News: No news is good news...

Login  |  Register

Author Topic: Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.  (Read 1930 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MagicJuggler

  • Juggling a load of balls
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2012
  • Country: 00
  • Nobody expects the Spanish Ynquisition.
Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
« on: December 15, 2016, 11:05:54 AM »
Overall, I'm...disappointed with Wrath of Magnus. Magnus is admittedly cool, and it's about time Ahriman gained a Disc, but beyond that, I have several issues with it:
-The bonuses are weak, and Thousand Sons are actually pretty inefficient at tossing Psychic powers around.
-Many of the formations, Daemon or otherwise, are actually pretty boring/spammy in nature. Heralds Anarchic and Omniscient Oracles are the two best ones, with the first being "3-9 Heralds", the second being "Fateweaver and 1-3 Lords of Change." 3 of the Thousand Sons formations are variants of "3-9 Sorcerers and a Big Sorcerer" and they only have one Auxiliary formation otherwise, which is fundamentally "one Sorcerer and 3-9 units of Tzaangors" (fine, or Spawn), and one of their Cores is "I hope you like spamming Terminators!"
-The Grand Coven's bonuses are actually pretty crummy. You sacrifice Obsec and the ability to reroll Warlord Traits on a table of choice to being locked into the Thousand Sons Table, being allowed to manifest another power per turn (this is usually a trap by the way; Psychic Dice are limited after all), and actually attempting to minimize how many Thousand Sons you actually take.

Anyway, this is an early homebrew/brainstorming about homebrew to revise certain aspects of Thousand Sons in a way that feels more flavorful, more scalable across different points levels, yet doesn't cause them to break 40k to death. As usual, I'd like to know your thoughts one way or another. I have a lot of designer notes I can dump later on, regarding the "whys" of certain proposed changes if any of them look particularly insane. I imagine the big "wait, why" would be the Grand Coven's bonus, but WC is very much a game of linear point-costs for logarithmic gain (barring certain builds of course).

==Psychic Powers==

Tzeentch's Firestorm:Tzeentch's Firestorm is a ML 1 Witchfire with the following profile: Range 18, Strength 5, AP 3, Assault 1, Blast, Warpflame, Inferno: Inferno: A model that the hole of the blast is centered over takes a single S9 AP 2 hits instead of a single S5 AP 3 hit.

Boon of Mutation: Remove the Strength 4 hit from the ability. Allow Boon of Mutation to work alongside Favored Scions. When you roll for a Chaos Boon, you may re-roll one die or the other.

Siphon Magic: Siphon Magic is a WC 2 Blessing that targets the Psyker's unit. If cast successfully, the Psyker's unit gains +1 Strength until the start of the 1k Sons' next Psychic Phase, and the 1k Sons player immediately gains D3+1 Warp Charge.

-Add a restriction to Treason of Tzeentch and other "mind control" powers to prevent them from affecting the same model multiple times. No double mind-control stacking with Shroud of Deceit!

=Warlord Traits=

Forbidden Lore: Append the following: If your Warlord was not a Psyker, your Warlord is now treated as a Mastery Level 1 Psyker that must generate a power from the Lore of Tzeentch.

==Wargear==

Warpflamer Weapons: Are equivalent to weapons of their normal type, but with +1 Strength, and Warpflame. This means a Warpflamer is S5 AP 5, a Heavy Warpflamer is S6, AP 4, etc.

Icon of Flame: The simple tweak would be to replace "Soul Blaze" with "+1 Strength & Warpflame", for S5 Inferno Boltguns, S6 Heavy Bolters, etc.

==Thousand Sons Unit Tweaks==

Magnus: Magnus is boss, I'll grant that. The only thing I would change is a requirement that if you do take Magnus, he must be your Warlord, and he may only be fielded in a Thousand Sons detachment. I wrote a list with him, Typhus and Plague Zombies and that's just wrong.

Exalted Sorcerer: The Exalted Sorcerer may choose a Force Weapon of choice instead of just the Staff. Modify Lord of the Silver Tower as follows: Change the attack profile to: Range: Infinite, Strength 7, AP 2, Heavy 1, Barrage, Armorbane. The attack still requires Line of Sight as normal, and is no longer "Once Per Game"

Rubric Marines: The Aspiring Sorcerer gains an additional wound and an Inferno Boltgun to go alongside the Inferno Bolt Pistol. The Aspiring Sorcerer has a Force Weapon of choice. One Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon; if the unit numbers 10 or more, a second Rubric Marine may take a Soulreaper Cannon.

