

The infantry are just too elite. The orders, regimental doctrines, theimmune to morale and just the spammability and strategms are just way to over the top. Space Marines, Primaris Marines etc. are nowhere near this elite, versatile in all the tricks they can pull and that makes no sense.

Especialy when it comes to Conscripts these problem also got worse. With shooting at full BS on overwatch, and firing into combat, ressurecting them for command points, joining smaller units into bigger units... its like they doubled down on the power of the conscripts.

I played a maelstrom game against a 200 Conscript list a few weeks ago and my opponent just had an infinite amount of bodies across 6 ft of board and by turn 3 holding 3/4 of the objectives and there was nothing I could do to stop him.

Quote
The other problem is edition-wide: the only effective anti-horde out there is another horde. The giant nerf to blast weapons is a wonderful gift to every AM Commander and Ork Warboss--there just aren't enough bullets anymore.

This is exactly the issue. The firepower of the big blasters is nowhere near up to the task. The old Fire Prism, Frag Missile Devs, Exocrine, Thunderfires etc would have been all stars in this edition if it could clip as many dudes as it used to. Then -even though I think they are still too elite with orders + doctrines- I wouldn't care one bit because at least you have a solid tools to take them out. With the nastiness of IG tanks you'd have to protect these anti-horde assets but at least you'd have the tools.

I think this has been the first BIG mistake of 8th edition. 
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 12, 2017, 08:38:34 AM
This is exactly the issue. The firepower of the big blasters is nowhere near up to the task....I think this has been the first BIG mistake of 8th edition. 

I would like to state, for the record, that I pointed this out the moment they said they were getting rid of blast templates and you people laughed me out of the room. So...now I'm playing Guard and you can all eat it.  ;D

Honestly, though, apart from Conscripts, I really don't see this book as being wildly overpowered. It is when compared to Marines, I suppose, but Marines got kinda a modest codex and are furthermore hampered by the fact that the core rules of the edition are screwing them over (along with all other elite armies).

As for the Combined Squads thing: the only reason to do this is orders, right? I can't think of any other advantage afforded by having one big blob instead of multiple little blobs. 
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Cavalier on October 12, 2017, 09:12:24 AM
The consolidating units thing is definitley for orders. Which sucks because one of the limiting factors of Conscripts was really the HQ support, which is now an easy work around.

As for the blast/templates thing. I don't see why they just didnt figure out a non-variable number for blasts and templates. Like Flamers are 8 auto-hits, large blasts are 10 auto hits, small are 5 etc.

I hope as Chapter Approved rolls on we get less variability in hits + damage. Some flat numbers would be good
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 12, 2017, 09:42:50 AM
The consolidating units thing is definitley for orders. Which sucks because one of the limiting factors of Conscripts was really the HQ support, which is now an easy work around.

It does seem to defeat the entire purpose of nerfing their squad size, yeah.  ::)
Oh, GW. You hot mess, you. 

Quote
As for the blast/templates thing. I don't see why they just didnt figure out a non-variable number for blasts and templates. Like Flamers are 8 auto-hits, large blasts are 10 auto hits, small are 5 etc.

I hope as Chapter Approved rolls on we get less variability in hits + damage. Some flat numbers would be good

Even if it were just flat attacks, not hits, I'd be happy. Give me 8 shots with an earthshaker cannon and I won't complain.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Aurics Pride on October 12, 2017, 11:31:23 AM
To be fair as you say it's too early to say that it's overpowered as we still have Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids etc to come. I do believe that there is some serious codex creep occurring already and I don't just mean between the codexes and the indexes. The Space Marine Codex and most of the "Fluffy" builds in the Chaos Space Marines codex are significantly weaker than the Death Guard or AM Codices.
The loss of templates is probably my biggest annoyance with 8th edition. There is so much in the edition that rewards good luck rather than good tactical play. With the templates there was value in predicting scatters and moving your units to ensure a greater amount of hits. Now it doesn't really matter how the unit it grouped or where they/you are positioned it's all about being able to roll high on a dice. It may make it a bit faster and cut down on a few of the arguments but your ability to deal with Horde units decreases significantly and it hamstrings those players that are good enough to take advantage of their knowledge/ experience.
To be honest I am secretly hoping that at some point templates are going to return but I suppose I shouldn't hold my breath!
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: magenb on October 12, 2017, 04:41:11 PM
To be fair as you say it's too early to say that it's overpowered as we still have Eldar, Necrons, Tyranids etc to come.

