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Offline Calamity

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Customising the Imperial Guard
« on: December 16, 2015, 08:21:10 PM »
For years now I've been trying to bring back the flawed but charming nature of imperial guard doctrines from 3rd edition for the latest edition of 40k.  First for fifth edition, then sixth edition, and now seventh edition.  These allowed you to tailor your regiment to better suit your planet's traditions and tactics.  Unfortunately, back in the day, they didn't really work properly, and that's why GW ditched them.  But I've always felt that they could work with a different approach .  It bothers me that at the moment there is literally no difference between a catachan and a vostroyan.  It's a big galaxy and the IG should show that.

To do this, I created what I call (for now) regimental doctrines and skills.  Everything that I'm proposing would affect every CCS, veteran squad, and all infantry platoon units in your army.

First of all, regimental doctrines.  These are the common denominators between the different regiments of the IG and represents how the departmento munitorum classifies them.  This came about when I looked at the forge world Elysian Drop Troops list and old Death Word Veteran lists and asked, what do these different forces have in common? 

Right now, I've got three different regimental doctrines; line infantry, light infantry and Mechanized infantry.  Line and light infantry are proving problematic at the moment, but as for Mechanized infantry, here's what I have:

- In a Mechanized infantry detachment, very CCS, veteran squad and infantry platoon unit would have to take a dedicated transport.  Even if they normally can't. 

- The dedicated transports of the veteran and company command squads would be BS:4. 

- The dedicated transports of infantry platoon units from the same platoon can be formed up into squadrons before the game starts (literally, combined squad for vehicles). 

- Finally, whilst embarked upon an IG transport (not fliers), Mechanized infantry officers grant the tank orders rule to it.  If it uses a tank order, then the officer counts as having issued one order.

So, those last two parts mean that you could squadron up a bunch of chimeras and tauroxes together with the advantages that brings, and then order them all to pop their smoke after shooting, or move flat out almost at fast vehicle speed.  Examples of Mechanized infantry would be the Armageddon Steel Legion and Tallarn Desert Raider units, both funnily enough coming from desert wastelands.

Then, after picking your doctrine, you pick your skills.  These are the unique traits of the regiments combining home world traditions and learned tactics.  These are inspired by the warlord trait system.  I'm planning for an eventual list of 12, of which the player picks three and once again applies them to all company command, veteran, and infantry platoon units in your army.  As you'll see, some skills require a specific regimental doctrine.  Here's my incomplete list as it is:

Aerial Assault (Light Infantry Only): If composed entirely of models with this special rule, unit re-rolls dice for deep strike.

Shock Tactics: On turn that unit arrives via Deep Strike or disembarks from a transport, its shooting attacks are twin-linked.

Marching Fire (Line Infantry Only): Unit can launch an assault even if it fired rapid fire or salvo weapons that turn provided that it successfully enacted upon the suppressing fire order in the shooting phase.*

Volley Fire (Line Infantry Only): Unit fires an extra shot with lasguns if it remained stationary that turn.

Rangers (Light Infantry Only): Unit has Scout and Move Through Cover.*

Sharpshooters: Unit can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 with lasguns, hot-shot lasguns and sniper rifles.

Iron Discipline: Unit rolls 3D6 for fear, morale and pinning checks, discarding the highest, if within 12 inches of a friendly model with either the voice of command or aura of discipline special rules.

Hardened Fighters: All models in unit gain +1 WS.

Die Hards: Unit has Heroic Resolve.

This part of the process really needs work but I think it could work.  Here's some samples I imagine would support the fluff:

Cadians would usually be line infantry, and would have the sharpshooter, iron discipline and shock tactics skills.  Catachans meanwhile would usually be light infantry, and would have the sharpshooter, hardened fighter and ranger skills.  So with this, from the same list, it would be possible to build very different forces.

What do you guys think?  I'm looking forward to any comments and feedback you might give.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 08:24:22 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2015, 12:14:04 AM »
It certainly looks workable.  8)

Have you considered more or less wholesale stealing the abilities from the Doctrines 'Dex?

That would be a good place to start, and then just tweak abilities to represent Characters / Abilities of old. You could have Captain Al's ability of outflanking "x" units. Or Chenkov's Send in the Next wave be part of the Valhallan traits.

I can think of...

Drop Infantry - Elysians
Mechanized Infantry - Armageddon
Infiltration Infantry - Catachans
Line Infantry - Mordians
Outflank Infantry - Tallarn
Horde Infantry - Valhallans [Only Commanders can take transports?]

I can't think of any other archetypes off the top of my head.


Offline Calamity

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2015, 10:52:00 PM »
Thanks Spectral! :)

I haven't seen the doctrines codex.  Do you have a link?

Right now at the moment I'm really unsure about a lot of the names I've picked for everything.  Or the rules I assigned to them.  This is what I really need to work out.

Sharpshooters is fine.  No problems there.  I know it was controversial to include sniper rifles in its benefits but I think it's ok, because let's face it.  Sniper rifles aren't exactly game breakers are they? :P

Hardened Fighters is OK in game terms imo, but I've never been keen on the name.  But I have nothing better.

