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Author Topic: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?  (Read 22282 times)

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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #120 on: January 6, 2014, 12:10:04 PM »
... My main beef is with the amount of flexibility allowed by some of the moderators with some of the "softer" rules.
Notably this is the editing, cutting and locking of threads that go vaguely off topic. Also, as was stated above, the zero tolerance approach in the rumours board, where discussion and speculation is treated like some malignant cancer, leaving the board a sterile wasteland. ...

There's a reason for the strict rumor policing, yet even that has been updated to modern day.  Back when 40kO had loads of traffic, any rumor thread would be inundated with, well, spam.  We wanted 40kO to be better than the other "popular" forums that allowed rampant spam that drowned out credible rumors in a tide of "what ifs" and "I hope X" and "my army is doomed now if Y, this sucks ass I'm quitting."  Just look at one of the infamous Eldar rumor threads from the EldarOnline days, before things were regulated:

But, traffic has waned so myself and others pushed to loosen the restrictions.  We now allow speculation threads, but those go in their respective forums.  Maybe we should allow the separate speculation thread to remain in the same forum?  Everyone is curious about the impending Tyranid release, for instance.  But rumor threads remain strictly for credible rumors since there are people who have been out of the loop that wish to quickly get abreast to the latest developments.

Some general clarifications:

1) Not every intervention by a forum staffer is punishment.  Not everything we do results in "bad points" for the user, and we like to help!
2) I have from time to time reminded people that the rules are a guideline, not an implacable golem.  When I hear "zero tolerance" I take that to heart, the very concept is anathema to good stewardship and moderation.  Each situation is different and must be considered with fresh objectivity, not a, "There's nothing I can do, these are the rules, this is what I must do" mentality.
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #121 on: January 6, 2014, 12:12:57 PM »
Underhand:

Thanks for bringing this up, I'll hope to clear this up with some answers.  I wish that you had sent me a PM at the time though, as had I known this was a problem, it could have been cleared up nearly two years ago.

Note that further on in that same thread both Rummy and Kindred (who are higher up the pecking order than me) said that there would be no such board, so it was quite clearly a Staff decision.  I don't have the power to take decisions on my own.  It's also worth noting that some other members who are not Staff were also not overly keen on the idea.

No demand was made of you.  Here was my request from that thread:

Such articles do not exist for fifth edition as far as I am aware.  If you have seen any in the article database, then links would be appreciated.

I'm sorry if you thought that was a demand, but it doesn't read like a demand to me.

You'll also note that I made it clear in my first reply in that thread that I was giving my opinion.  I used those very words in fact.  I also gave you alternative options to show that I wasn't dismissing your idea, as there were other ways which were open to you, and still are open to you by the way, had you wanted to write something.

I also made it clear as the discussion progressed that 40K Online's policy on creating new boards was as follows (bold text added for emphasis):

Regarding the link about 66% being in favour of starting such a board from another site, that was 66% of 53 voters.  That's not an impressive display of support.  The rule here is that traffic justifies the creation of new boards, and, as I've alluded to above, there isn't enough.

I made that post approximately 24 hours after your initial inquiry, which I feel was a pretty fast response time, given that I wanted to look at older threads to see how the Staff had treated previous requests for new boards.

Now, your argument seems to be that I should have said that earlier.  Perhaps you're right about that, but I wanted to actually discuss it first, because, I wanted to see whether you had a convincing case to change my mind.  You could have had access to a lot more information than I had come across, and may have persuaded me to think differently, so I thought that by debating it with you, you'd have a fair chance to put your case.

At no stage did I intentionally stonewall you.  I'm sorry if you feel that I did, but that was not my intention at all.

As I said it's about perception more than the intent. Internet communication is always tricky as a lot of the subtleties of face to face communication are lost and while you may be using those coloured markers to help people it can also be seen as very intrusive by others. I'm not judging as without seeing the number of "What happened to my post?" questions you got before the colours were added and seeing the number of requests afterwards I have no grounds to judge if it is a good thing or bad, but just because you do something for one reason does not mean that others wont see it as something completely different. Again it's about the mod teams public image.

I agree with what you're saying here.  It's a very good point.  I do believe that a lot of this is all about perception.  That also makes it incredibly difficult to solve in such a way that all sides participating in the discussion are happy with the outcome.
« Last Edit: January 6, 2014, 12:59:02 PM by Irisado »
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #122 on: January 6, 2014, 12:26:57 PM »
I am surprised that Irisado, of all people, is being singled out.  Before the promotion, it was a running gag that practically any numerical reference in the Eldar forum was Reported as a copyright violation.  That aside, he is one of the friendliest and most patient staff members we have.