Scarab Occult Terminators: The Sorcerer may chose a Force Weapon of Choice; may swap out the Inferno Combi-Bolter for a Power Weapon for 5 points. Scarab Occult Terminators replace their Power Sword for a Power Khopesh (S: User+1, AP 4, Rending). For every 5 models in this unit, up to 2 models may select a Heavy Warpflamer, Soulreaper Cannon, or Hellfyre Missile Rack. Optionally, allow them to be taken as the Terminator requirement for any Detachment requiring Terminators. Use them in a Terminator Annihilation Force or Black Legion Warband.

Tzaangors: Replace Relic Hunters with Bestial Fury: They gain +1 Strength and Initiative if they pass a Leadership check at the start of a Fight Sub-Phase. This replaces their "Bonus Strength/Initiative on Charge" bonus from their formation. Optionally, they could have Scout, to mimic "ambush" tactics of olde WHFB Beastmen.
-The Twistbray has 2 wounds base and Champion of Chaos, can take Melee Weapons from the Chaos Space Marines armory or a Gift of Mutation (no Meltabombs though), and may be upgraded to a ML 1 Psyker for +25 points.

==Thousand Sons Detachment==
=Requirements=
-Models that may take the Mark of Tzeentch must do so.
-Units with any Mark other than Tzeentch may not be taken.
-Daemon Princes must be Daemons of Tzeentch.
-Units that are Daemons of any other Chaos God may not be taken.
-Models with Daemonforge must be Daemons of Tzeentch at an extra +10 points per model.
-Models that may take Veterans of the Long War must do so at no additional cost.

=Benefits=
Legacy of the Rubric: All non-Character models with Veterans of the Long War gain Fearless. All non-character models with Veterans of the Long War that don't already have Relentless have Slow and Purposeful.

Blessing of Tzeentch: Any Thousand Sons unit gains +1 free Warp Charge (but must spend at least one Warp Charge point as normal) when attempting to manifest a Blessing on a Thousand Sons Unit with Veterans of the Long War.

Loremasters of Tzeentch: Psykers in this detachment may generate up to all their powers from the Lore of Tzeentch; they must still generate at least one power from the Lore as normal.

==Grand Coven==
NOTE: Many of these formations will be modified to be a total of "9" units, one Independent Character + 8. This way it's "9" in total, especially since it's fairly possible to run certain characters "solo" in 40k, and it makes getting certain bonuses in 40k more attainable.

NOTE: Favored of Tzeentch is "when the maximum number of units in this formation is taken, models in the formation may re-roll 1s for Saves. Daemons of Tzeentch may instead re-roll all Invulnerable Saving throws instead."

=Restrictions=
-This is a Thousand Sons Detachment, and all units in this Detachment must adhere to the corresponding restrictions.
-Must take at least one Core and one Auxiliary. It may take up to 3 Command Choices.

=Benefits=
Lord of Fallen Prospero: Unchanged
Masters of Arcane Knowledge: Any Psykers from this detachment that suffer from Perils of the Warp may re-roll the result of Perils; the second result still stands. All Characters in this detachment gain +1 Mastery Level; units with Brotherhood of Psykers gain Brotherhood of Psykers (Mastery Level 2) instead.

=Core Formations=
War Cabal: Ahriman/Sorcerer/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Rubric Marines, 1-2 Sorcerers or units of Rubric Marines, and 1-2 units of Rubric Marines or Scarab Occult Terminators. They have Favored of Tzeentch and replace Oracular Guidance with
-All is Dust: At the start of the Thousand Sons' player turn, any Thousand Sons Marine unit from this formation with Veterans of the Long War returns D3 Rubric Marine models back into play. these models must be in coherency with the rest of the unit and at least 1" away from any enemy models; any models that cannot be placed in this manner are not placed.

Sekhmet Conclave: Magnus/Ahriman/Daemon Prince/Exalted Sorcerer, 1-4 units of Scarab Occult Terminators, 1-2 Helbrutes or units of Scarab Occult Terminators, and 1-2 Exalted Sorcerers or units of Scarab Occult Terminators. Units from this formation may not take Dedicated Transports. They keep Favored of Tzeentch, and Sorcerous Sigil-Wards is modified so that all 6s to wound/penetrate a unit within 6" of two other units from this formation are treated as 1s.

=Command Formations=
Lords of the Thousand Sons: Magnus, Ahriman, an Exalted Sorcerer, Sorcerer, or Lord.

