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Author Topic: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?  (Read 17895 times)

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Offline Radec

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #20 on: July 6, 2015, 04:07:36 PM »
 The opinions in my community have been 100% negative. I can safely say that we didn't mind WHFB morphing into a different game. What we didn't like was the actual execution. Nowadays, there are numerous games, which the managers at GW HQ could have taken as an example when telling the design team what they want as a product (because that's how AoS has turned that bad IMO. I just can't believe that the game has turned this way on the design team's will). There's nothing wrong in copying good system mechanics from other games. Alas, AoS doesn't have much to show in this regard. The warscrolls themselves aren't a bad decision - I frequently give Warmachine as an example of a game that I've started playing without reading a single page of core rules. That is because the game in WM is mostly on the cards (as is in AoS's case). The difference between the two games is that WM has good core rules and AoS does not.
 
 Some people have said that it is impossible to write a good ruleset in 4 pages. That may be so, but I strongly suspect that the core of one of the best rule sets I've ever seen (Dropzone Commander) could be fitted in 10 pages, provided that all the images are cut off. IMO lack of rule details in the core rules does not equal a bad game. The important thing is that the details that matter the most, that capture the essence of the game so to speak should be strongly represented ruleswise.
 
 For example, in DzC these details are:
1. Alternating activation of battlegroups, which simulates the movement of larger forces without losing too much of the 'real' time element.
2. The transportation of troops and tanks across the field.
Taking everything else away - unit profiles, objectives, missions etc. the game's essence is about these two things.

My experience in WHFB isn't that ahem extensive compared to 40k for example, but I think that WFB on the other side was about:

1. Regimental movement of the units
2. Charges, multiple assaults, modifiers stacking and routing the enemy at the right moment.

AoS' core rule set doesn't retain any of the above cornerstones and doesn't introduce anything new or interesting by itself. Here's a list of the things it offers instead, for example:

1. Random player sequence each turn.
2. Random spell casting with random dispelling (ok, the dispel range is 18" which is relatively short compared to most spells' ranges).
3. Lobotomized magic section. 2 basic spells + unit specific spell. I can see the KoW parallel here.
4. VERY BAD cover system.
5. Shooting in and out of combat without any penalty. Other systems may do that aswell, but there's always a big deterrent.
6. Rules presented in a non-precise manner.

 I'm not even commenting the missing mechanic for army organization or the new "social rules" (they're not that numerous in fact. We all know that we can turn a blind eye on them if we don't like that sort of thing hence I don't consider them a strictly bad decision). The above are bad enough by themselves.

 All in all, this whole ordeal may have spelled the end of my community's support for GW when it comes to medieval fantasy related games. We just had a year with a good, steady surge of fresh people into the hobby and I can only imagine their frustration with the next iteration of their new pass time game.
There were many people which were getting ready to pre-order the new box and some other stuff, both to fill gaps in old armies and to build new ones. They all cancelled their orders to a man. This release has been a huge disappointment and I really don't want to think that something similar may be coming for 40k. I just can't shake the feeling though...

 A lot of people here (including me) are VERY disappointed in GW. We're not angry because we've got other alternatives and it wasn't our only option so to speak. There are other games we play now, beside GW's WH and FB. This was supposed to be a big release (they certainly didn't announce that it would be a simple rules-light game) and right now it speaks very bad about how they intend to manage their games. It could have shown that they were willing and could produce a sound new, modern game, from scratch.
  I've always considered myself more or less a GW fanboy, but from now on I'm starting to vote with my wallet and it will be saying 'NO' until I see a rulebook release (40k and FB) that I like on par with my other systems.
« Last Edit: July 7, 2015, 09:16:14 AM by Radec »

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #21 on: July 7, 2015, 08:22:38 PM »
Simplicity is good, but pick-up style games don't usually cost... oh... $1,500.  I have a copies of both of Pirates! and Zombies!!! in my trunkj.  Those cost about $20 each and I can teach any sane person who to play either in the course of ten minutes.  Then, we can bash about some dice and have fun.  Zombies!!! is the best example I know of a pick-up game: place some tiles, role some dice, betray your friends, maybe you'll survive.

The rumors I mentioned may be wrong, there's some GW marketing talk about this being the new face of WHFB.  Maybe this is the game now, yikes.  It's like it was written by people on LSD that don't speak English as a primary language.

