Topic: Eighth Edition News

[Wyddr]

From the rumors I've seen, the charging unit strikes first (so, Wyches in most cases) and the Wyches get to shoot their pistols in combat *too,* which might mitigate their problems wounding high-T targets a bit.

But yeah, we have no idea even what the Wych statline will be, so getting worried is perhaps a bit premature.

Along with these general rules, we have to also assume all of the units in every codex are, on some level, getting a bit re-balanced to reflect the new play environment. Who knows--maybe grenades will get better? Maybe Wych Weapons will make a comeback. Maybe combat drugs will be superior. Just too many variables.

[Dread]

I want to be excited. I should be excited. I'm not because I dislike AoS and am more scared I'm losing both of my favorite games to badly streamlined rules. Please, please let me be wrong. Now fixing my wyches just might get me excited about it as well as my 60 some odd hellions.

[Katamari Damacy]

Really bummed with the Charge Phase. Always hated random charge distance and Overwatch hurt my Quins so bad, I just never returned to them. 

Being able to use Overwatch more than once per turn/unit is just hilarious.

Harlequins didn't exist before random charge distances. Also, it's pretty awesome for Harlequins as they have fleet. Odds of getting 8+" charges is pretty high.

I've been doing pretty well with Harlequins in tournaments, Overwatch and random charges are not bad.

Also, multiple Overwatch is only going to happen if the first unit charging fails their charge. 90% of the time, it won't make any difference.

It seems I misunderstood how that Overwatch thing is going to work. My bad.

Still not a fan of the 2d6 charge though - I would have guessed that with the reintrocduction of a Move value, we could go back to something less random. Anyways, thats not going to happen unless GW decides to listen to all the unhappy players voicing their dislike for random charge distances.

I realize that Quins haven't been around for long (I wasn't talking bout 2nd ) and yes, that's how it's always been for them. It just drove me mad to lose more models to Overwatch than actual shooting. 2d6 and Overwatch always felt like it's based on luck. I have no problem losing units and games because of my bad decisions but with my Harlies, it always felt like losing to random rolls, which made me really angry . I mean, we all lost that game where you rolled 5 instead of 7 which would have resulted in a glorious vitory. Things like that just should not happen in my view.

Still, I don't think all is doom and gloom but that latest bit info was rather disappointing to a lot of people it seems.

[Lord of Winter and War]

I like 2d6 charges. It helps assault-based armies a lot, as you can potentially make some pretty crazy charge distances. Harlequins (with fleet and ignoring terrain), are probably the best at making the long charges. I've made a silly amount of 10+" charges due to fleet. I would hate for a fixed charge distance, as then with pre-measuring it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Move based charge distances would be insane, as units with a 12" move can then move 12 and charge 12 (or 12+d6). which would be insane. A unit moving between 12-28" reliably would be bonkers

Overwatch helps both sides. I've had overwatch work for me, and it's easy to manipulate as well. Charge in with a tougher unit first (to soak the overwatch), or with an expendable character, to keep squad's safer.

I've played, and won against armies like Eldar and Tau, overwatch can hurt, but it's not a big deal. I've had my own shooting save my bacon as well.

*Shrug*

The only time I'm afraid of overwatch, is when fighting Dark Angels Lions Blade, or flamers. But, as both of those will be changing, I don't know what to expect in the future.

My biggest wonder about 8th edition, is if we'll see pirovores on the table for the first time!

[Wyddr]

My biggest wonder about 8th edition, is if we'll see pirovores on the table for the first time!

Oh, yes! I really hope this edition saves Tyranids somehow. I think the elimination of AV helps in that regard a LOT, but we'll see.

[Fenris]

And the decline of the melee continues, now you can't even start fighting in all of your successful charges:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Fight Phase – Warhammer Community
The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.

[Alienscar]

1) The unit may fall back, allowing the rest of his army to shred my girls
2) he stays in combat, but in the shooting phase the unit I am locked with shoots up my girls

Man the rules haven't even been properly released yet and it looks like I don't fully understand them.

Pistols: When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition. However, you can fall back from combat in your Movement phase, allowing other units to fire at your opponent at the expense of your own actions this turn.

The way I read this is (underlined for emphasis) that if you stay locked in combat your unit is safe from shooting.

[Lord of Winter and War]

I'm goning to say again, that there are three things we don't know yet.

1. The core rules
2. Data sheet rules for units
3. Points for units

Without all three things, it's impossible to guess the balance of the game. We are going to need to wait until the game is released, before we know anyway.

Until then, I think it's great get is teasing us with some of the changes, instead of keeping us in the dark.

However, I wish they didn't, as it's causing a lot of unnecessary panic.

[Irisado]

The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.

Horde armies won't necessarily gain an advantage from those rules, unless the models involved are also very good in close combat.  This system is clearly based on Age of Sigmar, and having a large horde fighting close combat specialists didn't work out well for me there, so a I would urge caution before championing the rise of horde armies at this stage.

[Katamari Damacy]

But am I the only one who read through that article wondering what exactly they are saying? I guess that "activation" thing is from AoS and I have a vague idea how it might work. I would have hoped for more info for the amount of words they used though  Looking forward to see how exactly this will work within the context of the full rules.


