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Author Topic: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline  (Read 4242 times)

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Offline Alienscar

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Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« on: January 30, 2017, 10:14:20 AM »
Yesterday I emailed Purple Raine suggesting that it was time to reconsider the way copyright moderating is handled on 40konline. Unfortunately I didn't keep a copy of the email so can't simply post that here.

The gist of my email was based on the antics of Frontline Gaming and how they openly discuss the rules of 40k.

Nothing new in other sites allowing Games Workshop's rules and images to be posted whilst this one doesn't but I pointed out to Raine that there is a subtle difference when it comes to Frontline.

Reece Robbins, who I believe is a founding member of Frontline, has now had three articles published on the Warhammer Community. Not only that but Games Workshop is off to the LVO this year which I believe Frontline has some involvement in.

I put all of this together and suggested to Raine that this comes across as GW condoning/allowing the actions of Frontline's website.

Food for thought don't you think?
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2017, 10:26:11 AM »
If Raine wants to make a change to policy/rules, I'm sure that he'll let us know :)
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2017, 10:48:09 AM »
I agree. The moderation policy here is antiquated in comparison to literally every other site.


If Raine wants to make a change to policy/rules, I'm sure that he'll let us know :).

Since he shows up once every ten years or so, I doubt it.
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2017, 10:56:20 AM »
That is why I emailed him directly.

I always think that when I see a hidden member online that it is probably Raine.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 10:57:55 AM by Alienscar »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2017, 12:50:23 PM »
Since he shows up once every ten years or so, I doubt it.

He appears more frequently than that.

I always think that when I see a hidden member online that it is probably Raine.

It isn't Raine :).
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2017, 01:40:49 PM »
Since he shows up once every ten years or so, I doubt it.

He appears more frequently than that.

So, when was the last time he posted in public boards?

You think he's around often enough to be the sole decider on forum policy?

The copyright policy here is old fashioned and heavy handed. There is no positive aspect to it, unless you want to push people away from the site.

Literally no other forum or website for 40k has this policy and nothing has happened. Front line gaming was even asked to write articles for gw, and they post copyright material daily.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:45:17 PM by Killersquid »
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2017, 01:45:55 PM »
You think he's around often enough to be the sole decider on forum policy?

Being that he owns the place, yeah.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2017, 01:54:07 PM »
So, when was the last time he posted in public boards?

That's moving the goal posts from the original point you were making ;).

Quote
You think he's around often enough to be the sole decider on forum policy?

As the owner, yes.  His word is final, especially on a legal matter.  He's the person in the line of fire should GW legal come calling, as they did in the past.

Quote
The copyright policy here is old fashioned and heavy handed. There is no positive aspect to it, unless you want to push people away from the site.

The positive effect has been that the site has not been shut down, and it went on to grow massively after being reconstructed and renamed following the legal issues.  Had all of that not happened, there would be no site, and we would all not be discussing this hobby here.

Quote
Literally no other forum or website for 40k has this policy and nothing has happened. Front line gaming was even asked to write articles for gw, and they post copyright material daily.

GW shut down websites and forums in the past, and in more recent times, some blog sites have been taken down and only re-emerged following discussions with GW.

As for Frontline Gaming, I'm not interested in what they can/cannot do.  I'm interested in protecting this site from any possible legal action.  If Raine wishes to change the policy, that's his right as the owner and a matter for him.  It is, however, not for the rest of us to pass harsh judgement on it when the only reason the copyright rules are in place are to protect the site, so that we can all keep enjoying posting here.  The rules are not there to discourage posting, they are there to protect the site.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:55:11 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2017, 01:55:23 PM »
Which sites were shut down? When was this?

