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Author Topic: Sisters of battle Seraphim question  (Read 4818 times)

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Offline Thee General Grog

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Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« on: March 5, 2002, 08:17:59 PM »
I play vs sisters of battle a lot. the seraphim seem to be able to move to much. they can move 12" assault 6" then jump out of close combat 3D6" that is a total of 27" average and 36" if they are lucky. Then if they are assaulted again they can move another 3D6" after close combat.
Not to mention the Faith point abilities.
It seems that this ability is abused. One unit should not be able to move that much in one turn.

Offline RedTwo

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #1 on: March 5, 2002, 09:16:49 PM »
The latest, greatest rules for the SOB are in Chapter Approved - good book, you should pick one up.

Acts of Faith can only be played by "faithfull" units and it takes one faith point for each act.  Putting a faithful unit in your army adds a certain number of points and you get those points again if the unit is killed (martyrs).  A unit of Seraphim are good for one faith point.  This makes for a pretty good balance (at least on paper, I have to admit I haven't seen it practice yet).

Seraphim are Jump Pack Troops so they do move 12" and assault 6" (just like Swooping Hawks or anyone else with jump jacks).  They have a special "Hit and Run" rule that lets them fall back 3D6" in any direction and regroup, their opponent may only regroup.  this is done at the end of CC after all moral checks have been made.

It sounds like your friend is playing the Seraphim correctly.  They appear to be one the better units in the SOB army list.  However, they can not deep strike like our Swooping Hawks, so they are going to have to cross the table to get to you.  Toughness3 with a 3+ save should die with some consintrated fire (especially with no Farseer to fortune them  ;) )

go pick up Chapter Approved and keep your friend honest on those faith points   ;D
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Offline Thee General Grog

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #2 on: March 5, 2002, 10:05:23 PM »
Oh I absolutely believe that he is playing them correctly. my point is that they can move all the way across the board in one turn if they are lucky. this is unbalancing movement wise in my opinion.

Offline Chaos_Cow

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #3 on: March 5, 2002, 10:23:35 PM »
Six guided Starcannons... try using Spirit of the Martyr on THAT, biznatch! Double strength!

Offline RedTwo

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #4 on: March 5, 2002, 10:39:22 PM »
Oh I absolutely believe that he is playing them correctly. my point is that they can move all the way across the board in one turn if they are lucky. this is unbalancing movement wise in my opinion.

You are aware that this is only 1D6 farther than Warp Spiders can move right?  ;) Swooping Hawks can't withdraw, but their Exarch can have a power weapon and sustained assualt with will beat the absolut hell of out of a Seraphin Sister Superior and her ENTIRE SQUAD (any squad) - by himself!  Honestly, the Eldar list has two units that are roughly equivilant in capabilities.  More importantly, the Seraphim are balaced against the whole of the SOB army list.

You've got a player with a good unit who obviously knows how to take advantage of it's strengths.  I'm sure it's less frustrating for someone facinf a good Eldar general with Warp Spiders or Swopping Hawks.  You'll just have to learn to be a good general and take advantage of the units weaknesses.

You are of course welcome to your opinion, but I can not agree with you on it.  I think your arguement is based more of frustration than any problem with the SOB army list.  That's just my opinion.
« Last Edit: March 5, 2002, 10:57:24 PM by RedTwo »
Over specialization builds in weakness.

Offline Dangonblane

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #5 on: March 6, 2002, 07:51:03 AM »

Oh I absolutely believe that he is playing them correctly. my point is that they can move all the way across the board in one turn if they are lucky. this is unbalancing movement wise in my opinion.


How?  They can only get up to 18" across - the 12" move and 6" assault.

If you read the rules for Hit and Run, the unit makes a fallback move of 3D6 inches and the opponent can only consilidate.

Now, can everyone remember which way fallback moves go?  Back towards your own table edge (or deployment zone).  You can't use Hit and Run to move further into your enemy's half of the table - I'd remind the SOB player about this if I were you.