I wasn't able to find a reliable source, but someone posted that Andy Chambers stated that the game is meant to be a retort to, as he says, "tourmament-tight" rules.  Yeah, a fun game is going to be fun, a game with lousy, ambiguous rules that require you to do socially inappropriate things in order to get bonuses or avoid penalties is just bad.  It's Calvinball.
« Last Edit: July 7, 2015, 08:25:02 PM by Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) »
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #22 on: July 7, 2015, 08:41:18 PM »
Well, my LGS owner got a game in today and he has already said that all that silly amphetamine parrot isn't necessary for our weekly gaming night.  The biggest issue he had is that there is no method to balancing the game.  The only thing that there is, is the "don't be a douche rule."  And it isn't even a bloody rule.  So really, what is to prevent me from taking my entire Bretonnian collection, which was around 4000pts, and pitting it against a reasonable list brought by my opponent?

At the very least, it does have me going down for a Fantasy night for the first time in years with my own stuff.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #23 on: July 9, 2015, 10:52:38 AM »
Balancing by wound count seems the closest thing to reasonable. But yeah, it isn't exactly a clean, clever system.

My problem is that it seems dull. Assuming I don't play with jerks (I don't), why would I play this over 40K? What is the appeal, exactly? I just don't get it. As Peanut says, if it's going to be as simplistic as a board game, why not save yourself the money?

Offline Radec

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #24 on: July 9, 2015, 11:07:27 AM »
 Balancing by wound count may not work at all. What's to guarantee that two single wound models are even remotely comparable in therms of power and that a 5 wound model would be equal to 5 1 wound models? Certainly this matter has been talked already many times in the context of 40k. This said, balance is not the biggest problem of the game - its core rules are. As I've said above, they're bland, uninspiring, non-innovative and have some serious design flaws. Until the core rules are fixed it won't matter if the game is balanced or not - it will just not be fun to play.

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #25 on: July 9, 2015, 01:45:28 PM »
Tournament-tight rules mean that reasonable people can treat each other well and have a good time.  Reasonable people give the benefit of the doubt and such but you can't force people to not be creepy win-at-any-cost goons.  Putting the golden rule in previous books is a fine idea, but if the entire game is, "don't be a dick," you don't even need a rulebook.  Or a game.  "Greet each other kindly, shake hands, then leave.  If you do this, you won!"

The balance, to me, seems to be that unit stats are almost irrelevant.  Charge everything first turn, roll to hit, roll to wound, usually on the same 4+/4+ rate.  If that unit's profile says they wound on a 4+ that's it... it's like every shooting and melee attack has Poisoned.

But, it's confirmed that the Screaming Bell can be combined with Fateweaver to automatically win the game on turn one.  If I recall correctly, it allows you to auto-win on a 2D6 roll of 13, Dank Beaver allows you to change a value to whatever you please, so roll two dice and go for the epic handshake for your victory.

And circular bases as well as optional ranking.
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Offline Rx8Speed

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #26 on: July 9, 2015, 02:51:40 PM »
Age of Sigmar has to be the single worst table top game right now. I'll stick to 40k and beer pong

In all fairness, AoS was not marketed towards me, nor was I a target for it. Is there any confirmation that warhammer fantasy is dead besides (in our hearts obviously) and that it was removed from the website?


Started reading some warhammer books about a year ago, then started collecting vampire counts. Started playing them a few months ago and having a blast.

Now this happens and THIS is how I feel!
« Last Edit: July 9, 2015, 03:02:30 PM by Rx8Speed »

Offline Radec

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #27 on: July 9, 2015, 03:29:25 PM »
 I've read some third party info about a GW representative answering questions and stating that only AoS will be supported from now on (which was expected after the End times). The model range (+ square bases) will still be available and won't be replaced in the near future.

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #28 on: July 9, 2015, 03:45:36 PM »
Age of Sigmar has to be the single worst table top game right now. I'll stick to 40k and beer pong

Now this happens and THIS is how I feel!
Don't take this the wrong way, but have you played a game of Age of Sigmar yet?  A lot of the reactions like this that I see are coming from people who have not played a game, and are reacting purely on the fact that it isn't 9th edition fantasy.  Truth be told, I was one of those people as well.

However, when I have talked to people that have actually played a game or two, they have actually enjoyed it.  And this is coming from guys who have pretty much given up on playing Warhammer of any sort.  The only complaint about the mechanics comes from the lack of a balance system and the funky rules like dance for a reroll. 

Tonight is the night at my LGS that is reserved for WHFB, but is being switched over to AoS.  After having seen the game played, my interest has been piqued so that I am bringing my Bretonnians out of retirement to give it a shot.  It helps that the store owner has said that all of those silly rules that require the player to do something foolish to get a bonus will all give the bonus without requiring the stupid amphetamine parrot.

So, I guess I am reserving final judgement until after the game tonight.  We'll see how it holds up.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Calamity

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #29 on: July 9, 2015, 04:19:34 PM »
I'm willing to give it a shot.  I just hope all the old Fantasy models aren't being ditched.  I wanted to do Dwarfs again in the future.

