Hello again,
Anyone new to this please read my post on p35 of this thread begore commenting as rasmus and i have cut a fair portion of it out
Mime Disruption: Why would they be so much worse at it than the Alaitoc snipers?
Youre right, but make them too availiable and everyone will take them and basic quin units will fall out of favour. They need a limit, much as teh aliatoc are limited by other available kit in thier list.
Looted vehicle: The effort on stealing a mobile vehicle ....Also it was in the original list, and as I am sucker for history it was included here as well.
Fair enough.
Hit and Fade: The problem is that with S3 the "greatest cc-army in the game" is really quite bad... It needs to make a basic trouper a worthy cc-foe even without the support of characters or gear.
I disagree. By having the additions you have made and those currently thier i feel that any harlequins unit can already beat any force in the game. The array of kisses, and power weaponry that we can have, as well as the addition of heavy CCW's mean that we can put a dent in most armies. I feel that as we are already hitting every unit in teh game, expect wyches on a 3+, and 95% of the time going first, rerolling misses is a bit good. And with our kit availiable to aid chasing enemies down we should win most of teh time.
I would rather we get rid of this, and have the Heavy CC option for all our troops at base cost, as a standard skill. That way we dont run into the problem when we face T5 2+/3+ save troops, which in my opinion are teh only ones who really give us trouble.
I think its too powerful by far.
Familiars: why? no thanks?.....lose the chaff. Well, I am not dropping this as a big part of the revision is about including that which the Harlequins used to have. There used to be Benathai, so there are Benathai. If you don't like them then do as the lot of people not liking the Spiritwalker; don't use it.
Fair point
Flight Belt vs phase field: Again, these were in the original list, and therefore included. Flight-belts were different then, but they had a place in there
Perhaps give them the choice. Flight belts for +10 a figure. Phase Field + 7 a figure. thats way broader options.
Tanglefoot Grenades: Yikes....The points you are investing in a single trouper with all of those upgrades is horrendous and I would be shocked if you could not make a cc-monster with the same points in any other army out there. And Tanglefoot does not halve initative in combat, just for running people to ground.
I realise this, but do we honestly need it. we already beat most armies by +2-3 I at basic troups and with characters we thrash them. To have a foe then half Init.again after they have had to roll leadership, at -1 , probably on 3D6 is ludicrous. It is truely broken. We are practically saying that if you lose to teh quins in H2H you WILL run. These grenades will be the sole possession of characters who buy them cheap and will use them as independant characters alongside troops. therefore you get this skill for basically 4 points.
As in this roll there are no automatic passes or fails it is impossible for most troops to win this roll against a solitaire.
8+1 = 9, which cannot be beat by anyone with base initiative of 3 or 4, as 2 + 6 = 8.
The stastistical probability of passing against a basic trooper is way to high. As this is now such an important part of the game and you can kill whole units with ease i think any list will have GW say no.Totally unfair, and game breaker, needs to be looked at.
My suggestion is not a breaker as it costs, but is very useful.
Death Jesters: Move back to Elites... This is what I commented above.
The 9 DJ army will still be favourable if you make spiritwalker T7, see comments below. I think that they are fine in elites.
The arguement you use for this is basically the same arguement you use for placing eldar allies in, and having mimes If people want to have a DJ heavy army let them, but they lose the options of characters liek master mime and solo. By puuting them in heavy they can still have 9 but also can take the kickass elites as well.
Eldar Allies: Why are these needed? They make the harlequins list as it stands into another eldar army. The beauty of a harlequins force is it ability to be small, fast moving and elegant and two units of guardians and transports just ruin that image. Harlequins would not bring trainees of such poor quality along. They are, again, included for completeness. The Eldar and DE can
bring the Harlequins with them, so it makes sense the opposite should
be true too.[/color]
Completness? I think my comment still stands. Harlequins would select the best of the best. Not just common meat shield guardians. My view is either scrap these altogether or give the quins access to 0-1 aspect as a troops. Bansees or swooping hawks would fit in perfectly.
It is more about the Eldar/DE fighting alongside the Harlequins than the Harlequins trying to recruit them, as outlined in the "Sneaking off to join the circus"-rule. Again, if you don't feel they fit in then just don't use them.
I can understand your reasons and i partially agree. But doesnt this kind of move away from the quins turning up where and when they like to fight seperate. If a guardian can find them this easy surely their evil powers of chaos gribbliness can as well. i think if you have to include this, for posterity sake make 0-1, or cannot be taken as the required complement of two troops.
