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Author Topic: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.  (Read 1727 times)

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Offline Void_Dragon

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"Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« on: December 23, 2007, 11:58:47 AM »
Hey all, I posted this over on a different forum, but thought I would throw it up here, as well. It was written for a Khorne specific board, but the ideas apply across all the Gods.

So, I have seen a lot of discussion on this and other forums about how fluff is dead in the new 'dex. I hear a lot of things about "I give up, I'm using a Tzeentch sorceror in my World Eater army..." and people either saying "Go ahead, fluff is dead" or "Nooooo, don't give in! Purity!". And I have to say that this is all pretty narrow minded. I thought I would go through some non-Khorne units in the new 'dex and give fluffy, bloody (not two things that normally go together) examples of how to use them with your Khorne/World Eater army.

So, here are some things that I think people should think about:

1. I consider Khorne to be about complete, total, unrelenting, devastating martial domination. I subscribe to the theory that it is possible for warriors  to be seduced to worship Khorne with the ideals of the warrior. Perhaps they can start as honorable, but sooner or later, they can no longer do anything but kill. If they started as an honorable warrior, perhaps they completely lose it and think that if they are not constantly killing enemies, they are losing honor, and that if someone tells them to calm down or stop, that person has to die for insulting his honor. Long story short, I don't go for purely mindless Khorne, I go for at least a little variation, and find it hard to believe that any general would pass up the opportunity to use some long ranged devastation.

2. That being said, nearly every unit in the army can have bolt pistol/close combat weapons, just like our favorite big red guys. Berzerkers undergo psycho surgery to make them, well, psychos. Who is to say that their psycho-surgery can't have a little variation, and make them...say...too psychotic or muscle bound to feel pain, but not quite as fast and strong so as to give them a devastating charge. Use the Plague Marine rules. FnP, T5, and hell, throw in some flamers for good measure. Khorne likes boiling, burnt blood, too. To represent them, take regular Berzerker models, give them bare limbs/ beef them up a bit with GS/Plasticard, and call it good.

3. Named characters may be named, but now you can give them a new name, and use the same rules with your own model built to go with your army:

Krallthax BoilBlood (Lucius)

Kralthrax is a peerless warrior: swift, brutal, and merciless. His every movement is murder, and each step is a life extinguished in a gruesome spray of arterial blood. He has adorned his armor with all manner of hooks, blades, spikes, and other, more horrible, devices of Bloodletting. Any who approach close enough to land a blow upon his hellacious body is in danger of being ripped to pieces by his armor (armor of shrieking souls). His armor is also fastened with a variety of wickedly barbed chains, each ending in some horrific blade of unimaginable sharpness. These chains act as extensions of his own body, and lash out at his enemies in a great cloud of chattering metal, clinking chain, and the terrifying whine of blades so sharp that they cleave the air itself (doom siren). He wields in his gauntleted fist an axe forged in the heat of battle, and quenched in the blood of slain enemies. This blood has never dried, and causes agony and terror in all who come in contact with it, rendering them vulnerable to Kallthrax' fury (lash of torment).

4. Sorcery. Ok, Khorne hates sorcery. We know. We understand. He also blesses his followers with all manner of horrifying gifts. Such as the ability to cause complete, unreasonable rage in his enemy, overwhelming them so much with his acts of barbarity and mutilation, that their behavior becomes erratic and uncontrollable by their commanders (lash of torment). The recipient of this gift uses it to his advantage, and has learned to strike swiftly while the opportunity is available to him (I bonus from MoS).

5. Regular marines. Ok, so we know how to model the MoK onto Khorne models. But how about the MoS on a Khorne model? Give them spears: they use the length of their weapons to strike before the enemy can defend itself, destroying their enemies quickly so they can move on to destroy more. MoT? Huge, spiked shields or extra huge armor, as they cover their bodies so they don't have to think about defense, and trust their armor to keep them alive long enough to murder their share of weaklings for their God.


So, I just off the top of my head made an army with Lucius, a Slanneshi sorcerer, Plague Marines, and regular chaos marines marked with Slannesh, Nurgle, and Tzeetch, and made it into a Khorne army. Khorne may be crazy, but he's not stupid. Use all the weapons at your disposal, and choose the one that will destroy your enemy in the most spectacularly gory and glorious way possible.