Offline Okoskinen

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #6 on: March 6, 2002, 08:17:54 AM »
Taken from a post by RedTwo
Quote
They have a special "Hit and Run" rule that lets them fall back 3D6" in any direction and regroup, their opponent may only regroup.  this is done at the end of CC after all moral checks have been made.


That is, *ANY* direction.

So the SOB's can actually get that 36" in one turn.
As a side note, I've never played SOB's nor played against them, so I aint speaking from my own experience.
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Offline Thee General Grog

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #7 on: March 6, 2002, 01:41:53 PM »
Ok there is an important difference between SOB seraphims and warp spiders. Mainly the COST.

A fully decked out squad of WS's costs 302 pts.

A fully decked out squad of seraphim costs approx 200.

Another thing is that WS's are going through a  warp hole. whereas Seraphim are flying. How can they move faster than a Fast skimmer?

there are some more diferences. WS's using the withdraw power can only make a FALL BACKmove, while SOB seraphim can hit and run in ANY direction.

Also warp spiders have a chance at losing members if they make a second jump.

SOB's have faith points wich means they can come back to life if they fail armor saves( if they get the correct rolls that is)

I think the hit and run rule needs to be revisited 3d6" is too much. 2d6" max.

Also add purity seals to the mix and they can roll an extra dice and throw away the one they dont want.

I agree with you RedTwo that I am a little frustrated after seeing the seraphim charge my wraithlord knowing they cannot do any damage to it. Just so he could get his hit and run ability.

I do like playing against the SOB though, I just think that the hit and run thing is unrealistic and a little unbalanced.

Offline RedTwo

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #8 on: March 6, 2002, 02:20:49 PM »
First off, I've really enjoyed this topic.  It's casued mt to look into some rules that I don't use often and to study a new army list.

We have to be carefull drawing comparisons across army lists.  Yes, I am the one who stated it here, that's my fault.  The points can be misleading because they are balanced against the rest of the units army, not another amry's units.  Eldar get two options for "jump pack" troops where SOB just have the one.  Also ours are split between Elite and Fast (WS are troops for Biel Tan) so we could potentially have many more units of jump troops (even if it's not a good idea the possibility is there). WS have a strength 6 weapon while Swooping Hawks have an absolutly NASTY Exarch and the ability to deep strike.  As far as warp versus flying, travelling through a warp has got to be a lot more dangersous.  It's also possible (although not probable) to roll higher on 2D6 than 3D6.  It's really not that big an advantage.

It's pretty obvious that this a topic where we'll just to have to agree to disagree.  As I stated I see your point, I just don't happen to agrre with it.

As to the Seraphim in your games:  Park some Star cannons or Dark Reapers near that Wraithlord.  If your opponent does a hit and run he can only move at most 18" and will be shot to pieces!  The only way to avoid this is to stay in HTH and get squashed by the WL.  Yes, he could fall back behind cover, but we can control that by where you deploy your WL.  He'll be forced to pick another target (possibly one with more attacks that will be more dangerous to his unit) or change his tactics.  I hope that helps.
« Last Edit: March 6, 2002, 02:24:56 PM by RedTwo »
Over specialization builds in weakness.

Offline Indigo

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #9 on: March 6, 2002, 02:33:02 PM »
A Mostly"tricked out" seraphim squad actually costs 277 points.

9 Seraphim (2 flamers) -w- Meltabombs
1 Vet Seraphim superior -w- Meltabombs, Rosarius, Blade of Admonition, Purity Seals and Plasma Pistol

The Warp Spiders come to 302.

9 Warp Spiders
Exarch -w- tein spinners, powerblades, Withdraw and Surprise Assault

Note that the sisters need to pass an LD test to use thier acts of faith (There is a wargear item that will let them do one automatically for no faith point cost, if you want that in there, add another 25 points)

Oh yes, and the seraphims special move is still a fallback, They CAN be crossfired. It also doesn't work if they are NOT in CC, such as when assaulting a vehicle or if the enemy broke and ran.