No one is asking for a rote list of grievances with links to threads in question, no one thinks our users are "pre-pubescant morons," (with some exceptions) but the Report To Moderator button is there for a reason, it should not gather dust.  I got Reported recently and the complaint was taken seriously.  Staff members have been docked and even punted in the past for misbehavior, just because we don't publicly tar and feather the transgressor doesn't mean we don't do it.

Edit: It took me a while to find the Eldar Rumor Thread from before the old 4th edition Codex came out.  EldarOnline had loads of traffic, and Eldar was one of the most popular-but-neglected armies in the game, yearning for something other than the dilapidated 3rd Edition Codex of almost ten years before.  The thread was 339 pages long, care to guess how long the thread would be if it contained only rumors?

New Eldar Codex
« Last Edit: January 6, 2014, 12:34:38 PM by Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) »
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Offline Killing Time

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #123 on: January 6, 2014, 02:24:05 PM »
Damn. Another post eaten by the internet!

There's a reason for the strict rumor policing, yet even that has been updated to modern day.  Back when 40kO had loads of traffic, any rumor thread would be inundated with, well, spam.  We wanted 40kO to be better than the other "popular" forums that allowed rampant spam that drowned out credible rumors in a tide of "what ifs" and "I hope X" and "my army is doomed now if Y, this sucks ass I'm quitting."  Just look at one of the infamous Eldar rumor threads from the EldarOnline days, before things were regulated:

I appreciate the reason for these rules, but I also suspect that they've become obsolete.
People like free form discussion - it's what the internet is very good for - and being given the leeway to chew the fat on a rumours board is actually what many people came here for.
The old Eldar thread was 300 odd pages long, and yes a lot of it was wishlisting, spam and rage quitting.
But it also generated a huge amount of traffic just through its very existence, and I guarantee that a lot of activity on the rest of the site was indirectly generated by the huge community moaning, whining and be-atching on that thread.

Quote
But, traffic has waned so myself and others pushed to loosen the restrictions.  We now allow speculation threads, but those go in their respective forums.  Maybe we should allow the separate speculation thread to remain in the same forum?  Everyone is curious about the impending Tyranid release, for instance.  But rumor threads remain strictly for credible rumors since there are people who have been out of the loop that wish to quickly get abreast to the latest developments.

If the rumour thread could be loosened up to have a roundup of rumours and then a separate free-for-all in the mold of the old Eldar thread I think you'd see a lot more traffic genrated as a result. People want to have a forum to chat. And chatting includes whining and moaning as much as it does producing insightful commentary.

Quote
Some general clarifications:

1) Not every intervention by a forum staffer is punishment.  Not everything we do results in "bad points" for the user, and we like to help!
2) I have from time to time reminded people that the rules are a guideline, not an implacable golem.  When I hear "zero tolerance" I take that to heart, the very concept is anathema to good stewardship and moderation.  Each situation is different and must be considered with fresh objectivity, not a, "There's nothing I can do, these are the rules, this is what I must do" mentality.

Your light touch moderating is highly appreciated and well respected.
But there are others on the staff who certainly consider the rules to be sacrosanct rather than guidelines, and those who bring a distinct sourness of tone in their dealings with the public posters.
It's highly counter productive, especially on a site with already much stricter rules than the rest of the internet - making it feel at best like a boarding school and at worst like a police state.

EDIT:
I have never intended to turn this thread into a personal attack on any individual moderators. My sincere apologies if it does indeed come across that way.
Unfortunately it is specific moderators who tend to epitomise the problems that I and the rest of the posters here have been trying to elucidate, and when examples of that very behaviour colour this thread as well it's only natural to target those staff with counter arguments.
« Last Edit: January 6, 2014, 02:31:04 PM by Killing Time »

Offline Alienscar

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #124 on: January 7, 2014, 10:42:07 AM »
+ 1. This thread is cool.
The Devil in me wanted to write the rest of my post in white so that it was invisible but common sense prevailed.  :)

There are a lot of really good posts in here from both sides and I must admit that as the argument builds the more that the arguments of “over moderation” seem a bit overzealous. But I must also admit that I still feel a residual resonance to the arguments of over moderation. Personally I think the resonance that I feel is true for a lot of users and this is part of the problem. Whilst going back 3 or more years might seem excessive in reality it isn’t. The scars of the past remain with us for a long time. Melodramatic maybe but that is the problem with people we are influenced by many things that aren’t immediately obvious but they affect us nonetheless.

