Topic: First experiences of 8th - CWE vs Grey Knights 2500

[SeekingOne]

So, one of my first games of 8th was vs Grey Knights - and it was an educative one, so I thought I'd share it here.

It was Matched play, 2500 pts, mission "No Mercy" (standard kill points).
Lists were roughly like this:

CWE (outrider detachment)
---
Avatar of Khaine
Farseer Skyrunner (Doom, Fortune)
Warlock Skyrunner (Conceal)

9 Windriders w/shuricannons
3 x 5 Warp Spiders w/exarchs

10 Guardian Defenders
2 x 5 Fire Dragons w/exarchs
5 Dark Reapers w/exarch
3 Wave Serpents w/ all shuricannons

2 Crimson Hunters

Grey Knights (vanguard detachment ?)
-------------
Kaldor Draigo
GM Voldus

2 x 5 GK Terminators each w/1 psycannon
5 Paladins w/2 psycannons
2 x Venerable Dreadnoughts each w/2 twin autocannons
2 x Dreadknights each w/heavy incinerator & heavy psycannon & teleporter
Storm Raven w/twin las, twin m-melta and hurricane bolters

We got Hammer&Anvil deployment map (short table edges). The terrain was several ruins and several steep hills scattered evenly all over the field.

I deployed my Avatar centre-forward, flanked by 2 WS (the one on the right carried Dragons and the left one carried Guardians) and 3rd WS was close behind him (it carried Dragons and Reapers). Crimson Hunters went on far flanks, bikes accompanied by Farseer and Warlock hid behind a big hill on the left, 2 quads of Spiders positioned in a big ruin to the right of the Avatar, the third among WSs at the Avartar's feet. Al in all, deployment zone is narrow and space feels a little crowded.

GK deployed 1 dreadnought in the centre, the other one on a hill on the left (looking from my side), Raven in the centre with 5 termies inside, Voldus also dead in the centre and on the edge of his deployment zone, behind some obstacle. All the rest was in deep strike.

With my opponent having 10 units to my 16, even though 4 of my units went inside transports he still was guaranteed to go first, which he did. Seize attempt was unsuccessful.

Turn 1
GK:
Storm Raven flies full 45", going straight for my Crimson Hunter on the right flank, and stops a few inches short of its nose. Voldus advances up the centre, dreads stay put. Paladins, Draigo and 2 DKs materialise on my right flank right next to Storm Raven. The other squad of basic termies appear on my left flank close to bikes.
In psy-phase bolts of psychic energy flash all over the place, some of which I stop and others don't, so a few mortal wounds are inflicted here and there.
In shooting phase GK, bolstered by Draigo who gives everyone around him rerolls to hit, pretty much destroy my right flank. Raven uses twin las and twin melta to kill my jet, then combined fire from Raven's hurricane bolters, Draigo, paladins, DKs and one dread kill 2 units of Spiders in the ruin (despite them being in cover and at -1  to hit for Flickerjump) and reduce right-hand WS to the last 3 wounds or so. On the left flank combined fire of the other dread and termies knocks 4 wounds off my other jet and kills a bike or two.

Eldar:
Reapers disembark from the central WS and take position in a small ruin near the table edge. Dragons disembark and move towards Raven, the other Dragon squad disembarks from the crippled WS and moves towards the nearest DK. Guardians disembark from the left-side WS and move towards termies on the left flank. WSs move to the left in attempt to get further away from DKs, Avatar advances towards the right flank and stops between 2 Dragon squads. Remaining Crimson Hunter moves 20" forward along the left flank, to be in range of both termies and dread on a hill. Remaining Spiders also jump towards the left-side termies.
In psy-phase I Doom Raven, Fortune and Conceal bikes.
1st Dragons shoot the Raven but fail to destroy it (4+ yields only 2 hits), so I use Reapers to finish it off. Termies inside lose 1 model and disembark towards my Avatar. 2nd Dragons shoot a DK but fail completely, hitting just twice and failing to wound. Bikes and WSs shoot the same DK, causing only 5 wounds. On the left Farseer, warlock, 10 guardians and 5 spiders shoot termies and only kill 2 models. Jetfighter splits fire, shooting pulse laser at termies (killing 1 more) and lances at dread, causing 4 wounds.

