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Author Topic: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?  (Read 20883 times)

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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #20 on: January 1, 2014, 09:43:25 AM »
The heat is in the nature of a debate. You take it out, you often kill the debate.

Making personal remarks about others is not necessary to make a convincing an argument.  Arguing the point not personalities is the way to have a constructive debate.

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Was it sarcasm, famous British politeness or am I so completely incomprehensible? If it's the last, i would rest my cause and go read through a dictionary or something.

I don't ask questions unless I want answers (i.e. there's no sarcasm), so it's straightforward question.  I don't understand what you're confused about, so please explain.

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So, by your definition, every forum is private because it has a holder, so there is never a forum which is made to actually be a "forum" - a place of free discussion and exchanging ideas. Seems like a sad concept to me.

No matter where you go the owner decides what is allowed and what is not allowed.  Even on blogs, the blog owner will decide what can or cannot be said, so it's not unique to forums.

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It's not about some post, I've spent what, 6 years here stalking and reading and sometimes posting here? I know of your moderating style. When I've seen this topic, however, it struck me that it could use another colorful opinion "from the outside", so here you have it. The question was - is over-moderation kills forum appeal? And my reply is - yes it does, and I think a more balanced approach to moderatorship would do this website some good.

So, essentially is what you're saying that you knew you were going to be moderated for posting the remark which you did, yet you went ahead and did it anyway just so that you could then post here and complain that we moderate too much?  If that's the case, then I don't really see that there's anything further to say on that subject, as you're fully aware of the forum rules.

I'll make one final point, and that's regarding your implicit complaint that moderation is somehow impacting on forum activity.  It's not the case.

I frequent a lot of forums, and activity is down on all of them.  In the past, forums were the place to go for content, but there is now so much competition from Facebook, Twitter, and blogs, that forums are losing out.  This has nothing to do with forum moderation here or anywhere else, and has everything to do with content.  People can now just get instant updates from these sources, and post instant feedback/replies, so they don't feel the need to come to a forum to discuss their views.

Another important point is that a lot of long term members here no longer play the game, or have more real life commitments.  It was these people who made the most frequent contributions over the years, and their absence has had a very big impact on forum activity.  A lot of these people wrote the tactical guides, gave the army list advice, and contributed more widely, so it stands to reason that the forum is going to be slower without them.

Finally, there is the issue of cost.  This is an expensive hobby to get into.  It's only ever going to appeal to a niche group of people in the first instance, and when you consider that a lot of the younger people coming into the game are more likely to use Facebook, Twitter and blogs (see above), you have fewer of them coming onto forums to ask for help, especially when there's fewer experienced players around than there used to be to offer them advice.
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Offline Shad

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #21 on: January 1, 2014, 11:07:59 AM »
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While interesting that is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was the mail from parents to me about all the foul thing that our site "subjected my poor innocent Timmy when he was reading about his toy soldiers! For shame!" Yeah, those kinds.
I got what you were talking about first time, yeah, although I find the argument too funny. Since Warhammer is a competitive game by default (and has sexy wytches!), and restricting kids from anything just makes them more interested, and they can always catch something somewhere else... well, you either ban internet from the house completely, or adapt a more progressive way of thinking. So, no, you can't blame some parents for the fact that 40konline has almost comical swearing censorship and other things. And if placing that "burden" on actual productive members seems like a fair deal for you, it's a shame.

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So, essentially is what you're saying that you knew you were going to be moderated for posting the remark which you did, yet you went ahead and did it anyway just so that you could then post here and complain that we moderate too much?
Lol. That theory deserves some sort of special "moderators" award.

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I frequent a lot of forums, and activity is down on all of them.  In the past, forums were the place to go for content, but there is now so much competition from Facebook, Twitter, and blogs, that forums are losing out.
From all the forums about hobby I know, 40konline slowed down the most. And what makes things like Dakka, Warseer or my local forum lively are usually debate, humor and arguing. Passionate people always argue. It is a sign of activity and commitment.