I normally use Boss Solorg as an example of the rules (how long ago is that?) being used in the place of common sense, but I won’t this time. As I said a lot of my resonance with the over moderation argument is based on a mutual feeling of understanding and though not the evidence asked for I always felt that Tryanotherone was hounded out of here by overzealous application of the rules. For instance how does this and this differ from this?

Personally speaking this apparent double standard in enforcing a non-existing rule goes someway in explaining why longer term members may feel slightly frustrated by moderator actions.

Most of the frustrations I sympathise with can be neatly summed up by underhand.
People aren't complaining about moderators breaking the rules or other policies of the site.   
People are complaining about:
(1)  the unnecessarily high setting of those rules; and
(2)  the unnecessarily strict enforcement of those rules. 

 Given the arbitrary nature of the rules it is bound to frustrate people when what seem like reasonable requests are met with a response of “they shall not change”. It goes against everything that is natural that something so arbitrary should be set in stone.
I find the Link provided by GML quite interesting as not only does the OP affected never post again (cause and effect maybe?) but there are two instances of “Mod voice” interjection warning about off topic comments. My view in this instance is the same as everyone else’s.  As long as the OP doesn’t complain then any interjection by a Mod is just the rules getting in the way of common sense. I know Mr.Peanut has stated that we aren’t treated like morons but trying to direct the conversation of adults is very much treating us like children.

From my viewpoint it is easy to see why people get upset by the off topic and topic splitting antics and I’m surprised that none of the Mods can empathise with that feeling. Discussion in real life does not occur in this fashion and I believe this is the cause of the majority of the frustration. Rule or not it is hard for the average person to understand why discussion on a website can’t occur in the same fashion as a normal conversation.

I assume you're referring to the stickied thread about posting guidelines? - which was 3 and a half(ish) years ago
I'll be honest - at the time it was made it was with the best intentions,

Sorry Changeyname but the stickied thread is what I was referring to. If you don’t mind me saying I see this rule as a clear indication of how counterintuitive some of this Forum rules can be. If a board is receiving a large amount of a certain type of post shouldn’t that inform us as to how people like to post? A rule can’t make people post more than they want on a subject. What is harder to understand is that when activity started to decline why wasn’t the rule changed? I applaud you for listening Changey I just hope it isn’t too late.

Sorry again but I also see your response as proof as to why moderators should make an announcement when the application of a rule has changed. In this instance whilst you had changed the way you responded to one line answers because the general public weren’t aware they obviously had no choice but to continue posting/not posting in accordance with the posted rules.

It is the same for the supposed changes to thread necromancy. If a change is made in its application how are we supposed to know? This thread is a good example of what I mean. When Shad first posted I was continually waiting for the lockdown and was surprised when it didn’t happen. If, when the Mods had decided to be more lenient with thread necromancy, the rules had been updated I wouldn’t have been so surprised.
 
As to moving posts from one board to another does such a hard line really need to be pursued? If a post has been made and is already receiving responses would it really hurt to leave it where it is? The fact that people have found a Nid post in Gen40K shows that it doesn’t really matter. Why not wait until the activity has died down and then move it if you want the boards to be tidy?

Like Irisado I too remember a post requesting the Mod colour to be changed but all I could find was

I was wondering if there was any chance of changing the dark green colour currently used in any moderator comments and edits to a bit more light green colour?
Your comment has been noted - oink

Unless I’m missing something this one request seemed enough to make you all change the Mod edit colour so I’m asking now for a return to the friendlier Mod edit that is shown in This post.

Whilst looking for this post I discovered that complaints of over moderation and lack of forum activity go all the way back to 2006. I also found that Khodexus got banned. For me that is more evidence that overzealous application of the rules is to the detriment of this site. Even though he had committed thread necromancy this Forum lost an asset through rigid application of an arbitrary rule.

I could go on but I think I have posted more than enough but there is just one important item I would like to finish with.

I have a story I want to tell, and I'm going to see it through. From there? I don't know.


Please tell me that this doesn’t mean you are thinking of leaving GreatBigTree? It is my opinion that over 2013 it is you, Koval & Wyddr that have kept this site afloat. Without you 3 I honestly think this site might not survive.

Oh one other last thing. I like this site. I have learned to live with the rules and their application but that doesn't mean the best can't get better.

« Last Edit: January 7, 2014, 10:48:11 AM by Alienscar »
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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #125 on: January 7, 2014, 11:26:00 AM »
For instance how does this and this differ from this?

