Topic: ''Fixing'' Lictors?

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

I think the problem is with what role the Lictor is supposed to have.  Its seems like Raveners can already do most of what a Lictor does, so far as deepstriking and disrupting shooters.  Genestealers or MCs are better as simple cc-troops.  So what does a Lictor really contribute that no other unit can?

Making the Lictor more durable, more offensive, more independent, or just cheaper doesn't really change that problem, it would just make him a more attractive alternative to choices that already exist.

The Lictor does have a few unique abilities, such as the Pheremone Trail and Feeder Tendrils, but neither of those really give him much definition.

Other then the fact that NOTHING else in the nid army can deep strike into terrain and essentially be safe from dropping in off the board, there isnt much. (this alone is enough for me.) does your opponents battle plan go haywire (at least a little ) when you pull the raveners out of your case and set them on the table? Mine dont, but every time I pull out a lictor, they swear at me.  Hell, when I dont use lictors, I still pull the model out and slap it on the table as if waiting for deployment, just to mess with my opponents head a little. They work even when I dont bring them (which isnt very often)

No. My opponents aren't remotely scared of them. They've seen the statline you see.

"Oh crap, he's just deployed a lictor into a piece of terrain. Good thing I'm nowhere near it and it's too slow to reach any of my stuff it's remotely qualified to attack".

Oh, and there really isn't much a lictor is qualified to attack anyway. A model which dies when in combat with an imperial guard heavy weapons squad really isn't impressive, especially in a Tyranid army

[XCrusaderguy01]

No. My opponents aren't remotely scared of them. They've seen the statline you see.

"Oh crap, he's just deployed a lictor into a piece of terrain. Good thing I'm nowhere near it and it's too slow to reach any of my stuff it's remotely qualified to attack".

Oh, and there really isn't much a lictor is qualified to attack anyway. A model which dies when in combat with an imperial guard heavy weapons squad really isn't impressive, especially in a Tyranid army

Yea.... the first thing my buddy sent his lictor after was a squad of my terminators. Needless to say, the lictor went *splat.* He was quite disappointed, as rending stuff is usually the way to deal with termies. I told him what targets he should go for, and his spirits picked up for the use of his lictor again in the next game. It was promptly defeated by a 6 man scout sniper squad with no veteran sergeant. Yeah..... I'm not really sure what their viable targets are.

[Siege_TF]

A team of three can team up and... Wait, they might not deploy together since they operate independantly and could deepstrike one per turn, and their pheremone trails don't work on one another because Tyranids are nothing if not disorganized...

Frankly I wouldn't use them in games smaller than 1700 points. Maybe a team of three could gribble enemy Walkers that don't have dreadnaught close combat weapons - sentinels, war walkers, dreads without DCCWs, Kanz (assuming the new Orkz can even take Kanz without CCWs), etc.

Of course, that's if at least two of the damned things decided to pop up on the same turn.

[Benandorf]

Yeah..... I'm not really sure what their viable targets are.

Super expensive tanks with AV10 in the back which are facing away from terrain, but still nearby.  Maybe.

That's just it... Lictors can actually get bogged down and killed by FIRE WARRIORS without a huge stroke of luck for the tau player.  They have no practical use.

Psychological warfare is great until you have opponents who actually know your army.  Then they don't mean a damn thing.

[rightfire]

Lictors should be given a 3+ save, toughness 6, Monstrous Creature status, calvary movement, No scatter when deepstriking, and 5 attacks.

Rightnow Lictors cost like 2 Ravenors, but don't have calvary movement, have 1 less attack than a ravenor, and dies to Imperial guard.   

[XCrusaderguy01]

Lictors should be given a 3+ save, toughness 6, Monstrous Creature status, calvary movement, No scatter when deepstriking, and 5 attacks.

Thats quite a bit of a boost for no points increase. Again, as this thread has pointed out, they shouldn't be main-battle units. They merely need enough of a boost to make their intended disruption role actually work.

3+ save is a lot for nids in general, not to mention a lot better than the original. Perhaps 4+, or allowing them to take EC. This isn't all that important though, as this doesn't keep them safe from hidden fists. I'd prefer a T increase instead.

But not to T6. Thats quite beefy, and there's no way you can justify him being as tough as a hive tyrant or carnifex. All he needs is T5 to avoid the hidden fists that devour him so readily.

Ditto for MC status. Lictors are not huge assault organisms, nor are they on par with the other two MCs in terms of mass. Also, a stealthy monstrous creature is practically an oxymoron. Perhaps give him power weapons, like the broodlord (and only maybe at that).

No scatter I agree with, along with increased movement of some kind (maybe fleet, maybe cavalry, etc). A creature who's only job is showing up in the midst of the enemy for an ambush can't be scattering away into uselessness, especially if its so slow that it can't move around in their ranks and cause trouble. These emphasizes his stealth, ambush, and disruptions roles.