I don't like that argument as it does not yield a balanced game. The ideal scenario is that every army should be roughly the same power level.

IF a new codex comes out, it will need to compete against this mess, which will inevitably make it stronger against those that have already been released. If GW gets hit by a warp storm and tries to make the next codex balanced against the Marine codex, then the game is still broken because of all the other codex's that are better than it already.

The only other option is chapter approved to nerf the hell out of newly released codex (I can hear the nerd rage now, I've only had my codex for x months and now its crap) or buff up the other codexes, both options make this a messy affair.




This is exactly the issue. The firepower of the big blasters is nowhere near up to the task.

I think it makes more sense to adjust the Horde rather than guns in every other army. Buffing the guns may either make them better/worse against normal infantry.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 12, 2017, 04:58:36 PM
But how do you adjust *all* horde troops (which are hardly equivalent)?

This is an issue of core game mechanics, not of any particular unit.

I think the easiest fix is to convert all variable shot weapons into fixed shot weapons or maybe scale all such weapons by target size (+1d6 or +1d3 per 5 models or something).
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on October 12, 2017, 06:34:08 PM
But how do you adjust *all* horde troops (which are hardly equivalent)?

This is an issue of core game mechanics, not of any particular unit.

I think the easiest fix is to convert all variable shot weapons into fixed shot weapons or maybe scale all such weapons by target size (+1d6 or +1d3 per 5 models or something).

Easily IMO. All guns with variable numbers of shots have a buff when shooting a unit that has more than 10 models in it.

That buff is either (A) Never get less than 3 hits (B) get the max number of hits possible (Too powerful I think) or (C) the number of hits gets doubled (My favorite).
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: magenb on October 12, 2017, 09:29:14 PM

Easily IMO. All guns with variable numbers of shots have a buff when shooting a unit that has more than 10 models in it.

That buff is either (A) Never get less than 3 hits (B) get the max number of hits possible (Too powerful I think) or (C) the number of hits gets doubled (My favorite).

If you are going down this route, I would actually make it a keyword thing. If the unit you are firing at has the keyword HORDE, then flamers (and blast style weapons) generate double the hits. If the unit has SWARM flamers generate double the wounds, etc.

Assigning values based on the number of models in the unit has other problems, like being able to just MSU and use more slots, etc.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 12, 2017, 09:30:42 PM
Indeed, yes--introduce a keyword and change how weapons work with it.

Let's hope they do that.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on October 12, 2017, 09:37:58 PM
There are some positive and negatives to using the keywords. If a unit of 10 gets hit by a weapon that gets double shots vs horde, that may be too OP.

By making it based on the number of models, it also makes those guns less effective once the squad drops in size. It will make people have to choose between continuing to shoot at that squad or firing their big guns at another squad. It also makes things like combined squads for IG more a tactical option.. do you want to push that squad up over the 10 man limit?

Finally, what squads are able to take 11+ models that should not have the Horde keyword? And if they take MSU, is that a bad thing? It changes their play stlye. Id much rather face 6 squads of 10 Boyz than 2 squads of 30. I can mess with their LD then... Or do they take one squad of 30 and 3 of 10.... makes these more tactical options.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: magenb on October 12, 2017, 11:28:02 PM
By making it based on the number of models, it also makes those guns less effective once the squad drops in size.

The problem is you don't just face 1 unit of 20, scale the battle out to 100+ models, you need those anti-horde weapons to purge the unit. 100+ individual wounds is difficult to chew through, which is the problem your trying to work around.

There are also units that can be more than 10, but are not really horde, CWE Guardians and a bunch of DE squads are good examples.


Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 13, 2017, 06:09:29 AM
Okay, okay--I think we're getting off topic here. Any further thoughts on the AM codex, other than "conscripts are the devil?"

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 13, 2017, 08:06:06 AM
I think it's a good book. The doctrines are really neat, a lot of fun relics and stratagems. Lots of flexability to build whatever sort of army you want. I'm happy to see Leman Russ's being a competitive choice in the army for the first time..well..ever.

Played against a cadian Leman Russ army with a Baneblade variant last week (Two tank commanders, two enginseers, baneblade, 4-6 russ's (forget how many), with my Harlequins. Tough game, but the army has absolutely no mobility. I won on objectives, as he couldn't move anywhere.

The tank stratagem to put tank orders on two models is really nice, but after turn 1, all he was shooting was overwatch. Still wiped out most my army lol, killed half my force T1.

Triple heavy flamers on a leman russ is really nice :) :)

I think combined arms armies will be best. Mix of troops and tanks.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 13, 2017, 09:02:21 AM
The points increase on the plasma guns is making me rearrange my pure Scion/Assassins army. Basically had to drop two command squads to back fill the points for plasma just for my troops. Quite a bit of missing fire power there. However, with all the fancy orders, stratagems and what-nots I'll probably make out ok. Overall happy with it.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 13, 2017, 09:46:27 AM
Played against a cadian Leman Russ army with a Baneblade variant last week (Two tank commanders, two enginseers, baneblade, 4-6 russ's...

I was toying with this as a fun concept the other day, but I eventually concluded that you really *need* some kind of assault screen, otherwise the tanks are going to be stuck in combat or falling back all game. Seems I was right.

For me, the biggest disappointment in the book is the Basilisk, which is just *not good* and the exact same cost as it was. Would have liked to see *either* a nice discount OR some kind of firepower boost. As it stands, it's just a sub-par lascannon squad for 50% more points. 

The points increase on the plasma guns is making me rearrange my pure Scion/Assassins army. Basically had to drop two command squads to back fill the points for plasma just for my troops. Quite a bit of missing fire power there. However, with all the fancy orders, stratagems and what-nots I'll probably make out ok. Overall happy with it.

My intended list wasn't relying quite so heavily on plasma as that. Worked out that all I had to do was swap an Avenger Strike Fighter for an Executioner (which, given the new rules, has better damage output anyway).

I've been thinking a lot about Relics and Warlord Traits lately. There's a certain appeal to taking a Commander with Graf Toschenko's Plate, a power fist, and the Vostroyan Warlord trait and punching big dudes in the face with a stupidly cheap model. Of course, then you're also running your Warlord at the enemy, which is a good way to give them a point. Hmmmm...
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 13, 2017, 05:45:10 PM
My group is going to RAI the relic for double orders to work. That's pretty strong for my Scions.

Also considering the one that gives you CP back when your opponent spends them combined with the warlord trait for when you spend CP.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 14, 2017, 11:49:52 AM
The double-orders one is weird, since you're supposed to execute the order immediately when issued, but you can only shoot once. Seems like the only orders you can issue along with another is a Move Move Move or Get Back in the Fight.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 14, 2017, 12:16:40 PM
Not even that. The voice of command specifically states a unit can only be affected by one order per turn.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 14, 2017, 01:38:46 PM
Oh, well it seems pretty clear the relic overrides that. Are people even suggesting it doesn't?
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 14, 2017, 02:07:54 PM
What's the wording of the relic?
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 14, 2017, 03:41:10 PM
What's the wording of the relic?

"Roll a die each time the bearer issues an order to a friendly <Regiment> unit within XXX." On a X+ the bearer can immediately issue another order to the same unit."

Seems pretty clear to me--the relic is overriding the standard Voice of Command limitations.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 14, 2017, 03:49:06 PM
I assume the idea is that while nothing prevents you from issuing two orders to a unit, the unit can only be affected by one order per the voice of command rule.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Stormbane on October 14, 2017, 06:11:55 PM
I assume the idea is that while nothing prevents you from issuing two orders to a unit, the unit can only be affected by one order per the voice of command rule.