At the time, there was an RSS Feed board, and Try was replicating that when he didn't need to, so that was a major part of the issue there.  The Staff at the time explained that he just needed to post more in his opening post to make it less like an RSS feed, and then it would have been okay.  Makenshi, who's one of the friendliest guys I've met here, made that very clear.  All Try needed to do was add more content to his post (his opinion would have been enough to generate a discussion).

Quote
From my viewpoint it is easy to see why people get upset by the off topic and topic splitting antics and I’m surprised that none of the Mods can empathise with that feeling. Discussion in real life does not occur in this fashion and I believe this is the cause of the majority of the frustration. Rule or not it is hard for the average person to understand why discussion on a website can’t occur in the same fashion as a normal conversation.

Speaking from the other side, I don't like it as a regular member on a number of sites where they don't split topics, so that works both ways.  Some people will dislike topic splits, some people like topic splits.  We can't please everyone all of the time.

As for the reasoning, a forum is neither an IM program nor IRC.  From the Netiquette Made Easy page of 40K Online:

Quote
Off-topic
Posting off-topic is interjecting irrelevant material into a thread. This is considered very poor netiquette, and akin to spam.
John: So, what did you think of the show last night?
Jake: It was great. I can’t believe we got such great seats!
John: I know. Next time that band is in town we have to see them again.
Mike: What do you guys think of firehydrants?
John: What? We’re talking about the show last night, Mike.
Mike: Yeah, but I’d rather talk about firehydrants!

You can clearly see how this is rude.


Hi-jacking threads
Hi-jacking is very much like off-topic posting, only slightly more sneaky. It is posting in a related subject, but still not on topic.
John: So I take a left at the beach, then up the hill, and then hang right?
Jake: Yeah, only don’t go too far, passed the farm, or you will have missed it.
John: Right. Ok. I think I got it now. Left, up, right, not too far.
Mike: How do I get to the cinema?
Jake: We’re talking about the directions to the mall.
Mike: I know, but I figured you could just stop that and tell me how to get to the cinema instead.

Also, clearly rude.

You might not agree with the rule, but I hope that clarifies for you the reasons why we have the rule in the first place.

Quote
As to moving posts from one board to another does such a hard line really need to be pursued? If a post has been made and is already receiving responses would it really hurt to leave it where it is? The fact that people have found a Nid post in Gen40K shows that it doesn’t really matter. Why not wait until the activity has died down and then move it if you want the boards to be tidy?

Following that line of thought to its logical conclusion we would just do away with all boards, have one board called 'Everything', and have all the threads there.  Moved threads are the least contentious think of the lot.  Nobody gets moderated for them, there is a link to where the thread has been moved to, and the moved thread shows up as being brand new giving it greater prominence in the new posts/threads sections of the forum, meaning that more people may read it rather than fewer :).

Quote
I was wondering if there was any chance of changing the dark green colour currently used in any moderator comments and edits to a bit more light green colour?
Your comment has been noted - oink

Unless I’m missing something this one request seemed enough to make you all change the Mod edit colour so I’m asking now for a return to the friendlier Mod edit that is shown in This post.

I think that you've linked to the wrong post at the end their Alienscar.  There are no edits of any kind present there.

No changes were made to the mod text following that request by Shadowbreed.  The changes to the moderator text occurred long before then.

Quote
Whilst looking for this post I discovered that complaints of over moderation and lack of forum activity go all the way back to 2006. I also found that Khodexus got banned. For me that is more evidence that overzealous application of the rules is to the detriment of this site. Even though he had committed thread necromancy this Forum lost an asset through rigid application of an arbitrary rule.

There are indeed complaints about moderation which go all the way back to even further than you say, all the way back until 2002 in fact.  Some complaints are about personal issues, some are about broader issues, some are even about the moderation being too weak or lax.  Some people will be happy, some will be unhappy, and some won't mind either way.  It has always been that way.

Here's one very old example asking for permissions to tightened to stop guests from flaming.
A Concern about lack of moderator intervention
A Discussion about lack of moderator presence

They're all quite old, but what's important to remember is that there was a lighter touch back when the forum started and the members wanted more moderator intervention and presence.  There were also complaints in later years about lack of moderator action too, but I can't link to those, as they're in a board you don't have permissions to view, so I ask you to take my word for that.

One thing where I do have to disagree with you is about Khodexus.  The specific reasons why he was banned are not public, so there's no way you can know why he was banned unless you know him in real life.  He certainly wasn't banned just for raising one thread from the dead if that's what you were thinking ;).
« Last Edit: January 7, 2014, 12:59:46 PM by Irisado »
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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #126 on: January 7, 2014, 11:35:47 AM »
Edit: It took me a while to find the Eldar Rumor Thread from before the old 4th edition Codex came out.  EldarOnline had loads of traffic, and Eldar was one of the most popular-but-neglected armies in the game, yearning for something other than the dilapidated 3rd Edition Codex of almost ten years before.  The thread was 339 pages long, care to guess how long the thread would be if it contained only rumors?

