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Author Topic: Chaos Army for review (NM)  (Read 1247 times)

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Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Chaos Army for review (NM)
« on: May 1, 2005, 03:44:22 AM »
OK before I go and ask what you all think, heres a few formalates
1) I'm a newbie
2)It's a theme army
3)the faster the better
 OK I did a little history back ground (will rule mods) so give it a read.

Tears of the Emperor- A Chaos Space Marine Chapter

 The Tears of the Emperor is a direct result of crossing members of the Night Lords and the Alpha Legion. They rely on infiltration of a populous by Cultist before performing lighting raids to seize control of the local government. Tears of the Emperor members may be planet bound for years before the coo is attempted, creating plenty of time to penetrate the defenses of the planet.
 The Tears of the Emperor follows the Mark of Chaos Undivided. Their preferred method of attack is infiltration and the use of blitzkrieg attacks. As a result the force organization chart is a little changes to reflect this.

HQ-No Change
Elite- The Tears of the Emperor have a very limited amount of Terminators. So only Aspired Champions can be in Terminator armor but no more than ten can ever be fielded. Instead of the armor, the Chosen can take a Chaos Space Marine bike at the normal cost. All other elite choices are unchanged.
Troops-Cultist. The Tears of the Emperor find it more useful to convince cultist to follow them then it is to summon (unstable) daemons. To represent this Cultist can be choose as a troop choice and daemon troops can only be summoned if there are two cultist squads fielded (2:1).
 All other troop choices are unchanged
Fast attack- Raptors do not have a  limitation. As with the troop choice demon Calvary can only be taken if there is two fast attack choices fielded (2:1).
Heavy- As with the Terminator, there is a shortage of Dreadnaughts and Defilers. A limit of 0-1each is imposed. No other changes.

Marks of Chaos,
Gifts, and Physics: All are unchanged.
Prefer enemies: White scars and the Raven wing.

OK. The army I will ask for help is the 2nd platoon of the Army. It is only 1500 (ish points) where the whole army is 3000.

HQ
Sors LT
Mark of TZ
Minor psi
Disc of TZ
inferno bolts
furious charge
power weapon
gifts of chaos       Total 150

Retinue
Chosen
 all Asp Champ
Mark of TZ
Minor psi
Disc of TZ
inferno bolts
furious charge
power weapon
4 troops              Total 380

Elite
 none at this time. This is one of the problems that I need help with.

 Troops
Chaos SM
1 flamer
1 missile launcher
havoclauncher
rhino
10 troops            Total  231

Cultest
  Frag
  mark undiv + icon
Cultest champion
  combobolter
All Scouts            Total160

Fast attack
Raptors
furious charge
mark undiv
3 flamers             Total 338

Heavy
Havocs
4 miss lauc
Rhino w/havoc lauc  Total 239

Total Army list 1508
 This army is to lighting quick where the 1st platoon is to be mechanized.That is why I have tried to keep to the jump pack mobility. The HQ I know is hefty and the heavy is a little lacking.
 Any help would be great. Thanks

Offline World Eater for ever

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #1 on: May 1, 2005, 06:32:05 AM »
I think this is rather good. I like the background, as it is quite different from the usual stuff. I also like your large HQ. Large HQs are great because they always do insane things in battles. I'm not sure your havocs need to be in a Rhino, as the missiles can reach all the way across the board.
Battle Record:

World Eaters: W6 D3 L10
Divine Exorcists: W0 D0 L2
Daemonhunters: W0 D0 L1

Offline shmee shmee

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #2 on: May 1, 2005, 06:35:22 AM »
i dont reaLLY  like the whole concept of raptors, they are far to flimsy and too expensive. i would go for furies as they get loadsa streangh 5 intiative 5 attacks and are fast and cheap, all round good
« Last Edit: May 1, 2005, 06:36:44 AM by shmee shmee »
it was harry...

Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #3 on: May 1, 2005, 11:22:44 AM »
Great. The Reason behind the Raptors is that I have a thing for raptor( I cut the Asp Champ for them as he was too much. +4 S, +1I, Assault 2 weapon as well as other goodie)
 The Havoks( ;D) are in a Rhino be cause of mobility (not the cell phone kind). The idea was too launch a barrage-scoot to the corners-barrage-Scoot.

 The one problem that I did notice after I made it is that the back ground claims that TotE is Chaos Undiv, but is lead by a Mark of TZ ,W.T.H. The reason for this is pure fluff. the SOR LT is not the Company leader but is in charge to 2nd Platoon (as well as creating a "Seer Council) . The Company (chaos) lord (Undiv) is in  charge of the company and 1st Platoon. Make sense?