Turn 2
GK:
On my right, GK units push after the retreating Eldar towards the centre line of the field and deeper into my DZ. Voldus once again moves forward.
Both dreads shoot my jetfighter, reducing it to 4 wounds. The right-side group of GK units led by Draigo uses a combination of multiple Smites, shooting and a couple of assaults to kill 1 squad of dragons, finish the crippled WS and cripple the other one.
4-strong unit of termies charges the Avatar (totally taking me by surprise) and promptly reduces him to 3 wounds, after which the Avatar retaliates killing 2 of them. In the centre Voldus rolls a cheeky double 6s for assault and smashes straight into my last undamaged WS, crippling it instantly with his crazy thunderhammer. On the left two remaining termies seem to have their mental focus crushed completely by the alien mind of the nearby Farseer: they shoot Spiders but do nothing, then assault them, one termie dying to overwatch and the other one still doing nothing but losing a wound to a quick thrust of an aeldari blade.

Eldar:
Crippled WSs vainly try to limp away from immediate danger, Spiders fall back from combat, damaged jet flies towards dreads. I Doom the wounded DK, defensive buffs fail.
Shooting from all bikes and Reapers proves just barely enough to finish the wounded DK, remaining Dragons kill 2-3 paladins, Guardians and WSs knock about 3 wounds off Voldus. Jet shoots the wounded dread but only hits once and causes 2 wounds. Despite having suffered 6 wounds in total, dread is unaffected. Two seers finally finish the last termie on the left with their twin shuricats. Avatar kills two remaining termies in melee.

Turns 3-5
In turn 3 GKs in my DZ keep pushing from right to left, finishing both WSs (with help of Voldus), finishing Avatar, killing Dragons and reducing Reapers to 2 models.
In the course of the following turns Voldus tries to take out Guardians but dies in the process, while dreads finish my flyer and then promptly wipe out Guardians. In the end GK tried to shoot my bikes but didn't do much due to combination of Fortune and Conceal.
All Eldar managed to do, in addition to killing Voldus, was finishing off paladins and putting a wound or two on Draigo.

The game ended on turn 5. All I had left was 2 psykers, bikes (reduced to ~5 models) and a squad of Spiders. GK had Draigo, one DK and 2 dreads still fully operational.

GK won a total victory with like 12 kill points plus First blood plus Linebreaker to my 6 kill points.


Closing Thoughts:
As you could see, I effectively lost to a single savage 1st turn alpha-strike, which I never recovered from. Admittedly, there seems to be a lot of things that I could do better. BTW - I'd be happy to hear from you people what would you do differently in my place!
That said, despite Eldar outnumbering GK almost 2 to 1, I felt totally outclassed in both damage output and durability. For those who remember - it felt very similar to fighting GK in 5th edition.

Initial impressions of the 8th edition mechanics in general:
1) The game really runs quicker and smoother now, and thank God for throwing out the insanity of 7th edition psychic phase.
2) Advanced rules for terrain are good, simple and concise. BTW, we noticed that "impassable terrain" is gone as a concept, it's all hills and ruins now (and I love it).
3) Smite seems to be extremely good, especially if you can throw it multiple times.
4) Morale seems absolutely insignificant and inconsequential.
5) Advantage of first turn has become huge. Unlike it was in the few previous editions, with this system of deploying units one by one, even if you know you're going second you still can do very little to reduce the effect of your opponent's first strike. Reserves arriving on turn 1 and flying transports with 45" move make this effect even stronger. The GK army I faced in this game makes a good example of such situation: it has a potential to deal some heavy damage on turn 1, AND with such small number of units it's all but guaranteed to go first. This makes facing such an army an uncomfortable prospect.
6) Close combat feels strange and would take a lot of getting used to.
7) Vehicles and monsters are tough but far from invincible. They are hard to destroy completely but easy to cripple. 8-wound vehicles/MCs are crazy good in that regard because they don't degrade,  and seem to perform better than 10-wound and even 12-wound ones (which is kind of weird).

Thanks for reading! Any constructive comments are greatly appreciated.

[Lord of Winter and War]

Thanks for the coverage of the game. Grey Knights are no joke anymore (like they have been since 5th ed).

