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Author Topic: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.  (Read 2591 times)

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Offline MagicJuggler

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[1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« on: September 12, 2016, 10:21:44 AM »
Earlier, I wrote up a similar list that used an allied Gorepack, but found that as I was putting more points in the Black Crusade component, I kept reducing the number of units I had in the Gorepack to the point that the potential to truly take advantage of the "Blood for The Blood God" table became increasingly distant. Also, I wanted to take some Psykers so I could have an opportunity to play with the "new" powers for CSM. Thus, I have the following list so far. Let me know your thoughts on how this looks:

==Black Crusade Detachment==
Free VOTLW is always nice :)
=Chaos Warband=
Note: Everything in this formation is Obsec.
Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Power Fist, Sigil of Corruption - 150 [Warlord]
Chaos Sorcerer w/ ML 2, Bike, Force Axe, Spell Familiar - 120
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun/Bolt Pistol/CCW, rest have Bolt Pistol/CCW - 97
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun/Bolt Pistol/CCW, rest have Bolt Pistol/CCW - 97
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun/Bolt Pistol/CCW, rest have Bolt Pistol/CCW - 97
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun/Bolt Pistol/CCW, rest have Bolt Pistol/CCW - 97
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40
5 Chosen, 2 Plasma Guns - 120
-Rhino - 35
5 Chosen, 2 Plasma Guns - 120
-Rhino - 35
3 Bikers, replacing two TL Bolters w/ Flamers. Champion has Meltabombs - 85
3 Bikers, replacing two TL Bolters w/ Flamers. Champion has Meltabombs - 85
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 115
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 115
=Spawn Auxiliary=
2 Spawn w/ Mark of Nurgle - 72
2 Spawn w/ Mark of Nurgle - 72
==Daemon Ally Detachment==
=HQ=
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc - 70
=Troops=
12 Horrors of Tzeentch - 108
Total Points: 1850

Army Notes: The Lord joins one unit of Spawn, while the Sorcerer joins the other unit. The Horrors/Herald roll on Malefic Daemonology. Thanks to the Draft FAQ, they get both Psychic Focus and Chaos Psychic Focus. I get three chances to roll for the powers I really want (Cursed Earth, Sacrifice, and I'm ok with the Herald getting Dark Flame).

I prefer to take units in doubles, so I can either split the army into two self-contained "cohorts" of:
-2 Units of Line Infantry (The Melta Chaos Marines in Rhinos)
-1 Unit of "Rifle" Infantry (The Chosen)
-1 Unit of Light Cavalry: (Bikers)
-1 Unit of Heavy Cavalry: (HQ + Spawn)
-1 Unit of Artillery: (Havocs)

With the Tzeentch Daemons serving as a "Support" element/holding backfield objectives.

The earlier version of this list downgraded one of the Chosen Units to a unit of Havocs with 2 Plasmaguns, so I could replace the Tzeentch Herald with Masque (for anti-deathstar tech),  and give the last two Rhinos Dozer Blades. However, I was restless about the units not being perfect duplicates (I'm OCD like that). While it's not likely to matter *too* much in game, I figure that since Chosen don't pay the Champion Tax, I'm effectively paying 15 points to give the entire squad +8 attacks (for the +1 attack and the extra CCWs), and +1 Leadership. While I lose the Masque dances, I gain the extra Malefic roll and WC, and the ability to hide in the Horrors, and I figure that since the Havocs are able to "midrange", their Rhino has more freedom of movement to avoid Dangerous Terrain anyway.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2016, 10:42:17 AM »
This looks like a pretty reasonable MSU list. It lacks a degree of firepower at range, but it has the mobility to probably make up for that, and 8 Autocannons are probably not going to be high on the target priority list in a list like this.

A 5 die psychic phase isn't a hell of a lot. Sacrifice is the only summoning I think you're likely to pull off with regularity, unless you relegate your Sorcerer to not casting very much. Generally I'd say you were using the Horrors and Herald to pull dice to power the sorcerer and not vice versa. I guess, as ever, it comes down to who rolls what powers.

On a side note: I've found the whole "summon more horrors/Tzeentch Heralds to get more warp charge" to be a fine strategy in theory, but not wonderful in actual execution. You spend more of your time summoning things to get more power, and less of your time using that power to actually win the game.

Anyway, the new psychic powers look very cool for chaos and I'd recommend using the small bit of power you get off of the Tzeentch Daemons to power that stuff and not vice versa. 

