Topic: "Am I crazy ?" -- a Possessed by Tzeentch thread

[digitalme]

I love the Raptor miniature... but as a Thousand Sons player, I can't put them in my army... except if I use Possessed CSM with daemonic flight... but that's obviously expensive: [base cost] + MoT xx + d.flight xx = 47pts flat

but, still, i like the idea... i like the mobility (versus TS slow & purposeful) and the close-combat dimension of this squad... there's also the fact that one of my friend is playing BA and and love the jump-packed death-company

so I started counting:

8 possessed marines with d. flight and 3 with doombolt (always useful before entering CC)
+
1 AC with d. flight, bolt of change and a pair of lightning claws

so, 528pts... my heart skipped a heartbeat 

worth it or not ? i dunno... but I asked myself this same question when I built a 9-chosen squad for 420pts...

so, I took a step back, to see everything in perspective, and I told myself that with this possessed squad, my total army was reaching 3500pts... and it still follows the army selection rules ! so, for me, it simply made sense as it brings diversity...

then, after convincing myself, I started to think about tactica with this squad... I have some options:
-make of it a stand-alone squad, to flank the enemy and to summon daemons
-make of it a "retinue" of my daemon-statured-winged-prince
-make of it a mobile tank-killer unit as the bolt of change works as a "hidden lascannon" and can more easily targets sides and rear of tanks
-make of it a fire-magnet target as it moves on the table and creates diversion

and I had this idea, the one I chose:

make of it a "retinue" of my Lieutenant whom has those stats:
power-weapon + CCW, bolt of change, flight, essence, mutation, master-crafted weapon, spiky bits (so i can reroll 2 missed to-hit attacks, note that when he charges he has 6 power attacks, WS 5)

so what do you think ?  suggestions ? comments ? flames ?

[jenis!z]

Never dump that many points into a single unit.  In my opinion a unit should never exceed 300 point's becuase if you play a vet., he's gonna target those units first giving him alot of victory points and possibly costing you the game.  If I were in your shoes I'd grab a 2 units of havocs stick them with the mark of Undivided and give them Rocket Launchers.  Two 5 man squads should cost you just over 300 points and it'll only take up an elite choice.   The point is you need some long range attacking and I know you can take a couple of units from another chapter/legion.   And if you choose havocs you should be far more safe.  Beef up your HQ by giving him daemon armour,aura,rune, and flight.  Flap around the field and regin chaos whever you can.  He'll soak up alot of heavy fire but the rune won't let him suffer from an instant kill.

[CD]

Well, if you were in his shoes, you couldn't take Havocs, jenisiz...

On that note however, you could be saving a ridiculous amount of points by just taking Raptors, and relinquishing the Thousand Sons rules. Think about it: you'd be costing yourself approximately 13xnumber of existing squads, and saving yourself the headache of using such an expensive, gambling unit. You could get a few Dreads/Preds/HQs for the points you're paying, and all would perform much better, and die off in chunks, rather than all at once.

Think about it: over 500 points for something less resilient than 8 terminators and without power weapons. Or, compared to Raptors with Furious Charge, very slightly more resilient (more than offset by the fact that they'll be shot far more), and using ridiculous psychic powers at around twice the points. Only 3 models with doombolt? Come one. Look at how much you're wasting on the other possessed.

I don't think this is a good idea. I'm not someone who hates innovation or anything, but this has been tried before, and always it's failed. We always say it's going to fail not because we're traditionalist CSM players or something, but because strategically it just shouldn't work.

[DevilSquid]

It's squads like the possessed and Chosen that make me wish there was a 'dumbed down' version of the Mark of Tzeentch that you could take.

Something like 5pts, which give Fearless and Demonic Fire.

I would say add another wound, but possesed with 2 wounds would be WAY too powerful.