Offline Molotov Shadowhunter

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #4 on: May 2, 2005, 12:10:19 PM »
i dont reaLLY  like the whole concept of raptors, they are far to flimsy and too expensive. i would go for furies as they get loadsa streangh 5 intiative 5 attacks and are fast and cheap, all round good

The problem with furies is that the lack any decent save, sure its inv. but a bit weak and instability can really hurt with them.  :-\
The raptors generaly have a bolt pistol and ccw so they have 2 attacks anyway and giving them furious charge accomplishes the same as the furies but with the added advantage of some better stats and special weapons.
3 flamers is gonna pack a real punch especially vs. hoarde armies, but for each flamer you lose a cc attack - not a problem but flamers don't always do well esp. versus spread out squads.
But yeah you can get 2 furies for the price of one raptor though. depends on how you're gonna use them.  ;)

Do remember that one of your elites slots is already used because of your retinue (pg24 chosen entry).
I find using obliterators is good use of elites, but if your want them to be fast then either:

A) Use possesed and give them daemonic flight ( ;D) or
B) Give some possesed a transport and strength or talons.

Nice concept stuff though  :D
« Last Edit: May 2, 2005, 12:11:51 PM by Molotov »

Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #5 on: May 2, 2005, 09:12:57 PM »
Hang on.I thought that because it was a retinue and the it followed the HQ choice that it formed a "unit".There for a single HQ not an elite. (am I wrong? if so thats ok.( while in game play "My Sor LT is now going to leave his retinue here to mop up and move over here to help out these clowns"))

 I am also surprise that no one has commented on the 5 to 10 rapid fire blast followed with 5 power weapons in my HQ (and the fact that there is five minor psi it the same unit)

 Also the numbers for the Raptors was not mentioned but the total was 10 in a unit ( I might break this to 2 units of raptors and have 2 flamer/2 plama guns or pistols per squad)

 The Possessed are part of 1st Platoon. (i'll post the list later) HQ is UNDIV so I took mark of Khorne for the Poss(might as well double up where I can). K-chain axe, flight and eight to the squad. Should be good.

Thanks for the advice.

« Last Edit: May 2, 2005, 09:15:32 PM by Chaos swirles »

Offline Newtype

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #6 on: May 2, 2005, 09:27:48 PM »
"However many chosen are included in the army they count as a single elites choice on the force organisation chart."

Unlike Imperial space marine armies, in chaos armies your retinues take up an elites choice, thats the down side. The upside is that you can divide them up into up to three different "units" and they still count as one choice. for instance, lets say for the sake of arguments that your army is large enough to include 30 chosen, you can have a 10 man squad accompany your chaos lord as a retinue, then have another 10 accompany your chaos Lt. as the same. and you can still field a regular squad of 10 terminators and they all count as ONE elites choice on the FoC, even though you have 3 units.

Think of it like this, you buy your chosen all as one unit, gear them up, then divide them up among your lords and other squads that have them. you dont actually buy three units of chosen. This is also why you can upgrade any chosen to be an aspiring champion, so you can have champions for all three units.

Oh also if you are playing straight out of the book chaos, and not using night lords rules or something, you cant split those raptor up into multiple units. thats what the "0-1" in the army list entry means, you can only ever use one unit of raptors. I go with a unit of 9 with three flamers myself. you can score a LOT of hits on a unit with three flamers. jump close, burn, assault, hit & run, rinse and repeat.
« Last Edit: May 2, 2005, 09:35:26 PM by Newtype »
"Kill a thousand men and they will hate you. Kill a million men and they will queue to face you. but kill a single man and they will see monsters and devils in every shadow. Kill a dozen men and they will scream and wail in the night, and they shall feel not hatred, but fear."

Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #7 on: May 2, 2005, 09:57:01 PM »
Rinse an repeat thats funny   :D

 Choose: WOW (what else can I say)
 Raptors: From the book yes I know the 0-1 rule. but because I am creating a theme army I can. (see fluff in the first post)
 Also can an Asp Champ take a servo arm? Its listed in the war gear and there is no menton of a limit to IW.

Offline Newtype

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #8 on: May 2, 2005, 11:37:31 PM »
Rinse an repeat thats funny   :D

 Chosen: WOW (what else can I say)
 Raptors: From the book yes I know the 0-1 rule. but because I am creating a theme army I can. (see fluff in the first post)
 Also can an Asp Champ take a servo arm? Its listed in the war gear and there is no menton of a limit to IW.

Yeah chosen are nifty. Good unit, reasonable points cost, lots and lots of options. One of the best all around units in the game I think.