Killersquid, I appreciate your view on things, makes me reconsider my own. I see how using the M stat for charging would cause problems. I guess the bottom line is "I don't like random things" and would have preferred even a flat 6 or so inches instead of 2d6 (where 7-8 inches is the average distance rolled). Guess I'll just have to field my clowns more often; I lost about 12 out of 15 games with them vs. low tier armies, that I easily beat with both CWE and Deldar.

[Lord of Winter and War]

But am I the only one who read through that article wondering what exactly they are saying? I guess that "activation" thing is from AoS and I have a vague idea how it might work. I would have hoped for more info for the amount of words they used though  Looking forward to see how exactly this will work within the context of the full rules.

Combat will end up working like this.

Let say 3 units charge.

All three of those units strike first, in whichever combats they are in (owning players choice). After that, players alternate activating units to attack, in whichever combats they are in, untill all units attack.

This is how it works in aos,besides charging gong first. It's actually really engaging way to do combats, and quite tactical. It's one of my favourite mechanics in aos.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

And the decline of the melee continues, now you can't even start fighting in all of your successful charges:

What?  I'm not sure we read the same article, because they make it very clear that charging units strike first, and then once you have resolved your charges you then move on to alternating activation.

The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.

It's a boon for all assault armies that rely on units that are larger than a few models.  A 10 man unit can engage multiple units if positioned correctly, while only getting hit by one overwatch.  This part is pretty much dictating that position is back to being vital to success in the game.  You want to bubblewrap an important unit?  You need to take into consideration the possible charge distance of the enemy plus the consolidation to ensure they don't make it to engage what you're trying to protect.

You guys are complaining about units voluntarily leaving combat to leave your assault units hanging in the wind.  One unit being left useless, I can understand the frustration.  What about three units that leave combat that are doing nothing for the turn?  It's not likely, but it certainly is possible with a 10 man squad.

[Alienscar]

It's a boon for all assault armies that rely on units that are larger than a few models.  A 10 man unit can engage multiple units if positioned correctly, while only getting hit by one overwatch.

One overwatch? Is this another rule I have misunderstood!

You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.

[Lord of Winter and War]

You charge one unit, but with your 3" pile in move when you activate to attack, you can move into other units within 3".

[Fenris]

@Killersquid: Sorry if I sound too negative, while my main army (Eldar) does not rely on melee, I'd like to start using some of the units that are currently collecting dust like howling banshees, which has been nerfed every edition since 4th, in which they were balanced but were probably too good against MEQ, so many complained, and GW listened to those complains.

About activation, if it's a set number of units to strike first for the player who's current turn it is, it doesn't scale very well when using either small or large armies.

@GML: a 10 man unit can certainly lock up 3 units, but a 30 man unit is going to have a much easier time to do just that. Not to mention a blob of 50.
Since grots, gaunts and conscripts are essentially cannon fodder, allowing them to lock up 2 or more shooty units is gold worth, and worst case scenario, the opponent will just back off and will sooner or later run out of space to withdraw to.
Say 30 grots charge into a unit of assaultmarines, but at the same time locking up 2 units of 5 tactical marines, with the 3" pile in move. Now they are going to be a fleshwall much longer than if shot at by the tactical marines. With a unit of 5 terminators it's much harder to achieve.
Locking up 3 units also makes it less plausible that those marines and assault marines will leave combat, because winning the combat might be more profitable, that will always be a tough tactical decision.

@Irisado: While I do not know the rules of AoS, but from what I've heard of them it seems like 40k is getting a lot of them. As for the elite CC units beating the hordes I hope that moves over to 40k as well. However I think it' a bit more complex than elite or horde units. Fragile elite units will likely suffer from the new rules (like banshees) while more sturdy (like khorne berzerkers) will prevail, not only because they are sturdy, but they are also focused on making several attacks, comparred to assault terminators for example.


@Everyone: Where I don't have the new rules I will fill in the gaps with the current rules, as the announced ruleschanges are probably the biggest changes. So don't just read my words out of context, because it's not that doomy & gloomy.
I am happy that we will get a new edition and a shake up of the balance, but there are sadly several missed opportunities for GW that I'm pointing out, and some things that changed in the opposite direction of what I was hoping for.
I'm also worried about how the (wound+toughness+armour)/squareinch footprint is going to work out in the new edition.
I think guardsmen in chimeras might have a quite high value in that department, which seems to be a more and more important thing. Combine that with lots of shooting and cannon fodder units, thats the reason I think IG/AM will do well in this edition. I wouldn't be surprised if rhinorush returns as well. ATM we will just have to wait and see.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

One overwatch? Is this another rule I have misunderstood!

From the Fight Phase article:

This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch).

About activation, if it's a set number of units to strike first for the player who's current turn it is, it doesn't scale very well when using either small or large armies.

I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this.  How does "charging units strike first" not scale well to small or large armies?

