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Author Topic: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?  (Read 9525 times)

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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2015, 07:52:56 PM »
There is one thing that I think would provide more weight to the "Preferred Enemy allows the reroll" point, and it is that the rule Gets Hot and Re-rolls uses BS6+ as an example of a time when the you can reroll the result.

The wording for BS6+ says:
Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; page 33; Ballistic Skill 6 or Better
... it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a X To Hit ...

Having BS6+ grants access to the re-roll.  If we go with your logic as to why Preferred Enemy can't be used, then we would have to assume that the same argument would apply to BS6+ despite it being used as an example.  We would have to operate under the idea that because BS6+ specifies a specific result on the To Hit roll, and that Gets Hot for a blast weapon is not a roll To Hit, then it would not be permissible to re-roll.

Twin-Linked has also been brought up in this discussion, and it is generally accepted that it can allow the re-roll because it is used as an example in Gets Hot and Re-rolls.  But again, if you are arguing that the roll before firing a blast weapon is not part of the hit roll, then Twin-Linked wouldn't apply either.

As I have said before, the important factor is that Preferred Enemy grants a re-roll on the To Hit roll.  Regardless if that re-roll is dependent on a certain result or not, it does grant a re-roll.  Gets Hot and Re-rolls' only stipulation to what qualifies a model to utilize that rule is whether it can re-roll the hit or not. 

Does a Devastator (that has preferred enemy from somewhere) with a Plasma Cannon get to re-roll if he fires his Bolt Pistol if he rolls the required number?  Yes.  Does that Devastator have the ability to re-roll his To Hit roll?  Yes.  Does Gets Hot and Re-rolls give details on how to handle situations where a model has the ability to re-roll and is firing a weapon that does not roll to hit?  Yes.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #21 on: November 1, 2015, 10:48:36 PM »
This is not an easy one, however, after leaning back and forth to either side o this I think, the camp where PE can not be used for re-rolls is where I stand.

The main reason is the wording under "blast weapons and re-rolls" is exactly the same as under "gets hot and re-rolls".

Unless you are arguing PE can be used on blasts, which could allow re-rolls of all scatter results that has at least one dice that is a '1'.
For example: 'Arrow' + '6' + '1'.
Then you cannot apply PE on gets hot blasts.

I'm not saying this is wrong, however I haven't seen anyone play it this way.


@GML: The argument about BS6+ does not hold up, since BS6+ will always let you re-roll,  even if you normally only will be able to re-roll 1's with BS6+, there is the case of snap shots, which would still allow other results to be re-rolled.
PE won't let you re-roll, for example 2's, when firing snap shots.

« Last Edit: November 1, 2015, 10:51:01 PM by Fenris »
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #22 on: November 2, 2015, 12:51:29 PM »
@GML: The argument about BS6+ does not hold up, since BS6+ will always let you re-roll,  even if you normally only will be able to re-roll 1's with BS6+, there is the case of snap shots, which would still allow other results to be re-rolled.
PE won't let you re-roll, for example 2's, when firing snap shots.
Perhaps you need to read the rule for BS6+ again as it is very clear when you are granted a reroll.  Hint:  it is the same as Preferred Enemy.

Also, when firing snap shots, their BS is considered to be reduced so they would not benefit from the BS6+ rule.

This is not an easy one, however, after leaning back and forth to either side o this I think, the camp where PE can not be used for re-rolls is where I stand.

The main reason is the wording under "blast weapons and re-rolls" is exactly the same as under "gets hot and re-rolls".

Unless you are arguing PE can be used on blasts, which could allow re-rolls of all scatter results that has at least one dice that is a '1'.
For example: 'Arrow' + '6' + '1'.
Then you cannot apply PE on gets hot blasts.
Just like BS6+ doesn't let you reroll the scatter for a blast, but grants a reroll on Gets Hot.

We can use a practical application of the rule if it helps.  A Dark Angel Master has a Plasma Pistol and the Lion's Roar (a combi-plasma cannon for all intents and purposes).  If he fires his Plasma Pistol at a Chaos Space Marine, he is allowed to re-roll the Gets Hot.  That demonstrates that he clearly has access to Gets Hot and Re-rolls.  The last line then clearly indicates that he can also re-roll the result on weapons that do not roll to hit, such as if he were to fire the blast weapon from the Lion's Roar.

