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Author Topic: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep  (Read 1684 times)

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Offline Wyddr

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1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« on: August 27, 2018, 10:13:28 PM »
1500 Vostroyan AM Vs Orks: Firesweep (The Second Battle of Arendt)

The Punisher-pattern Leman Russ Battle Tank "Chainsaw Heidi" rumbled over the crater-pocked concrete of the main boulevard, flanked by platoons of infantry, their lasguns ready, their eyes searching the pitted ruins on either side of the street for enemy activity. Word had spread quickly through the 314th--a large force of greenskins, huddled near Victory Park. The ork's main force. This was it--this battle, this point in the line. The edge on which the war teetered.

Lieutenant VanFuur was in rare form, his eyes glued to the periscope, his tongue out to one side. Every cell of his body seemed to sing with the vibrations of Chainsaw Heidi's mighty engines. This was what he lived for. This was what living truly was.

"Movement!" Durst, left sponson gunner called out. "Sixty-two degrees left!"

"Mark it!" VanFuur shouted. "Pivot on my mark. Clear your weapons for action, but hold your fire, damn your pale hides!"

The tank shifted left. Around them, the infantry were moving--taking up firing positions. Sergeants were bellowing. Inside the belly of his steel juggernaut, VanFuur couldn't hear anything but Heidi's growl. His girl was hungry.

He saw them--there! Five-hundred meters and closing, a tide of hulking green orks, their crude autoguns cradled in their hands, were climbing through the desecrated ruins of Victory Park. They were already firing, the beasts--stray bullets pinged and whanged off Heidi's armor.

His crew sounded off. "Forward bolter, locked and loaded!"

"Left bolter, locked and loaded!"

"Right bolter, locked and loaded!"

Behind VanFuur in the turret, his loader Strassel fed a heavy belt of fat shells into the Punisher cannon's breach. "Punisher Cannon, locked and loaded, Praise the Emperor!"

VanFuur flipped the safety off. He traversed the turret four degrees, peering down the telescopic sight. "We are the Hammer of the Emperor!"

The crew shouted as one. "YES SIR!"

"We are the Pride of our Forefathers!"

"YES SIR!"

"We are the storm that shall cleanse the world!"

"YES SIR!"

"This tank weighs 65 tons, boys. Five of those tons are ammunition." VanFuur centered his crosshairs on a particularly large ork, howling and bellowing as it charged towards them.

"Let's lose some weight." He pulled the trigger. The rest was noise.


This battle marks the culmination of the Vostroyan effort on Orthos IV to reclaim the industrial hub of Arendt on Orthos IV - in other words, the third battle in my first campaign arc against the orks. You can read all about it [url-http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=230749.msg2771842#msg2771842]here.[/url] Suffice to say that Field Marshall Van Grune has executed a flawless encirclement and assault this far, despite the AdMech interference. Now we just need to take the city quickly. The Orks, meanwhile, are hoping to draw the conflict out and smash the city before leaving, robbing the humans of their prize.

Here are the lists:
Vostroyan City Siege Brigade
HQ
Company Commander w/Bolt Pistol, Power Maul (Warlord: Grand Strategist)
Company Commander w/Plasma Pistol, Power Sword
Company Commander w/Power Fist, Laspistol, Armor of Graf Toschenko

Troops
Infantry Squad w/Flamer 
Infantry Squad w/Flamer 
Infantry Squad w/Flamer 
Infantry Squad w/Flamer 
Infantry Squad w/Flamer 
Scions w/2 Melta, Plasma Pistol
Scions w/2 Plasma Gun, Plasma Pistol

Elites
Command Squad w/4 Plasma Guns
Command Squad w/4 Plasma Guns
Command Squad w/2x Sniper Rifles, Autocannon
Special Weapons Squad w/ 3x Meltaguns
5 Ratlings
Astropath w/Laspistol (Psychic Barrier)

Fast Attack
2 Armored Sentinels w/Plasma Cannons
Scout Sentinel w/Autocannon
Scout Sentinel w/Autocannon

