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Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« on: November 20, 2006, 08:19:37 PM »
I picked up the nids codex a couple days ago because I have always been interested in them, and I'd like to try a swarm army for a change. I'd probably go with hivefleet Kraken because I like their colors. My goal is to make a model heavy, assault army designed for killing MEQs. I've made a list that I believe is what I'd need. However, since this is my first nids list, I'm sure it could use lots of improvements. So please let me know what I should change.

HQ:

Hive Tyrant. Scything talons x2, Winged, Warp Blast, Toxin Sacs.

Elites:

4 Warriors. Rending Claws, Leaping, Scything Talons.

4 Warriors. Rending Claws, Leaping, Scything Talons.

Troops:

20 Gaunts. Fleshborer.

20 Gaunts. Fleshborer.

15 Hormagaunts. Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands(I), Leaping, Toxin Sacs.

15 Hormagaunts. Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands(I), Leaping, Toxin Sacs.

4 Rippers swarms.

12 Genestealers. Rending claws, scything talons.

Heavy Support:

3 Zaonthropes. Warp blast, Synapse.

2 Carnifex. Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Reinforced Chitin.

Total: 1838 Pts.

I'll admit, the thought of buying and painting 100 models doesn't seem very appealing. I'm definitely not going to buy all that at once.  I'll probably wait a couple months before I buy anything anyway. But I'd still like to know what you think. I want to make sure I have something decent going before I put any money into it.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2006, 02:12:37 PM by .:Tr@ceR:. »
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Offline Benandorf

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2006, 09:22:03 PM »
Welcome to the nids!

I am not going to go through this list, because of one big thing: There are no specialists.  It is a newbie mistake, but with nids, each brood must do one thing.  So the Hive Tyrant is a waste of points, as are the warriors, and the carnifi.

Also, numbers over upgrades.  So re-make the list remembering that, and I shall critique it.  A few hints to get your started, though: Don't upgrade Hormagaunts, Termagants, and genestealers (with a few exception for genestealers).  Wing that hive tyrant, and put nothing on it except two Scything Talons, and melee carnifi are rarely worth their points.

I look forward to your next list.
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Offline Scalu

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2006, 12:08:26 AM »
For the Hive Tyrant, get another gun instead of the Scything talons.  Any gun but the spinefist will do.  The TL-Deathspitter helps him crack open medium to lightly armoured vehicles (most skimmers) which can really help support your assault'ish army.

The leaping warriors need Rending claws...  The rending ability will greatly increase their effectiveness...  You don't get many rending claws on the new warrior sprues, so consider using the genestealer ones if you have extra.  Also, I would drop the fleshborers and get scything talons, since if they are in range to shoot, they are in range to charge (unless you shoot and kill the units in charge range).

The Lictor is tricky to use.  He can make a great fire-magnet if you deepstrike him in hard cover, especially if he is under synapse control so you can't take him out with 1 shot.

I can see you are using your guants as cheap assault gaunts, with the extra I meaning they can strike first and last longer in combat vs most other units.  It could work.  Best to try out 2 different guant squads with and without to see how they do compared to each other.

Hormagaunts are a bit expensive, but at least they can hurt AV10.  I like them with  just the extra initiative since it's rare that they won't have another target other than an AV10 vehicle.

Swarms are cool, but slow...  Consider giving them leaping...

I don't like scything talons on genestealers.  I'm a big fan of getting extended carapace and scuttlers, though most people think that's too expensive as well.

The Zoanthropes should get a 2nd hive mind power on top of warp blast.  Most people get synapse.

Close combat carnifexes can often spend the entire game trying to reach the enemy, and the points there could be best used somewhere else.  They tend to do a lot more with guns.  I do use a CC carnifex (2xscythingtalons,+1I,Fleshhooks) but he's cheap, and acts as a shield for my advancing leaping warriors since he blocks LOS.  :D

Yeah, that's a lot of models to paint!  Read the last few posts and you'll see someone talking about the dipping method using minwax.  Looks good and it's quite fast.

Also, if you want to go with less numbers, use more expensive models.  Get a flying Hive Tyrant, get some Ravenors, get more genestealers and less gaunts.  I have a 1700 point list with 2 Hive Tyrants, 2 Carnifexes, and only 40-50 more models.

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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2006, 02:33:01 AM »
Woah guys, let's be a little more welcoming eh?

Tracer, welcome to the Tyranid board, now let us have a quick exploration of your list.

Well I agree with quite a few of the comments posted here, although not all of them by any means.

