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Author Topic: Matched Play Smite usage  (Read 2344 times)

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Offline Blazinghand

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Matched Play Smite usage
« on: April 23, 2018, 04:20:33 PM »
Continued from the topic here: The subject of Dire Avenger.

My understanding is this:

1) Generally speaking, each unit may only attempt each psychic power once per turn. This is clearly specified if you look at the rules for the psychic phase. It very clearly says that a psyker can't try to cast the same spell more than once in a turn, and Smite is no exception. This restriction applies generally, not just in matched play. Take a look under 2. Psychic Phase > 2. Make a Psychic Test: http://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English.pdf -- this is true in both Matched Play and in regular play.

2) Matched Play places an additional restriction on top of this. In addition to each unit attempting each psychic power once per turn, the Psychic Focus rule says that each power other than smite may only be attempted once per turn, rather than once per caster per turn. This means that, if you attempt Fortune with one Farseer, you can't attempt Fortune with a different one in the same turn.

So, under normal rules, you could cast this set of spells:

Farseer 1 - Smite, Fortune
Farseer 2 - Smite, Fortune

and this would be allowed. However, having one Farseer cast Smite twice or Fortune twice would not be allowed, as you cannot have one unit cast the same spell twice.

Under Matched Play rules, you can't cast Fortune a second time. So you can do this:

Farseer 1 - Smite, Fortune
Farseer 2 - Smite, Guide

and this would be allowed. Smite can also be cast by the second Farseer because he is a separate unit from the first farseer, but it cannot be cast twice by the same Farseer, as stated in the rules for the psychic phase. There is no indication that Smite is exempt from the restriction of "a unit cannot attempt to cast the same spell twice" anywhere in the rules. Fenris apparently thinks the following set of spells cast would be allowed in matched play:

Farseer 1 - Smite, Smite

Which seems to me to be unsupported by the rules.

I'd be eager to hear what others have to say on this.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 09:13:37 PM by Blazinghand »
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Matched Play Smite usage
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2018, 09:00:10 PM »
I am in agreement with you that the restriction of a psyker only being able to cast a power once per turn is not removed, so there is no possibility of Eldrad casting Smite three times.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Matched Play Smite usage
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2018, 04:55:49 PM »
Good, this is a better place to have this discussion, my argument is that matched play rules are more specific than the general rules and rather than paraphrasing here is the exact quote, that is spawning this discussion:

Quote
"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn, rather than once per psyker per turn."

This part:
"With the exception of Smite, each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn."
Allows Smite to be free from once per turn.

And then this is how I read it:
"With the exception of Smite (still), each psychic power can be attempted only once per psyker per turn."
Allows Smite to be cast freely and exempt from the restriction once per turn per psyker.

This is how I have played it so far, and it has allowed when two(or more) psykers has the same non-smite power(s), they can at least still cast smite (as much as they can cast powers) when the other psyker has cast the non-smite power(s).

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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Matched Play Smite usage
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2018, 05:36:23 PM »
It is pretty clear in the section you are quoting. All other psychic powers other than smite are once per turn only. The exception, that is Smite, is still once per psyker per turn, as per the general rules. So each psyker can only manifest smite once per turn.

I'm not sure how you're getting that confused. I think this is more a case of wishful thinking.

Match play rules builds on top of the general rules. Everything is once per psyker per turn in the general rules. Matches play expands to say psychic abilities are once per turn period. Smite is the exception in matched play, but it simply keeps the general rule of once per psyker per turn.

Offline Fenris

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Re: Matched Play Smite usage
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2018, 08:11:51 PM »
Why would the exception only apply to the first clause and not the second clause in the freedom sense, but in the restrictive sense it should apply to both clauses?

It either applies to both or only the first, not shifting depending on if the sense is restrictive or freeing.

First clause:
"each psychic power can be attempted only once per turn"

Second clause:
"rather than once per psyker per turn"

You either get:
Farseer1 smite, smite
Farseer2 guide, fortune
Farseer3 smite, guide no can do!

or you get:
Farseer1 mind war, smite
Farseer2 guide, fortune
Farseer3 smite, doom no can do!

The second one has however been FAQ'ed  in november to be wrong:

Quote
"Q: If the Strength from Death ability is triggered, and
I choose to manifest a psychic power as if it were the
Psychic phase, can I attempt to manifest a power that
another psyker in my army has attempted to manifest
this turn?
A: Yes. Note, however, that if you are playing a matched
play game, then the Psychic Focus rule still applies,
in which case your psyker cannot attempt to manifest
a psychic power that has already been attempted
by another psyker in your army this turn (with the
exception of
Smite
)."

RAI may have been:
Farseer1 Guide, Smite
Farseer2 Smite, Smite no can do!
Farseer3 Doom, Guide no can do!

But it's not RAW.
RAW is:
Farseer1 Guide, Smite
Farseer2 Smite, Smite
Farseer3 Doom, Guide no can do!
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Offline dog_of_war

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Re: Matched Play Smite usage
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2018, 10:51:03 PM »
The basic rules state

"A psyker cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once a turn."

There is no where in any of your points that this is overridden.

Your second point with the faq states that a psyker can not manifest a power another psyker did this turn except smite. It does not say that he cannot manifest any power ANY psyker, including himself did this turn except smite.

The overarching rule that a psyker cannot manifest the same power more than once a turn still applies.

What you are doing is trying to find ambiguity in rule clarifications to try and find a loophole to override the core rules.

I won't be able to further debate this with you as it is becoming a cyclical argument. All the power to you if your gaming group lets you interpret the rules the way you are, but don't be surprised when you get shut down outside your current group.

 


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