Heavy Support
Mortar Squad
Lascannon Squad
Leman Russ Punisher w/Heavy Bolter Sponsons
Leman Russ Executioner w/Plasma Cannon Sponsons

Ork Shooty Battalion
HQ
Warboss w/Power Klaw, Attack Squig, Shoota (Warlord: Tenacious Survivor)
Big Mek w/Kustom Force Field
Weirdboy (Da Jump)

Troops
30 Shoota Boyz
30 Shoota Boyz
30 Shoota Boyz

Elites
10 Tankbustas

Fast Attack
3 Warbuggies w/Twin Big Shootas

Heavy Support
10 Lootas
5 Killa Kans w/Big Shootas

Mission, Terrain, and Deployment
This was a Cities of Death match, and all that that entailed (though we didn't build our armies on Power Levels and we used Matched Play rules). The Mission--Firesweep--simply meant we needed the most guys in the most key ruins as possible. That's it--no points for First Blood, Linebreaker, Warlord, nothing. Just who had the most ground claimed at the end of the game.

I'll save myself the trouble of describing the terrain by simply saying it was very, very dense--buildings and ruins all over the place. There were two main roads running from the SW part of the board to the NE. Most of those had razorwire, tank traps, rubble, and craters obscuring them. There was an objective ruin in the NE, one at the South Center, one in the middle of the board, one about middle in the West, one in the middle in the north, and finally one that was just west of the center one.

We rolled off for deployment (since we didn't exactly "place" objectives) and I won (on a roll of a 2--go figure). I picked the SW quarter and my opponent, therefore, had the NE. In this scenario, there was *no* minimum distance you had to stay away from each other, so I decided to deploy my forces at least 20" back from the enemy quarter, as I assumed my opponent would be right on the line ready to assault me. The Lascannon team occupied the western objective building with the mortar team just behind it. The Leman Russ and the Armored Sentinels anchored the SW corner and the infantry fanned out in a rough half circle in front of them, backed up by the officers and astropath. The Command Sniper squad went atop a ruin in the SE part of my zone and one scout sentinel secured that flank by scouting ahead that direction. The other scout sentinel ranged ahead of the infantry and the Ratlings hit in the northern objective ruin. The Scions would do a HALO drop and the two Plasma Command Squads and the Special Weapons Squad all took to the sewers, ready to pop up where needed.

The Orks put one 30-boy mob in the sewers (I like to think there was this whole *other* firefight going on the sewers during this whole time) and outflanked with the Warbuggies. Two 30 boy mobs went along his DZ's western edge, the Lootas went in the NE ruin, the tankbustas hid in a ruin as well, and the Killa Kans held the southern edge of his DZ. The three HQs took up the rear of the two big mobs.

Deployment


The Vostroyan corner
Mortar Teams prepare to fire
Lascannons securing the building
Ratlings in Hiding
Orks crowding the ruins
The Ork backfield
Behold, the whole city center!

Turn 1
The orks went first, as they finished deploying an ice age or so before I did. They begin by immediately exploiting a gap in my lines--I had moved the northern Sentinel too far east and not north enough, meaning 30 shoota boyz emerged from a sewer just north of my DZ. The Sentinel also caused a bit of an issue since one of the other big mobz advanced so that it was close enough to go for a charge. Then to make things even worse, the Weirdboy used Da Jump to teleport the Tankbustas into easy range to my Punisher. This meant 70 orks were on my doorstep right away and, even if I weathered the encroaching attack well, I still had 70 orks to get rid of before they tore right through my army.

In the north, the sewer shootas shot down a whole infantry squad and charged the other, wiping it out as well beneath a mountain of attacks. They were able to consolidate into one of my Company Commanders. In the east, the shoota boyz fired on the Sentinel, doing no damage, but then charged it (at 10" away--my opponent just *never* fails charge rolls. It's infuriating) and did 6 wounds exactly. I burned a CP for a Command Re-roll that saved its life and kept the boyz from consolidating any closer. The Tankbustas used the Dakka Dakka stratagem on the Punisher, but really choked on their to-hit rolls and the tank escaped with having lost only 6 wounds (a lucky break). The Lootas killed two infantry in the easternmost infantry squad and the Killa Kanz stomped around the corner of the main street and knocked a wound off my other Sentinel with their big shootas.