Sadly it is true what they say about your Hive Tyrant, Warriors and Carnifex. In Tyranid lists, the way you get the most out of such units is to give them the equipment they need to excel in one area. If they are given equipment to both fight and shoot, then frankly they are going to kind of suck at both. Since you have expressed a wish to make an army that is good against MEQs and is assault-orientated, my suggestion would be to ditch that Tyrant and put together one with the following: Wings, two pairs of Scything Talons, and Warp Blast. The Hive Tyrant's stats mean that adding any biomorphs to it will not increase its effectiveness at all against MEQs, so keep it cheap but nasty. Flap around homing in on isolated units that could cause you trouble and which the big guy can dispatch on his own, like dreads, tanks or ICs. Meanwhile, use Warp Blast to blat Marines. The low powered blast is a godsend against MEQs, it is built to dispatch them.

Similar problems emerge with your Elites. As far as the Warriors go, always always always give them rending claws. In this instance, also give them scything talons, and probably leaping. Here now you can consider giving them Adrenal Glands to boost their Initiative, ensuring they go first in any MEQ encounters (besides Necrons, where they will always hit first or at the same time anyway). As regards the Lictor, he doesn't really fit in this list. I'm well aware of the conceptual problems most people have with Lictors, and share them to a certain extent, but I don't intrinsically hate them. However, they have no place here.

As regards your troops choices, a few things need to be tweaked. First of all the gaunts are far too expensive considering how vulnerable they are. Sure 20 gaunts going first sounds pretty good, but when you consider how many of those will die from bolter volleys before you get into combat, it really doesn't add much value.

Support wise, I like the Thropes, but the Fex needs some work. You need to drop a fair few biomorphs from the combat one if it is going to do what you want. Many people would suggest you lose it completely. I don't believe you should (although a fex with two TL devourers and Spine banks does wonders for your firepower, you want a combat army), but instead make it cheaper, much cheaper. If you're taking Crushing Claws good luck to you, but you need to balance their expense by reducing its overall cost through dropping other biomorphs.

Have another go and I'm sure you'll get an awesome list. Good luck!
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Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2006, 01:16:50 PM »
Thanks for the help guys. Here is what I was thinking when I made the list:

The Gaunts rush towards the enemy using Fleet till they are in charging range. Most likely, most of them will be killed before combat, but that is ideally what they are there for. If they can soak up shots, my Termagaunts, Stealers, and Warriors will survive to get into assault and do a lot of damage. Since Termagaunts, Warriors, and I believe genestealers have leaping, they can hopefully get into assault before SMs can rapid fire their bolters. Almost everything has Fleet so hopefully that will help them move faster. My idea was to have so many troops on the table, the enemy would have to pick and choose what he shoots at. Inevitably, at least one squad will make it intact to combat.

My assault fex is slower than the rest, which is why I gave him the better save and extra wound. Hopefully, they will keep him alive till combat.

But I can see lots of changes that need to be made, thanks to you guys. I'll definitely give my warriors rending claws in place of their guns.

I'd love to give the Tyrant wings, but I don't know where or how to get them, and I'm not sure if I should play him with wings if he doesn't have any modeled onto him. What do you guys do? I'm definitely going to make some changes to him though.

I agree with the Lictor. I really can't think of anything to use him for with my list anyway. I just put him on there because I love the model.  :-[

I'll give my thropes Synapse.

I'll update the list soon.
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Offline Scalu

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2006, 02:57:27 PM »
Sorry for just going into the critique without saying welcome!  Welcome to the Hive Mind!  You can get a ton of useful information on this board just by going through other people's posts and army lists, so take some time to check out the forum when you can.

  I just wanted to comment on one thing:
Since Termagaunts, Warriors, and I believe genestealers have leaping, they can hopefully get into assault before SMs can rapid fire their bolters.

The genestealers do not have leaping, and neither do Termagaunts though I am sure you meant to say Hormagaunts, which do have leaping.

And on Lictors, you are totally right about them having really cool models.
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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2006, 03:49:15 PM »
The problem with slashy-fex isn't that it doesn't survive, it is that it never gets there.  If you get it there by turn 3, you are EXTREMELY lucky, and even once it does get there, 2 or 3 wounds a turn is the max I see it do.  So unless you charge a command squad and instant kill a few of them, you will never get your points back on it.

And I love the lictor model too, so much converting possibilities.  But it is more of a unit that you buy, convert, paint, then leave on your shelf than one you actually use.  The only time I can suggest the use of them is against tau, where you can pop out and instant-kill an ethereal, then if you survive the shooting, kill a few firewarriors, and make your points back.
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When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
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The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2006, 12:54:21 PM »
I updated the list based on some of your suggestions. Please let me know if it is any better, and what I should continue to change.