@GML: a 10 man unit can certainly lock up 3 units, but a 30 man unit is going to have a much easier time to do just that. Not to mention a blob of 50.
Since grots, gaunts and conscripts are essentially cannon fodder, allowing them to lock up 2 or more shooty units is gold worth, and worst case scenario, the opponent will just back off and will sooner or later run out of space to withdraw to.
Say 30 grots charge into a unit of assaultmarines, but at the same time locking up 2 units of 5 tactical marines, with the 3" pile in move. Now they are going to be a fleshwall much longer than if shot at by the tactical marines. With a unit of 5 terminators it's much harder to achieve.
Locking up 3 units also makes it less plausible that those marines and assault marines will leave combat, because winning the combat might be more profitable, that will always be a tough tactical decision.

I wasn't disagreeing that it would help horde armies.  They absolutely need the boost right now, because even the Green Tide needs a boost.  I'm just saying that it will benefit all assault forces now, as well.

@Everyone: Where I don't have the new rules I will fill in the gaps with the current rules, as the announced ruleschanges are probably the biggest changes. So don't just read my words out of context, because it's not that doomy & gloomy.

I think that is the biggest issue you are having.  You are trying to apply the rules of today to fill the gaps of a system that is entirely different.  That would be akin to applying the rules of 40k to fill in the gaps of your knowledge for X-wing.  It just doesn't work.

I'm also worried about how the (wound+toughness+armour)/squareinch footprint is going to work out in the new edition.
I think guardsmen in chimeras might have a quite high value in that department, which seems to be a more and more important thing. Combine that with lots of shooting and cannon fodder units, thats the reason I think IG/AM will do well in this edition. I wouldn't be surprised if rhinorush returns as well. ATM we will just have to wait and see.

Has that ever been a concern?  Guard have always excelled then, by that matrix, but you rarely see Guard in a competitive environment now.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

The biggest thing to me is these specialty weapons and how they will effect combat. I, and many others, foresee shard nets stopping your opponent from leaving combat.

Also, I am curious.... when getting the 3" pile in move, is says you have to move towards the closest enemy unit... can you ignore the one you just charged or is the idea that in the process of charging the unit you can position yourself to take advantage of that..


Say you move to within 3" of a tac squad... and 10" behind that is a dev squad. My girls roll for a 10" charge... could I move past the tac squad, engaging with one model, and within 3" of the Dev .. then in the activation phase make up the rest of that distance!

If I am reading that right, that is pretty big. I have always felt that positioning should be key to winning the game, and this may help bring that back. Makes CC a challenging and potentially very rewarding aspect of the game again

[magenb]

Also, I am curious.... when getting the 3" pile in move, is says you have to move towards the closest enemy unit... can you ignore the one you just charged or is the idea that in the process of charging the unit you can position yourself to take advantage of that..


Say you move to within 3" of a tac squad... and 10" behind that is a dev squad. My girls roll for a 10" charge... could I move past the tac squad, engaging with one model, and within 3" of the Dev .. then in the activation phase make up the rest of that distance!

If I am reading that right, that is pretty big. I have always felt that positioning should be key to winning the game, and this may help bring that back. Makes CC a challenging and potentially very rewarding aspect of the game again

No, as you called the tac squad as your charge option.

You also only get the pile in move on activation, so if you charged the tac squad and a Dev squad was 2 inches to the left or right, you could spill over into them. I would also imagine, there will be a restriction that those already engaged (what would have been base to base contact) wouldn't be able to move, so the 3 inches would be calculated from the sides or rear models in the unit.

The charging unit always striking first is also dumb, completely illogical. It would have made more sense that the subsequent combat turns be resolved at the same time. As is, the only reason to stay in combat is if you need the first power to kill something else first, other wise, fall back and drill the unit.

I'll reserve judgement until I see the weapon effects, but really its looking like Tau players should be jumping for joy at the moment.




Charging unit always going first is just dumb. It just encourages the unit to flee and let the other gun drill them. At the moment, Melee is just sacrificing a unit to slow your opponent down and soaking up fire, the Melee weapons effects might change that a bit.


if melee weapons turn out to be awesome, then Necros will be cheering, no more hitting last lol

[Katamari Damacy]

Info on Morale is up! New Warhammer 40,000 – Morale – Warhammer Community

And it looks very promising in my view! Lets say a squad of 10 Tac Marines loses 3 models in a turn, they would roll a d6, add those 3 losses and then remove more models, depending on the roll. Since we know that Marines have Ld7, they would then remove another 2 models in case they roll a 6, right? Really looking forward to see what certain units get for LD value. Especially with expensive and/or fragile units. Will also be interesting to see how this works with larger Mobs of Orks and Nids.

And of course this will be very interesting when it comes to ICs and how they affect the units around them.

Does this mechanic work well in AoS? Could some of you AoS players give a little insight please?

[Irisado]

I'm not a massive fan of this morale system, but it has the vital merit of being simple and I'd argue that it's better suited to 40K than to Age of Sigmar.  It was too much of a departure from the Fantasy system of ranks and formations acting as a whole, but for 40K where squads have always adopted a loose formation it is, in my opinion, likely to be more successful.