You guys blame parents, old players, new players, the hobby itself, yet there are people who actually blame your way of controlling your community, how you discourage friendly chatting, and so on. You can't fix things you do not control, but you can fix at least that, giving people a little more breathing space.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 11:15:20 AM by Shad »

Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #22 on: January 1, 2014, 11:23:35 AM »
Lol. That theory deserves some sort of special "moderators" award.

If you want your points to be taken seriously, responses like that don't help.  If you don't wish to answer questions which are put to you, then you can't expect to receive answers from the Staff here.

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From all the forums about hobby I know, 40konline slowed down the most. And what makes things like Dakka, Warseer or my local forum lively are usually debate, humor and arguing. Passionate people always argue. It is a sign of activity and commitment.

I'm also on WarSeer and traffic there is down.  There are far fewer posts made in the tactics and army lists boards than there used to be.  Also, the off topic/'chat' sections there have greatly reduced activity.  I also do a bit of work for SMF (who provide the forum software here and for numerous other online communities), and many admins of a wide variety of forums are encountering problems with traffic, so I have evidence to support what I'm saying.

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You guys blame parents, old players, new players, the hobby itself, yet there are people who actually blame your way of controlling your community, how you discourage friendly chatting, and so on. You can't fix things you do not control, but you can fix at least that, giving people a little more breathing space.

A forum isn't really for chatting.  That's more for instant messenger programs.  The closest you'll get here is the Space Tavern, which is for more light hearted threads.  You will note, however, that activity there is very slow, so if people really wanted to come here to chat, that would be a lot more active than it currently is.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 11:25:02 AM by Irisado »
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Offline starstrider

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #23 on: January 1, 2014, 02:23:48 PM »
I think the mods here are good people and stuff, and do a solid job.

I do feel that these forums are more heavily moderated than many similar sites though... I mean, almost 1/4 of the posts in general discussion as of my typing this are locked because they were moved or something. I can see that being advisable sometimes, but general discussion is really sort of a broad term... did the "tyranid release video" thread seriously need to get locked and moved out of general to the tyranid board? Isn't that something that anyone interested in 40k might not have known about, and would have been interested to see pop up in general? I say this because, personally, I wouldn't have found out from GW's site since I don't check it regularly, and I wouldn't have checked the nid board since I have no Tyranid army. I always check the general board though, and I am somewhat interested to find out there's an upcoming release. The thread got me to look at the video, if nothing else. And I feel I can't be the only person like that.

(Granted this isn't a fantastic example, since you still see the locked thread and it takes you to the new one, but hopefully you get my meaning. It really does seem /slightly/ odd to have 1/4 of the general posts locked like that. To someone new to the site, I can definitely see how it would possibly create a negative impression seeing so many dead threads.)

What about the "what's your typical game size" thread, which got locked and moved to beginners and newbies? It seems like a fair general, 40k related question to me. It certainly wasn't some sort of irrelevant spam cluttering the general board, and I don't see how it can be construed as terribly off-topic for general 40k. Is it also a good fit for beginners? Sure. But did it really have to get locked and moved? Is the fit /that much/ better?

I guess this thread is asking if such actions are off putting to users... I don't think I feel that strongly about it, personally. But I do think the forums would probably benefit (or, at the very least, not suffer) from just a touch more laxity in regards to issues like the above. A far as copyright and stuff goes, I blame GW and not the mods. GW has the people being overbearing, and we just sort of have to deal. Fair enough. As far as keeping it all-ages appropriate, if that's how it's been set up that's how it's been set up. Fair enough again. But some stuff still seems unnecessarily over-moderated imo.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 02:54:16 PM by starstrider »

Offline Shad

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #24 on: January 1, 2014, 03:01:44 PM »
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If you want your points to be taken seriously, responses like that don't help.  If you don't wish to answer questions which are put to you, then you can't expect to receive answers from the Staff here.
I can't respond seriously to things I can't take seriously, although I am actually trying.