And I know my iron discipline is different to what forge world have but I think mine fits in better with the other 'discipline' rules in the IG codex (aura of discipline and draconian discipline).

Also, I think I have some ideas for Light Infantry but they're mostly disadvantages:

- No chimeras or Tauroxes as dedicated transports

- Cant take auto cannons or las cannons

This is what the Elysain Drop Troop list and Deathworld Veteran lists basically have in common.  The only way I can justify this is by letting Light Infantry take some of the juicer skills exclusively.   Like a skill that gives them deep strike.

Also, I don't think being Light Infantry should rule out the option to take carapace armour.  Case in point, the Harakoni Warhawks.  A.K.A, the wannabe Stormtroopers.


Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2015, 01:41:21 AM »
You could make Drop Infantry different from Light Infantry.

By Doctrines Codex, I just meant the IG codex that had Doctrines in it. 3.5 edition, Maybe?

Sharpshooters could allow any "1" to be rerolled, regardless of weapon type. Plasma, here we go! :)

Don't get hung up on the names. Use a Thesaurus to pick words with similar meanings, but more dramatic. Hardened Fighters -> Hiveworld Veteran [Gets MTC as well.]


Offline Calamity

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2015, 01:28:23 PM »
Oh yes, the 3.5 edition codex.  I still have that somewhere but I can't remember where I put it.  It would really come in handy at the moment.  :P

Hmmm, Sharpshooters affecting all weapons eh?  Perhaps we could do that.  I wouldn't want it to be too powerful but then again 40ks balance is mad these days.  My opinion is that it best represents superior rifleman skills; that they come from a planet where people know how to use a rifle by the time their age enters double figures.  Special weapons however had to wait until they joined the Militarum.

And I think you're right, we could make Drop Infantry different to Light Infantry.  OK, how about this:

There are 4 regimental types (I'm trying to imagine how it would look in a Codex):

Line Infantry (the standard type, e.g Cadain Shock Troopers, Mordian iron Guard, Death Korps of Kreig etc.).

Light Infantry (the skirmishers, Catachan Jungle Fighters, Tanith First And Only, Drookian Fen Guard etc.)

Drop Infantry (the light cavalry, Elysain Drop Troops, Harakoni Warhawks, that one mentioned in Gaunts Ghosts I can't remember the name of)

Mechanized Infantry (the medium cavalry, Armageddon Steel Legion)

I've gotten the mechanized infantry doctrines sorted out I think.  Squadron up for transports, tank orders for the commanders, higher BS for veterans transports.  For Drop Infantry, how about no dedicated transports, no lascannons or autocannons, and they all gain deep strike?

Then after picking your regiment type you then select your three skills?

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2015, 02:35:15 PM »
You could make the infantry types more like SM Chapters, with fixed rules. That would streamline things, and probably make balancing the strengths easier.

3 Medium powers
1 Weak, 1 Medium, 1 Strong
1 Weak, 1 Mega-Power

Something like that. That way, each individual benefit doesn't need to be balanced against the others, leading to a "Why take move-through-cover "Forests" "? Nobody ever uses forests. Give me the Preferred Enemy power. ;)

I had suggested 6 types of infantry earlier... if you came up with benefits to suit each style, I think you'd be well on your way.

Offline Calamity

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2015, 05:53:52 PM »
You could make the infantry types more like SM Chapters, with fixed rules. That would streamline things, and probably make balancing the strengths easier.

3 Medium powers
1 Weak, 1 Medium, 1 Strong
1 Weak, 1 Mega-Power

Something like that. That way, each individual benefit doesn't need to be balanced against the others, leading to a "Why take move-through-cover "Forests" "? Nobody ever uses forests. Give me the Preferred Enemy power. ;)

I had suggested 6 types of infantry earlier... if you came up with benefits to suit each style, I think you'd be well on your way.

Funnily enough, I was thinking about Space Marine Chapters when I was designing these.  They're literally supposed to be a customisable version of them.

Right now here's how things currently stand with the four Regimental Doctrines I have:

Line Infantry will have the Marching Fire special rule, letting them still charge after shooting rapid fire or salvo weapons, provided that they successfully enacted upon the Suppresive Fire order.  They also have no restrictions on them, since the Codex list is supposed to reflect their doctrine in general.

Drop Infantry (I might rename these Grav Infantry) have the Aerial Assault special rule, which means that they can deep strike.  Also, if they're deploying by grav chute insertion from a Valkyrie or Vendetta, they can reroll the dice.  However, they can't take dedicated transports, and they also cannot take autocannons or lascannons.

Mechanized Infantry have the Armoured Warfare special rule, which lets them merge their dedicated transports into squadrons (max 3 vehicles), whilst granting them the tank orders rule whilst an officer is embarked upon them.  They must take dedicated transports though.  No half measures, you either want a mechanized infantry force or you don't.  ;)

Light Infantry is proving to be a be-atch at the moment, but I'll figure it out.  Scout or something will probably be the way to go.