Does he roll the required result on the blast weapon to trigger Preferred Enemy?  Yes.  He can reroll.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #23 on: November 3, 2015, 10:59:02 PM »
@GML: You are correct about the snap shots, my bad. They are a modifier not modifiable by other modifiers unless specifically noted to do so. Hit on 6+ was the old snapire rule, I think.
Still my point stands despite it was a bad example.
BS6+ can be allowed and with a better chance of success than PE, where PE is not allowed.
BS6+ has other specific rules that apply to blasts and their scatter, PE does not have any such rules.

Quote
Does he roll the required result on the blast weapon to trigger Preferred Enemy?
NO! Even gets hot blasts do not roll to hit, hence no roll to hit of 1 can ever occur.

Since the exact same words are used to describe how blasts and gets hot blasts are used, I draw the conclusion that the same things that affect blasts will affect the gets hot blasts.

Logic then dictates that PE either affects both (blasts & blasts+gets hot) or neither.

Since there is no clear way of HOW to apply PE on normal blasts, I assume neither blasts nor get hot blasts are affected.

However the Lion's roar has the master crafted special rule, which is an entirely different rule than PE and is therefore allowed the re-roll IMHO.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #24 on: November 3, 2015, 11:18:38 PM »
BS6+ can be allowed and with a better chance of success than PE, where PE is not allowed.
BS6+ has other specific rules that apply to blasts and their scatter, PE does not have any such rules.
No, BS6+ does not have a better chance of success than PE.  In fact, it has a worse chance of success than PE unless the firing unit has BS10.  BS6+ has the exact same qualifier to grant the reroll that Preferred Enemy does, so why does one rule grant access but the other doesn't?

Neither Preferred Enemy or BS6+ allow you to reroll the scatter for blast weapons, but BS6+ is used as an example for Gets Hot and Re-rolls.  That means it clearly has access to the rule in its entirety, which includes re-rolling for weapons that don't roll to hit.  Please explain how a rule that has the exact same requirements is excluded from benefiting from the rule.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Fenris

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #25 on: November 4, 2015, 02:32:17 AM »
The PE and BS6+ does not have the exact same qualifiers.
They are however similar and in most cases only 1's will be re-rolled with BS6+, since with BS6+ you will usually hit on 2+.
However if there is a wargear (or psychic power or other rule) allowing a unit to only be hit on 4+ then the BS6+ would be able to re-roll any result of 1, 2 or 3, while PE only allows results of 1 to be re-rolled.

IMHO,PE was not written to allow units to avoid gets hot, it's just a lucky combination that works in synergy with gets hot weapons that rolls to hit.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #26 on: November 4, 2015, 08:12:26 AM »
Quote from: Warhammer 40,000 Rules; page 33; Ballistic Skill of 6 or Better
... it gains a re-roll whenever it rolls a 1 to hit ...

It doesn't say it is a re-roll if you miss, or if it allows re-rolls regardless of the result.  It flat out says you need to roll a 1.  So yeah, it has the exact same qualifier.  I'm curious why you argued that point when I quoted the rule earlier...
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #27 on: November 4, 2015, 11:26:31 AM »
Because the BS6+ chart confused me, I stand corrected.
Thank you for addressing my stupid arguments :)

Preferred enemy works for gets hot blasts.

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2015, 08:47:08 AM »
The Gets Hot roll-- for Blast weapons-- is not a To Hit roll, so Preferred Enemy does not intercede.

(I ignored the two pages of debate about this because I'm a lazy butthead).
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Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Preferred Enemy + Gets Hot + Blast Weapon = ?
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2015, 11:28:25 AM »
And it shows, because you got the answer wrong. ;)

You simply need to have an ability to re-roll a to-hit die. The gets-hot-check-roll isn't a roll "to-hit". It's a completely different mechanic.

IF you're able to re-roll a to-hit die, you're also able to re-roll the gets-hot-check-roll, per the rules for Gets Hot. You aren't re-rolling to hit, you're re-rolling the G-H-C-R because you have an ability that allows you to re-roll a to-hit die. All re-rolls are conditional, even Twin-Linked. ie. You must miss to be allowed to re-roll with Twin-linked, you can't re-roll a successful hit. Since you don't know if you'll miss till after the G-H-C-R, the re-roll is still potential, not "Guaranteed." That doesn't matter, because you have an ability that could allow you to re-roll, regardless of the conditions of being allowed to re-roll.

It's all there, you just have to read it.

 


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