Top of Turn 1


All those orks came from the sewer. Can you imagine how they smell?
The northern infantry squads are overrun
Orks advance up the board center
My sentinel gets caught!

Okay, so now I've got my work cut out for me. My opponent has committed early--which he pretty much has to do. The question now is if my counterpunch is strong enough to turn back the tide. My original plan was to drop the plasma command squads along with the scions by the NE ruin to take out the Lootas and hopefully hold the building. I elect to divert those command squads, however, to assisting my defense. Both squads emerge ironically from the exact same sewer tunnels the shoota boyz had come. My remaining three infantry squads move to get rapid-fire range on as many ork mobs as possible. The ratlings pop out of hiding to take a few key shots and the special weapon squad climbs out of the sewers behind the southern objective ruin. Finally, the scions drop as the plan originally laid out--just north of the NE ruin in range to take out the Lootas.

The Astopath put a psychic barrier on the Punisher and the intrepid crew put out fires and spliced wires to get back a wound (Jury Rigging Stratagem) so that my anti-horde tank would be at full capacity. Then I set about managing a very complicated shooting phase.

The objective had to be to cripple both big mobs of boyz *and* kill the tankbustas. There was no way I could kill everybody, so I needed to knock each squad below half-strength so that morale would do its work and the Mob Rule ability wouldn't negate it all. Overkill, then, was not an option. I split my fire thusly: the Command squads and one infantry squad along with the officers present and the mortars would all fire on the sewer shootas that had already broken through my lines. The other two infantry squads and the Ratlings, Punisher (using Firstborn Pride for a BS boost), and the sniper command squad targeted the other large mob. The Executioner, Armored Sentinels, and Scout Sentinel all shot the tankbustas.

When the smoke cleared, the sewer boyz lost 23 orks, though more than half of the plasma command troopers overheated and died (though the Astropath, blind though he is, somehow managed to shoot an ork dead with a laspistol!). The other mob of shoota boyz also lost a good 24-25 guys. The Tankbustas were knocked down to 4 boyz, too. I then charged two infantry squads and the powerfist officer (and the other officer--though I shouldn't have! He fell back, but I had forgotten--didn't much matter in the end) into the Sewer Boyz, killing them all. The other big group of boyz evaporated to morale, but my opponent paid for Insane Courage to keep the Tankbustas around. That was okay, though, because the Ork Assault was blunted!

In the backfield, the Scions knocked out 6 of 10 Lootas (and the Lootas lost another guy to morale, if memory serves). The Ratlings scooted back into hiding rather than be shot by orks.

Bottom of Turn 1


Just imagine all of them bayoneting orks they've just shot.

Turn 2
After a seriously intense first turn, turn two was a bit of a lull. The Ork Warbuggies came on in the north, gunning down the unfortunate ratlings as they arrived. The last big mob of shoota boyz advanced and shot down the damaged Sentinel (to which the Imperial general gave a weary shrug). The Weirdboy smote a couple Scions and the Lootas shot a few more, but there were still two teams of 3 Special Forces dudes still on-task. The Tankbustas only scored one damaging hit on the Punisher this time and its psychic barrier save paid off (after a Command Re-Roll, of course). They then tried to charge the nearest infantry squad and they were flamered and then bayoneted to death. Finally, the Killa Kans came around the corner and tried to take out the Sniper Command squad, but they Took Cover and that, along with the boosted City of Death save, made them nigh invulnerable to the orky firepower.

Top of Turn 2


Green tide? I'm sorry, more like Gray Tide. ;)
Not close enough to do much.