One more thing...there's the issue of the elite troops.  Here's my proposal for them:

Ratlings will gain the Sharpshooters skill.  Actually, the Shoot Sharp And Scarper rule would now say: Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 with their sniper rifles, and can Run or Go To Ground immediately after shooting.

Storm Troopers will gain a rule called Ordo Tempestus (or Militarum Tempestus?) which means that they'll have all the Regimental Doctrines there is, with none of the restrictions.  Why?  Because they're the best in the guard.  This means that they'll have the Marching Fire, Aerial Assault and Mechanized Warfare rules.  But they won't be forbidden from taking DTs or bound to take them regardless.  They'll also have a few of the skills as well.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2015, 05:40:21 PM »
Argh... Forging is not normally my forte.


Line Infantry
Bonus: Per Codex, but roll an additional die [3d6] for each order, and discard the highest.


Infantry Without Number
Bogey: Models with BS 4 or higher may not be taken, with the exception of Company Command Squads and Platoon Command Squads. Note, that Tank Commander units are not allowed to be taken.

Bonus: All Infantry units that are completely destroyed must instead be placed in ongoing reserve if a 3+ is rolled. If 2- is rolled, the unit is destroyed as normal. Only units completely removed in this manner count toward Victory Conditions, such as a unit destroyed in a Maelstrom Mission, or a unit destroyed for the Purge the Alien. In addition, First Blood and Slay the Warlord are only awarded if the unit is completely destroyed by failing the 3+ roll.


Mechanized Infantry
Bogey: All infantry units must purchase either a Chimera or Taurox as a Dedicated Transport, even if they normally could not. Furthermore, those infantry must begin the game embarked in that transport. All infantry lose the "Combined Squads" rule.

Bonus: Units purchased from the same Platoon may be joined together in a squadron.
Bonus: Embarked units may issue and receive orders.
Bonus: Vehicles may fire Overwatch.


Ambush Infantry / Light Infantry
Bogey: No infantry unit may take a dedicated transport, nor may they begin the game embarked on a transport.
Bogey: All non-infantry units must start in Reserve, except Scout Sentinels.

Bonus: All Infantry units and Scout Sentinel units gain Stealth and Infiltration.
Bonus: Non-Flyer units held in reserve begin rolling for arrival on the first turn.


Drop Infantry
Bogey: No infantry unit may take a dedicated transport, nor may they begin the game embarked on a transport. As an exception, they may start the game embarked in a transport with the Flying type as normal.
Bogey: No Infantry unit may take a weapon with the "Heavy" type.
Bogey: All units must start in Reserve.

Bonus: All units roll for arrival from Reserve starting on the first turn.
Bonus: All Infantry units gain Deep Strike. Any unit that already has Deep Strike may re-roll the scatter dice when arriving.
Bonus: All infantry units that could take a heavy weapon, may instead take an additional special weapon by paying an additional 5 points for that weapon.


Please Note!

None of these options provide offensive bonuses, per se. I think that should be more of a formation bonus type thing. These are mostly different deployment options, or made to represent different styles of fighting. I think you could work Sharp Shooters into a Formation bonus for most any of these types [aside from horde...] so that's they way I'd probably deal with additional, more unit-specific bonuses.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2015, 05:51:41 PM by Spectral Arbor »

Offline Calamity

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2015, 11:27:30 AM »
Thank you for the input Spectral.  :)

You have a lot of good ideas here, but if I'm honest I'm hesitant to create rules that force the player to deploy in a specific way.  War is ever changing, and units can find themselves caught off guard or out of their comfort zone.  Hell, even thinking about it, I'm now hesitant to force mechanized infantry to take dedicated transports.  They might have been operating for a long time and lost most of them, leaving some units to slog on foot.

Also, I'm not really sure about outright declaring that you can't take certain units either.  The thing I hated most about the original doctrines was the whole 'restricted units' thing, and having to buy back units.  I don't like restricting the player like that.  Even though I had light infantry pegged with no dedicated transports or 'cannon' type weapons (but in my defense, I was just copying what GW had done before).  I'm more about trying to subtly steer the player in a certain direction with regards to their list by offering bonuses and incentives to do so.  Even though I have light infantry unable to take dedicated transports, the army could still take chimeras and tauroxes as fast attack choices like other 7th edition armies.

But you have helped me figure out some new skills to add to the list, and I thank you for that.  :)  I think that the officers giving tank orders skill to their transport should be made into a specific skill that only Mechanized Infantry can take.  Because who's to say that these mechanized infantry only use their transports to get to the fight and then primarily focus on fighting on foot from there, with on foot skills.  That's the beauty of my system...you have choice!  ;D

I have it set that your three skills are just 'seasoning' to make your army feel unique, but the Regimental Doctrines are the real meat.  And that the Doctrines grant bonuses at the Squad, Platoon, and Company (for formation) Level.  How about this:

Three Regimental Doctrines (pick one) affecting all Company Command, Veteran and Infantry Platoon units in your army.  They are Line Infantry, Light Infantry and Mechanized Infantry.