When you have more units then your opponent, you have to plan to go second. I wouldn't even bothering trying to seize. Make a turn 2 plan.

In this case, he had a lot of deepstriking units. Best thing to do about this, is spread your force out, so that there are no 9" bubbles for him to squeeze into. using the transports is great for this.

Grey Knights also have a really short range, so I would deploy further back from the deployment line. Hammer and Anvil is a tough deployment against assault armies, as there is really nowhere to go.

Probably what I'd do is deploy the guardians up along the width of the table (expecting to die Turn 1, and then keep everything well behind and spread out to prevent any deepstrikes in your backfield. Ideally, he will only be able to deepstrike in front of the guardians, overkill them and then you can counter attacks once he's committed.

I'd probably try to fit in a second 10 mam squad of guardians, or dire avengers, just to help with area denial and screening.

1) The game really runs quicker and smoother now, and thank God for throwing out the insanity of 7th edition psychic phase.

Bak bak. 100% agree

2) Advanced rules for terrain are good, simple and concise. BTW, we noticed that "impassable terrain" is gone as a concept, it's all hills and ruins now (and I love it).

I also like how only infantry can move through ruin walls and ruin floors. No more bikes driving through solid walls.

3) Smite seems to be extremely good, especially if you can throw it multiple times

.

Agreed, but at least the grey knights have a weaker version which is one 1 and not D3 mortal wounds.

Also, smite has to target the closest unit, so it's easy for force him to target chaff.

4) Morale seems absolutely insignificant and inconsequential.

I disagree. Since morale is from all casualties during the turn, it can be a big deal. Loose 3 guys in the shooting phase and 1 in the assault phase and you're -3 LD for the test. I find the only time Morale is not an issue is when fighting Necrons, as they are (I think) the only faction with LD10 across the board. You need to kill at least 5 models in a turn, before they have a chance to flee.

5) Advantage of first turn has become huge. Unlike it was in the few previous editions, with this system of deploying units one by one, even if you know you're going second you still can do very little to reduce the effect of your opponent's first strike. Reserves arriving on turn 1 and flying transports with 45" move make this effect even stronger. The GK army I faced in this game makes a good example of such situation: it has a potential to deal some heavy damage on turn 1, AND with such small number of units it's all but guaranteed to go first. This makes facing such an army an uncomfortable prospect.

When building your army, you almost need to plan for first or second turn. It'll be a learning curve, but this is where area denial is going to be huge, as well as careful deployment.

6) Close combat feels strange and would take a lot of getting used to.

Agreed. Charging is massive as well. Any unit charging is amazing.

7) Vehicles and monsters are tough but far from invincible. They are hard to destroy completely but easy to cripple. 8-wound vehicles/MCs are crazy good in that regard because they don't degrade,  and seem to perform better than 10-wound and even 12-wound ones (which is kind of weird).

Yeah, they are way harder to kill, but way easier to damage. Normal dreads (8 wounds) I think are way better then custodies dreads (10 wounds) for this very reason.



How was your experience using Command Points?

[Saim-Dann]

G'day SeekingOne!
Great report, mate. Thank you so much for the effort. The game, however, is worrying. It reads to me that the only great tactic to the game is designing your army to go first and have non-degrading vehicles/MC's.

Whomever does this right on the day wins. I'm looking for a lot more strategy in the game itself, so I hope I'm wrong. Looks like fortune and conceal are a good combo, as is guide and doom. Am so looking forward to receiving my books. Thank you for giving us a heads up. The more you guys do these reports, the less trial and error we have to do... Be well, SeekingOne! 

[Fenris]

Nice report I think you did well with the lists you had, lots of s6 are worse against T4, which don't suit this match up.

I think Khaine looks a little out of place with no CC unit around.
How did the windriders feel, could you have done the same with twin catapults considering range?

For going second I think more cheap units may be good, just to block most of the attack vectors, or at least catch them in a crossfire, when they do attack. Guardians 18" apart can do this quite well.

[magenb]

We have to really think about transports now, the low volume of fire they provide at the points cost is a strange thing to get used to. Fire dragon need the transports, so yeah drop 1 wave and use the points, however if you know you are facing an army that is going to get in your face, poping them in cover that can't be flanked is also a good option to free up points.