Well, the enemy has nibbled at the edges of my army, but very little damage has been done to its heart. I'm in a good position now--the Scions easily kill the rest of the Lootas and the special weapons squad claim an objective ruin and their meltaguns along with the Executioner, Armored Sentinels, and Lascannons kill 4 out of 5 killa kans in the killing zone I basically set up at the start of the game (I'd been hoping the Kanz would walk around that corner and my opponent obliged me). My infantry took up positions in the objective ruin just outside my DZ--one squad in front, bolstered by the Astropath's Psychic Barrier, the other in the back and on the upper floors. They were joined by two officers. Those squads, plus the third infantry squad, the Punisher, the mortars, and the remaining command squads all pounded the remaining orks, but they were under the protection of the Kustom Force Field, which stopped about a third of the damaging hits from getting through (as it should), meaning about 12 orks were left after the smoke cleared. The Warboss then crushed the first weedy git who thought about running away and they kept going. Oh, and another plasma gunner overheated and died--a real theme this game.

Bottom of Turn 2


Moving into the building
Here stand the men of Vostroya. Let history record the day.
The Kans walk into a kill zone

Turn 3
The game is most probably over, but the orks have one last assault left in them to try and turn the tide. The warbuggies, boyz, and warboss shoot the southernmost infantry squad to death and then charge the forward squad in the ruin (the one bolstered by psychic energy). Both officers get a Heroic Intervention to try and stem the tide. I lose nine men in the ten-man squad (counting morale), but the flamer trooper is left standing. The plasma/powersword commander is wounded three times by the buggies, but manages to do a wound in return and is still standing. The warboss tries to smite the powerfist commander, but fails to get through Graf Toschenko's antique armor. The commander then turns around and does 6 wounds (!) to the Warboss, who is only saved by his unnatural resilience (he feel-no-pained 2 of those 6 wounds, leaving him with 2). The orks may have won the assault, but enough of my men were still standing to make sure this would be their last hurrah.

In the north, the last Kan turns around and makes for the scions, shooting one with his big shoota, but then fails his assault (for once!).

Top of Turn 3


Desperate, hand-to-hand combat!

As should not be surprising, my two officers and last guy fell back from combat so the other infantry squad and the Punisher could completely obliterate remaining boyz, the Executioner and plasma gunners could take out the buggies (though both plasma gunners overheated and died--that meant *all 8* died from overheats!). The lone flamer trooper, ordered to Get Back In The Fight, fixed his flamethrower on the big warboss and burned him to ash. A couple lascannons did for the Big Mek next. In the northeast, the scions occupied the building and a meltagunner shot down the last Kan. This left only the Weirdboy who, try as I might, I just couldn't wound (and one of my armored sentinels blew itself up trying to kill him, too!). With a mighty ork curse, the big greenskin vomited a rift in spacetime and escaped. Game over.

Bottom of Turn 3


Final Score
Vostroyans: Control 4 ruins
Orks: Control 0 ruins

Post Mortem
That first turn was a doozy. I was walking a narrow line in trying to neutralize all three of those targets at once--too much or too little firepower here or there, and I would still have a mob of boyz to deal with. Interestingly, I was shortchanging myself on all my first rank/second rank orders--I was taking 3 rapid fire shots with my lasguns, not 4. I could have made it easier on myself, I guess, but things worked out fine. The Punisher was pure gold in this game, knocking down 9-10 orks every turn. It held on by its fingernails in that first turn, too--I was damned lucky that the tankbustas choked at that crucial juncture.

I think my opponent was a trifle demoralized that I turned the tide so decisively, but that is also how the go-big-or-go-home strategy works--sometimes you go home. I think his deployment wasn't really ideal and he got bogged down in terrain a little, plus the large size of his mobs made it really hard for him to take advantage of cover, even in a cityfight game--there was always *somebody* who was out in the open, and that killed them. Of course, if he kills the Punisher turn 1, it becomes a different game. I would have had a lot harder time without it, that's for sure.

As usual, nobody in my army really disappointed me. I still think Armored Sentinels are overpriced for what they do, but they did okay. Scions, Command Squads, and Infantry Squads continue to be my workhorse and never disappoint. The Russes are my heavy hitters and, while they can be streaky, they did pretty well today.