Line Infantry are the codex list as is with no changes.  Light Infantry can't take dedicated transports.  Mechanized Infantry are the codex list but with the option for all units to take a chimera or taurox as a dedicated transport.  Certain skills can only be taken by certain Regimental types (for example, only Light Infantry can use the Deep Strike skill, which will cost them the ability to take 'cannons' in their heavy weapon teams).

Line Infantry units receive no bonuses due to their 'balance'.  All Light Infantry units gain Scout.  Mechanized Infantry units can form their transports into squadrons before the game (max 3 vehicles).

For Emperor's Shield and Emperor's Blade Infantry Companies, Light Infantry Companies gain Infiltrate.  Mechanized Infantry Companies can take free transports, and Line Infantry gain...something good.  Recycle their destroyed units like you proposed?
 
Bringing back Al'Rahem, I would promote him to a Company Commander, and give him the Grand Strategy Warlord Trait.  Then I would give him a rule called 'Desert Tigers' which is his army are Mechanized Infantry, and have a set of skills that are suitably Tallarn:

Armored Warfare (Tank Orders for officers, and units embarked can still use certain orders), Raiders (Stealth and Move Through Cover) and Sharpshooters (Re-roll To Hit rolls of 1 for lasguns and sniper rifles).  What's so special about this?  The Raider skill can normally only be taken by Light Infantry.  So Al'Rahem is good enough to bypass the system.  8)
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 12:47:53 PM by Skitarii Tangi »

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2015, 04:53:07 PM »
I approve of this thread, largely because I too miss the Doctrines. That said, here are my thoughts on the matter.

- While the Current List covers the main bunch, the Imperial Guard is such a vast and wide organisation that some of the more exotic regiments - Feral Regiments (like the Kanak Skull Takers, introduced in the same book), Abhuman Regiments and Penal Legions for example - don't seem to have much in the way of options. At least right now.

- On that subject, the old Carapace Armor Doctrine should remain dead and buried. EVERYONE I knew took that exact same Doctrine, because people are dumb. When everyone is taking the exact same Doctrines in a system designed to promote unique Guard regiments in a "Your Dudes" kind of manner, the system be broke.

- Do you plan on defining "Guard Infantry" like the old Doctrines system, or will these affect everyone in the Codex? If not, how would this affect units like Tempestus Scions, Abhumans (Ogryns, Bullgryns and Ratlings) and Wyrdvane Psykers for example?

- If Al'Rahem's coming back, any chance for Chenkov for Horde Infantry forces?

Offline Calamity

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2015, 09:30:20 PM »
I approve of this thread, largely because I too miss the Doctrines. That said, here are my thoughts on the matter.

- While the Current List covers the main bunch, the Imperial Guard is such a vast and wide organisation that some of the more exotic regiments - Feral Regiments (like the Kanak Skull Takers, introduced in the same book), Abhuman Regiments and Penal Legions for example - don't seem to have much in the way of options. At least right now.

Thank you.  :)

I agree that the more exotic units within the guard aren't getting represented at present and i would like to fix that.

- On that subject, the old Carapace Armor Doctrine should remain dead and buried. EVERYONE I knew took that exact same Doctrine, because people are dumb. When everyone is taking the exact same Doctrines in a system designed to promote unique Guard regiments in a "Your Dudes" kind of manner, the system be broke.

You're right.  It breaks the system because everyone will take it and neglect the others.  I was wrestling with the idea of bringing it back but I think it's best left in the past.

- Do you plan on defining "Guard Infantry" like the old Doctrines system, or will these affect everyone in the Codex? If not, how would this affect units like Tempestus Scions, Abhumans (Ogryns, Bullgryns and Ratlings) and Wyrdvane Psykers for example?

Yes I do!  I define "Guard Infantry" as Company Command Squads, Veteran Squads and all Infantry Platoon Units (yes, even conscripts).  The 3 doctrines you take effect all units of this type in your army.  As for the others, it was my plan to give them some fixed doctrines so that they fit in better.  For example, for Ratlings, I was going to rewrite Shoot Sharp And Scarper to:

- Models with this special rule can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting.  In addition, a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can choose to Run or Go To Ground immediately after making a shooting attack.

So Ratlings have a slightly improved version of the Sharpshooter Doctrine.  Meanwhile, Militarum Tempestus units will get a rule called "Ordo Tempestus" or "Commandos" or something like that which is a fixed number of Doctrines they'll always have.  What's special about it is that they'll have more than a normal guard unit can have (either 6, or all of them depending on how it works out) and the Doctrines they do have will be ones that usually cannot be combined.  So they really are better than normal IG.  For Ogyrns, Bullgyrns and Wyrdvanes, I'm not sure yet.  Maybe we could have a doctrine called 'Abnormal Auxilia' that allows one unit of your choice from either Wyrdvanes or Ogyrns/Bullgyrns to gain access to your other two Doctrines?

Here's how my Doctrines currently stand:

Airborne Assault (Light Infantry Only)
: Any model with this doctrine has the Deep Strike special rule.  If all models in the unit have this doctrine, you can reroll the scatter dice when disembarking whilst using a Valkyrie’s Grav-Chute Insertion special rule. (units with this doctrine can't take lascannons or autocannons)

Close Order Drill: When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit within 6” of a unit with this rule, the unit can choose to fire overwatch as if it was also the target of the charge.