How about you guys? You have any other "counts as" ideas? Looking at Abbadon's stats, it would be really easy to convert a puree machine like him into a Khorne lord of some kind, and looking at obliterators, I can picture some crazed warriors forcing the fallen tech priests to graft more and more weapons onto them so they never run out of ammo, and can just continually press forward, blazing away, ripping their enemies to pieces with heavy weapons fire.

That's about it for this post. It's really late, so hopefully this all made sense. I also would like to say that I'm not trying to call anyone out here, and I'm not saying that my idea is the best. If you think that a pure Khorne army is the best way to go to represent our fluff, go for it. My army at the moment is 4 squads of berzerkers, 2 of bloodletters, a khorne lord in terminator armor, and a defiler, so I'm not even taking my own advice (though, that is because I haven't finished my bike/raptor/terminator/possessed squads yet, and also because I had all these laying around and don't have the cash to invest in a newly converted army right now).

Ok, that's all. Sorry this was so long, I was having fun.

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Offline Kiefatar

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2007, 12:05:12 PM »
Thats how many people should play and accept it. With the death of the 'cult' armies, people are going to play, using every tool in the new codex, as they please, and its fairly easy to fluff reasons why slaanesh would have some soldiers with similar properties as Plague Marines, Khorne Berserkers and maybe even Tzeenthian.

There could be reasons why a Nurgle sorcerer would have similar properties to a Slannesh with Lash.

WYSIWYG kind of went out the window with this latest codex so play it as you wish, and if people constantly have problems with that, well there isn't much you can do about it save just find new people.

Inventive and cohesive fluff does help some swallow the pill though.
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Offline Daemon Prince Bubonicus the Black

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2007, 12:56:00 PM »
that was a very enjoyable read. I like the ideas of the Tzeentch Warriors icon fitting in through them being modelled as a Khorne Berserker with extra armour. The only problem with that is the fact they don't have the extra attack of the Khorne Icon :( But still, they're walking across the battle field in massive armour, attacking enemies as the walk... sounds fun :)
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Offline Void_Dragon

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2007, 01:21:26 PM »
Yeah, they wouldn't get the +1A, but that's because they are slowed down by their bulky armor. =]
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Offline Markay

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2007, 08:44:38 AM »
That was a very good read, I couldn't agree more with your points! If anything your ideas actually make a chaos army much cooler and varied than spamming squads of 8 beserkers all with the same upgrades. All it takes is a little imagination and you have a full khorne army with mucho variety and character.

Nice one  :D

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2007, 09:12:24 AM »
Very cool stuff, thinking outside the box.

But.

Most of these 'situations' with count-as, fluff is dead, purity arguments, depends on the gaming group.

I'd like to say that I take a middle ground when I critique lists.  But, some gaming groups are like that, they can rest on the extremes of the spectrum...and peer pressure is a motivator for conformity.

Some people are very straightforward... " I don't care what your fluff/background is, show me your list..."  and it will read Lucius leading 3 squads of zerkers, with Kharn as his 'sidekick'... yea, those extremists will not like the list.

Sure... count-as works well in this situation...but at the end of the day, you've got 2 lists to show, the fluff/background list, and the actual list, and when you go to tournaments, army composition depends on the actual list AND other factors, not just the undead notion of ancient enemies.

My 2 Cents.
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2007, 11:37:02 AM »
I'm doing something similar now that I can.  I recently found out about some of the renegade Chaos gods (or hell you could make one up!).  I've decided I'm going to make an army for Necoho the Doubter.  I haven't figured out all of the fluff yet but Berzerkers will be The Spiteful taking out their hatred for gods and cults with acts of barbarism and cruelty.  I will use Plague Marine rules for The Disbelievers.  Their disbelief is so great that they can ignore horrific wounds because they don't believe in them, which is an idea bathed in joy for me..

CSM squads with Marks will be fellows on their way to one of the more advanced states of atheism.  I haven't figured out the other specialties but I will eventually.