Final point: Why the disc? Is the Herald hanging out with the bikers? I'd say those points would be better spent in buying him another psychic level.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2016, 12:22:36 PM »
I never was a fan of the "Recursive Summon Factory", but getting the occasional unit of chaff off (Daemonettes/Flesh Hounds/Herald Chariots) is always nice to have. Worst comes to worst, the Daemons provide a fairly resilient battery ("Go to Ground"+"Reroll 1s") for the Sorcerer to take advantage of (since he did take a Spell Familiar)

The Herald cannot join non-Daemon units, but it may occasionally want to split off and provide secondary fire support/harassment. Move 12, cast a power, then turbo out of retaliation range. I remember when Eldar were able to do a similar thing with a Jetseer equipped with the Mantle of the Laughing God.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 12:27:59 PM »
I never was a fan of the "Recursive Summon Factory", but getting the occasional unit of chaff off (Daemonettes/Flesh Hounds/Herald Chariots) is always nice to have. Worst comes to worst, the Daemons provide a fairly resilient battery ("Go to Ground"+"Reroll 1s") for the Sorcerer to take advantage of (since he did take a Spell Familiar)

I think the latter will be more useful than the former, in most cases. 

Quote
The Herald cannot join non-Daemon units, but it may occasionally want to split off and provide secondary fire support/harassment. Move 12, cast a power, then turbo out of retaliation range. I remember when Eldar were able to do a similar thing with a Jetseer equipped with the Mantle of the Laughing God.

Oh, right--allies rules in 7th. Forgot. I haven't actually *used* allies since 6th edition.

I dunno about the feasibility, there. I guess getting off Flickering Fire is worth it much of the time, as long as you have infantry to shoot at. On the plus side, nobody is going to waste too many bullets on him.

I'd still say giving him the bonus level and sticking him in with the Horrors would work out better. A disc-mounted Lv1 really doesn't have a lot to offer.

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2016, 08:24:31 AM »
I did some more tweaks here and there. I decided to switch the Marines from BP/CCW loadouts to just regular Bolter/BP loadouts, and tenatively test out merging the Spawn into one auxiliary unit, and give my Sorcerer anf Herald the extra MLs. I still kept the disc just because.


==Black Crusade Detachment==  
Free VOTLW is always nice   
=Chaos Warband=  
Note: Everything in this formation is Obsec.  
Chaos Lord w/ Mark of Nurgle, Bike, Power Fist, Sigil of Corruption - 150 [Warlord]  
Chaos Sorcerer w/ ML 3, Bike, Force Axe, Spell Familiar - 145  
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun, rest have Bolters/Bolt Pistols - 95  
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40  
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun, rest have Bolters/Bolt Pistols - 95  
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40  
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun, rest have Bolters/Bolt Pistols - 95  
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40  
5 Marines. Champion has Combimelta, 1 Marine has a Meltagun, rest have Bolters/Bolt Pistols - 95  
-Rhino w/ Dozer Blade - 40  
5 Chosen, 2 Plasma Guns - 120  
-Rhino - 35  
5 Chosen, 2 Plasma Guns - 120  
-Rhino - 35  
3 Bikers w/ Mark of Khorne, replacing two TL Bolters w/ Flamers. Champion has Meltabombs - 91  
3 Bikers w/ Mark of Khorne, replacing two TL Bolters w/ Flamers. Champion has Meltabombs - 91  
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 115  
5 Havocs, 4 Autocannons - 115  
=Spawn Auxiliary=  
3 Spawn w/ Mark of Nurgle - 108 
==Daemon Ally Detachment==  
=HQ=  
Herald of Tzeentch on Disc and ML 2 - 95 
=Troops=  
10 Horrors of Tzeentch - 90 
Total Points: 1850

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2016, 03:01:20 PM »
I kinda liked the CCW/BPs in the CSM squads, honestly. Gave them a little punch in CC for what would otherwise be a couple wound counters in a squad with some meltaguns. I guess I just thing the extra attacks + hatred would pay off better against Space Marines and such.

The extra levels are a good idea. A 6 die phase makes summoning actually feasible, if needed (if the Horror score Boon of Flame, all the better--free Burning Chariots are a *bargain*).

Still think the list is pretty strong overall. Let us know how it does!

Offline MagicJuggler

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2016, 09:53:26 AM »
I should be able to run a proxy game fairly soon, the last 2 Rhinos are going to be amusing to stand in for.

One last change I'm going to do is replace the 2nd ML on the Herald with Paradox. I lose an ML, but I can flip my dice results so 5 WC=an automatic summon of choice (assuming my foe doesn't deny, of course).

Offline Wyddr

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Re: [1850] - Black Crusade Rhino train with allied Daemons.
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2016, 04:26:25 PM »
Good call. Big fan of the Paradox.

 


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