This was a fun game--especially that first turn--but it does showcase the need for the orks to get some new toys and stratagems and such to better compete. Thanks for reading and thanks, as always, to my opponent!

Offline Blazinghand

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 02:19:44 AM »
A great battle report! I appreciate the photos and the diagrams.

I think the warbuggies should have been brought in for a 9.1" charge on the command squad or the special weapons squad on the other side of the map. With 'Ere We Go, they actually have a decent chance of making it in, and a Warbuggy is basically a heavy cavalry unit (though with somewhat lackluster damage output). The damage profile looks suspiciously like two Boyz standing on top of each other in a trenchcoat riding a unicycle, and that's basically how they should operate, going charging into dudes in the back and causing disruptions.

It seems like the initial shove had a good chance to cause your line to roll up entirely, and when it didn't and you stabilized with plenty of resources on the board, from then on in you had the advantage.

thanks for sharing!
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Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2018, 05:45:53 AM »
The Punisher not being destroyed on turn one and being partially repaired in your turn were the two decisive moments of this game.  I think that the Orks would have broken through to a significant extent had the Punisher been blown up, although this is still not to say that they would have won, as your Imperial Guard force has significant strength in depth.

The Ork strategy was a bold one and could well have paid off, but I too was left wondering about the size of some of those units on a Cities of Death field.  Perhaps sending in the same number of Boyz, but divided up into three mobs, rather than two, would have made a difference?  I can't say with confidence that it would, given that I no longer play, but it seems to me that it might have been feasible.

Either way, that was one of the most brutal first turns for both armies that I have ever withnessed in a game of 40K and it could have gone in favour of the Orks.  The fact that it didn't though meant that it was, more or less, game up, as the second wave lacked the necessary numbers to break through the rest of the Imperial Guard.

Congratulations on your victory and thank you for posting the report :).
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2018, 06:25:56 AM »
A great battle report! I appreciate the photos and the diagrams.

Thanks!

Quote
I think the warbuggies should have been brought in for a 9.1" charge on the command squad or the special weapons squad on the other side of the map. With 'Ere We Go, they actually have a decent chance of making it in, and a Warbuggy is basically a heavy cavalry unit (though with somewhat lackluster damage output). The damage profile looks suspiciously like two Boyz standing on top of each other in a trenchcoat riding a unicycle, and that's basically how they should operate, going charging into dudes in the back and causing disruptions.

Not sure I agree with bringing them in that side. Due to the positioning of the Sentinel down there, the Command Squad was out of bounds. He might have shot off the Specials, but then he'd have them all in tank-killer alley, which would have ended them quick. I would have brought them in turn 1, though. He really could have used the firepower.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2018, 10:58:26 AM »
Thanks for posting the write up Wyddr.  This really was a fun game and the first turn was brutal.  This is the first time out of 5 or 6 attempts the Tankbustas haven't gotten 9-12 hits using the Dakka Dakka Dakka stratagem, it was bound to happen eventually.  If they did their job this could have been a very different outcome.  I also screwed up by not realizing that initiative couldn't be seized.  I should have had the tankbustas closer to the front line and jumped the 3rd unit of boys so there were 3 blobs of boyz to shoot at instead of 2.

Even though it's a campaign I'm still trying to test out units to see what does and doesn't work.  The lootas have yet to shoot more than 1 shot a round for all of 8th edition.  They cost too much for too little guaranteed output.  The Kans are too slow and can't bring enough dakka for their points and slightly better BS.  Plus there are weapons that negate their entire armor save which makes them practically useless.

I didn't bring Kustom Mega Kannons to the game because I thought there would be more line of sight blocking terrain.

I think the warbuggies should have been brought in for a 9.1" charge on the command squad or the special weapons squad on the other side of the map. With 'Ere We Go, they actually have a decent chance of making it in, and a Warbuggy is basically a heavy cavalry unit (though with somewhat lackluster damage output). The damage profile looks suspiciously like two Boyz standing on top of each other in a trenchcoat riding a unicycle, and that's basically how they should operate, going charging into dudes in the back and causing disruptions.