But that would make the relic utterly pointless, surely?

I'm with Wyddr on this one; the relic overrides the limitation imposed by word of command.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 14, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
What's the wording of the relic?

"Roll a die each time the bearer issues an order to a friendly <Regiment> unit within XXX." On a X+ the bearer can immediately issue another order to the same unit."

Seems pretty clear to me--the relic is overriding the standard Voice of Command limitations.

Seems clear to me too.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 14, 2017, 08:59:41 PM
I think the larger issue is that you can only really use it to issue Move Move Move or Get Back in the Fight plus one shooty order. Sure, that's handy, but good enough to justify giving up another relic?

That said, now that I'm thinking about it, it would be pretty nasty on Vostroyans: issue a Fix Bayonets and then a Repel the Enemy and you are putting out a *lot* of hurt on an assault unit. 
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on October 14, 2017, 10:50:17 PM
What's the wording of the relic?

"Roll a die each time the bearer issues an order to a friendly <Regiment> unit within XXX." On a X+ the bearer can immediately issue another order to the same unit."

Seems pretty clear to me--the relic is overriding the standard Voice of Command limitations.
I think this is a case of people thinking too hard, like they used to have to in the previous edition.

To me, it is very clear that it allows the second order.  The argument is similar to the one for the regiment getting the overwatch bonus.  People were trying to argue that because the rules for Overwatch state that it can never be modified, that the regimental rules don't work.  As it is, it is very much a case for specific trumping general.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 15, 2017, 12:33:18 PM
I don't see why you couldn't use two shooty orders if the relic has you "immediately" issue a second order, which would be before the shooting action is taken.

For my Scions, I want the rerolls of 1s and rapid 2 hot-shot.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 15, 2017, 01:13:23 PM
I don't see why you couldn't use two shooty orders if the relic has you "immediately" issue a second order, which would be before the shooting action is taken.

For my Scions, I want the rerolls of 1s and rapid 2 hot-shot.

I was about to explain how you have to execute the orders immediately, but in going back I see that such language has been taken out. In fact, everything says "until the end of the phase." That's new (perhaps as of this edition, but this is the first time I've noticed it).

That's...huge, actually. You can opt to have your ordered units act later in the phase! You just have to issue orders first and then go about having a normal shooting phase. Holy crap, you guys! No more having to burn orders to try and kill transports so I can FR/SR the guys inside!

Yaaay!
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 22, 2017, 01:30:33 PM
New FAQs and Errata for the Astra Militarum and beyond – Warhammer (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/22/new-faqs-and-errata-for-the-astra-militarum-and-beyond-oct-22gw-homepage-post-1/)


Well, the Astra Millitarium faq is out, and successful stopped conscript abuse, by changing commissars. Thank the gods. This single handedly changes the competitive meta on its own.

Also, a bunch of other faq's which stopped a bunch of arguments. Like 'send in the next wave' does cost renforcment points. Like it should.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Aurics Pride on October 22, 2017, 05:53:39 PM
New FAQs and Errata for the Astra Militarum and beyond – Warhammer (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/10/22/new-faqs-and-errata-for-the-astra-militarum-and-beyond-oct-22gw-homepage-post-1/)


Well, the Astra Millitarium faq is out, and successful stopped conscript abuse, by changing commissars. Thank the gods. This single handedly changes the competitive meta on its own.

Also, a bunch of other faq's which stopped a bunch of arguments. Like 'send in the next wave' does cost renforcment points. Like it should.

The Commissar change is absolutely huge!
A few interesting little changes, but the commissar change really is the big one.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 22, 2017, 09:21:24 PM
That change was needed.

Also, our whole talk about Laurels of Command was for naught. You can't issue two shooting orders to the same unit now. <shrug>
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 03:46:39 PM

Also, our whole talk about Laurels of Command was for naught. You can't issue two shooting orders to the same unit now. <shrug>

How so? You issue take aim. They get the reroll but haven't fired yet. You immediately roll a D6 and pass the roll to issue the second order for FRF-SRF. Then then they fire receiving both bonuses.

