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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Modifying characteristics
« on: August 19, 2020, 07:27:23 PM »
I had someone tell me about a series of rules interactions that is being talked about in the competitive community on how Modifying Characteristics interacts with certain stratagems.

The example he brought forward is that the Stratagem Auramite and Adamantium for the Adeptus Custodes out of War of the Spider will not have an effect on weapons that are being affected by Combat Doctrines.

Example:  A Tactical Marine's Bolt Gun, while in the Tactical Doctrine, will not have it's increased AP negated by this stratagem.

I wanted to see what everyone's opinion is on this series of rules and how they would interact.

The first point is for the rule regarding modifying characteristics:
Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rule Book ; Core Rules ; Modfying Characteristics ; Pg 203
If a rule instructs you to replace one characteristic with a specified value, change the relevant chraacteristic to the new value before applying any modifiers...

Then we have to look at Combat Doctrines:
Quote from: Ritual of the Damned ; Dark Angels ; Combat Doctrines ; Pg 35
The Armour Penetration characteristic of ... weapons this model is equipped with is improved by one ...

So with that, it is clear that Combat doctrines are modifiers to Armour Penetration.  You are being directly told to improve the characteristic.  So then we look at the Custodes.

Quote from: War of the Spider ; Adeptus Custodes Stratagems ; Auramite and Adamantium ; Pg 39
... an Armour Penetration characteristic of -1 or -2 is resolved as 0...

Now, to me that does not read as having modified the characteristic of the weapon.  The characteristic is still the -1 or -2, but when the attack is being resolved it is treated as 0.  I feel that if they were to have this stratagem modify the characteristic, it would be phrased more along the lines of:  weapons targeting this unit with an Armour Penetration characteristic of -1 or -2 instead have an AP Characteristic of 0.

Does this logic pan out, or am I making a stretch in a vain attempt to have my Allarus being worth the effort against Marines?
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Offline Blazinghand

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Re: Modifying characteristics
« Reply #1 on: August 19, 2020, 07:46:29 PM »
My understanding is that it goes like this:

1) The base characteristic is changed by Combat Doctrines. This isn't a case like "+1 to hit" but a case like "BS2+ instead of BS 3+"
2) This modification by Combat Doctrines means it's "shots at AP-2" instead of "Shots at AP-1 where you have an additional -1 on save rolls"
3) This means that your model is struck by a shot at AP-2, which you can then ignore, rolling your save as normal.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Modifying characteristics
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2020, 06:57:52 PM »
It sounds too convoluted to be the rule writers intent. If you get hit by -1/-2 shot then it is ignored. If a -2 weapon get improved to -3 then you would apply the armour modifier.

It might be something to sent to the FAQ team, and best to confirm with the tourney team before you start playing.

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Re: Modifying characteristics
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2020, 08:04:15 PM »
It sounds too convoluted to be the rule writers intent. If you get hit by -1/-2 shot then it is ignored. If a -2 weapon get improved to -3 then you would apply the armour modifier.

It might be something to sent to the FAQ team, and best to confirm with the tourney team before you start playing.

This is my thoughts too.

I just think about how they'd faq it, and this is how they'd faq it.
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