Colors are going to be Black Legion-esque for purists to suck on but I'm going to add a lot of silver chains to keep everything interesting.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2007, 10:57:55 AM by Yuenglingdragon »
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Offline Ashborn

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2007, 01:53:43 PM »
I like the counts as rule, since it allows you to personalize your army so that it's more than just more of the same Berzerkers, 1k Sons, etc. I've painted Orks red and decked them out with trophies and bayonets to use as Berzerkers, and I'm currently trying to do something with corrupted Sisters of Battle to use as Chosen.

I really, really like the idea of a god of atheism (And I like the idea of a cult worshiping an atheism god even more). Ignoring wounds because they don't believe in them... very awesome. For counts as Noise Marines, maybe they could be Techmarines that rejected the religious stigma the Imperium attaches to high technology and developed advanced weaponry (since Necoho hates ALL gods, not just the chaos ones)? For 1k Sons, the Aspiring Sorcerer could be an Orator, expounding the truth and logic of atheism, while being granted sorcerous powers by his patron for his own faith in Necoho. The Rubrik Marines could be Masses, agnostics that flock to the Orator and commit fully to his words because they are unsure of their own faith. Their self-doubt turns them into unthinking automatons, accepting everything the Orator says as absolute truth.

...this is making me want to build a Necoho army.

Offline tzeentchling

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2007, 02:16:58 PM »
That depends.  I like the ideas, and so long as the models are converted appropriately (like with the ideas you've mentioned) then it's fine.  I'd have a problem if you plopped down the Lucius model and called him something else, or unconverted Plague Marines with the symbol of Nurgle on them (I've seen it done!). 
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Offline YuenglingDragon

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2007, 06:23:08 PM »
For 1k Sons, the Aspiring Sorcerer could be an Orator, expounding the truth and logic of atheism, while being granted sorcerous powers by his patron for his own faith in Necoho.
You mean their lack of faith in Necoho, right?  ;D

The Rubrik Marines could be Masses, agnostics that flock to the Orator and commit fully to his words because they are unsure of their own faith. Their self-doubt turns them into unthinking automatons, accepting everything the Orator says as absolute truth.
That's not bad.  I had also thought of Logicians with a bolter and a Shield of Logic for Rubrics.  And maybe a standard that says, "Necoho, protect me from their fallacies."  I'm going to have soooo much fun with this.

I probably ought to just have my own thread to yammer about this stuff rather than lead the hijack parade.  I'll work up some fluff and gather the rest of my ideas and do that in the next couple days.
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Offline Unbound Daemon

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2007, 08:43:46 PM »
ALL these ideas are brilliant, and for someone that normally doesn't let players at my house rep models (although using lizardmen as space marines is pushing it a bit...) that's saying something!!

Just as an aside, I would like to mention that I have used space wolves minorly converted with the spawn parts (arms, mutated armour, etc) as Nurgle Chosen. The idea is that they inflitrate by appearing (from a distance) to be loyalist or "friendly" marines. There is currently a heated debate amongst my regular group over here whether this is a good idea, so please tell me your opinions.
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Offline skywise

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #11 on: December 30, 2007, 09:29:43 PM »
Awesome Fluff. The shields on the MoT regular marines could explain why they only get bolters (that is, they're shields are too bulky for too much equipment).

My main rule when going with "Counts As" is there has to be good fluff behind it. If you're just going for "counts as" because you want what most people would call "cheese" then that's lame.

There could be reasons why a Nurgle sorcerer would have similar properties to a Slannesh with Lash.

Like giant tentacles that reach out and grab enemy models and drag them around.

Offline Sanctjud

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Re: "Counts As"...a beautiful thing.
« Reply #12 on: December 30, 2007, 10:03:49 PM »
Quote from: Kiefatar on December 23, 2007, 12:05:12 PM
Quote
There could be reasons why a Nurgle sorcerer would have similar properties to a Slannesh with Lash.

My 'count-as' pychic power for my "nurgle" Dp is (Lash of Submission) Nurgle's Dance pychic power...etc.

Posted by: skywise
 
Quote
MoT regular marines could explain why they only get bolters (that is, they're shields are too bulky for too much equipment).

HAHAH  MY NURGLE BOYS >> THOSE THOUSANDS SONS :

http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=145682.msg1830766#msg1830766

We've got bulky shields.. AND CCW/BoltPistol/Bolter/Grenades. 

My 2 Cents.
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