I wasn't sure where the buggies could fit on the board.  They couldn't come in behind his lines and the Sentinals and Ratlings made it tough to fit in on the sides of the board.  In the last game I should have held them out during deployment and in this game I should have had them on the field to move up and fire.  Live and learn.

The Ork strategy was a bold one and could well have paid off, but I too was left wondering about the size of some of those units on a Cities of Death field.  Perhaps sending in the same number of Boyz, but divided up into three mobs, rather than two, would have made a difference?  I can't say with confidence that it would, given that I no longer play, but it seems to me that it might have been feasible.

Having never played cities of death before using smaller units never occurred to me.  Of course, smaller units of Orks is not an orky thing to do.  ;)

I did have some other thoughts during the days after the game.  One, I looked back on a lot of our battles and there is rarely any large, central line of sight blocking terrain.  There is nothing that forces the Guard to move after deployment for better positioning.  They mostly sit back, shoot and not have to worry about moving their main force after deployment.  Even in our game between the Orks and Tau at the start of 8th edition there was a wide open space in the middle of the map.  Great for the Tau, bad for the Orks.  I don't think this is a conscious thing, I looked at games between myself and Uncle Tungsten and we seemed to do it too in 3 out of our 4 games.  The fields of battle are very thematic and look cool but I think this is a bit of an issue.  There's no tactical movement and it makes having to run across open terrain into Chainsaw Heidi and three uses of First Rank, Second Rank to get into assault (other than with Da' Jump) not very fun.

We discussed that some of that is the current meta where shooting is king and falling back out of combat is awesome for the guard.  So even while a jumped unit can kill one or two groups of guardsmen the other 3 or 4 just shoot them to death at close range.  Fingers crossed the Orks get stratagems to either hold units in close combat or get to attack units falling back from close combat to help them defend against shooting.

Two, I also think that the rules for Cities of Death about adding movement when moving on the streets should have meant there were less obstacles on the streets.  It encourages players to risk moving in the street for better positioning.  It didn't matter much for you, you barely moved, but even when my units were in the streets there was always some sort of obstacle meaning I couldn't take advantage of the rule.  It's a minor thing but if the rule was there then it should be able to be taken advantage of more easily.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2018, 01:40:21 PM »
Well, a couple things about that:

1) The "barely moved" accusation is hardly fair, given that I am playing against Orks and, therefore, there is literally *zero impetus* to move my units closer to yours. Even with that caveat, I assaulted your units on several occasions and had units claiming objectives in your own deployment zone. What you are complaining about then is that I did not move towards you which is something nobody who is playing the orks is ever going to do unless they can beat you in close combat. That I sat back and shot you is not a valid complaint--it is literally the only way to play against you. And even then, I covered every bit as much board space as you did.

2) I'm happy to set up LOS blocking terrain in the center of the board. I have not done so since the last time I did this, which was the first time you used the orks against the guard. LOS blocking terrain *also* blocks movement, which makes it much harder for you to get into assault (the vertical movement of climbing up and over the thing blocking the movement). In the game in question (here's the report to refresh your memory) you also complained rather forcefully about the use of that particular terrain. So, I generally don't do it. I will happily change, but take care not to complain about it when I beat you then, too.  ;)

You made the right play at the start of this game--you came at me strong and very nearly pulled it off. I think you moved your mobs sort of the wrong direction (you should have moved diagonally towards my center rather than orthagonally towards my flank--shorter distance towards more targets) and you should have started with the buggies on the board, but beyond that I think you did fine. If the dice had gone a slightly different direction, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

As for the Tankbustas, having run the numbers on the unit, I think 6 wounds is *actually* the statistical average output, even with Dakka Dakka.

Observe:

10 shots = ~3 hits. Re-roll 7 = ~2-3 hits.
Assume 6 hits total (average range of 5-7 with Dakka Dakka).
3 wound.
3 Saves at a 5+ = 2 wounding hits.
6 wounds.