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #30 on: July 9, 2015, 08:22:02 PM »
Age of Sigmar makes me want to start buying fantasy models. I want to make an army of trees!
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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #31 on: July 9, 2015, 10:51:26 PM »
Well, I got my game in tonight, and I gotta say... I had a lot of fun.  I think that is what a lot of people are over looking when they see the rules.  They want a complex game that can make things really powerful, and they want it to be a tense, edge of your seat experience.  But it isn't.  It is a game that can best be described as a "beer and pretzels" game.  You sit down with your friends and play a game for one simple reason, to have fun.  You don't have to remember the different charts, or the modifiers on your hit rolls, or the combat resolution with ranks and banners.  Every unit has set values for what they do and you just do it.

If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #32 on: July 10, 2015, 07:30:53 AM »
In your experience, do you think a group of 5 guys could sit down and hammer out a points system pretty easily for this? The game does look to have a certain... not elegance... but ease of play. I really do like the idea of playing Lizardmen, and 40k is kinda meh for me right now. But the lack of points structure would need to be fixed for my gaming group.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #33 on: July 10, 2015, 09:49:30 AM »
They want a complex game that can make things really powerful, and they want it to be a tense, edge of your seat experience.  But it isn't.  It is a game that can best be described as a "beer and pretzels" game.

What I most want to know is whether it is *tactically* interesting. I mean, if all we're doing is pushing models at each other and rolling dice, I don't really see the payoff for me, personally.

Is there an interesting maneuvering game going on that I don't see? Is there any kind of rock-paper-scissors thing that came up?

I'm not *that* concerned about balance, but I do want playing the game to have some element of challenge and tactical play. I know you don't *need* complex rules to do that, but you do need some limitations on things or it's just a bunch of blobs smashing into each other over and over again.   

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2015, 01:58:37 PM »
There is an air of strategy to it, but it is less about the manoeuvring.  The strategy comes from the order in which you attack.  Unlike 40k and fantasy where you would do a combat between two units before moving on, players take turns selecting units to attack in whichever order they want.  Meaning you can attack with a single model against a unit, but I am going to retaliate with a large unit against a couple of monsters and hope to drag some down before they get to hit at their full strength.

I also feel that magic and shooting will have a surprisingly large impact on the game.  Shooting because you can shoot into combat, you can shoot before charging, and if you are engaged you can shoot into the combat that you are in before rolling close combat attacks.  Magic, while simplistic, can be nasty.  The fact that the standard magic attack that wizards gets just does straight damage with no saves can be devastating, and if it is done right, your opponent won't be in range to dispel it.

It definitely isn't as tactical as it once was, but it is still fun to play.  I'll be honest, I enjoyed being able to fire 64 shots from 16 Peasant bowmen at a Scarred Vet on a Cold one.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2015, 04:48:35 PM »
So do you see it as being "Hero Hammer" all over again? With nigh indestructible Characters on nigh indestructible monsters ruling the roost?

Or are Peasant Bowmen the equal of a Lord on Monster? :)

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2015, 08:03:49 PM »
Characters are still a big influence in the game, but I don't really see it as hero hammer.  Mainly because characters are not nigh-indestructable.  For the most part, they have a 3+ or 4+ save, so sheer number of attacks can bring them down.  Also, if you use attacks that do extra damage, you don't need as many attacks to get through their armour before they bite it.

I do think that the games will be a lot quicker in pace once people become familiar with their own rules.  Perhaps to the point where games that took two hours to complete could be done in half the time.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Lord of Winter and War

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2015, 08:08:39 PM »
Rules for competitive play have been posted on the GW Toronto facebook.

Age of Sigmar Errata and Scenarios.pdf - Google Drive
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That's not blatant, this is blatant: I'm super happy that I'm playing Austria, the greatest nation in all of Diplomacy!

Azore of Austria

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2015, 09:05:12 PM »
Yeah, I've seen it.  What bothers me is what that first paragraph says:
Quote
Although Age of Sigmar has taken a unique approach to Tabletop Gaming, this document represents a completely unofficial way to modify the rules into ones more conducive to competitive play.

Emphasis mine.  And having read through it, a lot of the changes feel like they are someone's idea of what is wrong with the game.  Most of the changes in that document, in my opinion, don't need to be there.

Edit:  I found the post they made on their facebook group, and it is just that.  It is the list of changes they have made for their tournament that they are running.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2015, 09:06:40 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Age of Sigmar - thoughts?
« Reply #39 on: July 15, 2015, 08:27:11 AM »
Someone probably mentioned this already, but Age Of Sigmar has replaced Warhammer on the website.  The starter kit is front-and-center, the old Warhammer models are still there.

It's not just Sigmarines, either.  Did I post the photo of the ones equipped with, literally, boltguns?  Repeating crossbows.

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