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Offline c-meister

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New assault rules
« on: January 18, 2002, 07:15:40 AM »
Has anyone checked out the proposed 4th ed. assault rules on GW's site (news section)? If you have what do you think about them? Personally I think characters (like the various exarchs) have been severly hampered by them, since they don't benefit from their better WS, T and save.
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Offline the_Bard_72

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #1 on: January 18, 2002, 07:27:11 AM »
I glanced over them quickly, but one other thing stuck out as well.  I didn't see anything clarifying if cover saves (or items that provide cover saves) still allow a unit to go before a charging unit if the defender is already Engaged.  I'm not saying it isn't there at all (I need to read it again), but it definitely wasn't made clear at first glance.  I thought that was the main goal of a 4th ed - to clarify.  They need to take some of the things that are "understood" and assume that they're not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Prince of the laughing god

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2002, 08:25:38 AM »
The rules are here in case any one is interested

http://www.games-workshop.com/PDFArchive/Revised_Assault_Phase.pdf


Items that provide cover saves, like conceal give no hth bonus at all and never have. Yes characters have been hampered, the court of the young kings would never be seen on the battlefield again.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Lance_of_Pain

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2002, 08:30:13 AM »
I had a chance to read through the new assault rules for 4th ed. and I think that they are terrible for everyone! Special characters and their like lose all of their purpose. I hope that the rules stay the way they are, or fielding any kind of an exarch, aspiring champion, or veteran seargent will lose almost all value and take away from the game.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »

Offline the_Bard_72

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #4 on: January 18, 2002, 08:31:20 AM »
Maybe I wasnt' clear on the cover thing...Tau Stealth Suits always go first in combat due to a special suit that treats them as "in cover"...that's the sort of thing I was referring to, not Conceal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Prince of the laughing god

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2002, 08:46:13 AM »
It dosen't say anything about the stealth suits.  ???  if it says that they are counted as in cover then you would have to assume that they are treated as in cover.

It is bad for squad leading characters exarchs in particular because a vet serg has the same stats as another marine except for one extra attack. but it is not as bad as I thought for independant characters in units because they are treated as a seperate unit, I would hope that would apply to an avatar in a court.
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Offline BlakLanner

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #6 on: January 18, 2002, 09:28:06 AM »
Section 1 - Declare Charges

A unit that fired in the shooting phase of the current turn may not declare a charge.

Umm....anyone else see a slight problem with this in relation to our weapon's range?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »

Offline Dead_Jester

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #7 on: January 18, 2002, 09:57:27 AM »
so much for harlequins shooting and charging

or striking first Vs nids due to holosuits
:'(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Addinarr

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2002, 10:07:05 AM »
Dumb.

In a unit, everyone can only use one WS. The most common one. So therefore, if we have 20 Guardians and an attached Avatar, we now have an Avatar who can only strike at WS3.

Also, you cannot charge and shoot in the same turn?! Is it just me, or did Eldar in general just get a whole lot more useless? Our incredibly short ranged weaponry just became our undoing! Our Guardians are now laughable, as they can no longer count on shooting and making a desperate charge. Our assault Aspects can no longer attempt to thin out the enemies numbers with a hail of shruiken pistol fire, before wading into the enemies. What about assault weapons? Isn't that what they're for?!

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Offline Lord Calamir

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #9 on: January 18, 2002, 10:19:48 AM »
I think the Avatar would strike at his proper WS 10, but an enemy striking him would roll only against WS 3.

Still, it's dumb. Haven't we had enough simplifications in 3rd Ed. already?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline c-meister

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2002, 10:32:09 AM »
Unless I'm mistaken the Avatar and the Farseer will still get to use their WS because they're Independent Characters. As such and according to the new rules, the enemy unit would have to allocate attacks to them. It's the non-independent characters that got shafted.

Also the rule that a unit either shoots or assaults just plain sucks big time.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Wraithboss

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2002, 10:42:23 AM »
I guess I'm not clear. How does it hamper the Exarchs, Sgts., etc.? I don't understand.

BTW, I see what you meen about it complicating what was supposed to be stream-lined.

Can the return of the overwatch rule be far behind?

`Boss!

nevermind I see it now...Jeeeez! >:(
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Offline Lonjon

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2002, 10:46:54 AM »
I've mixed feelings on these proposed rules.

First, I believe that the idea of units not being able to shoot if they want to charge is a bad one.  As others have stated, this alteration would be truely nasty to any unit with a 12" shooting range.

