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Author Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!  (Read 138585 times)

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #600 on: May 28, 2005, 01:21:44 PM »
First of all the first list has a Shadowseer wtih 3 weapons, as far as I can tell.  A couple of comments: the Shadowseer really doesn't need Veil of Tears if he is in the Venom.  In addition, I don't understand why you like the Phase Field on the Solitaire.  He is strong but not strong enough to take most units by himself.  Also you took WAY too much stuff on your Troupes.  I rarely take Fell blades at all and they are just too expensive.  I know that you know that now you are better at making lists :), but still some comments.  I like the second list much more, aside from the Phase Field.  However your Shadowseer NEEDS a D-Field.

Back to the revision: I'm worried about Mimes.  It just seems bad to me to have a 10 point model with 4 attacks on the charge and Hit & Fade.  My idea?  Reduce them to 0-1 and add a Harlequin Masque, maybe for just 30 points, that makes Troupes 0-1 and Mimes required.  Thoughts?

Offline Fenix7729

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #601 on: May 28, 2005, 01:32:45 PM »
yeah i do need a D field on the shadow seer and veil of tears was just in case the venom would get shot down... witch it did.  it came to some use though in the game.  yeah i realized i put way to much crap in my troupes too.  im going to make a 1500 point list soon for fighting tau and necrons. (two completely different races)  wish me luck and ill post the list when i make it.
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Offline Manny-Kun

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #602 on: May 28, 2005, 01:39:40 PM »
but i thought the shadow seer couldnt use its psychic power while in the venom  ???
Am i posting my threads in the right place? because i get often confused... :-/

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #603 on: May 28, 2005, 01:42:47 PM »
Back to the revision: I'm worried about Mimes.  It just seems bad to me to have a 10 point model with 4 attacks on the charge and Hit & Fade.  My idea?  Reduce them to 0-1 and add a Harlequin Masque, maybe for just 30 points, that makes Troupes 0-1 and Mimes required.  Thoughts?
  I think it seems a simpler way is just to increase the cost of the MImes. They will still be a lot cheaper than troupers, but there is no need for something this elaborate.


And Manny-kun: there is no such rule, just that some powers will not affect the Venom.

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Offline Manny-Kun

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #604 on: May 28, 2005, 01:46:58 PM »
yeah i ment the effect not effecting the venom. (i knew there was a reason why i took viel of darkness off.)

personally i dont think the mime points should increase. personally... :'(
Am i posting my threads in the right place? because i get often confused... :-/

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #605 on: May 28, 2005, 01:49:04 PM »
What would you suggest to solve this then?

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #606 on: May 28, 2005, 01:52:05 PM »
Rasmus this really ought to remain stickied.

Good luck fenix!  I'd recommend adding in a Venom squad, some DJs, and maybe a Jetbike squad to reach that points value.

Rasmus: I personally think that the cost of the Mimes is good now.  My main caveat is that when combined with Troupes they allow a mix of all-around strong and high-attack troop choices.  That's why I suggested the Masque, which might help to make it well, to be precise, less balanced but more reasonable.

EDIT: I just realized we have over 10000 views on this thread!  I find it fascinating that compared to, for example, Eldar players for a change, which has 73 pages, we still have 1000 more views!

EDIT 2: In fact, that is more than any other post I could find on this entire forum besides the Guys & Girls thread!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2005, 02:06:25 PM by InfinityCircuit »

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #607 on: May 28, 2005, 02:06:34 PM »
In that case I would rather see a scrapping of the Mimes completely, and introducing an alternate force of Harlequins with no GH and no SS; lead by a Master mime, in which all Trouper are mimes, and can infiltrate, like the Troll-list. Other limits would be placed on this list as well.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #608 on: May 28, 2005, 02:09:29 PM »
In that case I would rather see a scrapping of the Mimes completely, and introducing an alternate force of Harlequins with no GH and no SS; lead by a Master mime, in which all Trouper are mimes, and can infiltrate, like the Troll-list. Other limits would be placed on this list as well.

That's an interesting idea.  I was going for that but with a less radical theme.  I think a Shadowseer should still be included, but Master Mimes are HQ and 1+.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #609 on: May 28, 2005, 02:13:08 PM »
So we solve it by making Mimes in the original list 0-1? 0-2? and then introduce the alternate list?

I made something similar with the Squat-list I am making in the Lost&Damned-board.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #610 on: May 28, 2005, 02:45:31 PM »
So we solve it by making Mimes in the original list 0-1? 0-2? and then introduce the alternate list?

I made something similar with the Squat-list I am making in the Lost&Damned-board.

I've got to check that out!  I think that Mimes should be 0-1, but maybe 0-2 would also be appropriate.

By the way I played a second game against the Dark Angels.  This time I lost my Venom's Fusion Gun, 2 Troupers, and 9 Mimes but won.  Once again I find Hit & Fade to be working perfectly.  This game also my Flip Belts finally actually made some saves!  However I have yet to face any Death Guard Terminators...