What was the question? What is "confusing" for me? Nothing is confusing. I am not confused. I am in disagreement with your moderating policies. I do not like when you split an interesting debate about eldar troops into little chunks about avengers or guardians. I do not like the off-topic policies. I do not like the idiotic swearing filter which turns people's posts into some mess with local memes. I do not like when readable before moderator's touch posts end up as some pile of editing and erratas with different colors for fonts. I do not like that I can't say what particular rule does, although I see some of you guys actually tried to even contact GW about that, yet failed, because their Q&A department apparently is useless - so I'm not making my point based on that, as I understand why you do that in particular. Can't say it adds any charms to the place though, as some places still breath even if you can tell there what armour save a Dire Avenger has. And I for sure do not like that handholding which tries to make me a kinder man by fixing "too hot" and "baiting" parts of my posts, like a rigorous nanny.

And as this seems to be the right topic, I've posted my opinion here. And the more you post, the more I disagree and find more familiar traits I dislike ("Forum is not for chatting" "There is no free speech") in your way of thinking. Is this straight enough answer, does it satisfy you?

Oh and I am still collecting miniatures and paint them, I do not use twitter, I like forums, and I am in complete agreement with my parents about my hobby. Not that they could do anything about that since I am a big old angry man.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 03:10:43 PM by Shad »

Offline starstrider

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #25 on: January 1, 2014, 03:10:33 PM »
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the more you post, the more I disagree and find more familiar traits I dislike ("Forum is not for chatting" "There is no free speech") in your way of thinking.
It sounds extreme when he says "there is no free speech," but I mean, technically, it's quite true. The forum is private property, that can be set up pretty much how the owner wants as long as it's not in violation of any law (posting of copyrighted stat lines, for example). If the owner wants to say you can't do x, y, and z on his forum.. you can't. You're implicitly agreeing to that when you show up to use the forum (and you're explicitly agreeing to it when you sign up and click that i agree thing to register).

Unless I'm badly misreading him though, I don't think he's trying to argue that free speech is evil in and of itself, or that he aspires to squelch debate on principle just for the personal joy it gives, or that chatting is forbidden.

Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #26 on: January 1, 2014, 03:23:06 PM »
So, while I enjoy a piece of academical, sterile information from 40konline from time to time, from my point of view it's moderatorship is absolutely terrible and moderators are all contaminated with what is called, where I come from, a "janitor syndrome". They run around with their green markers trying to make everything as children-friendly as possible, which leads to confusion, dead topics, doesn't promote any establishment of relationship between visitors and make people resort to passive-agressive behavior.

What was the question? What is "confusing" for me? Nothing is confusing. I am not confused.

Please refer to the word that I've put in bold and underlined from your first post in this thread.  Since it's impossible to know how others feel without asking them, or having them tell you, that comment which you made about confusion can only refer to your own feelings.  This is why I posed the question which I did.

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I am in disagreement with your moderating policies. I do not like when you split an interesting debate about eldar troops into little chunks about avengers or guardians. I do not like the off-topic policies. I do not like the idiotic swearing filter which turns people's posts into some mess with local memes. I do not like when readable before moderator's touch posts end up as some pile of editing and erratas with different colors for fonts. I do not like that I can't say what particular rule does, although I see some of you guys actually tried to even contact GW about that, yet failed, because their Q&A department apparently is useless - so I'm not making my point based on that, as I understand why you do that in particular. Can't say it adds any charms to the place though, as some places still breath even if you can tell there what armour save a Dire Avenger has.

If you don't like the moderation policy, then I suggest that you contact Purple Raine (the forum owner).

Topics are split if people go off the topic in question, but the discussion is still of interest.  It's immensely disrespectful to the person who started the thread to allow others to hijack it, which is why we like to keep threads on topic.  Splitting threads, where possible, is a neat way of doing that, and much better than deleting the posts.

You can deactivate the swear filter if that's your preference.  Go to User Settings > Look and Layout > Leave Words Uncensored.  Problem solved.

The point is that people aren't supposed to like the moderation edits, they have to stand out to be seen.

Regarding copyright issues, you'll have to take all of that up with GW legal, as you yourself have alluded to.