Fenris's plan to spread out and deny deep strike options is good and tends to leave them out in the open, very important against Marines as their save is just insane now.

Take CC unit(s), very important for removing troops now, given the list I'm not sure if I would have taken Wraithguards or spears.

S6 is in a weird place now, most S4 weapons will have the same chance to wound T7 stuff. Honestly I think Warp spider will be benched with a re-evaluation once we get a codex.

Drop the crimson hunters, their low volume of fire just makes them meh for the points. Swap them for more reapers and sit them in cover which is difficult to flank, use a small guardian squad if you have to block access. Against a Deep striking army, you can move them to the rear, so they can't get rapid fire shots on them.


Hindsight is 20/20 and we don't always know what we are going to face off against even if we know the army.

[SeekingOne]

Thanks for suggestions people, they are really useful!

@KillerSquid

How was your experience using Command Points?

There was none we both completely forgot about them.

@Fenris

How did the windriders feel, could you have done the same with twin catapults considering range?

They feel overpriced, and their damage output was meh. BUT even in 7th, if I happened to face such a mass of 2W-3W models in 2+ armour, damage output of Windriders would've been crap. So, in fact, it's a bad matchup for them.

Twin catapults would've been bad still - most of the time my bikes still fired at units over 12" away. Besides, as I just mentioned in another thread, statistically damage output of a pair of shuricats is now almost exactly the same as that of a single shuricannon (or a single scatter laser for that matter, provided the scatter doesn't move and hits on 3+). So, upgrading a bike to a shuricannon effectively means just upgrading its range from 12" to 24". And since this upgrade effectively costs just +2 pts per model, it's an auto-include.


@magenb

We have to really think about transports now, the low volume of fire they provide at the points cost is a strange thing to get used to.

It's interesting that you mention it now... This is something that I've been talking about literally for years, back in the days of 4th and 5th edition - but the typical answer I always got was that Serpents are the best transports in the game, and this is unquestionable, and so I just need to shut up and learn how to use them right, lol. But there always (well, except 6th edition codex) was a big issue with Serpents: regardless of how good they were, their cost was just too high for their primary job, that is of carrying Eldar infantry around. To put it simply, most Eldar foot units are just not good enough to pay so much for their delivery. I always liked to compare a WS to a Ferrari - there's no doubt that Ferrari is a great car, and it's probably even worth every penny of its huge price - but it doesn't change the fact that an average working man just doesn't earn enough to afford a Ferrari to drive him to work and back home every day.

That said, now Serpents seem more durable than ever before, AND their firepower has increased substantially due to twin weapons on the turret, and so, with my fingers crossed, I'm hoping that in this edition they finally prove worthwhile. So far, their performance feels pretty decent to me, but it's way too early to draw final conclusions.

Fire dragon need the transports, so yeah drop 1 wave and use the points, however if you know you are facing an army that is going to get in your face, poping them in cover that can't be flanked is also a good option to free up points.

Could you elaborate on what you mean by "flanking"?

Take CC unit(s), very important for removing troops now, given the list I'm not sure if I would have taken Wraithguards or spears.

Wraitguard with swords look pretty good for their cost on paper. Spears... no so much. Most importatntly, WG can hide in a WS or at least hug terrain for 2+ save, while Spears can do neither and are hard to hide from LoS completely - and thus, assuming I go second, would be helpless vs the turn 1 alpha-strike. And they feel too expensive to lose them like that.

S6 is in a weird place now, most S4 weapons will have the same chance to wound T7 stuff. Honestly I think Warp spider will be benched with a re-evaluation once we get a codex.

Sad, but true. Their rules are still quite good in fact, but due to losing their capability to jump away, after shooting anything they remain stuck within 12" from the enemy, and thus, even with Flickerjump, their life expectancy is just too short. And for a unit with such short life expectancy they are insanely overpriced. Their proper cost would be about 17-18 points max.

Drop the crimson hunters, their low volume of fire just makes them meh for the points. Swap them for more reapers and sit them in cover which is difficult to flank, use a small guardian squad if you have to block access. Against a Deep striking army, you can move them to the rear, so they can't get rapid fire shots on them.

Disagree about Hunters, they are effectively our only unit that can move about and still hit on 3+ with heavy anti-tank weaponry. That said, Reapers now do seem our best AT hands down.