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Author Topic: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.  (Read 34186 times)

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Offline Shas'Oink

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #100 on: February 6, 2010, 09:05:16 AM »
Although confusingly the quoted passage seems to refer only to "entire" publications...


As with all intellectual property, if action is taken, then courts look at four main areas to decide if the use is deemed "fair use".

The character of your use
The nature of the original work
The amount of the original work that you appropriate for your use
The effect of your use on the market for the original work



If you go by these four sections, one would "assume" that referring to, or quoting specific passages for the purposes of a discussion could be deemed fair use. (and certainly not unfair use!) The character in this instance was a discussion, about the rules for a social game (nature of work). The only elements copied where those required for the discussion (amount). The effect on the market "for the original work" is debateable... one could argue that all participants already own the original work...

of course, for a site, this means something different... whilst one conversation might be considered fair use - lots of conversations can be pieced together to effectively build up a whole rulebook!

Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #101 on: February 7, 2010, 02:55:14 AM »
Additionally (and this is important) this is NOT about whether or not we would win at court.  Its about whether what we do might tick GW off.

After all, we tick of GW - they either threaten to sue the site owner, or threaten to sue the ISP.  Neither thinks it worth taking it to court and spending 10s of thousands of dollars.  Site closes.

Whether or not 40K online was legally in the right, everybody loses.  Let's try to avoid that, why don't we.  Unlesss you are guaranteeing (and are good for $100K+) to personally foot its legal bills if GW comes a calling.

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #102 on: February 7, 2010, 08:35:03 AM »
Again - all the more reason to ask for a clarification from their legal department.

Not really. There's no need. We have a policy that works, and see no reason to change that policy. Keeping all illicit material cleared off the site is also far easier than understanding from a legal perspective exactly what is and is not above board, and selectively removing all the stuff that isn't okay while leaving the stuff that is. We're not going to be asking for clarification, as we don't see the need to.
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Offline Underhand

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #103 on: February 16, 2010, 04:12:47 PM »
GW were kind enough to reply to my email:

Quote
Sirs,
 
I am a member of a well known internet forum - www.40konline.com.
 
The forum deals almost entirely with the Games Workshop hobby, with a particular focus on Warhammer 40,000.
 
Much of the activity on the forum has to do with in depth discussion and debate relating to tactics and rules.  As such, in order to communicate with clarity and precision, it is often necessary to quote statistics and rules.  There is some concern from some members of the forum that quoting rules or statistics would be against GW's IP Protection Policy.
 
I am writing to your office to seek clarification of the extent of GW's IP Protection Policy.  Obviously, there is no question that scanning pages of books, or copying great slabs of text would be innapropriate.  Such behaviour would never be tolerated by the administrators of 40konline.com, but there is uncertainty as to referencing statistics and rules in general discussion relating to tactics and rules interpretation.  A theoretical example might be:
 
Smith:  I am of the opinion that the most effective fit out for Armoured Sentinels is Plasma Cannons.  I have 3 of them in my army.  The S7 AP2 Plasma Cannon is perfect for killing Space Marines and Monstrous Creatures.  The AV12 front armour also makes it invulnerable to any S5 weapons from the front, meaning that most infantry won't be able to hurt it.  At 215 points, I think they are one of the best value purchases available to the Imperial Guard.  What does everyone else think?
 
Jones:  I disagree. For 190 points, you could pick a Leman Russ Executioner, which fires 3 plasma cannon shots per turn, which is equal to the Armoured Sentinels.  Additionally, an Executioner has AV14/13/11, making it significantly more durable than Armoured Sentinels, and invulnerable to anything weaker than S8 - so autocannons can't hurt it.  Also, for an extra 40 points, you could purchase Plasma Sponsons which would allow you to fire 5 Plasma Cannon blasts per turn, or 4 shots while moving at combat speed, because the Lumbering Behemoth rule states:  "A Leman Russ that moved at combat speed or remained stationary can fire its turret weapon in addition to any other weapon it is usually allowed to fire (even if the turret weapon is ordnance!)"
 