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And as this seems to be the right topic, I've posted my opinion here. And the more you post, the more I disagree and find more familiar traits I dislike ("Forum is not for chatting" "There is no free speech") in your way of thinking. Is this straight enough answer, does it satisfy you?

It's not about satisfying me.  I'm just here to answer your questions with the facts as to how this forum operates.  Nothing more nothing less.  If you don't like the way that forum operates, you'll have to take it up with Raine or Rasmus.

It sounds extreme when he says "there is no free speech," but I mean, technically, it's quite true. The forum is private property, that can be set up pretty much how the owner wants as long as it's not in violation of any law (posting of copyrighted stat lines, for example). If the owner wants to say you can't do x, y, and z on his forum.. you can't. You're implicitly agreeing to that when you show up to use the forum (and you're explicitly agreeing to it when you sign up and click that i agree thing to register).

Unless I'm badly misreading him though, I don't think he's trying to argue that free speech is evil in and of itself, or that he aspires to squelch debate on principle just for the personal joy it gives, or that chatting is forbidden.

Correct on all accounts Starstrider.  I should also have pointed out that signing the user agreement when creating your account means exactly what you say.  I'd forgotten about that.  Thanks for the reminder.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 03:24:20 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Shad

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #27 on: January 1, 2014, 03:42:19 PM »
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Unless I'm badly misreading him though, I don't think he's trying to argue that free speech is evil in and of itself, or that he aspires to squelch debate on principle just for the personal joy it gives, or that chatting is forbidden.
It's not about intrinsic nature of what a web domain is, but about the ideas on how you treat your community. I prefer more straightforward and honest approach to "let's edit everything", because the latter just sucks out the fun from posting for me. Irisado might as well said "it's the rules, get over it", it really would be the same. Oh, wait, already did.

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You can deactivate the swear filter if that's your preference.  Go to User Settings > Look and Layout > Leave Words Uncensored.  Problem solved.
Okay, you have a point there, lol.

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Please refer to the word that I've put in bold and underlined from your first post in this thread.
The splitting and moving threads is confusing because it breaks the flow of a discussion occurring. In real life we do not come and go from room to room if a topic is suddenly changed, and similar patterns occur when we discuss online. And as it usually happens from moderator's own perception of what is actually topic and what isn't, people tend to get confused. I am, at least.

Does every person who's topic you split actually reports that "he is hijacked" and offended? I find that just unbelievable.

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If you don't like the moderation policy, then I suggest that you contact Purple Raine (the forum owner).
Why? This is a topic where I can share my thoughts with the community and see if I am alone in my opinions and maybe wrong, or that I am not the only person who have problems like these. Here I can be heard, my words read, agreed or disagreed. And if I would be a forum owner, I would read community opinion on my work from time to time, to discuss and adjust (or not) things accordingly among the staff. At least that's how I tend to work on my own forum, for example, and what people do on some others. They are not afraid to bring their opinions on moderating, and the staff is not detached from discussion, but takes it time to reply and debate.

You guys seem to be very technical and detached in that respect. Maybe it works for you, but I see it more as a weakness than a right way of dealing with users.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 03:53:30 PM by Shad »

Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #28 on: January 1, 2014, 05:51:08 PM »
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Unless I'm badly misreading him though, I don't think he's trying to argue that free speech is evil in and of itself, or that he aspires to squelch debate on principle just for the personal joy it gives, or that chatting is forbidden.
It's not about intrinsic nature of what a web domain is, but about the ideas on how you treat your community. I prefer more straightforward and honest approach to "let's edit everything", because the latter just sucks out the fun from posting for me. Irisado might as well said "it's the rules, get over it", it really would be the same. Oh, wait, already did.
We operate in a very honest and straight forward manner.  We are straight forward in the fact that the people of this community know that we ask people to follow the rules as they have been laid down and that if the rules are not followed, your post will be edited.

We are honest in that we state the rules on a page clearly marked as "Forum Rules" and there are no rules that get enforced that are not written down.  If a board has any additional rules, there is a thread there also marked as rules. 