Demolitions
: When using krak grenades or melta bombs in combat, any model with this doctrine  has the Tank Hunters special rule.  When using demolition charges, any model with this doctrine has the twin-linked special rule.

Grenadiers: When throwing a frag grenade or a krak grenade, or shooting a grenade launcher, any model with this doctrine has the twin-linked special rule.*

Iron Discipline: Unit rolls 3D6 for fear, morale and pinning checks, discarding the highest, if within 12 inches of a friendly model with either the voice of command or aura of discipline special rules.

Marching Fire: Unit can still launch an assault if it fired rapid fire or slavo weapons that turn provided that it successfully enacted upon the suppressing fire order.

Rangers (Light Infantry Only): Any model with this doctrine has the Stealth and Move Through Cover special rules.*

Sharpshooter: Any model with this doctrine can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 with lasguns, hot-shot lasguns and sniper rifles.

Doctrines marked with an * cannot be combined with each other.  My plan is to make this a list of twelve, with you taking three of your choice as dictated by your Regiment Type (which effects things at the Formation level)

- If Al'Rahem's coming back, any chance for Chenkov for Horde Infantry forces?

Absolutely!  Once again, I would upgrade him to a company commander, and give him the Draconian Discipline Warlord Trait, with the ability to recycle conscripts.  I would also give him the ability to use his own men as artillery markers, dropping blast templates down on them without scattering like that Inquisitor character can do.

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #11 on: December 29, 2015, 06:08:06 AM »
Yes I do!  I define "Guard Infantry" as Company Command Squads, Veteran Squads and all Infantry Platoon Units (yes, even conscripts).  The 3 doctrines you take effect all units of this type in your army.  As for the others, it was my plan to give them some fixed doctrines so that they fit in better.  For example, for Ratlings, I was going to rewrite Shoot Sharp And Scarper to:

- Models with this special rule can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 when shooting.  In addition, a unit composed entirely of models with this special rule can choose to Run or Go To Ground immediately after making a shooting attack.

So Ratlings have a slightly improved version of the Sharpshooter Doctrine.  Meanwhile, Militarum Tempestus units will get a rule called "Ordo Tempestus" or "Commandos" or something like that which is a fixed number of Doctrines they'll always have.  What's special about it is that they'll have more than a normal guard unit can have (either 6, or all of them depending on how it works out) and the Doctrines they do have will be ones that usually cannot be combined.  So they really are better than normal IG.  For Ogyrns, Bullgyrns and Wyrdvanes, I'm not sure yet.  Maybe we could have a doctrine called 'Abnormal Auxilia' that allows one unit of your choice from either Wyrdvanes or Ogyrns/Bullgyrns to gain access to your other two Doctrines?

Here's how my Doctrines currently stand:
Airborne Assault (Light Infantry Only): Any model with this doctrine has the Deep Strike special rule.  If all models in the unit have this doctrine, you can reroll the scatter dice when disembarking whilst using a Valkyrie’s Grav-Chute Insertion special rule. (units with this doctrine can't take lascannons or autocannons)

Close Order Drill: When an enemy unit declares a charge against a friendly unit within 6” of a unit with this rule, the unit can choose to fire overwatch as if it was also the target of the charge.

Demolitions: When using krak grenades or melta bombs in combat, any model with this doctrine  has the Tank Hunters special rule.  When using demolition charges, any model with this doctrine has the twin-linked special rule.

Grenadiers: When throwing a frag grenade or a krak grenade, or shooting a grenade launcher, any model with this doctrine has the twin-linked special rule.*

Iron Discipline: Unit rolls 3D6 for fear, morale and pinning checks, discarding the highest, if within 12 inches of a friendly model with either the voice of command or aura of discipline special rules.

Marching Fire: Unit can still launch an assault if it fired rapid fire or slavo weapons that turn provided that it successfully enacted upon the suppressing fire order.

Rangers (Light Infantry Only): Any model with this doctrine has the Stealth and Move Through Cover special rules.*

Sharpshooter: Any model with this doctrine can reroll To Hit rolls of 1 with lasguns, hot-shot lasguns and sniper rifles.

Doctrines marked with an * cannot be combined with each other.  My plan is to make this a list of twelve, with you taking three of your choice as dictated by your Regiment Type (which effects things at the Formation level)

After having a quick browse, how does one define "Light Infantry" from "Guard Infantry"? Is "Light Infantry" the exclusive domain of Veteran Squads? Furthermore while I'm talking Veterans, the Rangers Doctrine might need adjusting, mostly to account for their Upgrades. My recommendation would be thus:

Rangers (Light Infantry Only): Any model with this doctrine has the Stealth and Move Through Cover special rules. If this Doctrine is taken, Veterans cannot purchase Carapace Armor.*

I had thought about adding Forward Sentries to that list as well, but then it makes more sense for the Squad in question to be Carrying Snare Mines as opposed to big bulky Carapace Suits. On the other hand though, I'm concerned about how this would stack with Cameoline granted by the same equipment. There's also Demolitions (confusingly named with your Demolitions Doctrine) to consider. Actually, I'd also propose changing the name of Demolitions to something like "Combat Engineers" or "Sappers".