Also, what flg can do is important. They are way more public then this site. You think gw would have shut them down already, if that was an issue. Bell of lost souls as well.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 01:56:42 PM by Killersquid »
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Offline Cavalier

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2017, 01:59:10 PM »
I do agree with Killersquid and Alienscar. Times have changed quite a bit and I do think a loosening of the rules to a certain extent wouldn't get us in trouble. Frontline Gaming prints all the rules and point values in their various discussions, reviews, tactica articles on their website on a daily basis... furthermore Reece has flat out stated multiple times they helped GW with the final FAQ. They are on a very friendly basis and Frontline is ultra-keen on keeping things that way. I'm sure they wouldn't jeopardize that with printing the rules in their various articles if GW actually cared.

I hope the super-mods do reconsider... I think it'd help maintain forum attendance and keep the interaction going. It makes certain discussions very difficult, especially when it pertains to rules, codex and army list analysis.

Not the end of the world or anything, especially for those of us very familiar with the rules of the forum (its funny how programmed the self censorship has become for me over the years  ;D ) But I do think it'd help the conversations flow in certain areas especially those that pertain to rules. I'm sure for people joining the forum from social media world, or who are used to the comments sections of the popular websites, the rules on discussing stats and stuff must seem incredibly inflexible here on the forum. Things were a lot different in the early 2000's so I do hope the high-ups reconsider.

I do understand where they were coming from originally though. But times have changed to a certain degree.  Loosening the rules just a bit wouldn't hurt I'm sure
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 02:01:50 PM by Cavalier »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2017, 02:02:21 PM »
Which sites were shut down? When was this?

Also, what flg can do is important. They are way more public then this site. You think gw would have shut them down already, if that was an issue. Bell of lost souls as well.

Recently, it was the Faeit Rumour site or whatever it was called before and after.  It was taken down for a period of time as a result of falling foul of GW legal.  Previously, you had Landraider.com and Vassal, to give two better known examples.

Vassal, admittedly, was an extreme case, but is still an example of what can happen if someone just says 'let's forget about copyright'.  It's very easy to start down a slippery slope.

I still fail to see why Frontlinegaming matters.  They do what they do, we do what we do.  What's the connection?

I hope the super-mods do reconsider... I think it'd help maintain forum attendance and keep the interaction going. It makes certain discussions very difficult, especially when it pertains to rules, codex and army list analysis.

It's up to Raine not to the Globals, so there's nothing for us to reconsider.  He decides legal policy, not us.

How does it make those discussions difficult?  I've got through over 10,000 posts without a single copyright infraction for almost nine years on this forum, and I've analysed and reviewed so many army lists during that time period I couldn't possibly count them all.

As for rules.  Quoting rules has always been permitted in the rules board when the rule is being subject to debate (i.e. who is right/wrong about a rule).  What has never been allowed is explaining how rules work to those who don't have the codex, as that's breaching copyright.



Also, I'm going to remind all of you about this sticky topic and the replies to it.

Finally, the idea that copyright rules have led to less activity over the years is not the case.  The copyright rules have been the same for years.  They go all the way back to the early days of the forum and site, and as a cursory glance at the forum stats shows, activity was massive back then, and that was with the same forum rules as we have now on copyright.

« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 02:08:19 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2017, 02:14:04 PM »
Vassal is not the same as posting on an online fourm.

Faeit / naftka still posts rumours and page scans on an almost daily basis, as they have been doing for years.

That post you linked to is 6 years old. I doubt that is relevant anymore.

Activity on this site is almost non existent. Most of the veteran members and moderators don't play, and post predominantly in hidden boards.

You think that when three seperate members of the site express that this is an issue, that the site should try and change things.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2017, 02:36:24 PM »
Vassal is not the same as posting on an online fourm.

Indeed, but ignoring copyright is the same issue.

Quote
Faeit / naftka still posts rumours and page scans on an almost daily basis, as they have been doing for years.

I'm aware of that.  My point was that it was taken down by GW legal for a period of time.  How that was resolved remains unknown, but the key point is that there's no guarantee of getting a site back if it is shut down.

Quote
That post you linked to is 6 years old. I doubt that is relevant anymore.