New Eldar Codex

So the mods insist that anything over 3 years is irrelevant and then dig up a 7 year old thread as an example...

But, traffic has waned so myself and others pushed to loosen the restrictions.  We now allow speculation threads, but those go in their respective forums.  Maybe we should allow the separate speculation thread to remain in the same forum?  Everyone is curious about the impending Tyranid release, for instance.  But rumor threads remain strictly for credible rumors since there are people who have been out of the loop that wish to quickly get abreast to the latest developments.

So if I have a rumour I post it in the Rumour and Speculation forum but there can be no speculation there. Instead I have to go to the respective forum and repost (Double post) the rumour (Wrong forum)?

On the Rumours board, those of you who've been around for a while might have noticed that its name changed last year during the forum reshuffle from Rumours to Rumours and Speculation.  The idea behind that was to allow all of you to give your opinions about the rumours, discuss their credibility, and give your opinion on the rumoured changes to your codices.

So which is it? Rumours and Speculation in the Rumours and Speculation forum or Rumours in the Rumours and Speculation forum and then the Speculation in  their respective forums?

Ok all the above really doesn't matter, but it's a reasonable example of the kind of thing that leaves people confused and open to making a mistake that then gets them moderate in some way and leaves them wondering why they bothered to start with. As for how it effects the image of the mod team... I'll leave you to sit back and draw your own conclusions.

I agree with what you're saying here.  It's a very good point.  I do believe that a lot of this is all about perception.  That also makes it incredibly difficult to solve in such a way that all sides participating in the discussion are happy with the outcome.

Yes and no... While it can be tricky to change somebodies view point if the only issue is one of perspective then there is also no underlying issue to resolve before progress can be made. The word "transparency" has been thrown up a lot and it's often linked to the coloured text boxes now used, to be honest that's not transparency, that's just making it obvious of what's been done rather than the thought process behind what was done.

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #127 on: January 7, 2014, 11:40:11 AM »
I normally wouldn't do this but i got 20 mins and im off from school today. Here is my list of proof that has been asked for. GML has stated that no mods would ban users for stating their opinions so without further ado here is my view on over moderation.Which ironically has to do with GML himself:

It started with this post:Here

It was a post with pictures of my IG army that were hot linked in from my dakka dakka photo account. A account that is meant to be used to show off work not only on the dakka dakka site but on blogs and elsewhere! Instead, what i got was a PM from GML on August 29th 2011 saying that a post that had been made 3 days earlier on August 26th 2011 was not allowed because of hot links and asked me to take my time to change them to a photo site such as Photobucket.

I have reviewed the 40k0 rules and did not see within the rules as of yesterday jan 6th 2013 anything concerning hotlinking in this post. I personally feel that GML found the post to be offensive due to it's linking off site to another 40k site. I cannot prove that but thats how it came off at the time. To add insult to injury he also spelt "Thanks" as Tanks.......a minor issue to be sure but something i felt was unneeded.

Let me stress: the post had no replies, was 2 pages down at the time, and had only 312 views (2 of those are mine today reading over it to write this post). It was harming nobody and dakka never said a word to me about anything concerning their bandwidth. You literally had to go searching for it in order to find it. I know i did when this issue first came to my attention two years ago.

My Second time was recently when GML moved my post concerning my hobby space from General 40k to the painting subforum. Yes i was talking about painting within the post but its main concern was the hobby room in which i was painting. Instead of gaining the replies in general 40k, it was shifted to the painting subforum where it died. Again, unneeded modding moving topics around to places where threads go to die.

If i seem emotional it is because i am. These issues have kept me off this site and i think as Underhand and Killing Time have stated will continue to keep me off this site.  What the site SORELY needs is the mods to sit down and look over each of the rules and write a new list for a new year and a changed forum. The rules are the problems. Not the mods, not the posters. When the site was booming you needed all these rules. Now we need to change with the times. Your facing competition from facebook, myspace, untold number of blogs and sites. Unless you all are willing to admit that change is needed, this site will die....


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Offline Irisado

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #128 on: January 7, 2014, 11:46:56 AM »
So which is it? Rumours and Speculation in the Rumours and Speculation forum or Rumours in the Rumours and Speculation forum and then the Speculation in  their respective forums?