« Last Edit: March 6, 2002, 02:36:16 PM by Indigo »

Offline Thee General Grog

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #10 on: March 6, 2002, 05:41:59 PM »
Hmmmmm....

That is an interesting point Indigo. Unfortunatley I have never been able use the crossfire rule. How would that work if a seraphim squad jumped into crossfire range?

It would be a great help if that was explained.

Offline Pugnax

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #11 on: March 6, 2002, 09:17:48 PM »
Seraphim are just a lot better than any jump pack type troops that we have.  The sisters have their strengths, we have ours.  

Offline Okoskinen

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #12 on: March 7, 2002, 07:35:45 AM »
Now, since this one just came up, I started to wonder if it is possible to take for, say a Warlock two Shuriken Pistols, thus giving him two shots to 12" instead of one, but still getting that +1A from two CCW's?

Yes yes yes... WYSIWYG sort of makes this not so good of an idea, seeing how the models for Farseers and Warlock are, but still... I'd like to know, for it just may be that this idea will see daylight in effect, if this can be done.

Any rules against this one, though? Anyone know?
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Offline Indigo

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #13 on: March 7, 2002, 12:14:39 PM »

Hmmmmm....

That is an interesting point Indigo. Unfortunatley I have never been able use the crossfire rule. How would that work if a seraphim squad jumped into crossfire range?

It would be a great help if that was explained.


Surround him with unengaged units. If his fall back roll brings him into contact with any of them (Or more accurately, his 'fallback corridor' crosses any of them) He's wiped out.

Even using purity seals to finesse the fallback distance it's still possible to get crossfired. If nothing else, a screen of cheap troops can keep a seraphim unit from Hit & running toward something valuable that you don't want killed. (Say that expensive tank perhaps?)

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #14 on: March 7, 2002, 03:53:30 PM »
To answer the twin pistol idea - you must choose one weapon to shoot in the shooting phase - see pg 45 in the BBB.  

Otherwise you'd be seeing alot more Hive tyrants with 2 venom cannons (hmm 6 assault 36" S8 Ap 4 shots each turn...)

Offline High Marshal

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2002, 08:16:16 AM »
Im not sure if they can fall back in any direction, but remenber they are falling back, witch meens that if they fall back towards another enemy unit, they will be caut in a Crossfire

Offline Stelek

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2002, 09:18:25 AM »
Sorry its more bad wording from GW.

Fallback always means toward your deployment zone.

"Any direction" should not be in there.

In other words, the ability works EXACTLY like the Chaos Raptor and Warp Spider abilities.

You fall back rolling 3d6" for your movement and the enemy can only consolidate.

A smart Seraphim player WILL have lots and lots of faith points--and put more into the "bank" by forcing you to shoot units he wants shot so he can add more faith points.

Raptors and Seraphim are always "Hit and Run", and Seraphim are always "Faithful".   Kill a WS Exarch and that ability is denied.  Kill the faithful character in other SoB units and that unit is no longer faithful.  Kill all the Seraphim but one and that unit is still Faithful.

Seraphim played wisely are >THE< assault troops of the game.  And yes, some units you just don't assault.
*cough* Genestealers *cough*

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #17 on: October 9, 2002, 10:51:08 PM »
"any direction" makes perfect sense, as the unit isn't falling back in panic, only repositioning.  What stops leap-frog maneuvers is that while the unit may withdraw in any direction, it may not go through enemy units.  

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2002, 01:23:33 AM »
Sorry its more bad wording from GW.

Fallback always means toward your deployment zone.

"Any direction" should not be in there.

Actually, they can fall back in any direcrion
the rules say:
  'Hit & Run: Seraphim may choose to leave close combat. Declare this at the end of the Assault phase after all Morale checks have been taken. the Seraphim then fall back 3D6" in ANY DIRECTION & then regroup at the end of the move. Enemy modles may only consolidate.'

Offline Tobab816

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Re:Sisters of battle Seraphim question
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2002, 01:44:25 AM »
And the new Raptors DO fall back in any direction. As does the Screamers.
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