Topic: Harlequin Revision - EO!

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

ok how do i do that. i cant see me double posting... am i just been dumb?

sisters have pretty decent long range stuff now, with 4thed and retributors, exorcist and 20 woman units with bolters.

[Roy]

ok how do i do that. i cant see me double posting... am i just been dumb?

Double posting means you make two posts in a row. Basically, if you are the last person to comment a topic, you shouldn't post again. Instead, if you look at your last post, you will find an icon that looks like this: . Click on that, and you can edit that last post, and add whatever else you have to say.

Simple, eh?

[Red Avenger]

Here are my questions that are regarding 4.ed Harlequins:

1.   Eldar allies: Can I have Black Guardians?
2.   Mockingbird: Can I use two mockingbirds to fire a single beam-much like a squad of vibro cannons?
3.   Do I have to take break test if I am using Eldar vehicles (please explain why)?
4.   Can I have Tau  (looted) vehicles (not listed but still am not sure why Harlequins couldn't use them)?

Thanks for your answers!

[Rasmus]

1. No. They are not listed so you can't take them.
2. No, as they are different units they cannot combine like that. Only batteries can do that.
3. They might break down just as easily as any other stolen vehicle. It is not a psychological Break test, but a Breakdown-test.
4. No, not in this version. It might be added later.

Ok, so those eneed clarified, obviously. I might as well fix other errors we have found. Can you remind me what else there was that we needed fixing?

[SeriousCallersOnly]

For what it's worth, as a marine player, I find T8 wraithlord very hard to take down before it gets far too close. A T8 Spiritwalker with holofield would be nigh unstoppable, and for only 140 pts with a BL.T7 seems to be more in keeping with the harlequin thing. I played against a harlequin player using T7 rules and it still took everything I had and two turns to bring down. You can change the weapons, but the power of a wraithlord seems to be the ability to tie up expensive squads in protracted melee, and tearing holes in tanks.

With Rasmus on this one tarrin.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

but with the new ability in 4th ed to hide a powerfist in a squad, combined with marines "no fear" rule which means they wont run from combat, likewise with the orks able to hide a powerclaw in a 30 man unit, so tieing up a unit isn't really an option. there is no way a wraithlord of any type could survive this.  making them t7 only further aid this and supports my argument, as basic marines could hurt it in hand to hand. combine this with the number of lascannon, multimelta, railguns , plasma, etc, and t7 would really hurt this unit.

i propose as i have said before, leave the stats the same, 0-1, price hike, and give it shorter range weapons such as d-cannon and vibro cannon.

You are proposing the dropping of a gerenal special rule to counter the lack of armourpunch in the overall army. This would unbalance the list something fierce, and bump the cost of every Harlequin up to 30 at least. It would also make a lot of powerweapons and kisses redundant, which would be a shame. Adding more options is better than removing their usefulness overall, I think. 

you are kidding right? how did you work out that increase.

ork slugga boy 9 pts, ws 4, t4, 6+ save, 3 attacks, and str pistol, heavy close combat weapon, 30 man unit with hidden claw. need to kill 19 of them, before they might run.
let alone thier elites, and trukk boyz.

the heavy close combat weapon isnt beardy at all. we have same base attacks as the basic ork, and less toughness.

if anything giving all harlequins teh hcc rule whatever weapon they use, would be simple. hcc would add to effectiveness of kisses, make the standard power weapon heavy unit a thing of the past with power weapons been a choice against certain foes.
by doing this we get rid of the need of reroll misses when we charge as what we hit with is more effective. it flavours the army, ( finding chinks and holes in armour) and would stop the beard claim against any special rule, which isn't needed as rules  exist to give teh edge we want to have.

[InfinityCircuit]

hcc would add to effectiveness of kisses, make the standard power weapon heavy unit a thing of the past with power weapons been a choice against certain foes.

Pray tell: why do you want to have everyone take 2 Harlequin's Kisses in their army against the average foe, instead of achieving a balance?

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

then just make it a base rule that they get hcc if using standard weapons, not if they use kisses or power weapons, but just don't charge for it, and remove the charge thing...

remember i am not arguing this as a point on the choice of weapons, more than as a balance to remove the need to have the hit and fade reroll misses when charging, which i think is, and with my playtesting, is grossly overpowered.

personally i am in favour of lots of kisses over power weapons. i think that having a army specific piece of kit should be promoted, but not at the point of having an overpowered army.

the harlequins should be unique, have a distinct fighting style and look the part on the field. But no at the loss of achieving fairness, balance, choice and becoming a one trick army.
the last thing any of us want to see is a beardy army, that people don't like playing becasue theey have no chance agaisnt it.

[Rasmus]

the last thing any of us want to see is a beardy army, that people don't like playing becasue theey have no chance agaisnt it.

  I can think of a few people who would take exception at an entire army with hcc easily enough not to play them at all. The option oto get it for some is one thing, but giving it to an entire army for free (as you did not propse a gerneral point-increase here)  would be a massive dose of cheddar in the eye of many of the people I have played with.