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #611 on: May 28, 2005, 02:56:12 PM »
Those will be really tough to crack. With a kiss you might score the wound, but he will just save it, and trying to get the wound with a powerweapon (whoch he still has a 33% chance of saving) is really bad.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #612 on: May 28, 2005, 11:44:33 PM »
I played another 400 point game with the same list, beating IG.  Overall I'm really pleased with the list btw, here it is:

6 Troupers w/ Harlequin's Kiss, Power Weapon, Tanglefoot Grenades, Troupe Leader w/ Dread Mask, Tanglefoot Grenades, Venom w/ Fusion Gun, Holo-field
302 points

10 Mimes
100 points

Back on topic: Now I'm starting to wonder about the flip-belt save.  To tell the truth, many of my previous comments ~p. 7 about it were just speculation.  I now wonder if 5+ is too good--hard to belive I know ;).  This is my idea: Make it 6+ against S4 or less, 5+ against S5 or more.  That way it wouldn't make us TOO weak against big boys but still wouldn't be too strong against the rank and file.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #613 on: May 29, 2005, 04:15:10 AM »
But then we are adding complexity back into it. There have been numerous suggestions that have been great for the flipbelt, but none as "smooth" as the invulnerable save. Makingit strength-dependant not only makes it a first in the entire ruleset, but also more complex to use, and this is soemthing we need to avoid.
I have seen a more balanced shift in the trials I have made with the 5+ than the 4+. 4+ was too much. Except against wyches.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #614 on: May 29, 2005, 09:38:10 AM »
But then we are adding complexity back into it. There have been numerous suggestions that have been great for the flipbelt, but none as "smooth" as the invulnerable save. Makingit strength-dependant not only makes it a first in the entire ruleset, but also more complex to use, and this is soemthing we need to avoid.
I have seen a more balanced shift in the trials I have made with the 5+ than the 4+. 4+ was too much. Except against wyches.

True, quite true.  I wasn't really thinking about the complexity issues, just what I saw as somewhat overpowered.  5+ is definetly more balanced than 4+.  However, I wonder nonetheless if it is balanced enough.  I guess the answer is always...more testing!

EDIT: I was just checking out this thread and noticed how many people listed Harlequin weapons like Riveblades and the Harlequin's Kiss as their favorite weapons fluff-wise!  Quite interesting IMHO.

EDIT 2: I played two more games today, both using 400 points.  I'm in a league, as you may have noticed.  In the first against Tau, I rolled over them with minimal casualties--5 Mimes and 2 Troupers.  In the second, we decided to make the Fire Warriors pass all their morale checks.  The results were bad for me.  The Fire Warriors held on for three turns, and in the end I only had a Troupe Leader and a Venom left--but against no Tau.  A close call made closer by my horrendous luck on the invulnerable save.  I think it needs to stay the way it is, as against Orks or Kroot you NEED it.

EDIT 3: I'm running out of special fonts! ;)  One more thing--do the Hallucinogen Grenades count as 2:1 outnumbering when facing a walker for the 'free' glancing hit?
« Last Edit: May 29, 2005, 10:50:10 AM by InfinityCircuit »

Offline Roy

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #615 on: May 29, 2005, 12:21:54 PM »
Harlequins biggest problem is not it's great save.

And flamers are still death to harlequins, are they not?

Offline Manny-Kun

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #616 on: May 29, 2005, 01:09:24 PM »
anything with a templete eeek! >_< but then again it makes sence.. since they only have cover saves :O
Am i posting my threads in the right place? because i get often confused... :-/

Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #617 on: May 29, 2005, 02:16:48 PM »
anything with a templete eeek! >_< but then again it makes sence.. since they only have cover saves :O

As far as I know only Barrage and Flamers negate the cover save. 

The thing about flamers is that with Dispersed Formation, you will kill at most 4 Harlequins.  There are probably still going to be 6 hungry Harlequins left to rip apart whoever has the flamer.  If using a Venom, then you won't get touched by flamers if you pull off your moves right.

The thing I'm really scared of is the Hellhound...:)

EDIT: One more thing to worry about--Deep Striking Flamers or Flamers inside transports.  Both are deadly, but avoidable if you play your cards right.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #618 on: May 30, 2005, 01:52:30 AM »
Normal coversave: anything using the template (the drop) and sometimes barrage.
Harlequin coversave: anything using the template or either-side blast.

This is a balance-thing, of course.

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Offline InfinityCircuit

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Re: Harlequin Revision - EO!
« Reply #619 on: May 30, 2005, 09:26:15 AM »
Normal coversave: anything using the template (the drop) and sometimes barrage.
Harlequin coversave: anything using the template or either-side blast.

This is a balance-thing, of course.

Definetly the correct thing.  Of course now I have another question.  Does the cover save work against blasts that measure radius in inches, for example the explosion of a vehicle?

 


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