How is it no longer relevant?

Quote
Activity on this site is almost non existent.

There are still posts being made on a daily basis, which is more than can be said for some forums.

Quote
Most of the veteran members and moderators don't play, and post predominantly in hidden boards.

Changing the rules of the forum isn't going to have any impact on that.

Quote
You think that when three seperate members of the site express that this is an issue, that the site should try and change things.

I repeat, it's Raine's decision.

It is important, however, to point out that the change being proposed is not going to result in the change that is being sought (i.e. an increase in activity).  Unless or until the cycle turns vis à vis social media and forums, the ways to increase activity here are extremely limited.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2017, 02:54:58 PM »
Do what Alienscar already did - email Raine. keithloo @ keithloo .com

The more people he hears from the more likely he'll be to see the messages and approve the changes. He's the landlord. Merely that we haven't heard from him in a while doesn't mean we suddenly get to knock out a few walls and install an opium den.
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2017, 03:01:16 PM »
That post you linked to is 6 years old. I doubt that is relevant anymore.

It wasn't even relevant six years ago. Being contacted by GW asking that personal details be removed never had anything to do with copyright. It didn't even prove that GW were watching back then as they could just have easily got in touch following a complaint from the person whose details had been posted.

You think that when three seperate members of the site express that this is an issue, that the site should try and change things.

To be honest Killersquid I was just trying to point out to Raine that maybe things could change when it comes to moderating images from White Dwarf and reviewing Codex rules. I don't really see it as much of an issue. If I did I would stop posting.

I still fail to see why Frontlinegaming matters.  They do what they do, we do what we do.  What's the connection?

The only connection is that Frontline Gaming is what I emailed Raine about. The fact that Reecius has written three articles for Warhammer Community and the fact that GW is off to the LVO would, from my point of view, indicate that GW is happy with the way Frontline conducts business.


It is important, however, to point out that the change being proposed is not going to result in the change that is being sought (i.e. an increase in activity).  Unless or until the cycle turns vis à vis social media and forums, the ways to increase activity here are extremely limited.

That depends on your point of view I guess and whether or not a little increase is seen as a benefit.

My reviews of the Imperial Soldier and the Start Collecting! box would have been a lot different if I could have included information on the enclosed Formations.

Do what Alienscar already did - email Raine. keithloo @ keithloo .com 

Just checking GrimSqueaker I emailed Raine by searching for his name in the member list then clicking the email member button. Would this have been the correct email address?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 03:07:39 PM by Alienscar »
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2017, 03:13:03 PM »
Should work, that's the way I found it. You might also be able to find him on Facebook as he's quite the social media butterfly.
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Offline magenb

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2017, 04:05:22 PM »
The blanket rule of no copyright data makes it clear for the forum admins, there is no grey area, no judgement calls need to be made, the rule is abundantly clear for users and staff.

Frankly stop asking someone else to take on the legal risks so you can get access to the material, if you want it that badly go download it yourself and take the risk.



Offline Irisado

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2017, 04:19:49 PM »
It wasn't even relevant six years ago. Being contacted by GW asking that personal details be removed never had anything to do with copyright. It didn't even prove that GW were watching back then as they could just have easily got in touch following a complaint from the person whose details had been posted.

What it demonstrates is that GW legal have conducted us about multiple issues, including copyright, and the policy of the forum has been to take no chances regarding copyright as a result.  This is a legal issue after all, and so compliance with the law is essential.

Quote
The only connection is that Frontline Gaming is what I emailed Raine about. The fact that Reecius has written three articles for Warhammer Community and the fact that GW is off to the LVO would, from my point of view, indicate that GW is happy with the way Frontline conducts business.

Indeed, and I have no concerns about you pointing this out to Raine and asking for his view :).  My question was about the link Killersquid was making in his post, not the one you're referring to.