Rehati War Sect: Magnus and 2-8 Daemon Princes/Exalted Sorcerers, that must be upgraded to ML 3. Units from this formation gain Favored of Tzeentch, Eternal Warrior, and ignore Line of Sight for powers while within 18" of Magnus.

Ahriman's Exiles: Ahriman and 2-8 Exalted Sorcerers/Sorcerers. Same bonuses as in the base Grand Coven.

=Auxiliary Formations=
Replace Daemon Engines and the Helbrute entry from Legion Armory with the Heldrake Terror Pack and Helforged Warpack (Note: They do NOT get Favored of Tzeentch!). Enjoy your Psyker Maulerfiend, for all you folks wanting Q'Sal Mirrorfiends. Optionally, add the Terminator Annihilation Force as an Auxiliary.

War Coven: 1 Exalted Sorcerer, 2-4 units of Chosen, and 1-4 units of Chosen or Chaos Terminators. The Terminators must be at least 5 models strong, and may not be substituted for Scarab Occult Terminators. The formation gets Favored of Chaos, Relentless, the Chosen and Chaos Terminators get Brotherhood of Psykers, and the Formation gains the following benefit:
-Cult Affinity: At army creation, select a Cult for units from this formation to be a part of. A Cult has an associated Discipline, which members of that Cult must generate all of their powers from, overriding the need for models with the Mark of Tzeentch to generate all of their powers from one Discipline. Whenever a Psyker from this Formation that is composed of Thousand Sons from one or more detachments manifests a power from that Cult's discipline, all models in the Psyker's Unit gain a bonus that lasts until the start of the Thousand Son's next Psychic Phase. The Cults are: Corvidae (Divination; all models in the unit gain Precision Shots and Precision Strikes), Pyrae (Pyromancy; all Flamers in the unit gain -1 AP), Pavoni (Biomancy; all models in the unit Feel No Pain), Anathean (Telepathy; all models in the unit gain Interceptor), and Raptorae (Telekinesis; all models in the unit gain Hammer of Wrath, or an additional Hammer of Wrath attack if they already had it).

Metamorphic Mob: Replaces the Tzaangor Warherd. 1 Dark Apostle, 2-4 units of Tzaangors, 1-2 units of Tzaangors or Spawn, and 1-2 units of Tzaangors or Possessed. In exchange, they have the following abilities: Favored of Tzeentch, "Run and Charge", and the following rule:
-Nexus of Change: Every unit in this formation has a Special Ability that extends to all units from this formation within 9" of it. The Dark Apostle grants Zealot to all units from this formation within 9", the Spawn have Hit & Run and grant it to all units from this formation within 9" the Tzaangors gain their Bestial Fury all units from this formation within 9", and the Possessed grant their Vessels of Chaos ability to all units from this formation within 9".

Spireguard Besiegers: 2 units of Chaos Cultists, 1-4 Obliterators/Mutilators/units of Chaos Cultists (note: This means you can only take "solo" Obliterators/Mutilators), and 1-3 Defilers/units of Chaos Cultists. The Formation gains Favored of Tzeentch, and each Mutilator/Obliterator you take must be attached to a Chaos Cultist unit from that formation, replacing the unit's Cultist Champion, and no more than one Obliterator/Mutilator can be attached to each Cultist unit; in exchange, they gain the (Character) subtype and Champion of Chaos special rules. Cultists get free Wargear. Defilers within 6" of one or more Chaos Cultists from this formation may direct attacks onto that Cultist/unit as though it had Look Out, Sir!

One thing I wanted to do is a formation for the Hidden Ones but I am unsure how to go about implementing it.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2016, 11:51:10 AM by MagicJuggler »

Offline Wyddr

  • Author Eminence: Hereticus Liber Daemonica | Fio'shas Shi
  • Lazerous Penguin
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5133
  • Country: us
    • My blog about SF/F stuff
  • Armies: Daemons, Imperial Fists, Tau, Ksons, Vostroyans
Re: Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2016, 11:09:39 AM »
I'll chime in on the psychic powers, anyway:

First, let's stop with the requirement for Tzeentch Sorcerers to take spells from the Lore of Tzeentch. Sometimes you're gonna want more than one roll on Heretech, and it seems stupid to hobble the best sorcerers in the galaxy for the "but they're *tzeentch!*" reasoning.

As for your take on the lore itself:

Quote
Tzeentch's Firestorm: Tzeentch's Firestorm is a ML 2 Witchfire with the following profile: Range 24, Strength 5, AP 3, Assault 1, Blast, Warpflame, Inferno: Inferno: A model that the hole of the blast is centered over takes D3 S9 AP 2 hits instead of a single S5 AP 3 hit. For every unsaved wound this attack inflicts on an enemy unit, you may add one model to a friendly unit of Pink, Blue or Brimstone Horrors within 12" of that enemy unit.