Ok all the above really doesn't matter, but it's a reasonable example of the kind of thing that leaves people confused and open to making a mistake that then gets them moderate in some way and leaves them wondering why they bothered to start with. As for how it effects the image of the mod team... I'll leave you to sit back and draw your own conclusions.

No, it does matter, and there's no problem with your raising it.  This issue of what to do about Rumours and Speculation as a board and how to update the stickies, so that you all know what can be posted there, is currently being discussed by the Staff.  As soon as we have an answer, the stickies in that board will be updated, so that it's clear to everyone what the board is for.
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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #129 on: January 7, 2014, 12:45:48 PM »
I normally wouldn't do this but i got 20 mins and im off from school today. Here is my list of proof that has been asked for. GML has stated that no mods would ban users for stating their opinions so without further ado here is my view on over moderation.Which ironically has to do with GML himself:

It started with this post:Here

It was a post with pictures of my IG army that were hot linked in from my dakka dakka photo account. A account that is meant to be used to show off work not only on the dakka dakka site but on blogs and elsewhere! Instead, what i got was a PM from GML on August 29th 2011 saying that a post that had been made 3 days earlier on August 26th 2011 was not allowed because of hot links and asked me to take my time to change them to a photo site such as Photobucket.

I have reviewed the 40k0 rules and did not see within the rules as of yesterday jan 6th 2013 anything concerning hotlinking in this post. I personally feel that GML found the post to be offensive due to it's linking off site to another 40k site. I cannot prove that but thats how it came off at the time. To add insult to injury he also spelt "Thanks" as Tanks.......a minor issue to be sure but something i felt was unneeded.

Let me stress: the post had no replies, was 2 pages down at the time, and had only 312 views (2 of those are mine today reading over it to write this post). It was harming nobody and dakka never said a word to me about anything concerning their bandwidth. You literally had to go searching for it in order to find it. I know i did when this issue first came to my attention two years ago.
I do remember this happening and let me clarify something for you.  The first part being that I spend very little time in the painting boards, usually just popping in to post my own work and then checking to see if I have received any comments on them.

What happened in this instance was that the user that had been told, by another moderator, to move their images to a photo hosting site because hot linking is considered a faux pas amongst administrators as anyone viewing the image is taking from their band width which they do pay money for.  It isn't so much of a rule as it is a courtesy to other sites.  I know personally I have never pointed someone for hot linking, I always just sent them a message asking them to change to a site dedicated to hosting images. 

The reason you got a message from me, is because I got a message from that user as I was the only moderator that was online at the time.  He was the one who went digging to find your thread and his message to me was one of those wonderful ones that are along the lines of "Why did I get told to change and this post didn't?"

There was nothing personal about it, nor did I have any dislike for your thread because you were hosting the images elsewhere.  I asked you to change the images to a photo hosting site because that is what we have done for everyone.  If it hadn't been pointed out, you wouldn't have gotten a message.

Also, how is a clear typo insulting?

My Second time was recently when GML moved my post concerning my hobby space from General 40k to the painting subforum. Yes i was talking about painting within the post but its main concern was the hobby room in which i was painting. Instead of gaining the replies in general 40k, it was shifted to the painting subforum where it died. Again, unneeded modding moving topics around to places where threads go to die.
As Irisado mentioned before, if we follow the logic of not moving threads that belong in other sections of the boards, then we shouldn't have sub boards at all and all discussions should take place in one board.

Your thread was moved because it had to do with painting and did not pertain to Warhammer 40,000.  My view on this as with all things is consistency.  If I don't move your thread from Gen40k to painting where it belongs, and a couple of weeks later I move a thread from Gen40k to Background because it is asking about the hair colour of the Primarchs, that user is going to be-atch and whine that I took action against their thread while leaving your alone.

If you want to argue that this doesn't happen, I refer you to your first grievance where I messaged you for exactly that reason.

If i seem emotional it is because i am. These issues have kept me off this site and i think as Underhand and Killing Time have stated will continue to keep me off this site.  What the site SORELY needs is the mods to sit down and look over each of the rules and write a new list for a new year and a changed forum. The rules are the problems. Not the mods, not the posters. When the site was booming you needed all these rules. Now we need to change with the times. Your facing competition from facebook, myspace, untold number of blogs and sites. Unless you all are willing to admit that change is needed, this site will die....
As I have the day off from work today, I do have the rules up in a word doc and I am going through making adjustments which I will present to the staff at a later date for their final approval.
« Last Edit: January 7, 2014, 02:00:45 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
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Offline Alienscar

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #130 on: January 7, 2014, 02:15:52 PM »


Quote
I was wondering if there was any chance of changing the dark green colour currently used in any moderator comments and edits to a bit more light green colour?
Your comment has been noted - oink

Unless I’m missing something this one request seemed enough to make you all change the Mod edit colour so I’m asking now for a return to the friendlier Mod edit that is shown in This post.