I think you may have misunderstood the the WS thing, Sandman.  You only use the bulk WS thing for figuring out the WS that you have to roll against when trying to hit.  Consider for example a squad that consists of an Avatar (WS10) and 10 guardians (WS3) fighting 10 tactical Space Marines (WS4).  When the SM roll to hit against the Eldar, they use the most common WS in the Eldar unit - in this case, a 3.  All of the SM need a 3 to hit.  When the Eldar roll against the 10 SMs, they use the most common WS in the SM squad - 4.  However, the guardians roll using their WS of 3 (4 to hit) and the Avatar still gets to use his WS of 10 (3 to hit).  I am actually happy to see this bulk WS rule go into effect.  It should make assaults easier and quicker to complete while reducing the number of rules arguments at the same time.

I'm very happy to see the elimination of the whole allocating attacks to certain models idea.  In the current (non-Cityfight) situation, a single Wraithlord/Demon/Dreadnaught can allocate all attacks to the only model in the opposing squad that has a chance of hurting it.  Allowing the defender some control over what models in his squad get removed should stop this from happening and insure that characters get a chance to strike back.  The best thing about this is that there will be no more arguments over who can allocate attacks to what.  

I would like to see something added to the allocating attacks section about assaults involving multiple enemy units - something like "When multiple enemy units are Engaged, each model must allocate attacks to the enemy unit that it is closest to.  If the model is equally distant from 2 or more enemy models, the player may choose which of these units to allocate attacks to."  This addition would be the exact same one that currently exists in Cityfight, and it seems to have worked pretty well so far.

I'm also happy to see the addition/clarification of how to allocate wounds as it applies to making armor saves and removing models.  This should have been addressed long ago, but it is still a good sign that some attention is being paid to it.

Overall, I'm happy with the changes to the assault rules.  I am pretty miffed about the no shooting and assaulting rule though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Wraithboss

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2002, 10:59:38 AM »
Lonjon: Why does the Avatar get his 10?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Lanorel

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2002, 11:10:40 AM »
Well, well, well well well...
No swooping advances;
No firing before assaulting;
No more Defend for Dire Avenger Exarch's (they're hit on the same as the rest of the squad, isn't that nice...)
Geez, some tweakings needed...?
Defend already mentioned... Luckily Avatars and Farseers aren't hit on the same as Guardians, since they're Independant Characters, but Exarchs, tss...
Btw, this makes Fire Dragons feel kinda stupid, "Okay guys, do you want to fire your fusion guns at this nice, short range, or dive in with your melta-bombs..."
And now there is no chance what's-o-ever to dive from one hth to another. Noooo, you gotta sit there like a good boy, and take a round of fire from the mon-keighs.
Nah, don't really like this...

And yeah, what the  :-X does Berzerkers need Choppas for?!?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »

Offline Wraithboss

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2002, 11:20:36 AM »
Since independants are treated as seperate units, I guess that means that the enemy's assault squad can choose to assault only the Farseer attached to the Guardian unit?

`Boss!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
" Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."
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Offline Dead_Jester

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2002, 01:29:29 PM »
i think you can assault 2 units  at once anyways, please let me know if wrong.    

but an independent character, lets use farseer for example, that joins a unit of lets say gaurdians becomes part of that unit. while hes joined, it is considered one unit.  I think :-/
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline TheExarch

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2002, 02:26:07 PM »
I dont think so, because at any time he may leave. Ive often attached Karandras to the scorpions squad i have, then made him assualt at a diff unit then the scorps charge at. I could be wrong with this but it says that an independant character may leave a unit if he joins it at any time if the player wishes. Eh...these new rules...grrr
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Dead_Jester

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2002, 03:12:16 PM »
okay, found the passage in the rulebook 75,
"An independent character may only join or leave a unit during the movement phase - once assaults are launced it is too late to join in or duck out!"

Can characters join other characters? A nid friend of mine joined a zoanthrope, carnifex, and hive together cause they are independent characerts that can join units... hokey?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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Offline Lonjon

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Re: New assault rules
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2002, 03:23:19 PM »
Found it for you, Wraithboss:

Quote
Hitting units with different weapon skills

...If for example a unit of Tau Fire Warriors (WS2) have been joined by a member of the Ethereal Caste (WS4) all the attacks against that unit will be resolved against WS2.  If there is no majority Weapon Skill type use the lowest Weapon Skill in the unit.

When models attack calculate their own to hit numbers they do so based on their own Weapon Skill.  If the Tau Fire Warriors and accompanying Ethereal strike back at their enemies the Fire Warriors to hit number will be based on a cormparison of WS2 with the enemy WS, the Ethereal on a comparison of WS4 with the enemy WS.


http://www.games-workshop.com/PDFArchive/Revised_Assault_Phase.pdf
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1011506400 »
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