Question; if you faced Marines and he one day stated that all of his marines had gotten S5 for free, the entire army, would you not react? Marines are supposed to be super-strong so it makes sense in the fluff, but would it not kill a lot of the balance of the gameplay?

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

are those players using marine equivalents?

but teh hcc is much less beardy than teh charge reroll misses.

ork get the hcc for free, and people don't say they are beardy, even though they have cheap massive units. HCC with Str 3 is not flangey at all, 

the people i play with think that hitting on a 3+, and there return likely to be a 5+ is pretty good as it is, without the reroll.
the fact that giving HCC  really only affects power armour armies, all but one of which have T4, is fair. still need to wound on a 5+.
already you hit on 3+ and 95% of troops hit back on 5+,
this is much less beardy than giving the reroll misses when charge which is in effect against all armies, not just power armour, so eldar, guard and tau suffer for a rule which you have put in place to deal with high skilled h2h armies.

this is doubly so, as you have now given a 5+ inv dodge in hand to hand for us, so even if the do hit, we still save on every wound. combined with all the other gear, dread masks, tanglefoots ( which i still disagree with), kisses, power blades. come on, step back and look at it.

HCC will only ever be complained at with power armour armies which are abundant, and those who dont like seeing precious marines lose combat.

if you must charge for it, then make it an option for all quins, and at +1 which is teh charge for khornate chainaxes, on a power armoured S4, T4 monster with furious charge, and more attacks than us. that unit can also take power weapons, and teh like.

[InfinityCircuit]

the people i play with think that hitting on a 3+, and there return likely to be a 5+ is pretty good as it is, without the reroll.
the fact that giving HCC  really only affects power armour armies, all but one of which have T4, is fair. still need to wound on a 5+.
already you hit on 3+ and 95% of troops hit back on 5+,
this is much less beardy than giving the reroll misses when charge which is in effect against all armies, not just power armour, so eldar, guard and tau suffer for a rule which you have put in place to deal with high skilled h2h armies.

Not quite.  Enhanced Black Storm Guardians, large Kroot masses, and high Guardsmen numbers make us very sad.

HCC will only ever be complained at with power armour armies which are abundant, and those who dont like seeing precious marines lose combat.

And this accounts for a lot of people--and GW has made it quite clear it is perfectly OK with this.  Should we try to fight it?

if you must charge for it, then make it an option for all quins, and at +1 which is teh charge for khornate chainaxes, on a power armoured S4, T4 monster with furious charge, and more attacks than us. that unit can also take power weapons, and teh like.

I don't quite understand your argument.  World Eaters don't win many games against good generals for a reason--their overpoweredness in close combat is overshadowed by Blood Frenzy.  Should we make Harlequins like that, and remove strategy from one of the most tactical armies in the game?

ork get the hcc for free, and people don't say they are beardy, even though they have cheap massive units. HCC with Str 3 is not flangey at all,

Like World Eaters, Orks have other issues too.

I understand your point--but I disagree with the basis of it.  Just because many people play Marines doesn't mean we should be geared to beat them.  If anything we should have anti-Daemon rules.

[Tango]

As an unofficial army I believe that harlies should not be geared to fight a spacific foe. On the subject of the wraithlord, it is a harlequin unit, and harlequin units should not be able to walk right up to an enimy, and procede to tear it to peices. A harlequin unit should have to use cover to its advantage, and strike at the right moment. I think lowering its toughness would make it fit into the army better.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

Enhanced Black Storm Guardians, large Kroot masses, and high Guardsmen numbers make us very sad.

which are very rare. black guardians are ulthwe only, kroot hordes are rare as tau suits are better, and troop heavy guard tend to be used less than tanks and vehicles.

we cant be good against all armies, no army can be but we need to ensure that we don't seem overpowered against some armies as GW, supposedly likes balance.

I don't quite understand your argument.  World Eaters don't win many games against good generals for a reason--their overpoweredness in close combat is overshadowed by Blood Frenzy. 

They don't win many games becuase they are a flavoured army with no real heavy support and a defined technique,which cannot handle a decent balanced army, not because they are used by bad generals, or face good generals,  But this is why people play them, because they are flavoured and have their difficulties.
It not the winning, its the taking part.


my arguement is that you want to pay +3 points or +5 points according to rasmus to give them HCC when world eaters get it for 1 point with str 4.

orks do have there problems but are one of the best armies and the HCC is one of the reasons for this.

Ok, why didn't GW give the orks reroll misses when they get the waaagh? maybe because its overpowered?

Should we make Harlequins like that, and remove strategy from one of the most tactical armies in the game?

Our troops are fragile to shooting and with low toughness. and with such low numbers we have to be tactical at all times, unlike the run at them tactic world eaters tend to use. They have T4 and power armour, and backed up by demons.
the lack of power armour for us is covered by open topped fast vehicles which we can assualt out of. this balances out any losses we would suffer from shooting and also nullifies speed bump units as we can from assault behind them.

I understand your point--but I disagree with the basis of it.  Just because many people play Marines doesn't mean we should be geared to beat them.  If anything we should have anti-Daemon rules.