Made both my fex shooty, gave my warriors rending claws, gave my Tyrant wings, and ditched the Lictor. Hope this is better.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2006, 01:10:43 PM »
Okay, mostly good but still a few mistakes. Rending Claws on a Hive Tyrant is worthless. It's going to be wounding pretty regularly due to its high strength, and ignores armour saves by virtue of being a monstrous creature. Lose them for a second pair of Scything Talons.

Extended Carapace on Carnifex is of variable usefulness. IMO it's generally better to not bother. And I stand by my point about Adrenal Glands on Gaunts. Waste of points. I'd suggest you free up some points in that manner and spend them on beefing your warrior broods.
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Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2006, 01:30:42 PM »
Yea, I forgot about that the Tyrant was an MC. I'll take off the Claws.

I took off the Adrenaline Glands form the Gaunts. I've now got 62 points to spend.

What do you recommend adding to the warriors with the extra points?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 01:44:26 PM by .:Tr@ceR:. »
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Offline Benandorf

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2006, 01:46:51 PM »
Getting better!

Warriors are fine IMHO, though they could use some beefing up (toxin sacs, adren glands) if you want them to live to their full potential.

Take the Adren Glands and Toxin Sacs off the Hormagaunts, it's a waste of points.

I dislike scything talons on genestealers, I would rather use the point to buy more genestealers, but that is really a matter of taste, so if you MUST have scything talons, keep them.

Are both carnifi the same?  If so, you need to change them NOW.  As it is, you have two carnifi that are not good at any one thing, and are too expensive.  Take a gunfex (venom cannon, Barbed Strangler, and Enhanced senses) and if you have to have another one, either a dakkafex or gunfex is my suggestion.  Problem with a slashy-fex is that it is slow moving, and once it gets into combat, it doesn't do a whole lot of damage unless you attack command squads (which will probobly kill you).  If you have to have a slashy-fex, put on two things of scything talons and a +I adren gland, and that's it.

Also, if you want increased survivablity on the gun-fex, get either reinforced chitin or enhanced carapace.  Not both.
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2006, 02:17:18 PM »
Yea, I forgot about that the Tyrant was an MC. I'll take off the Claws.

I took off the Adrenaline Glands form the Gaunts. I've now got 62 points to spend.

What do you recommend adding to the warriors with the extra points?
Friends. Get some more warriors.
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Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2006, 02:52:07 PM »
Friends. Get some more warriors.

Haha, ok. I added an extra Warrior to each squad. But now I'm 2 points over 1850.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2006, 02:53:13 PM »
Drop a Ripper Swarm? You'll be a little under but roll with it.

A note: broods are nearly always better when taken in even numbers rather than odd. One of those things
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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2006, 03:00:23 PM »
Yea, that's a good idea. I'll do that.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2006, 03:02:31 PM by .:Tr@ceR:. »
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Offline Benandorf

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2006, 03:46:34 PM »
The two Carnifi (carnifexes?) are still bad.  They are too expensive, and not tooled to either ranged or melee.  Change that, and you should have craploads of points left over.
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2006, 03:54:37 PM »
I'm working on them. I like the idea of having a Venom Cannon and Barbed strangler on one of them, since they can shoot two guns. But I'm just not sure how that will look. Got a picture of it? I've never seen that done before.

Also, what exactly is a dakka fex?

I can't figure out what to drop, Reinforced Chitin or Extended Carapace. I really like having them both because they will make him next to impossible to kill.
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Offline Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2006, 03:56:44 PM »
No they will not. Extended Carapace is quite handy until the AP1 weapons come out. Then he's toast. Don't waste the points
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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2006, 04:03:41 PM »
Dakkafex is a carnifex that has two TL devs and enhanced senses, bringing up to 113 points.  Cheap, and effective.

And a gunfex is very common, and a very good choice.  But no matter what you do, you need to specialize those carnifi.  Right now, neither will get the job done well at range or close.  Though, truthfully, a CC carni is usually not worth the points no matter what it is decked out in, unless you manage to get close and kill a monolith or land raider.
Quote from: Yuenglingdragon
When life gives you anything, charge it with Genestealers.
Alarm clock? Genestealers.
Your boss? Genestealers.
The rednecks that cut in front of me at Wal-mart like I didn't have anything better to do than stand in line? Genestealers.

Quote from: unknown
Asking for advice on using VC to beat O&G is like saying "I'm 6'3", work out, and consider myself pretty tough.  Can anyone give me advice on how to beat up the handicapped kid down the street?"

Offline .:Tr@ceR:.

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Re: Thinking about starting nids, made first list.
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2006, 04:12:39 PM »
Ok, each fex now has a Venom cannon, Barbed Strangler, Enhanced senses, and Reinforced Chitin. That any better?
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