Such debates often go on for many pages and often come down to some sort of incredibly detailed discussion of the superiority or inferiority of a particular troop type or tactic based on statistical and mathematical probabilities of dice rolling.  It is somewhat embarrassing to admit, but deep analysis and discussion of the merits of different troop types at a statistical level is part of what I, and many others enjoy about the hobby, and it is difficult to to do without quoting small sections of specific rules or statistics from the rulebooks and codices. 
 
I would greatly appreciate if you would be able to confirm whether such a discussion is in breach of Games Workshops IP Protection Policy, and if so, whether such a breach would be considered merely trivial and of no concern to GW, or if it would be considered a serious infringement requiring immediate removal.
 
Your guidance on this matter would be greatly appreciated by me and many others.
 
 
Kind Regards,

Their reply:

Quote
Dear Sir,

Thank you for your email.

 Our view is that the discussion of tactics and rules is an important part of the hobby and something that should be encouraged.  However, as you may be aware, we need to balance this with protecting our intellectual property rights.  The result of this is that provided that the discussion on www.40konline.com is of the nature you describe below, we are unlikely to have any issues.

 This said, we urge you to use your discretion when quoting or making reference to our rules and statistics. If you are simply referencing comments and opinions to rules, or using statistics to support your arguments, then we see will view this as an inevitable and non-problematic consequence of encouraging hobby activity.  However, at the opposite end of the spectrum we will take action should we find people copying vast amounts text or images.

 Hopefully, this will provide an insight as to Games Workshop is likely to react to discussions of the hobby on www.40konline.com.  Additionally, you may also find it useful to read our intellectual property policy (http://legal.games-workshop.com/) which will provide further guidance to both the letter and spirit of the way in which we will deal with people using our intellectual property.

 Yours faithfully

Group Legal Department
Games Workshop Group PLC

So there you go - looks like GW are much cooler than some people paint them.

I'm happy to forward the actual email directly to any of the admins.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #104 on: February 16, 2010, 04:32:38 PM »
Given their answer I can see no reason to alter our current policy. Especially not given their past action on this matter. The whole "This said, we urge you to use your discretion when quoting or making reference to our rules and statistics." ends up with it being a judgment-call, and the policy we have is a safety-bet we are making to continue this Community.
Thanks for taking the time to write to them.

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Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #105 on: February 26, 2010, 01:40:59 AM »
Question about rules concerning PDF files that are available on the GW site. I have just noticed that the new FAQ for the BRB (updated Feb 25th, 2010), which doesn't seem to be much different than the old FAQ, now allows copying and pasting of text present within the PDF file. Since these are available for free, and the ability to copy and paste has been added to the PDF, is it alright to post a copied section (eg, a specific question that was asked on the forum, which closely resembles a question that was asked in the PDF)?
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #106 on: February 26, 2010, 02:21:41 AM »
Nope.

And again, just because GW is giving it away does not give you the right to do the same. They own it and can do what they want with it - you don't, so you can't. Link the PDF and refer to the line, but no copy/paste with "this is free from GW".

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Offline Disciple of Nagash: GT

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #107 on: February 26, 2010, 10:11:32 AM »
Alright, like I said, just curious as prior to the update, it specifically didn't allow you to copy any text but now it does.
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Offline Dr_Ruminahui

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Re: Regarding Illegal / Copyright material :: Codexes, BBB, etc.
« Reply #108 on: February 26, 2010, 01:15:53 PM »
The problem is that:

1.  We don't know if that's a change in their legal approach, or why that occured; and

2.  Even if it is a change, GW is always free to change its mind, and which point it COULD ask us to remove all cited portions, and we have no real way to hunt down and find all such quotations.

Best to play it safe, don't you think?  Is it really so onerous to simply say, "FAQ, page 2, second bullet from bottom"?

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