5 attacks is a lot, perhaps 4.

[overmind2000]

A team of three can team up and... Wait, they might not deploy together since they operate independantly and could deepstrike one per turn, and their pheremone trails don't work on one another because Tyranids are nothing if not disorganized...

Frankly I wouldn't use them in games smaller than 1700 points. Maybe a team of three could gribble enemy Walkers that don't have dreadnaught close combat weapons - sentinels, war walkers, dreads without DCCWs, Kanz (assuming the new Orkz can even take Kanz without CCWs), etc.

Of course, that's if at least two of the damned things decided to pop up on the same turn.

just a quick confirmation here: I was under the inpression that whilst lictors operated independently of each other withing the same brood; that for deepstriking you rolled once for the whole elite slot - ie all the brood at once - and thus all three came on at the same time, though in different places if you wish - am I wrong?

[Benandorf]

Lictors should be given a 3+ save, toughness 6, Monstrous Creature status, calvary movement, No scatter when deepstriking, and 5 attacks.

That's way the hell too much.  It turns them from amphetamine parrot to gods.

And no, overmind, you roll for each one individually.  As if they were three separate broods.

[overmind2000]

Thanks for the clarification!
And I also agree - those changes not only make the lictor too good, but also mean that it loses its fluff as well.
Personally I see the changes need as being split in two - either make the lictor harder to kill, or make him kill much quicker and harder - so there is less to kill him.
Either change would improve the unit and also remain in the fluff zone - a price lowering would also be great as well.

[Midnight Walker]

And no, overmind, you roll for each one individually.  As if they were three separate broods.

Are you sure about that? I always played it the same as overmind. They all take up a single Elite slot after all.

[YuenglingDragon]

It's not very specific about that is it?  Personally, I think it depends on whether or not you think placed independently means they can be placed outside of coherency or completely independently including reserve rolls.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

And no, overmind, you roll for each one individually.  As if they were three separate broods.

Are you sure about that? I always played it the same as overmind. They all take up a single Elite slot after all.

Citing the IG codex as precedent gives you Benandorf's point. According to the Dex they take up a single Elites slot but are considered independent of each other in all other respects. The IG Codex mentions a similar phenomenon relating to Deepstriking squads and Platoon Command squads (which all take up a single Troops slot in the same fashion). They specifically deploy seperately and therefore deepstrike seperately as well

[overmind2000]

but surly a refrence in the IG codex and not in the main rule book, means that that rule applies to the IG only and is not a cover all races rule. The Tyranid codex certainly makes no mention about deepstriking and independents.
infact - going from memory here codex in a crate - don't the independent refrences for the zoanthrope state that they deploy at the same time, but are treated as independent units and thus do not need to be deployed together

[Benandorf]

Yes, they are deployed at the same time just like an IG platoon is, because they are one troop slot.

But if they were deep struck (striked?), they would be sent in individually.

Lictors "operate independently during the game", which would mean they are effectively individual units, and individual units roll separately for their deep strike.

[ichigo4546]

I think that they should make the lictors faster. in the codex it says that they apperar and dissapear without warning.  But they can only move 6 inces like normal troops and they dont even have a feet of claw roll.

[Orunlu]

I think that they should make the lictors faster. in the codex it says that they apperar and dissapear without warning.  But they can only move 6 inces like normal troops and they dont even have a feet of claw roll.

However they can appear, assault and then can scamper off 3d6? in whatever direction they want. Which represents appearing and disappearing without warning. Dont get me wrong Im not a fan of the lictor but I do feel that this is one of his good traits.

[Khodexus]

The Imperial Guard have special deployment rules because one selection can be many squads.  That is not the case with Lictors, or any other army which has squads of units which 'opperate independantly'.

A single brood of Lictors MUST be rolled for together when deepstriking, just as a squad in a dedicated transport MUST be rolled for together when in reserves, even though they do not have to deploy together.

The same goes for things like Dark Eldar Heamonculi (which can be bought in groups of three, but still are rolled for as a group in Reserves), and any other army selection which does not have a special rule dictating otherwise.

If you roll seperately for your Lictors, you're doing it "illegally".  Just some food for thought there.

[Orunlu]

Here as well Im a little confused I was under the impression that you could do it either way since they can operate by them selves you could bring them in by them selves or as a group. hmmm would be good to understand how this works just incase I use them again in the future.

[DJBtod]

make lictors monsterous creatures and they would be fixed. period.

~dan

[YuenglingDragon]

make lictors monsterous creatures and they would be fixed. period.

~dan

I don't think that's a good plan.  I wouldn't want their size to change.