We do not "edit everything," because if we did, ever single post would be edited by moderators.  We edit the posts that violate our forum rules but have not gone to the extent of being purged. 

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Please refer to the word that I've put in bold and underlined from your first post in this thread.
The splitting and moving threads is confusing because it breaks the flow of a discussion occurring. In real life we do not come and go from room to room if a topic is suddenly changed, and similar patterns occur when we discuss online. And as it usually happens from moderator's own perception of what is actually topic and what isn't, people tend to get confused. I am, at least.

Does every person who's topic you split actually reports that "he is hijacked" and offended? I find that just unbelievable.
No, not everyone does.  But if you are new to the discussion, click on a thread titled "Tactical uses for X unit" and have found that within a page and a half it was gone from the original topic to "X unit vs Y unit" and even further onto "Tactical uses for Y unit," if you read through the whole thing it makes sense.  But if you are skimming through or only looking at the last few posts in a thread, confusion is bound to happen.

So instead of that occuring, "Tactical uses for Y unit" gets split into its own discussion and people are encouraged to continue debating the ideas that now work for the listed thread.


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If you don't like the moderation policy, then I suggest that you contact Purple Raine (the forum owner).
Why? This is a topic where I can share my thoughts with the community and see if I am alone in my opinions and maybe wrong, or that I am not the only person who have problems like these. Here I can be heard, my words read, agreed or disagreed. And if I would be a forum owner, I would read community opinion on my work from time to time, to discuss and adjust (or not) things accordingly among the staff. At least that's how I tend to work on my own forum, for example, and what people do on some others. They are not afraid to bring their opinions on moderating, and the staff is not detached from discussion, but takes it time to reply and debate.


You guys seem to be very technical and detached in that respect. Maybe it works for you, but I see it more as a weakness than a right way of dealing with users.
If that is how you have things work on your forum, then that works for you.  Through experience, that does not work here.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2014, 05:52:14 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #29 on: January 1, 2014, 05:56:20 PM »
GML's covered everything better than I could have done.  I just have one additional point to make in relation to this:

Why? This is a topic where I can share my thoughts with the community and see if I am alone in my opinions and maybe wrong, or that I am not the only person who have problems like these. Here I can be heard, my words read, agreed or disagreed. And if I would be a forum owner, I would read community opinion on my work from time to time, to discuss and adjust (or not) things accordingly among the staff. At least that's how I tend to work on my own forum, for example, and what people do on some others. They are not afraid to bring their opinions on moderating, and the staff is not detached from discussion, but takes it time to reply and debate.

You guys seem to be very technical and detached in that respect. Maybe it works for you, but I see it more as a weakness than a right way of dealing with users.

If members of the community weren't allowed to have a say, then this board wouldn't exist ;).

As for contacting Raine, I suggested that because if you think that all of the Staff here do such a bad job you could always to complain to him, since he is the last point of call.
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Offline Shad

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #30 on: January 1, 2014, 06:16:52 PM »
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We operate in a very honest and straight forward manner.  We are straight forward in the fact that the people of this community know that we ask people to follow the rules as they have been laid down and that if the rules are not followed, your post will be edited.
I think from what I posted it's should be p. obvious that it is the way your rules and their application often make people feel uncomfortable I have trouble with, not personal dishonesty or something.

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If that is how you have things work on your forum, then that works for you.  Through experience, that does not work here.
If you say so.

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If members of the community weren't allowed to have a say, then this board wouldn't exist ;).
Well this board has that "rant about the site" part in it's description so you've got one, or rather, multiple. Perhaps it was a bit too colorful in it's lexicon, but it is generally how I feel about Eldar forums now, in particular. At first I was discouraged from posting from the lack of experience and language barriers, now it's because I am not sure what my post would turn out to be after all the editions, or how I can explain something without going into offtopic or using units stats or rule descriptions.

The second "lol" wasn't a punch at you, btw, I really appreciate the help in turning that damned filter off.