This is needlessly fiddly. S5/AP3 seems reasonable and keep the Inferno rule as-is, WC 1. If you want to keep the WC2 idea, make it something like S7/AP4 with a S8/AP3 under the hole. None of this "make brimstone horror" thing. That seems to *require* daemon allies to be worth it, and the Thousand Sons are not *necessarily* all that enamored with daemons in the first place.

Quote
Siphon Magic: There's a quirk in the wording, in that you're placing extra dice on the Psyker, which can be spent as Bonus Warp Charge, but they're technically not Warp Charge. Based on literal RAW, you could technically use this ability to "store" dice across turns for "extra" Warp Charge. However, this probably was not what the writers intended, and if that's the case, this power is useless for any ML 1 Psyker, as they could store the dice...and do nothing with it for the remainder of the turn. Either Siphon Magic could be FAQ'd/clarified to work according to that interpretation (which would also combo well with an improved Tzeentch's Firestorm), or it could be re-worded so that any friendly Psykers within 6" of the Psyker may spend the dice as bonus warp charge.

I'd prefer this two work one of two ways: Either the spell simply adds 1D3+1 dice to the warp charge pool, to be used by anybody (like the old Power of Darkness spell from the Dark Elves of old WHFB) OR you add role a number of dice equal to the number of psychic levels within 12" of the caster and, on a 4+, you get a new Warp Charge die.

I also think that the Ksons Psykers should get the ability to re-roll one failed Warp Charge die per turn as a faction standard. 
 

Offline MagicJuggler

  • Juggling a load of balls
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2012
  • Country: 00
  • Nobody expects the Spanish Ynquisition.
Re: Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2016, 11:50:05 AM »
Made a few updates.

I modified Tzeentch's Firestorm, removing the "more Daemons" effect, dropping the range to 18, and making the center hit one S9 hit instead of D3, and lowering WC to 1. It's basically Smite, but with Warpflame in exchange for the ability to be a short-range Lascannon now and then.

Modified Siphon Magic based on your recommendation!

A few other changes here and there.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

  • The Cause of Diabetes -Captain- Necrontyr Immortal - KoN Veteran - Master of All Diplomacy | Wi-Fi Nomad |
  • Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8808
  • Country: ca
  • Armies: Harlequins, Spiderfang, Bonereapers, Space Wolves
Re: Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2016, 12:02:51 PM »
I think that if the Formations allowed re-rolls to saves of 1, without needing to take max units, that'd make a huge difference.

If all the units (after casting some random blessings), had 3+ inv. saves re-rolling 1's, they'd be very scary with just that change. Having to take 4 sorcerers, 3 units of thousand sons and 3 units of terminators first, is a bit brutal.

Also, the Flamers should be a free upgrade over the inferno bolters. They are slow and purposeful, so the flamers are nowhere near as good anyway.


Harlequin Army Blog

That's not blatant, this is blatant: I'm super happy that I'm playing Austria, the greatest nation in all of Diplomacy!

Azore of Austria

Offline MagicJuggler

  • Juggling a load of balls
  • Senior Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2012
  • Country: 00
  • Nobody expects the Spanish Ynquisition.
Re: Rebalancing and reworking Thousand Sons. C&C appreciated.
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2016, 02:06:41 PM »
I think that if the Formations allowed re-rolls to saves of 1, without needing to take max units, that'd make a huge difference.

If all the units (after casting some random blessings), had 3+ inv. saves re-rolling 1's, they'd be very scary with just that change. Having to take 4 sorcerers, 3 units of thousand sons and 3 units of terminators first, is a bit brutal.

Also, the Flamers should be a free upgrade over the inferno bolters. They are slow and purposeful, so the flamers are nowhere near as good anyway.

A huge difference is putting it lightly. The Sekhmet Conclave would be so much better than the War Cabal that it wouldn't be a contest whatsoever. I actually did some math when I wrote the revised Conclave formation:
A "minmax" formation with this ruleset would be 1680 points. 170 points more for a Heldrake is 1850...except they can only be taken in a Terror Pack, and they are +10 pts due to having to take Daemon of Tzeentch. You could try a Predator or so but that leaves little to actually spend on killiness.

Warpflamers become a free swap for 1k Sons. Your choice of an AP 3 Bolter or a S5 Flamer. Or paying extra to get S5 AP 3 Bolters.

 


Powered by EzPortal