I think that you've linked to the wrong post at the end their Alienscar.  There are no edits of any kind present there.

I haven't got time to reply to every thing you have said as I am off to work soon. But as a quick response I haven't linked to the wrong post. The edit in question is were Silky has had his post edited by Rasmus for serial posting (3rd response down). As you have just proved it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb.
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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #131 on: January 7, 2014, 02:24:29 PM »
As I have the day off from work today, I do have the rules up in a word doc and I am going through making adjustments which I will present to the staff at a later date for their final approval.

Thanks. Genuinely.

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #132 on: January 7, 2014, 03:27:49 PM »
I haven't got time to reply to every thing you have said as I am off to work soon. But as a quick response I haven't linked to the wrong post. The edit in question is were Silky has had his post edited by Rasmus for serial posting (3rd response down). As you have just proved it doesn't stand out like a sore thumb.

You mean Rasmus' reply further up?  I see it now, but the fact that I didn't see it the first time kind of hints at the problem that old style edits weren't distinctive enough from the standard text, so members of the forum didn't always see them, and didn't, therefore, realise that they had broken any forum rules.
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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #133 on: January 7, 2014, 04:06:03 PM »
Swampy: Hotlinking is not specific to this site, it's just bad manners in general.  There are rare exceptions like MarriedToTheSea that at one time encouraged hotlinking, but for most sites it is leeching bandwidth without providing them any clicks, views, or ad revenue- it hurts!  That you linked to your own server was a misunderstanding on our part, and if such a misunderstanding occurs against please use the Report To Moderator button on your own post, or specifically message a staff member, in order to notify us of the error.

That the other topic about painting died in the painting sub forum is a problem of traffic.  I just checked General 40k to get its pulse and there are currently three active threads.  Considering this, merging the Painting Forum and General 40k may be a suitable adjustment.  This website started out as EldarOnline, exclusively for Eldar armies.  As traffic boomed, specialized forums were set up, getting more niche in interest as demand and traffic allowed.  We have already shut down, merged, or repurposed numerous child boards, having General 40k be about every aspect of the game- painting, smelly shops, dice rolls, conversions, assembling issues, and so on, may be the ticket.

(Added reference numbers for ease of reading and to avoid multiple quote blocks)
1. So the mods insist that anything over 3 years is irrelevant and then dig up a 7 year old thread as an example...

2. So if I have a rumour I post it in the Rumour and Speculation forum but there can be no speculation there. Instead I have to go to the respective forum and repost (Double post) the rumour (Wrong forum)?
So which is it? Rumours and Speculation in the Rumours and Speculation forum or Rumours in the Rumours and Speculation forum and then the Speculation in  their respective forums?

Ok all the above really doesn't matter, but it's a reasonable example of the kind of thing that leaves people confused and open to making a mistake that then gets them moderate in some way and leaves them wondering why they bothered to start with. As for how it effects the image of the mod team... I'll leave you to sit back and draw your own conclusions.

3. Yes and no... While it can be tricky to change somebodies view point if the only issue is one of perspective then there is also no underlying issue to resolve before progress can be made. The word "transparency" has been thrown up a lot and it's often linked to the coloured text boxes now used, to be honest that's not transparency, that's just making it obvious of what's been done rather than the thought process behind what was done.

1. There's a difference between changing policies for changing times, and providing an example of what a rumor thread looks like when it's not regulated.  ;)

2. They would be two different threads with two different topics.  What comes to mind is that one thread is sufficient, but a staff member, project contributor, or otherwise may edit the first reply of the topic to update it with credible rumors, the banter can carry on organically below.  This would require work, though, and would interrupt my busy napping schedule.

Learning the rules of any forum is a learning process, leaving notes is often intended to be instructive rather than punitive (and why I have encouraged all staff members to link directly to the rules every time!).  The guidelines for a given subforum should be simple, though, and not conflict with the traffic level at a given time, hence why I find the above solution agreeable.
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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #134 on: January 7, 2014, 08:05:02 PM »
@ Alienscar: I appreciate the kudos, but really can't take much credit. I like the sound of my own voice, and with other people being so quiet it's natural that I'd take the opportunity to exercise my lungs. It's the quiet by nature folks that have been posting this past year that deserve the credit. It's tough to stand out... or so I'm told. I've never noticed.