Mimes: Too cheap and basic troops choice which will push out the more expensive harlequins unit.
change to 21 points, remove fell blade option, and make 0-2. Lower weapon skill by one to 4, lose 1 attack, to one basic (not fully trained), keep the rest the same as CJ entry. Add a deep strike option to the standard of the lictor (assault out of it).
So basically pay three times the guardiancost for a deepstriking banshee without powerweapon? That makes very little sense indeed.
Ah, but the ability to assault out of deep strike more than pays for itself. a general can use these troops to tie down enemy and remove heavy support units. Imagine ann approaching amrine army finding that its heavy suuport has been toasted by a squad of mimes who appear in cover, move, shoot neurodisruptors then assualt the big guns.
Its a risky venture, but points must be paid to compenstae for such a good power. Its not about comparisons, its about fitting points costs to skills and fluff.
Spiritwalker: Why change the T to 7? 99% or people will have wraithlord convos, so keep the same.....It was originally intended for T7 in CJ 44 but was mangled in editing. It is supposed to balance the coversave and armour, and stop a bit of the cheese. If it was T8 with 3+/4+-cover then it would need to be 200 points to balance against other such elements in the game. And it is 0-1 with a prerequisite Shadowseer...
Firstly 0-1 is good.
The drop to T7 makes it far softer, S4 weapons can now hurt it and bigger guns are far more effective, let alone the hidden powerfist in a squad of marines or ork boyz. with only one availiable your enemy no longer fears it.
By Upping its cost, and giving shorter range weapons, <24" instead of longer. you balance out the T8 and cover save as it has to be used as a close support option more, bringing it into the range of more firepower. I think that this really needs to be adreesed, but i don't see lowering teh toughness is the way forward. I find that there are enough big guns around which can take downa a wraithlord, most of which render the 3+ armour save useless. And with the precedent set bu assualt cannon, we are forever grateful that we are tough enough to bounce bolter fire, else or 0-1 blokey is a sitting duck.
Riveblade: Two handed, Rending (+15). Cannot be combined with powerblades. The Harlequins have never had a twohanded weapon ever.
And? Are you telling me the idea of a quin gracefully taking apart foes witha two handed sword isn't cool.
The Revision is not about adding things like that. It is about trying to use the original list with its older additions and make it playable in 4th ed.
Thats very blinkered. Are you trying to make a playable army list or bring the old ones up to date. I am not trying to offensicve with taht quote, jut trying to gauge whats the aim is. If we want an offical list that is playable certaiin additions need to be aded and changes made to bring us up to date in the 40k arms race.
I am sure ceratin players would love anti install kit, kit which helps agaisnt shooting, such as teh tau stelth suits etc.
I think thats this is the perfect time to present an upto-date codex which is workable.
Pistols: Give me twin link baby....This sets a rule-precendent, something we have been trying to avoid.
The precedent has already been set (seraphim) and i think it would be a way to give people a chance to move away from characters must have a sword and a pistol. As you are FoFing all the time the point of getting more guns is fairly lost.
Thats if you FoF. You don't have to you know
perhaps you want your deep striking mime sergeants to have this, or want to add flavour to your force., or when you get close enough to not have to fleet of foot ( say after you have moved out of cover into charge range) you want to be able to shoot , rather than rely on a sword.
The figures have such nice paired gun combos it would be silly not to at least playtest this.
Stormglove: (15) (25 for pair). Allows re-rolled to wound for pair.
But is you compare just the sheer size and power of the lighttningsclaw to the stormglove it is a completely different weapon. Also the stormglove adds something unique to the army as they are now; why make them more bland?
I think you misunderstood me keep the stormglove abilities just make the option of pairing. Not a bland idea. Makes the possibility of a character nails against oher characters but also very specialised.
Displacement field: Independent characters only. May always move up to 6" in assault (Jet pack rule) 15pts. Useful for death jesters, but costs a fair price.
Displacement-fields were common in RT and 2nd ed, but did something else. I can't quite see the use of this, and it would be a bit of a cheese-bite as the thing would get around the Heavy-notation on the EML.
you spend 80 points on one guy only to have him move out to shoot, miss and then be a sitting duck. if we sty it cannot be combined with a phase field then we have a winner.
This is not different to a tau crisis suit jumping out firing 4 str7 weapons and hiding. granted its bigger, but it has better armour and drones. we don't. and they can be independants and cost about teh same.
The EML thing is still a pain as you need to be out already to shoot the damn thing.
its back to the arms race thing.
hope these comments help, and try to get my point across. I dont want to be having to play witha ridiculously overpowered army, s i love a challenge, but i think certain changes need to be made to make us a 4th ed army in all senses, not just a throwback to the old days.
ever thought about vortex grenades?
heheheh
best regards
tarrin