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As for contacting Raine, I suggested that because if you think that all of the Staff here do such a bad job you could always to complain to him, since he is the last point of call.
In my opinion it's better to post a honest rant so everyone would have a say in it and defend themselves than write a complaint behind the back of the people I am criticizing to the "big boss" with a title "all your moderators suck".

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #31 on: January 1, 2014, 06:19:03 PM »
Hello everyone. My name's Great Big Tree, and I'm an rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean?.

I'm the guy that goes out of his way to call to task an authority figure that I feel is acting inappropriately. I've done so plenty of times. I also don't feel that one-off quips are that worthy of Moderating, to the point that I'd gained a custom title decrying my sins as a spammer, with the quip, "Whatever, I post what I want."

[Which I miss, by the way, because it's true, and it vaguely warns people that I don't pull punches. Saves a couple of posts with me explaining the nature of my comments as being direct, which seems to confuse the Brits. ;)]

I do agree that anything copyright related needs to be addressed, because there are legal ramifications and I hate the idea of media piracy, in any form. I work hard for my money, and so do games designers. "Hard" being entirely relative. They still deserve to get paid, at a minimum, for their work.


I agree that most non-legal stuff could probably be let slide, especially in light of the low turnout this site experiences. I don't feel it would drag the quality below acceptable levels of sterility, but that's me.

Which brings me to my point. This sandbox is the property of Purple Raine, and agents that he has chosen. If a person doesn't like it, they can leave. Or build their own sandbox. Or play in someone else's sandbox. Or go beslubber themselves. See? I like to be direct.

It could be put up in black and white that the people in charge don't care much what other people think. It might save some chafing from people that feel their opinions are valid and should be listened to, like me. If it just said in black and white, "If you don't like it, too bad." then threads like this wouldn't be needed. There's an implied democracy that doesn't exist. That's where the chafing comes in. It's presented in a way that implies what you think about how the site is run matters, and it doesn't.

If a person can learn to live with that, they might stick around and rack up about 2.5 k posts, though they might come dangerously close to losing their option to return by getting banned. Truthfully, the "Black Mark" system is bullamphetamine parrot. You could get the boot whenever the powers that be feel like it. That whole implied democracy thing, fair process, etc. Otherwise people might take off before they get to 100 posts, like, oh, 95% of the registered users.

If you can deal with it, great. If not, you know how to browse to sites where free-wheeling hippie types run the show.

Smile. I'm being mildly humorous in a stark, black-and-white kind of way. :D

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #32 on: January 1, 2014, 06:26:27 PM »
I also don't feel that one-off quips are that worthy of Moderating, to the point that I'd gained a custom title decrying my sins as a spammer, with the quip, "Whatever, I post what I want."

[Which I miss, by the way, because it's true, and it vaguely warns people that I don't pull punches. Saves a couple of posts with me explaining the nature of my comments as being direct, which seems to confuse the Brits. ;)]

Oh, I can put that back if you like.  ;)

As an explanation, warning/punishment titles are worked off over time/activity so they go away after someone posts for a while without breaking any of the rules. "Funny" titles remain though as badges of honour and glooooooory!
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #33 on: January 1, 2014, 06:45:45 PM »
At first I was discouraged from posting from the lack of experience and language barriers, now it's because I am not sure what my post would turn out to be after all the editions, or how I can explain something without going into offtopic or using units stats or rule descriptions.

The sections about off topic posting and thread hijacking in the Netiquette Made Easy section of the forum rules might be of some help to you.

Regarding stats and rules, that's the easiest one to avoid.  Basically, if you're telling us things that we can all find by looking in the rulebook or codex, then that's usually going to be giving out too much information to run the risk of leaving a post unedited.  You can see from how others post what's acceptable and what's not.  Yes, it's irritating having to be so careful with copyright, but we have to be careful.  GW legal has monitored and contacted this forum in the past, so we cannot take any risks.

Quote
The second "lol" wasn't a punch at you, btw, I really appreciate the help in turning that damned filter off.

I know, but thank you for clarifying nevertheless :).

Truthfully, the "Black Mark" system is bullamphetamine parrot. You could get the boot whenever the powers that be feel like it.

