Topic: Eldar Avatar, Vulcan and some TH/SS boys in CC and a Flamer template.

[Grand Master Rex Nihilo]

Well this situation was/could have been a perfect storm for my Salamander Hero and his posse.  On my opponents turn they were in close combat with the Avatar and some Harlies. The Harlies left combat after their charge leaving them engaged with the Avatar. On my turn I sped up with my rhino, the Tac squad disembarked and blasted the Harlies. The Tac squad was close to the CC. On my opponents next turn his Seer council moved up and Hvy Flamed x5 the Tac squad for 50 its!   ...

Now this is where the situation arose, he said he could have moved up another inch or two and flamed the CC also. I remarked that he couldn't target them as they were in CC so he didn't (it was a friendly game)  We laughed because that would have been funny as his Avatar is invulnerable to Flame attacks and only my lads would have been affected.

Later I was reading the rules on page 40 about shooting into CC and indeed it looks like he could have! Am I missing something, is this correct? It was always so ingrained that you couldn't shoot into CC, have I over looked this rule all this time?

BTW Vulcan would have killed the Avatar twice over but he was fortuned for 5 rounds of of annoying rerolls so in the end the battle of Flame and Melta master succumbed to the ultimate anti-flame and melta!

 

[Changeyname]

No you're fine in that you called it right

Look at page 29 under template weapons - you cannot place them so that they touch friendly models, even if they would be immune to the damage

also the key word on page 40 there is " deliberately", which this would have been the case here
If a scattering weapon hits a combat then fine, but a normal flame template attack does not scatter - these tend to be the ones no longer in BtB with the firer (or the ones which hit a certain range away from the firers muzzle, very rare indeed these days)

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

just to clarify on that one though, if he placed the template so he didnt touch the avatar and still roasted your guys while mainly targeting  the unit not in combat that is still perfectly legit.

[Drek]

just to clarify on that one though, if he placed the template so he didnt touch the avatar and still roasted your guys while mainly targeting  the unit not in combat that is still perfectly legit.

I disagree with this. As mentioned above page 40 clearly says you may not deliberately place a template or blast over units locked in CC.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

The rule for templates also states that you must cover as many opposing models as possible, so you have no choice really in how the template is placed, so I would argue that IFF the template covered as many of the models from the tact squad as possible causing it to hit models in close combat, then you have not deliberately placed it that way. It also states that you have to cover as many opposing models without touching any friendly ones.

[Guildmage Aech]

I disagree with this. As mentioned above page 40 clearly says you may not deliberately place a template or blast over units locked in CC.

Drek and Changeyname are correct, this rule specificly forbids contacting models in combat, the only exception listed is scattering when the end placement is not upto the choice of the player.

The rule for templates also states that you must cover as many opposing models as possible, so you have no choice really in how the template is placed....

You're correct that you don't have a choice, but you do have a restriction you must obey. Page 40 makes it not possible to place the template over models in combat, theres no exception granted to this rule so you have to follow it.

You will still cover as many opposing models as possible... avoiding the models locked in hand to hand.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

The rule for templates also states that you must cover as many opposing models as possible, so you have no choice really in how the template is placed....

You're correct that you don't have a choice, but you do have a restriction you must obey. Page 40 makes it not possible to place the template over models in combat, theres no exception granted to this rule so you have to follow it.

You will still cover as many opposing models as possible... avoiding the models locked in hand to hand.

No, it states that there no choice where you're placing the template, you MUST contact as many models in the squad that you're firing at. If you contact as many models as you possibly can, and you happen to hit models in combat then sucks to be them. Regardless, this scenario is not likely anyways.

[Guildmage Aech]

No, it states that there no choice where you're placing the template, you MUST contact as many models in the squad that you're firing at. If you contact as many models as you possibly can, and you happen to hit models in combat then sucks to be them. Regardless, this scenario is not likely anyways.

So you are attempting to claim that where page 40 clearly says you may not deliberately place a template or blast over units locked in CC it in fact means... actually you can feel free to deliberately place a template over units locked in CC?

[Changeyname]

The two exceptions are not exclusive, they are both in effect, so you must do one hand in hand with the other
So place the template covering as many as possible while at the same time not covering any models locked in CC

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

No, it states that there no choice where you're placing the template, you MUST contact as many models in the squad that you're firing at. If you contact as many models as you possibly can, and you happen to hit models in combat then sucks to be them. Regardless, this scenario is not likely anyways.

So you are attempting to claim that where page 40 clearly says you may not deliberately place a template or blast over units locked in CC it in fact means... actually you can feel free to deliberately place a template over units locked in CC?

No, I'm saying that if you deliberately do something, that you have a choice in the matter, where there is no choice here.

Let's put down things that we all agree with:

1, You MUST cover as many models as possible in the unit that you're firing at.

2, No part of the template may cover any model of your own.

3, There is no choice in the matter where the template is placed as per point 1.

So I will spell out my argument for you, just in case you're unclear on it:
If, when placing the template covers as many models as possible in the unit being fired at happens to cover models in combat, then it's all green because you have no choice in the matter and therefore isn't deliberate. However, if you can cover the same amount of models while not hitting combat then that has to be the route gone because you now have a choice in where the template goes.

[Stylez]

That's not how it works.
It is illegal to hit units that are engaged in CC. That means that if your only option involves also hitting a unit that is in CC then you may not fire at all.
The same applies to your own units. If you can not fire the template without also hitting your own units you may not fire the template.

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

That's not how it works.
It is illegal to hit units that are engaged in CC. That means that if your only option involves also hitting a unit that is in CC then you may not fire at all.
The same applies to your own units. If you can not fire the template without also hitting your own units you may not fire the template.

No, it doesn't state that at all. It states, Page 40, Shooting into and out of close combat, that you may not choose to fire into combat. You're not firing into close combat, but rather firing at a unit that is near combat.

[Guildmage Aech]

No, it doesn't state that at all. It states, Page 40, Shooting into and out of close combat, that you may not choose to fire into combat. You're not firing into close combat, but rather firing at a unit that is near combat.

Really? Because from where I'm sitting it looks like your shooting is hitting models in close combat as well. Which it is. Meaning you're obviously breaking this rule explictly forbidding hitting them with the template.

Its really not that complicated, its perfectly easy to hit as many enemies as possible without either hitting your own models or anyone in combat. All the rules are obeyed...

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

No, I'm stating that you may not choose to shoot into combat, which you're not choosing anything when you're obligated to hit as many models with the template as possible.

[Changeyname]

In which case please explain why the rules on page 40 you've reference several times use the word "deliberately" when talking about both blast markers and templates

Surely if, as you maintain there is no choice in the matter, firstly they wouldnt mention it, or would as an exception
And either way they wouldnt use the word "deliberately" as you cannot do something deliberatley if you dont have a choice about doing it 

[Disciple of Nagash: GT]

Hence why I stated that if you have the opportunity to cover just as many models while not hitting a unit in combat that you have to go that route, because you now have a choice.

[The GrimSqueaker]

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