EDIT: Unless you meant splitting orders between fire as described further above (pop tank - shoot occupants)?
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 23, 2017, 05:36:35 PM
The FAQ reads that you have to "execute the order first." That means shooting. You can't shoot twice, so...
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 05:50:16 PM
The order doesn't make you shoot. It just gives a bonus when you do shoot. That bonus is immediately issued via the FAQ. I don't see anywhere that says you also immediately shoot.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 23, 2017, 06:02:09 PM
The order doesn't make you shoot. It just gives a bonus when you do shoot. That bonus is immediately issued via the FAQ. I don't see anywhere that says you also immediately shoot.


Quote
Q: If I issue an order to a unit with an Officer who has the Laurels of Command, and I roll a 4+ to issue another order to the same unit, do I resolve the first order before issuing the second? A: Yes.

Q: Can I use Laurels of Command to issue the same order twice to the same unit?
A: No, the second order issued must be a different order.


Agreed. You just issue orders at the beginning of the phase and then go buck wild. Most of the orders abilities last until the end of turn, and don't take place immediately.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 23, 2017, 07:56:20 PM
But how can an order be considered "resolved" before you use it? Are we exchanging "resolved" with "issued?"

What's the difference between the two? So far as I can tell, it should be that you actually complete the order before getting a new one. Why else would there be a question?
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 08:04:10 PM
That's how I read it. It says resolved as in finished. If you immediately issue another order the first one is just hanging there like the saddest partially completed high-five.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 08:05:31 PM
You did complete the order. You give the unit rerolls, which happens before they even fire. Then you immediately make their weapons shoot more shots. Again, before they even fire.

Weather you issue or resolve the order, it's still not making them fire yet. They're just getting bonuses.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 08:07:17 PM
Then what is the question asking?
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 08:18:13 PM
I'm not sure. I've been confused about FAQ questions in the past before. They sometimes add more vagueness. The wrong question is asked a lot IMO.

 In either case, I don't see anything that says immediately fire your weapons (voice of command, the order, or the FAQ/Relic).

Edit: also note, you issue all orders at the start of the shooting phase. Units aren't required to iummediately act as soon as the order is given in this instance either (at least not the example orders).
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 08:43:23 PM
The question/answer says something must be done prior to issuing the second order. What is that thing? Wyddr and I are saying it means using the order.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 08:59:48 PM
Right. It's saying the first order must be resolved first. Issuing or "resolving" an order applies a bonus. No where does it say that actually firing is part of that. You're resolving the bonus. That's the only "action". The fact that the orders are until the end of the phase would imply this.

Going by your logic what double order could actually work then? Move, Move Move is instead of shooting. so that can't be comboed with any shooting orders. It also can't be used with fix bayonets since you would already need to be in combat. You can't combo with any any non-shooting orders either.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 23, 2017, 09:10:25 PM
Yeah, shooting or running, or making a melee attack is not using the order. Issuing the order is using the order.

You could then (if you wanted), give take aim, and bring it down to the same unit, allowing the re-rolls to hits and wounds. Unlike in 7th, issuing the order doesn't force the ordered unit to immediately fire it's weapons. That's why the bonuses all last until the end of the phase.

The only orders which force a unit to activate, are move move move, and fix bayonets.

Granted, you normally cannot issue multiple orders to one unit, which is where that relic comes in. Although, to be fair, you'll probably always take the relic to steal your opponents command points.

Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 09:16:15 PM
Depends on the list. Taking the relic for stealing command points (which can go above your starting number of CP) combined with the warlord trait for when you spend CP is really strong.


For my Scions, the rerolls to hits, wounds (both the normal order and the scions special order) as well as first rank second rank are the most back for the buck. Hence why being able to double "shoot order" is so important. I need more orders than I need stratagems (in my experience).
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 09:20:54 PM
Issuing the order is not resolving it else the question wouldn't exist. If issuing the order already resolves it then there's nothing to be resolved before issuing the second order.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 23, 2017, 09:23:01 PM
I don't understand what the FAQ could possibly be clarifying besides saying you can't shoot twice.