That you score better than that consistently is part of your freakish dice luck more than the tankbustas choking, actually. Turns out they did just about exactly what they should have.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2018, 03:03:28 PM »
1.) I'll give you that, you have no reason to move towards me with your main force and yes, you did move to assault my units when they were close enough.  It's a horde shooting army vs. a horde assault army issue.  It's demoralizing to be obliterated in 3 matches.

2.) I honestly don't remember that battle very well.  It being one of my first games, what did I know or understand about the game?  I'm still a noob compared to you.  Of course, thinking about it, even with LOS blocking terrain, I still have to come towards you to fight you, so there's still no reason for you to move towards me to shoot at me until I'm out in the open.  Seems like I'm stuck between a lasgun and a Punisher.  ;)

I think I tried to move diagonally towards you, I just couldn't get your troops in range of my shootas, which is why I went toward the Sentinel with my assault in the first round.  Unless you mean the second blob of boys.  Yeah, you're probably right there.  And yeah, the buggies should have been on the field.  I still had fun, the first turn was great.  But once you took out 60 boyz, the rest was just mop up for the guard.

Thanks for schooling me on the mathhammer too.  :P  I'll blame the fact that it was only 10 tankbustas instead of 12.  They're used to riding in a trukk and shooting rokkits in style.  :D

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2018, 03:57:04 PM »
Do Orks not have any access to any deep striking units or equivalent?  I remember that Komandos used to be handy for outflanking manoeuvres against gunlines, but I seem to remember reading that they no longer exist.  Are there no alternatives?  If there were something, surely that would be useful to disrupt Imperial Guard shooting.

Regarding the Lootas, I'm not sure that they are doing much for you either.  Against Imperial Guard, you've got no hope of outshooting them, so your best bet is to swamp them with too many targets and to go forward with as many units as possible as quickly as possible.  More Buggy variants might be handy.  Things like Scorchers or Wartrakks, if they still exist, for example, may also provide more useful firepower on the move than Killa Kans.
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Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2018, 04:46:44 PM »
Thanks for the input Irisado.  Kommandos still exist in 8th edition.   They have "deep strike" rules, so they could come in after movement too.  I haven't used them much since Wyddr is great at denying areas to deep strike.  That and they are almost always sold out on GW's website.

Another option, Deffkoptas, don't get to scout anymore.  They are regulated to deep striking within 9" from a board side and cost way too much since they are forced to carry bombs.

The lootas were a thought not for dakka, but as possible anti-armor.  I mistakenly put them too far back to threaten Wyddr's armor.

Well, Kanz were a suggestion as something by Wyddr that his troops would have trouble handling.  Which is true, if he didn't have multiple other options for anti-armor that can eat right through them.  ;)

I'm going to have to go back to the drawing board, start from scratch and see what else I can come up with.

Offline Irisado

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2018, 06:42:18 PM »
If Kommandos still exist, it might be worth giving them a shot.  I know that Wyddr is very good at defending his lines, but, if nothing else, it would give him something else to think about.  It may be worth discussing options, such as Kommandos, in the Ork board to see if anyone with much more recent experience than me can offer any suggestions.

Remember, no matter how difficult things may seem, you're learning with every game, and you've been close to victory on quite a few occasions in these games that you have lost.  As a result, I would say that there's no need to radically alter your army, it just needs a bit of tinkering with at the edges.  Also, you're doing much better than I ever did.  When I used to play Orks back in second edition, I lost every single game by a country mile.

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Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2018, 10:06:33 PM »
I will second Irisado--you're doing pretty well, so don't beat yourself up too much. The current Astra Militarum just has a huge power advantage over the Orks right now and I don't think GW is even aware of it (as evidenced by the fact that my army was 25 power levels lower than yours!).

My personal advice would be to try more, smaller units. 6 units of 15 boyz and then go for the brigade (or even just a double Battalion) to get more CP. What is killing you more than anything else is morale--once I kill more than 15 boyz, your units evaporate and you can only spend CP to prevent that from happening once. With more units, you don't care as much if they get wiped, since you still have plenty more. And 15 boyz is more than enough to krump Guard infantry in assault.

