Author Topic: Whats wrong with Fire Prisms? (Read 2527 times)

-=Abyss=- · « **on:** December 24, 2004, 08:30:37 PM »

It seems everyone says not to use them, what is so crappy about them?

BladeWind · « **Reply #1 on:** December 24, 2004, 08:39:57 PM »

i have a fire prism...i think their ok. but since the tables i use to battle now is soo small...60" range is something i do not need and since its soo small...it'll take more fire from an enemy

Koonitz · « **Reply #2 on:** December 24, 2004, 08:47:49 PM »

Primarily it's the fact that it's basically a platform for the Prism Cannon, which is a single shot weapon fired by a pilot with a BS of 3. That means you have a 50% chance of hitting. That is very unreliable. As a Guard player, the fact that our main battle tanks, while a bit more expensive points wise, don't have to roll against BS, make them a bit more reliable (Depending on your relationship with the scatter die, of course).

You're paying 120-150 points for a weapon with 50% reliability? Not gonna happen. You can spend those points on two kitted vypers with Brightlances and get more reliability against vehicles, single large targets, and most other targets you'd be firing the Prism Cannon against.

Of course, the Prism has more uses than just a platform for the Prism Cannon. Sadly, it is more difficult to see, so therefore most people go for other things that can perform just as well in that regard, such as a Falcon.

Lazarus · « **Reply #3 on:** December 24, 2004, 10:29:37 PM »

koonitz makes many valid points.
the falcon always wins over the prism for me due to 3 weapon systems and the ability to transport troops. people tend to try and hide their prisms...my falcons and troops are busy storming objectives and such. i WANT people to shoot at my falcons and wraithlords as they can withstand lots of fire thus sheltering my remaining units.

69Lazarus.

Captain F. Bunny · « **Reply #4 on:** December 25, 2004, 02:28:04 AM »

Lazurus got me thinking. What if one used a fire prisim to spearhead advances? it is cheaper pointswise and has the same durability. The ability to transport troops being an advantage is moot. Save for a seer council/farseer bodyguard, you can't get enough troops in it. Also, potentially people would place them higher up on the target priority, because of the lascannon with the template.

Lazarus · « **Reply #5 on:** December 25, 2004, 08:03:33 AM »

being able to transport troops is NOT moot for the falcon.

many games are not played for VP's but for objectives like holding table quarters. a falcon with troops will count as TWO scoring units while the prism will count as ONE.
the durability of the prism is the same, ill grant you that but it NEEDS to be guided unless you are lucky. your farseer can already ride in the falcon(to guide it) alolng with 5 other troops! you said you cant get enough troops in it? 5 or 6 fire dragons are usually enough to mess up a target pretty good (tanks / creatures ect). they only have to finish what the falcon started.

now if you bring the prism AND the falcon to spearhead your assault that would be cool. i would be hoping they were firing at the prism. when i come out i give my opponent plenty to shoot at. last night i sent 2 falcons, a lord , 3 wave serpents and the avatar at him. all being durable targerts i force him to concentrate fire on only a few of them.

69Lazarus.

dead piggy · « **Reply #6 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:13:08 AM »

Ive played some 10,000 games

(borrowing other peoples models of course) with the special HUGE game rules and then the fire prism really comes into its own. We decided it was only fair to double the points cost (along with the basilisk) because it was fast and could snipe out units so easily. In little games though one of its problems that I dont think has been mentioned is that it seems a little confused as to whether it wants to shoot tanks or troops. Some think that the versatility is a good thing but I think it is a waste of the strength to use it against troops and a waste of the blast to use it against vehicles. The only times you use both to good effect is against things like Ork warbuggies or maybe bikes.

Lazarus · « **Reply #7 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:21:06 AM »

the blast is good for troops like terminators or other high armour / toughness targets. other than that i would only fire it at hard target like main line tanks. that is IF i had to use it at all (lol).

69Lazarus.

Rasmus · « **Reply #8 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:25:50 AM »

A main battltank tends to sport heavy front armour, and if it is 13+ you are better off using the Brightlance. Lighter things like dreads and rhonos on the other hand are easy meat for the prismannon.

Did you know they used to link up and enhance eachother for one huge blast? Back then they were called Deathstalkers, and looked a tad different, but it was still the same gun.