Move Move Move could easily be issued after shooting, Get Back In The Fight plus FR/SR. Some regiment specific orders could overlap.

Originally, there was no argument you could stack shooting orders--it was crystal clear. The only reason for this clarification would be to prevent the very thing you guys want to do.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on October 23, 2017, 09:30:58 PM
Yeah, you can't shoot twice, just stack orders.

I think I misunderstood what you folks were arguing about.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 10:24:38 PM
I'm not saying you can shoot twice either. Where did you get that from? I'm talking about staking shooting oriented orders....

To clarify:

That change was needed.

Also, our whole talk about Laurels of Command was for naught. You can't issue two shooting orders to the same unit now. <shrug>

I was responding to this quote. I am saying you can stack two shooting orders as the bonuses apply before you shoot. I'm not sure how this turned into me saying you can shoot twice.

1) Issue shooting related order at start of shooting phase
2) Order resolved and unit gains a bonus (not forced to fire yet)
3) immediately roll D6 and pass for 2nd order
4) issue 2nd shooting related order
5) 2nd order resolves (gain second bonus)
6) continue casting all other orders at start of shooting phase for other officers
7) now you actually shoot (ONCE) gaining both bonuses
 
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 10:50:10 PM
Point 2 and 5 is the issue. How is the order resolved? If merely issuing the order is an automatic resolve then the question wasn't relevant to begin with.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 10:55:07 PM
And it would be in line with other silly FAQs where it wasn't needed or the question was poorly worded/answered.

How is Eldar Guide resolved? The unit doesn't immediately shoot then either. The spell is resolved by the unit gaining the bonus. Then it uses the bonus when it goes to shoot.

You can't Move move move then using a shooting order as MMM is specifically in place of shooting.

How does get back in the fight plus FR/SR work? If you fall back you then immediately shoot by your logic...then you can't use FR/SR since you already fired.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 10:59:46 PM
No. This one specifically says you resolve the first order before issuing the second. You're saying issuing the order is resolution itself which makes no sense at all given the context of the question.

Edit: 1 - Please don't edit a post after someone else has posted without making clear your changes. It's bad social etiquette.

2 - You mean there may be issues with stacking orders even though the FAQ says resolve 1 before 2. Yes. That's the point.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 11:06:02 PM
I can't say why GW does what it does or where they pull silly questions from.

If the orders don't work this way I don't see the point in it at all then. I see no other combinations that work.

Edit: I edited my posts before there were responses.
Edit 2: at least before the internet showed there was a response.
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on October 23, 2017, 11:09:26 PM
Look at the time stamps.  ;)
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Partninja on October 23, 2017, 11:13:55 PM
Don't appear on mobile ;)

Edit: it seems quotes show the time stamps but not the post itself. It also doesn't show a post was edited (or it's time stamp)
Title: Re: New Codex: First Impressions
Post by: Wyddr on October 24, 2017, 08:48:53 AM
Okay, just to clarify one final time what GrimSqueaker and I are saying, I believe it should go like this:

1) Issue First Order
2) Order is resolved (so, if you were issued a Bring It Down, you shoot your guns and re-roll certain numbers of to-wound rolls).
3) Second order is issued (if possible).
4) Resolve second order. If you already shot with your first order, you can't shoot again.

Therefore, shooting orders cannot stack. Indeed, I think you're also right that you can't stack a shooting order with a Move Move Move. Therefore, the only order that can be stacked is Get Back in the Fight along with whatever else. Or, I guess if you were playing Vostroyans, you could do a Fix Bayonets and then a Repel the Enemy, though the times you'd want to do this are sufficiently rare that it'll probably never come up.

If you don't want to agree with me, that's fine--you do what you want. I don't really care enough to argue further. I will say, though, that I can't see what "resolve" would mean in this context besides what I've laid out. Conflating "Issue" with "Resolve" makes no sense, as then they wouldn't have FAQed anything in the first place.   
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