Nope, you really couldn't ;).  There's a procedure and system to be followed.  Also, banning powers are limited to very few people, so taking all those factors into account, it's actually pretty difficult to get banned, unless someone's trying really hard to break the rules.

You haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #34 on: January 1, 2014, 06:51:05 PM »
Spambots, abusive/trolling sock puppets, and "shock" accounts are about the only ones that do get killed by fire immediately. Of which, since Kindred established the Great Fire Wall of Protection, we've seen very few in recent times.
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You have to love the smell of science in the morning. It smells of learning.... or perhaps a gas leak.

Offline Wyddr

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #35 on: January 1, 2014, 07:14:10 PM »
I get pretty tired about people complaining about the moderation here. Pardon me for a moment while I wax rude:

The rules are pretty beslubbering simple. Be polite. Post on topic. Don't be a douchebag.

If this sounds like over-moderation to you or it makes you uncomfortable, this is probably because you are a douchebag OR you have spent so much time online surrounded by douchebags that you feel that's how decent people converse with one another.

If the former case is true, then get out of here and don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. If the latter case is true, understand that this forum is how polite and mature people converse and learn to adapt. It will be good for you.

I've been posting on this site for years and I've been cited for spamming once (and they were right, it was spam). It wasn't because I sat in front of my computer monitor for hours thinking over how to not get in trouble, either. It's because, at heart, I'm a polite and mature person and am able to converse with others without insulting their intelligence, their parentage, or grunting like a beslubbering ape.

So, in short, if you think this forum is 'oppressive', you are an idiot and probably a jerk and good riddance. Go wade into the depths of Spamalot on Warseer or Dakka and enjoy making dick jokes about those who disagree with you. This site insists upon good manners and maturity, and I love it for that alone. I'm sticking around, and I (politely) invite people who likewise enjoy discussing the hobby more than tossing insults around to join it and post away.

Offline Spectral Arbor

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #36 on: January 1, 2014, 07:34:08 PM »
I'm not saying that a person is apt to be banned in a spontaneous manner, but it could happen. Even if it is because they're deliberately being a jerk, it could happen. Even if, for some reason, a power-that-be decides that they don't like the way a person types, they could ban someone. In the end, the site is an Autocracy, and it is run as such. There really is no reason to falsely present it in any other way. That's what grinds the gears of certain types of people. False pretense.

It is fine that the site is run in such a way. In my house, people are welcome until they're not. There's no system. Over time, if someone does something small that irritates me, I will eventually not allow them to come into my home. If someone does something immediately and enormously offensive to me, I'll make them leave. It's my house, and it's my rules. I'm responsible for what goes on here. If someone dealt small amounts of drugs in my house, I'd kick them out. It's very unlikely that I'd suffer legal ramifications from their doing so, but I wouldn't tolerate it, because I'm the person that would have to deal with the legal problems that might ensue.

There is one, and maybe a small handful, of people that need to deal with the legal ramifications of 40k Online getting slapped by GW. People that say, "Other sites get away with it, so we should be allowed to do it here," aren't recognizing the real-world ramifications that the people that own / run the joint might suffer. Such people aren't the ones taking the risk, the owner/s are. There's a flat-out selfish thought process at work there, and it gets me riled.

If the powers that be would just stop presenting the site as a quasi-democracy and they just put a hard line out there that the site is run they way they want, and that's the way it is, that would be best.

Offline Daveseer

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #37 on: January 1, 2014, 08:42:03 PM »
Good discussion guys!  Every site should question how it is run and frankly, it is a testament to the moderators that they have allowed this discussion to be played out as it has.  Now my two-cents worth!

I read this site for about a year before actually joining.  During this time I have skimmed a number of other related forums.  None of them approach this forum for both the quality of writing (afraid I'm old style with language/grammar etc!), and the intelligent approach to the subject matter.  This can mostly be ascribed to the quality of the moderation (the quality of the contributors does the rest). With regards to specifics:

Moving Posts; Occasionally annoying but essential if the site is going to have structure at all.  As all moved posts are clearly linked within the areas they were originally posted, I don't see the problem with this.  If you want specific topics, go to the appropriate areas - the general area is best used for new topics that may or may not crystalise into a specific topic.