Philip Bright · « **Reply #9 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:39:04 AM »

Quote from: Rasmus on December 25, 2004, 10:25:50 AM

A main battltank tends to sport heavy front armour, and if it is 13+ you are better off using the Brightlance. Lighter things like dreads and rhonos on the other hand are easy meat for the prismannon.

Did you know they used to link up and enhance eachother for one huge blast? Back then they were called Deathstalkers, and looked a tad different, but it was still the same gun.

Sounds interesting! ecactly how powerfull was it???

Rasmus · « **Reply #10 on:** December 25, 2004, 10:45:41 AM »

they were not individually very powerful, but they had a prism at the back, so another deathstalker could "shoot" into it, linking its energy. You could link up several ones and form a chain of death, and only expose one to hostile fire as it blew off the legs of titans.

Now thes ewere never meant for 40k, but a company called Forge World (not forgeworld) made models anyway, based on the Epic-scale design. And yes, of course, I have one.

Lazarus · « **Reply #11 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:08:12 AM »

there are plenty of tanks w/ av12 (eldar come to mind?) also with the manuverabilty and range of the prism side armour shots are not difficult...if u can hit that is (lol)
i see that you have a 40k scale deathstalker

(i want one) i remember linking them together in epic it was a blast! (lol)
have you tried to do something similar for 40K (house rule ect) ? maybe the fire prism could shoot it.

69Lazarus.

Philip Bright · « **Reply #12 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:13:35 AM »

I like it! a re-make FW!!!!!!!

Rasmus · « **Reply #13 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:26:05 AM »

I have never seen anyone else have another tank like it, and it never came up, but the thought of adding +1 S, blast, ordnance or such (in that order) for every other Deathstalker linking up might be a good idea.

Lazarus · « **Reply #14 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:38:08 AM »

might make a cool mission based scenario for your opponent. eldar recover lost technology on crone world ect.
they need to capture or destroy it and in the mean time you get to use it.

69Lazarus.

Eldritch Knight · « **Reply #15 on:** December 25, 2004, 06:48:12 PM »

Fire Prisms aren't actually all that bad cost wise. The Imperial Destroyer Tank Hunter (forgeworld) is over 150 points, has same gun (w/ 12" extra range) and the armor of a Leman Russ. The FP can withstand more fire than the DTH, and manages to cost less, and w/ a CTM can stay alive for a game and deal out around 3 hits (average) and kill at least one tank.

Grey Mage · « **Reply #16 on:** December 25, 2004, 09:59:50 PM »

People tell you to stay away from it because its not a sure thing... numberwise its not going to rack you up the points all the time, nor is it even going to hit all the time.

This logic is crap.

Nothing works all the time sept a venearable space wolves dreadnaught with twin linked weapon... and not even then.

Do to this simple fact, basing your army on pure statistics after youve played for more than a dozen games is silly. Call me supestitious, stupid, or just weird, I dont care... but a unit works well for some and not for others. I cant get firedragons to work for me period... even if my tactics are sound with them, even borrowed from another... then my rolls will suck. On the other hand reapers love me, and my rolls are always good, lucks on my side with them being shot at, and so they kick ass.

Culeagh · « **Reply #17 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:33:45 PM »

I think the best fix for the Fire Prism is to simply make it an ordnance weapon. Something like this:

Range: 60", Strength 9, AP 2*, Ordnance 1

*Center hole of template is AP1 like the monolith particle whip.

With the extra d6 for ordnance armor penetration, the AP1 of the center hole and shoot and scoot capability this would be the premier anti-armor unit in the game. Of course it would cost a pretty penny in points as well, near to the 200 we usually spend on falcons, of course.

I personally have no problem with allowing things to be powerful (just look at IG ordnance!), just as long as the appropriate points are paid.

Happy Hunting

-=Abyss=- · « **Reply #18 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:36:18 PM »

A mobile ordanance weapon would be a no no, this would cause many balance issues, also if not ordanace then the Fire Prisms would be easyily shot down by Anti-Armour weapons

Culeagh · « **Reply #19 on:** December 25, 2004, 11:45:06 PM »

Quote from: Abyss on December 25, 2004, 11:36:18 PM

A mobile ordanance weapon would be a no no, this would cause many balance issues, also if not ordanace then the Fire Prisms would be easyily shot down by Anti-Armour weapons

All direct fire ordnance is mobile.

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Author Topic: Whats wrong with Fire Prisms? (Read 2527 times)