I am not saying that should be geared towards marines, but against the softer foes we are too good, the hit and fade rules make this.

instead of discussing the problem i am facing (the overpoweredness of the hit and fade reroll) you are trying to discount something that you have already partially added into the army.

as the list stands i think it is a one trick, assault army that suffers from limited flexibility, as our whole thing is based around getting into hand to hand.

i don't want to bring my quins to games only to have people sigh and mutter under their breath, because a list has been written to make them invincible in hand to hand and we can get there with ease.

look at the kit we have for hand to hand. power weapons, flip belts, kisses, plasma, hallicinogen grenades, high WS, I, A,  all the masks, halving WS of oppenents. do we really need to add more to this area. i think not.

Instead giving choices to add a few extra shots here and there, make the vehicles tricky to hit (crystal targeting matrix), a nice walker, with a nasty guns (D-cannon/Vibrocannon).
i have never envisaged the quins as a rush in and kill before getting shot up army, which is what the are now, more as a few guys bouncing around the field picking off enemy at leisure with the enemy unable to fight back or target them.

maybe rather than the hit and fade, perhaps give them the hit and run base run.

I think it would be a good for every quins player to post on a thread exactly what they want from a army, and how they see the army, in their mind.

[Rasmus]

we cant be good against all armies, no army can be but we need to ensure that we don't seem overpowered against some armies as GW, supposedly likes balance.

   Adding hcc disfavours marines and chaos space marines in particular, but does nothing ot a lot of other armies (eldar, tau, nids and orks, for example) so introducing hcc would work against the concept you are stating; that the army should not seem overpowered against certain armies. Would it not be better to have a general rules that works equally for every opponent you face?

[FarseerAldruan]

It is my view that assault troops aren't made by what weapons they have- it is their statline that does most of the killing.  Banshees have power weapons, sure, but they wouldn't do as well against a large brood of termagaunts as, say, striking scorpions, who don't have power weapons or as much speed, but have staying power.  The harlequin troupes have less numbers, less staying power, and are more expensive than these two on a trouper-to-aspect warrior ration, but are actually better in a lot of ways.  Mounted in a venom, which is less expensive even with upgrades than the standard wave serpent, and is open-topped to boot, which favors assaulty armies, and with amazing WS, I, attacks, special rules, etc., the harlequin trouper has strengths that are perhaps more subtle than a squad of power weapon wielding smurf killers or armored Scorpions, but are just as effective.  My arguement is that they don't need to be improved for little or no points cost, as that would undermine their particular style of play.  We should make these decisions based on allowing ourselves to play with harlies against opponents who criticize our fairness in modifying our own army.

[Rasmus]

I agree. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them overall  would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else.

On that note, since they are warriors in the fight against Chaos does not Preferred enemy; Chaos Slaanesh (Noise Marines, characters with the mark and daemons) be in order?

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

I agree. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them overall  would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else.

On that note, since they are warriors in the fight against Chaos does not Preferred enemy; Chaos Slaanesh (Noise Marines, characters with the mark and daemons) be in order?

then surely with this quote then you agree that reroll misses against everyone is wrong as that is a augmentation. i feel it is. we are already kick ass in combat, why make us more so?

no point on prefered enemy as we hit them on a 3+ already. preferred enemy also doesnt work on characters or mounterous creatures (deaemon lords).

perhaps for the flavour as an anti slannesh army, which is what we are, why not reroll misses against slannesh or hit slannesh on a 2+. The first preferable to the latter.

or reroll misses against chaos in general.

makes us more targeted with fluff  and fighting against other armies we are pretty good at it anyway.

this would mirror daemonhunters in the design of a targeted chaos army, but in a differenmt way as we arent armed with S6 power weapons.

thoughts?

bythe way i shall be away  onholiday with scarce net connect so please don't think you have heard the last from me 

[Rasmus]

then surely with this quote then you agree that reroll misses against everyone is wrong as that is a augmentation. i feel it is. we are already kick ass in combat, why make us more so?

   Allow me to rephrase. The options are enough as the Harlequins are enough. Augmenting them further overall would, as you say, undermine the concept of the Harequins, and make them into something else. The way they are now is fine enough.
   Adding hccs to all of them would also slant them into marine/cron-killers, which would be a shame as they are supposed to be generally good fighters, not just good smurf/cronkillers.

no point on prefered enemy as we hit them on a 3+ already. preferred enemy also doesnt work on characters or mounterous creatures (deaemon lords).

   That's true. Thanks for pointing it out.

[Tarrin the Space Marine]

so what do u think of teh idea to give teh reroll misses for just agaisnt chaos?

i feel we are pretty good at fighting, and that would be the edge needed for our true foe.

and hcc, useful agaisnt marines/crons as you say but agsint other foes it has no real effect as their armour is equal or worse than 4+ so has no effect, more of a leveller i would say.

see you all in a few days

tarrin

[Rasmus]

I think that restricting the current rules back to a single faction would reduce the "awesome fighters"-idea to a very poor version against things with T4/3+ saves. Adding hccs would help with this, but hten we are removing things that work and adding more complexity just to get the same results. We have to try to keep things as managable as possible. The rules for the Harlequins are riddled wit hexceptions and special scenarios allready, and I can't really see why we would want to add more.