While I could see Chosen as being a group of sorcerers, I don't see Possessed as being sorcerers. So you pay 5pts to make them fearless and demonic fire, and you'll lose a lot problems with that unit. (Granted, it would wind up giving the possessed two 'powers', one with Dem Fire and the other bought as normal, but hey, the other Marks of Chaos do that already, +1A, +1T, +1I)

So to sum up: Chosen as Sorceres don't bother me, as that makes sense...it's expensive as crap, but that's cool.
But the Mark for Possessed should either be 10pts and +1wound, or 5pts and demonic fire (plus fearless for them both).

But that's just me.

D-DS

[jenis!z]

So wait, If i can take tzeentch as an elite choice, why cant a tzeentch player take an undivided as an elites choice.  It says in the codex that a unit with any other mark can be used as an elites choice or m I blind.

[CD]

Thousand Sons. Ie no units without MoT. Not blind perhaps, but you're looking at the wrong page.

[DevilSquid]

Yeah, it's the difference between a Thousand Sons force, and a Tzeentch Flavored force...

There's a lot of strong points to be made fo the Tzeentch Flavored army, as you get more choices available than the Thousand Sons do.

D-DS

[jenis!z]

Yeah, I re-read the chaos book and this time paid attention to the seperate books (book of nurgle and so forth) your can't take any thing like that but I do have an idea.  What you do is take a unit of chosen champs and just give 'em flight.  Pretty sure you can do that.  But the one thing your gonna need is heavy support.  Take 3 tanks, preditors, with the twin linked las cannons.  That's the only tank busting or spacemarine cracking weaponry you can really take.

[TDB]

I tested out the points values on Thousand Sons Raptors too and if you really want to use the Raptor models or convert them then go ahead and use them.  If you want something useful though then look elsewhere as 500points is far too much for only 9 models that are going to get slaughtered.

What you do is take a unit of chosen champs and just give 'em flight.

Well in the Book of Tzeentch is only says that they may select from the psychic powers and equipment section.  Whether they can access the rest of the armoury is arguable IMO. 

Oh and do you have to upgrade the Chosen to AC for them to get the automatic upgrade to sorcerers or just to get +1A?

[CD]

Eh.. TDBeavers.. you seem to have misunderstood..

They're Champs, so they naturally have access to the armoury, not just basic Chosen. And to your question, Chosen with the MoT are Sorcerors and can choose equipment from the psychic section. Upgrading them to Champs (in whole or part) gives the champs the increase in statistics as well as access to the rest of the armoury, beyond the psychic wargear section.

Not that I recommend either chosen ACs with Flight or Tzeentchian Chosen. Mixing those two would create some kind of terribly overpriced monster. Lessee, that's 52 points per model before psychic powers or any additional wargear past pistols and ccws. Not a quality investment, sir.

[TDB]

Upgrading them to Champs (in whole or part) gives the champs the increase in statistics as well as access to the rest of the armoury, beyond the psychic wargear section.

That's what i thought.  I was a bit unsure on that (reading the Chosen section confused me a bit, probably just me reading into it too much though). 

In any case that's still going to be one hell of a unit even i have difficulty justifying the cost just for some raptors.  As for your question however... well 9 flying possessed with a that are flying around?  If you can't make it into combat real quick then they are going to be five kinds of dead.  What exactly are they going to be flying to?  After all they are going to have to kill the equivelant of 37 CSMs or 2 land raiders to make their points back (not including the Lt.).

[WolfLord_Adz]

All in all, it can be said that the only barely affordable possessed in a tzeentch army are those with talons, and maybe 1 woc for good measure.  Tried it against my mates eldar yesterday, it really did the trick, hammered half a squad of banshees and removed 2 wounds off a wriathlord. Pop em in a rhino and send em on their merry way, 5 is definatly maximum for my 1500 list lol.

Adz

P.S CD is right, pretty much all but daem. fire possessed have been game tested and it just isnt worth point for point in a tzeentch army, just buy another 2 dreads/preds for the same cost

Adz