Take more than one Warboss, keep them close to your units, and that will keep those units in the fight even if I don't kill them all. Then just mob the remnants up with the second wave if the first wave doesn't make it.

Likewise, splitting units up into smaller segments plays merry hell with target priority and makes it harder for a shooting army to prioritize. I really think 30 boy mobz are more a liability than an advantage, particularly in this game. You presented me with only 3 major targets (easy priority, easy to divvy up shooting), you were never able to really take advantage of cover, and your movement phase got really tangled thanks to the size of those unwieldy mobz. More, smaller groups would probably work pretty well.   

Oh, and the numbers for 12 Tankbustas, if you're curious:
12 shots = 4 initial hits + ~3 re-rolled hits + 3 additional Dakka Dakka shots (which means +1 hit) = approx. 8 hits total

8 hits = 4 wounds = ~1 save = an average of 9 wounds.

Moral of this story? Never take less than 12.

(15 works out to a more reliable 9 wounds, but not quite 12)
« Last Edit: August 28, 2018, 10:11:37 PM by Wyddr »

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2018, 11:55:48 AM »
That 25 power level difference was a shocker.  :o  You definitely didn't need those 2 extra command points.

Thank you for the suggestions.  It's sometimes hard to pull back and see other options, especially when something works against other armies.

I would like to get more non-campaign games in, there's less pressure to win/perform well/bring the best list.  I've only played about a baker's dozen games of 8th edition so far and still want to try out more units.  Of course, in about a month (finger's crossed) I'll have to forget some of those things since I'll finally have a codex.

Haha, good to know about the dozen Tankbustas.  Especially since that number fits so well in a Trukk.  Of course, there's a rumor flouting around that Dakka, Dakka, Dakka may become an army wide rule for Orks instead of just a stratagem.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2018, 01:21:20 PM »
Haha, good to know about the dozen Tankbustas.  Especially since that number fits so well in a Trukk.  Of course, there's a rumor flouting around that Dakka, Dakka, Dakka may become an army wide rule for Orks instead of just a stratagem.

According to the rumors I've seen, it looks like it'll be an army-wide rule for Goffs in combat, not shooting. Bad Moons might be re-rolling 1s in shooting, though.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2018, 09:10:24 AM »
Looks like my rumor is turning out to be true.  Plus ork shooting will always hit on 6 regardless of modifiers.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2018, 09:24:45 AM »
Looks like my rumor is turning out to be true.  Plus ork shooting will always hit on 6 regardless of modifiers.

I stand corrected!

That will be a nice boost for them. Not too overpowered, but very fun.

Offline Roboknee77

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2018, 10:57:17 AM »
I think your rumors will be true too, they're the same ones I've heard.

I agree.  It's fluffy, not too overpowered, and addresses issues of two or more -1 to hit modifiers completely negating Ork shooting.  That hasn't come into play with us but apparently is a thing in competitive circles.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2018, 11:15:03 AM »
I think your rumors will be true too, they're the same ones I've heard.

I agree.  It's fluffy, not too overpowered, and addresses issues of two or more -1 to hit modifiers completely negating Ork shooting.  That hasn't come into play with us but apparently is a thing in competitive circles.

Yeah--it *could* come up against the Guard, but only if your guys advanced and then shot at something that an Astropath had blessed to give enemies a -1 to hit. Pretty rare. 

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Re: 1500 Orks Vs Vostroyan AM--Cities of Death Firesweep
« Reply #17 on: September 1, 2018, 09:31:46 AM »
October isn't far away, buddy.  :)

I can only echo what others have already said: a couple smaller units of boyz, 10 to 15, might be worth trying.  There seemed to only be one big wave here, and after it was countered, there wasn't much left.  Maybe split one of those 30 man squads into 3 units of 10 and see how it goes? The more an opponent has to split fire, the more decisions to make, and the more possibility for error or the dice going in your favor.

At any rate, kudos for going all in like that right out the gate. Risky and gutsy. 

Thanks for the bat rep, Wyddr. Never get tired of reading them.

 


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