Bad language/behaviour;  I am mumble,ahem,mumble,grunt,ahem,mumble years old and spent some 13 years in the British Army, so have a pretty sound grasp of bad behavior and the noble art of swearing (the only area of foreign languages in which I excel!).  I also know when it is appropriate to use bad/colourful/whatever language and that bad behaviour is only appropriate in certain life-threatening circumstances.  None of this belongs to an open forum for game-lovers, and why bother when a bit of creativity will give you a word like 'beslubbers'!

Forum rules;  If you don't think you need them (and I don't think anyone has suggested such!?) you are probably in a universe of one.  The rules for this forum are very clear and even provide examples for those of us previously unclear on the exact meanings of trolling/flaming/spamming etc.  If only GW could provide the same level of clear examples in their rulebooks!

Disciplining;  I don't know how many people have been slung off this site, I suspect very few, and I see no sign of any muzzling of opinions.  I have had my wrist slapped once with regards to Spamming (for humorous purposes).  The moderators explained exactly why my post was pulled and even provided examples of other posts that had been pulled for exactly the same reasons, making it rather hard for me to feel victimised - few forums will go to that trouble I suspect. 

The application of rules will always lead to some level of political correctness and the perception that the enforcers are nanny-staters, with no sense of humour.  If you actually have the responsibility for managing a function, you quickly discover how easily humour can be misinterpreted, particularly in the written form, and how easy it is to offend where no offence was intended.  This is why the moderators behave and write in the way they do - they have a responsibility which they all appear to take seriously.

Elitist treatment;  We are now entering the wonderful world of ego, paranoia and conspiracy theory, so beware and abandon hope all ye who enter!  As said above I am ahem,woah nelly, looky here - years old - the moderators don't know that.  I have 40 years of experience at wargaming - the moderators don't know that.  I have designed figures/rules etc - the moderators don't know that.  I won Mr Lovely-legs two years running in the Preston Garrison NAAFI club -  the moderators don't know or want to know that!  All the moderators do know is what I post, and my 40K online reputation lives and dies on that simple fact.  I can see no evidence that posts are treated any differently with regards to the quantity of posts made by the member. 

If you are going to make an issue with regard to quantity of posts then yes, some people have gone to a great deal of time and trouble to make valid contributions to the various debates over many years and kudos to them!  Beware of letting ego blind judgement.  My initial response to being spammed was mild outrage (Only having a bit of fun, no sense of humour, my opinion must be heard dammit! - the usual human responses!), once my brain kicked in and had a word to my ego (something to do with being blah. yada, ahem, mumble years old!), I realised that the spamming notice was richly deserved.

One final point, as a nooby (so glad I could shoot the Llama though!), my experience in joining the site is still fresh in my mind.  I have received nothing but prompt, friendly and very clear advice and help from all members of the 40K online community be it moderator or member.  The bottom line remains - if the moderating and content is bad, the site will wither and die.  I see no sign of this.


All the best in 2014 - Keep your Craftworld strong!


PS.  The 40K rulebook requires another special rule for Irisado - Fast & Relentless!
PPS; Folks, keep it nice - we are all entitled to our opinions (no matter how strange!)
Daveseer

Offline Dread

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #38 on: January 1, 2014, 08:53:29 PM »
Nice summation Daveseer. You are correct on all points. I second your post.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #39 on: January 1, 2014, 09:46:24 PM »
Nice summation Daveseer. You are correct on all points. I second your post.

I'm going to third it, at the risk of spamming.

I'm also going to point out that, as much as we all love this hobby, it isn't really *important* in any actual sense. To complain and moan and cry about how you have been 'oppressed' or 'muzzled' in a free forum devoted to discussing toy soldiers is a bit like going to free breakfast at the local church and complaining because the priest scolded you for blasphemy: you're getting free eggs, dude. Shut up and eat them or leave. 

 


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