On a side note, do people actually throw Grenades into combat? Gotta say I've never seen that happen even once.

Abhumans I'll think about, but as you might imagine, there are a lot of the blighters. Not just Ogryns, Ratlings and Wyrdvanes (Psychic ability is a mutation after all) but there are less explored ones like the Afriel Strains, Felinids and even the dreaded Squats who have regiments.

Then again, that might have to be a full seperate project in and of itself given the crazy numbers of Mutants and Abhumans the Guard has.

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2015, 07:44:49 AM »
Whoops, I should have mentioned:

Before you pick your doctrines, you have to declare what short of army your infantry are.  Your regimental organisation.  You declare your army as either Line, Light or Mechanized infantry, and once again it effects all your company command, veteran and infantry platoon units in your army.  Now at the moment, this only effects what doctrines you can take.  But I want each one of them to have bonuses of their own.  And I also want them to have benefits at the formation and detachment level.

For example, an idea I was toying around with was to allow Mechanized infantry officers to issue the tank orders to Tauroxes and chimeras as per the usual rules for orders (with the vehicle counting as leadership 8 unless there's a model with a higher leadership on board.  And the vehicle also counts as having a vox caster).  So you could have your transports go faster whilst traveling flat out, or pop their smoke after shooting.  In turn, dedicated transports can be formed up into squadrons (max 3). 

And if you take Mechanized infantry in a battlegroup detachment, any dedicated transports are free!  Because a battlegroup goes to war properly equipped.  Bare in mind that a battlegroup is made up of formations, so they'll still be a lot to buy.

It's all really work in progress at the moment though, so I'm very open to suggestions.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 09:32:49 AM by Skitarii Santa »

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2015, 09:40:22 AM »
Whoops, I should have mentioned:

Before you pick your doctrines, you have to declare what short of army your infantry are.  Your regimental organisation.  You declare your army as either Line, Light or Mechanized infantry, and once again it effects all your company command, veteran and infantry platoon units in your army.  Now at the moment, this only effects what doctrines you can take.  But I want each one of them to have bonuses of their own.  And I also want them to have benefits at the formation and detachment level.

You might also want to think about Equipment and choices as well. I doubt that folks like the Catachan and Tallaran use much in the way of Armoured Vehicles (Leman Russes aren't exactly sneaky!), while the Steel Legion are going to be positively teeming with Armoured Vehicles and possibly Carapace Armor (i.e: Veterans upgraded with the stuff).

For example, an idea I was toying around with was to allow Mechanized infantry officers to issue the tank orders to Tauroxes and chimeras as per the usual rules for orders (with the vehicle counting as leadership 8 unless there's a model with a higher leadership on board.  And the vehicle also counts as having a vox caster).  So you could have your transports go faster whilst traveling flat out, or pop their smoke after shooting.  In turn, dedicated transports can be formed up into squadrons (max 3). 

Honestly, the Tank orders sound cool. The Squadroning Dedicated Transports thing on the other hand is a headscratcher - namely, what slot would they occupy? Fast Attack?

And if you take Mechanized infantry in a battlegroup detachment, any dedicated transports are free!  Because a battlegroup goes to war properly equipped.  Bare in mind that a battlegroup is made up off formations, so they'll still be a lot to buy.

I'm still not sure about the Free Transport deal. When the old Doctrines were written, still paying for your Chimeras if you took the Mechanised Doctrine was meant to be the offset, as it meant one the big advantages of Guard - lots of cheap expendable infantry - was negated. Free Chimeras might be a bit overkill as you drown the enemy in so much C. S. Goto.

On the other hand, I know this has popped up in the recent Marines Codex.

On a side note, I have a proposed suggestion for Abhuman Regiments. Behold:

Advantage: May take Ogryn Squads as Troop Choices in a Combined Arms Detachment.

Disadvantage: For every Ogryn Squad taken in the Detachment, you must take at least one Commissar or Ecclesiarchy Priest, which must be attached to a Unit of Ogryns. The Eyes of the Emperor are upon them!

I had thought about giving them access to an Abhuman Doctrines list, but that might be overdoing it and when you think about it, there's enough on your workload already  ;)

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2015, 12:08:38 PM »
I'm sorry, I forgot to address some of your earlier questions.  Let me answer them altogether.

About grenades, I hear that not a lot of people actually bother to throw them.  Little point in doing so really.  OK, I knew that one needed work.  Maybe it could be expanded to say that all assault weapons used by the unit are...what, twin-linked?  Is that too much?

And yeah, the veteran doctrines sharing names with these doctrines will only get confusing.  Since they have that forward sentry doctrine which sounds more like a role rather than a skill, maybe demolitions can be renamed combat engineers like you said (like the death korp units) and grenadiers can stay the same. 