To which: Although I'd sought policy change [Humiliating failure!] it looks like the fuss has stirred up some activity, which is nice. Consolation Prize! Keep up the good work folks. I'm in the enviable position of being in a win-win situation. Either I get to say, "I told you so!" or the site picks up and becomes vibrant again. I suppose that just this once, I wouldn't mind being wrong. ;)

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #135 on: January 8, 2014, 03:36:44 AM »
To which: Although I'd sought policy change [Humiliating failure!]

Let's see what the new rules look like before you concede total defeat just yet....

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #136 on: January 8, 2014, 09:33:33 AM »
As I have the day off from work today, I do have the rules up in a word doc and I am going through making adjustments which I will present to the staff at a later date for their final approval.

Thanks. Genuinely.

I second this. Thanks GML

To which: Although I'd sought policy change [Humiliating failure!]

Let's see what the new rules look like before you concede total defeat just yet....

As things do indeed seem to be changing I won't bother to respond to Irisado's earlier post as it seems a bit redundant now.

So I am just wondering, as the Mods seem to be in a listening mood, can another happy outcome of this thread be that GreatBigTree gets a custom title of "consolation prize"?


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Offline Grand Master Lomandalis

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #137 on: January 12, 2014, 07:37:59 PM »
As I have the day off from work today, I do have the rules up in a word doc and I am going through making adjustments which I will present to the staff at a later date for their final approval.

Thanks. Genuinely.

I second this. Thanks GML
As promised, the updated forum rules can be found here.
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
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"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #138 on: January 12, 2014, 08:54:20 PM »
Just to be clear, the new rules are the same as the old rules, with two additions to section 4, and the specification that "I agree" and "Nice" are explicitly described as being spam.

In response to being accused of over moderating, the moderating team has added two more rules, and entrenched the idea that one line, positive reinforcement is prohibited.

Sometimes, the jokes write themselves. I stand by my admission of humiliating failure. :D

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Re: Over-moderation killing forum appeal?
« Reply #139 on: January 12, 2014, 09:21:45 PM »
I am so glad that you have taken the time to read and compare all of the rules to see where the differences lie.  Instead of making claims that the rules are the same, perhaps you should read them closely?  If it helps, here is exactly how I formatted the post to point out the changes that were made to the rules.

Quote
[gmod]Revisions made in blue[/gmod]

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The version of the 40kOnline rules used until April 15, 2012 is here.

So now that you can easily see where the changes to the rules were made, allow me to elaborate on what has occured.

1)  We have relaxed our stance on copyright infringement and made it more clear as to what is allowed and what is not.  By making what is permitted more clear, a moderator will step in less often to deal with copyright issues if people read our forum rules.

2)  Spam has been clarified to show what is not permitted.  The part about one liners that seems to bug you is that it mentions that one liners are not encouraged, yet they can still contribute to the conversation.

3)  Added flamebaiting to the forum rules so they are in print and easy to find, where as before they were hidden in the rules forum or simply implied.

4)  Necromancy rules were relaxed.  Prior to this change, if a thread has not had a post for two weeks or longer, it was to be left alone.  Now the time scale has been extended.  One month or no longer on the front page for the more active boards.  Simply off the front page for the boards that are far less active.

5)  Double posting rules have been clarified and relaxed.  Previously, any double posting except in rare occurances were violations of the rules. 

6)  Clarified off topic discussion.  Also provided example as to how to avoid moderation.

7)  Added rule regarding hotlinking images, something that has been enforced but was not previously in writing.

8.)  Relaxed rules for advertisements.

9)  Clarified where posts are to go as well as how improperly located threads will be dealt with.

As for your claim that we are entrenching the idea that "one line, positive reinforcement" is prohibited, you are mistaken.  One line replies, while not encouraged are permitted.  One word responses that add nothing to the discussion are not allowed.

If someone were to post a thread for a model they painted, is it really to much to ask for people to say "Nice, I love the way you did X" as opposed to "Nice model"?

So we answered the cries of over moderation by the community, we have relaxed the rules that received the most complaints.

At no time did we ever say that we were going to remove any of the rules.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 09:46:13 PM by Grand Master Lomandalis »
If there is anything that recent politics has taught us, it is that quotes taken out of context can mean what ever you want them to.
Well I always liked the globals...
I knew I had fans!!!

Quote
"Dark Angels are Traitors" is the 40k equivalent of Flat Earthers.  You can provide all of the proof you want that says otherwise, but people just can't let it go...

 


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