As Rummy says, it's only Raine who can change this policy, so while we can all discuss it here and give our views, in the end the best way for any of you to communicate your points on the matter is for you to emulate Alienscar and write to him.
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2017, 05:10:26 PM »
I think one thing we are all forgetting is what GW has posted on their page covering their Intellectual Property.

A couple of key things that pertain to this discussion that I pulled from their page:

Quote
  • Copyright. Don’t use material protected by copyright. Please don’t use images from our website, chunks of text lifted from our publications or any of our artwork. We’d encourage you instead to write your own descriptions and maybe even draw your own pictures and maps. Never distribute copies of our publications or other protected material for free.

  • Don’t share unreleased material. We love people talking about our products once they have been announced. Discussing rumours is great too, but leaking material is not. We have the right to first release of our copyrighted material. If you receive any material before we announce it, keep it secret, keep it safe and we’ll tell people about it when we are ready. We would also ask that you report any leaked material to us at infringements@gwplc.com, so that we can identify where this material originated from.
Frankly, my opinion based on those two excerpts is that we should not change our policy.  We follow GW's guidelines to the letter and do not deviate from that.  The one area that we have relaxed our stance on it was when the forum rules were reworked 2 years ago and we added that you can copy a rule verbatim as long as it is properly cited.

I would also add that using the reasoning that "they (other sites) do it, why can't we" is flawed from the beginning.  Millions of people jay-walk, doesn't mean you should do it.  Millions of people speed while driving, doesn't mean you should do it.  Other websites blatantly ignore GW's policies on sharing their IP, doesn't mean we will do it.

And really, what is to be gained by sharing scanned copies of the rules?  Is that added benefit worth the risk of GW Legal contacting Raine with a Cease and Desist?

I think magenb said it best:
The blanket rule of no copyright data makes it clear for the forum admins, there is no grey area, no judgement calls need to be made, the rule is abundantly clear for users and staff.

Frankly stop asking someone else to take on the legal risks so you can get access to the material, if you want it that badly go download it yourself and take the risk.

With how many times this has come up in the past, I've had the same reasoning.  If you make some allowances for violating IP, then you open the door to interpretation.  You can toss out something random like saying a post can only contain 2 scanned images, but then you get people arguing that 3 scanned images isn't that much worse than 2.  If you set the mark at zero, then there is no room for interpretation.  No room for argument. 

All that being said, if Raine does decide to change the policy regarding IP, he will contact the admins / globals to make sure it gets done.  Although, knowing the kind of guy that he is, if he is going to think about making that change I am fairly certain he will ask for input from the staff prior to making the final decision.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2017, 06:00:43 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
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Re: Copyright/IP Infringement Moderation on 40konline
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2017, 11:53:41 PM »
A few things to think about - from someone who is on both sides of intellectual property and copyright enforcement...

1- what others do makes some, but only a tiny bit of difference. If 10 people are breaking the law, does that make it acceptable for you to also break the law?  (Short answer, no, it does not).   I have seen the cops pull over 15 drivers in a row...  and claiming, "well, I was just driving along in traffic, the same speed as everyone else" doesn't excuse you from the ticket.

2- are stat lines and other copyrighted IP really necesarry for a conversation about the game? Again, short answer is no...    this site may have slowed down - but then again, EVERY forum has slowed down in recent years as folks flood social media instead of forums. It goes in cycles, and forums will see a resurgence at some point. However much the site activity may have slowed, though, this site is still here and has been having active and good conversations on the game and gameplay without stat lines for years...   so, no, posting stat lines might be "easier" (read lazy) but it is not necesarry in order to have a good conversation about the game or even specific units.


So, go ahead an email Raine... and I will support his decision, since he is the owner of the site... but I see no reason why the rules should be changed... and no one has yet given any sort of good reason, other than ... I saw another site doing it and I want it...  which is not actually a valid argument.
Solitaire Llama (Also known as the Dali Llama)
WS10 BS10 S5 T5 I1 A1 Sv1+
Spit, Neck Throw, Guardian of the Sheep

 


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