Actually, using the death korps as an example, they've got both grenadier and combat engineer units.  Both have carapace armour, and both have other specialists gear not available to the regulars.  Yes, their stats are different, but I think it's a good way to look at things.  So yeah, we could rename demolitions to combat engineers.  Meanwhile, we could rename my version of grenadiers to shock assault or something like that.  Twin-linked assault weapons will favour shotguns, pistols, greanades, flamers and meltas nicely.  It's not too much is it though?  Maybe set out a condition?

As for the vehicle squadrons, the rule would literally be like combined squad for vehicles.  Before the game starts, you declare that transports x y and z are hereby one squadron for the game.  They are otherwise still just the dedicated transport of their parent unit, so no force organisation slot used up.  Platoon unit transports can only be squadroned with the transports of other units from the same platoon.  And the maximum number of vehicles allowed in a single squadron is 3.

About free transports; maybe you're right.  It is open to abuse I guess.  Unless you limit to certain formations.  The marines got something similar.  How about, the Mechanized Emperors Sheild Infantry Company.  This consists of 1 CCS and 3 Infantry Platoons.  That's a minimum of ten squads, costing you 450pts before you buy a single upgrade.  Factoring in ten chimeras as an example, that's another 650pts on top of that.  That's 1100pts of bare bones units, and you can probably add another 200pts on top of that for upgrades.  1300pts.  No one is going to go for that.  Free transports is almost essential.  So, in addition to one common bonus that effects the formation regardless of doctrine, the three regimental types get their own unique bonus, of which the Mechanized Infantry one is free transports. 

I think I'll really need to go through those skill doctrines again.  Some of them don't seem right.  And I need more.  That's a good idea for the abhumans.  We usually have a lot of troop slots to spare! :D

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2015, 03:35:39 PM »
I'm sorry, I forgot to address some of your earlier questions.  Let me answer them altogether.

About grenades, I hear that not a lot of people actually bother to throw them.  Little point in doing so really.  OK, I knew that one needed work.  Maybe it could be expanded to say that all assault weapons used by the unit are...what, twin-linked?  Is that too much?

To use your standard squad of Guardsmen, this covers the Grenade Launcher, Meltagun and Flamer. I'm not 100% how you resolve a Twin Linked Flamer (old house rule of yore was that it re-rolled failed To Wound rolls, but I'm not sure if that still applies), however twin linked Meltagun isn't that brutal (even five of them have to deal with a stogy 12" range), and to be honest the Grenade Launcher is one of those weapons that could use a buff. Twin Linking sounds like a move in the right direction there.

Actually, using the death korps as an example, they've got both grenadier and combat engineer units.  Both have carapace armour, and both have other specialists gear not available to the regulars.  Yes, their stats are different, but I think it's a good way to look at things.  So yeah, we could rename demolitions to combat engineers.  Meanwhile, we could rename my version of grenadiers to shock assault or something like that.  Twin-linked assault weapons will favour shotguns, pistols, greanades, flamers and meltas nicely.  It's not too much is it though?  Maybe set out a condition?

So as I'm seeing this right now:

Combat Engineers: The Regiment is trained in the harsh and brutal crucible of Close Quarters Warfare, which has lead them to become masters of short ranged warfare. All Shotguns, Melta Weapons and Flamer Weapons become twin linked. In addition, any Guard Infantry squads may exchange any Lasguns for Shotguns for +2pts per Model.

That last line might need some tweaking. The idea is to give IG Units Shotguns at a cost...however, it's at a Cost. As opposed to Veterans who can take them for free.

As for the vehicle squadrons, the rule would literally be like combined squad for vehicles.  Before the game starts, you declare that transports x y and z are hereby one squadron for the game.  They are otherwise still just the dedicated transport of their parent unit, so no force organisation slot used up.  Platoon unit transports can only be squadroned with the transports of other units from the same platoon.  And the maximum number of vehicles allowed in a single squadron is 3.

Okay, sounds reasonable, at least on paper.

About free transports; maybe you're right.  It is open to abuse I guess.  Unless you limit to certain formations.  The marines got something similar.  How about, the Mechanized Emperors Sheild Infantry Company.  This consists of 1 CCS and 3 Infantry Platoons.  That's a minimum of ten squads, costing you 450pts before you buy a single upgrade.  Factoring in ten chimeras as an example, that's another 650pts on top of that.  That's 1100pts of bare bones units, and you can probably add another 200pts on top of that for upgrades.  1300pts.  No one is going to go for that.  Free transports is almost essential.  So, in addition to one common bonus that effects the formation regardless of doctrine, the three regimental types get their own unique bonus, of which the Mechanized Infantry one is free transports.

In that circumstance, Free Tauroxes or Chimeras would work to help offset that. By Unique Bonus however, does that mean Light Infantry (for example) would get something special if you don't take them as CAD?