Aye the servo arm is limited to Iron Warriors only, but then raptors are limited to 0-1 unless you are using the night lords rules. As you say, it's a theme army, go nuts with it. I think theyre a bit overpriced myself.
"Kill a thousand men and they will hate you. Kill a million men and they will queue to face you. but kill a single man and they will see monsters and devils in every shadow. Kill a dozen men and they will scream and wail in the night, and they shall feel not hatred, but fear."

Offline CD

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #9 on: May 3, 2005, 09:07:32 PM »
I'm not a big fan of "make-your own rules" lists, so my review isn't going to be terribly detailed, but one thing strikes me as a terrible mistake: the inclusion of Chosen, without them being basic Terminators.

Regular chosen are fairly poor. With their only defining traits being their larger amount of heavy weapons and the ability to take Special Icons, they're a pretty poor choice to start with...

..And then people decide to make units of aspiring champions...

The Aspiring Champion unit is by far the biggest recurring mistake I see in army lists. The unit consists of very few models and takes up around a quarter of your army. Not only that, but your unit in particular is one of the more poorly composed AC units I've seen (I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm trying to help, especially since you're a newer player). Minor Psychic powers, to be frank, just suck, and inferno bolts are one of the most overpriced upgrades for ACs, especially with pistols. Adding Furious Charge and Power Weapons just further adds to the expense and ideal versatility of the unit, but I guarantee that any player who knows what they're doing will shoot that unit down in a turn, easily. It's 5 models that are all just as easily killed as a regular Chaos Space marine.

While having a single unit like that as your HQ can be fine (minus the minor power he's got and furious charge and plus Daemonic Aura), an entire unit of them is one of the worst army composition decisions you can make. I highly recommend against it. You'll occasionally get newer players telling you that their AC units are great because they "get 25 S6 I5 powerweapon attacks on the charge!" (Mark of Khorne, Daemonic Strength, Mutation, Power Weapon and Furious Charge), but in reality that unit will never make it into close combat, much less get even one or two models into base contact with their enemies. I find it hard to fathom a player dumb enough not to shoot at the unit, but said chaos players don't seem to understand that, nor do they feel very good when they actually field their 'super'-unit.

Anyway, as said, I'm not making a big review of the whole list, I just wanted to make a big point of how poor chosen aspiring champion units are. Chosen as Terminators (though not Terminator ACs) are a good buy, with good versatility, deep strike, killing power, the ability to take chainfists and reaper autocannons.. all of the good stuff. Chosen Aspiring champion units lack resilience and effectiveness, and cost way too much to boot. I suggest that they be immediately removed, for your sake. :)

Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #10 on: May 6, 2005, 06:46:39 PM »
I not going to start a war here but that last comment has been eating at my guy...

1)
Quote
I'm not a big fan of "make-your own rules" lists, so my review isn't going to be terribly detailed, but one thing strikes me as a terrible mistake: the inclusion of Chosen, without them being basic Terminators.
Don't forget to have fun. "A make your own rules" army sometimes have great personality and for some players having an army that looks cool, does what they want means more then an all out killing force. Anyone can have 30 Choosy Termys in their army. While that is a powerful army I,myself,personally, find it rather boring and uncharacteristic.No rmal SM fluff always state that they is a limited amount of termy but CSM have an unlimited supply? come on now. My "make your own rule army " does not have any fancy powers or equipment, and what I gave I also took resulting in balance.
2)..
Quote
Not only that, but your unit in particular is one of the more poorly composed AC units I've seen (I'm not trying to be insulting, I'm trying to help, especially since you're a newer player). Minor Psychic powers, to be frank, just suck, and inferno bolts are one of the most overpriced upgrades for ACs, especially with pistols. Adding Furious Charge and Power Weapons just further adds to the expense and ideal versatility of the unit
Yeah but it looks cool and I was having fun.
  I'll take your advice and change my list. I don't think that I will change the theme army as I am having fun with that whole concept. I under stand that you are tiring to help a newbie (by the way I have been playing for 5 yrs just not CSM). So I thank you for your time and input but winning a battle is not through strength alone.

Matthew






« Last Edit: May 6, 2005, 06:49:59 PM by Chaos swirles »

Offline Kenaz the Red Returns

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2005, 05:34:48 PM »
in this post I had relisted my theme army but was advised not to seiral post. I have stated a new thread instead. Thanks
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 05:53:44 PM by Chaos swirles »

Offline Aronious

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Re: Chaos Army for review (NM)
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2005, 05:41:52 PM »
You shouldn't make serial posts, unless you run out of space. Use the edit button.

The squad of Aspiring Champions reminds me of a time my neighbor (who plays Chaos) had a squad of Aspiring Champions in a Rhino (before BGB) and it got blown to bits, and half my horde when a Demolisher shot it to hell.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2005, 05:46:44 PM by Aronious »

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