That's a good idea for the abhumans.  We usually have a lot of troop slots to spare! :D

Yay, I did something useful!  ;D

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2015, 07:24:29 AM »
To use your standard squad of Guardsmen, this covers the Grenade Launcher, Meltagun and Flamer. I'm not 100% how you resolve a Twin Linked Flamer (old house rule of yore was that it re-rolled failed To Wound rolls, but I'm not sure if that still applies), however twin linked Meltagun isn't that brutal (even five of them have to deal with a stogy 12" range), and to be honest the Grenade Launcher is one of those weapons that could use a buff. Twin Linking sounds like a move in the right direction there.

I can't say too much because of the rules of the site, but you're in the ballpark with regards to flamers.  Anyway, I'm glad you like it!  Do you think that a straight up twin linking of their assault weapons is OK, or should there be a condition to it, such as it only applies when they just disembarked off a transport or arrived from reserve?

So as I'm seeing this right now:

Combat Engineers: The Regiment is trained in the harsh and brutal crucible of Close Quarters Warfare, which has lead them to become masters of short ranged warfare. All Shotguns, Melta Weapons and Flamer Weapons become twin linked. In addition, any Guard Infantry squads may exchange any Lasguns for Shotguns for +2pts per Model.

That last line might need some tweaking. The idea is to give IG Units Shotguns at a cost...however, it's at a Cost. As opposed to Veterans who can take them for free.


I'm not sure if giving 'normal' guardsmen shotguns would work.  I think they're better suited to Officers and NCOs, or at least very dedicated specialists, which the veteran squads represent very well.  Incidentally, sometimes I like to think that some Veteran squads are made up of corporals to master sergeants.  I wish they could have an Officer in there.  Actually, in addition to these doctrines, I have lots of suggestions to change the units themselves.  But that's a whole different discussion.  ;)

Okay, sounds reasonable, at least on paper.

I hope it's not too OP.  I mean, it probably shouldn't be.

In that circumstance, Free Tauroxes or Chimeras would work to help offset that. By Unique Bonus however, does that mean Light Infantry (for example) would get something special if you don't take them as CAD?

They would indeed, yes.  But what they get I have no idea at the moment. :P  And of course, Line Infantry need a bonus as well.  It's literally one bonus for all three (probably something to do with orders), and then one unique bonus for each one of them.


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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2015, 08:54:28 AM »
I can't say too much because of the rules of the site, but you're in the ballpark with regards to flamers.  Anyway, I'm glad you like it!  Do you think that a straight up twin linking of their assault weapons is OK, or should there be a condition to it, such as it only applies when they just disembarked off a transport or arrived from reserve?

For the time being, a straight Twin Linking sounds on paper like it won't be too game breaking without any strings like that.

I'm not sure if giving 'normal' guardsmen shotguns would work.  I think they're better suited to Officers and NCOs, or at least very dedicated specialists, which the veteran squads represent very well.  Incidentally, sometimes I like to think that some Veteran squads are made up of corporals to master sergeants.  I wish they could have an Officer in there.  Actually, in addition to these doctrines, I have lots of suggestions to change the units themselves.  But that's a whole different discussion.  ;)

Fair enough, just a thought.

They would indeed, yes.  But what they get I have no idea at the moment. :P  And of course, Line Infantry need a bonus as well.  It's literally one bonus for all three (probably something to do with orders), and then one unique bonus for each one of them.

Off the very top of my head, how does Line Infantry and Order Re-Rolls sound for an ability? As in the regular orders, not the special Tank or Militarum Tempestus ones.

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #18 on: December 30, 2015, 09:40:55 AM »
For the time being, a straight Twin Linking sounds on paper like it won't be too game breaking without any strings like that.

Great stuff.  As most of our assault weapons are short ranged, it encourages us to get stuck in.

Fair enough, just a thought.

I hope I don't discourage you from making suggestions.  This is a brainstorming session after all.  :)

Off the very top of my head, how does Line Infantry and Order Re-Rolls sound for an ability? As in the regular orders, not the special Tank or Militarum Tempestus ones.

Once again, I can't talk about official rules, but they already have that covered before I put my rules in.  Vox Casters.  Standard equipment.  ;)

However, the Battlegroup detachment does have an order boost for all units.  I will have to steal it.  ;D

Maybe...infiltrate without outflank?  Forward deployment? 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2015, 09:45:24 AM by Skitarii Santa »

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Re: Customising the Imperial Guard
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2015, 10:43:04 AM »
Great stuff.  As most of our assault weapons are short ranged, it encourages us to get stuck in.

And there's one thing Guard need to do, it's Melee. At least it's not Gunline/Mech Guard?  :D

I hope I don't discourage you from making suggestions.  This is a brainstorming session after all.  :)

No, it's fine. You're talking to an amateur designer himself here, so these things happen.

Once again, I can't talk about official rules, but they already have that covered before I put my rules in.  Vox Casters.  Standard equipment.  ;)

However, the Battlegroup detachment does have an order boost for all units.  I will have to steal it.  ;D

Maybe...infiltrate without outflank?  Forward deployment?

Unless I'm misreading that, I thought you meant Line Infantry. As in the traditional "Wall of Lasguns" type of playstyle.

If it's Light Infantry, maybe Forward Deployment with Stealth and/or Shrouded on the first turn of the game?

 


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