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Main => General 40k => Topic started by: Irisado on April 22, 2017, 10:08:36 AM

Title: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 22, 2017, 10:08:36 AM
https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf (https://warhammer40000.gw-hub.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/04/New-Edition-of-40K-FAQ.pdf)

It seems as though the new edition is going to be something of a compromise between Age of Sigmar and 40K.  I certainly like the idea of free rules, as the cost of the recent rulebooks has been a major disincentive for me to get back into 40K, however, I am disappointed that it still seems to be the case that all the inappropriate scale units are going to still be allowed in the regular game, which will continue to be a barrier to me.

Feel free to use this topic to discuss the FAQ and the changes that GW are previewing, but please keep all wishlisting in the wishlisting topic (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=230170.0).  That caveat having been made, what do you all think of the information that has been released so far?  Will eighth edition be an improvement?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 22, 2017, 10:49:36 AM
That FAQ is the most encouraging thing I've seen GW do...well..ever. Seriously, they've never been this open, straightforward, and apparently cognizant of how edition changes freak people out. I love that this thing exists.

I am, on balance, very positive on the changes implied. I like the idea of streamlined play, I like the "3 ways" thing, and, though I like codexes, am encouraged that there will be a way to get the rules for a whole faction cheaply. I am glad they don't seem to be wholly "sigmarizing" play.

And if it means I can get more people to play with me, all the better. 7th saw the near extinction of 40k in these parts; hopefully 8th revitalizes the community or even just my own gaming group.

...however, I am disappointed that it still seems to be the case that all the inappropriate scale units are going to still be allowed in the regular game, which will continue to be a barrier to me.

Dude, you know I love you, but you have GOT to get over this. Nobody is making you play with superheavies or flyers if you don't want to. Hell, flyers are relatively rare these days (compared with 6th) and Superheavies are easy to remove via a gentleman's agreement. Play, man. Do it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 22, 2017, 01:09:27 PM
I agree that it doesn't compel me to play with superheavies and the like.  It just makes life difficult if the rules still allow them to be fielded, as I don't like to ask people not to choose units because they don't fit with my vision of the game and I don't want to play against them.

Getting back to the FAQ, I think that it's a very positive move by GW to release this information in advance.  I also agree that it's a very encouraging step and I do like a lot of the ideas that are contained within it.  I hope that this preview information will prevent some of the overreactions that are typically seen with the release of a new edition.

Despite my issue with superheavies et al., I am heartened with what I'm reading compared to leaks about seventh edition a few years back.  There seems to be a more pragmatic approach being taken this time around and the promise of some streamlining, combined with the free rules, really does make for an appealing advert.

Play, man. Do it.

Maybe, providing you field your Thousand Sons and post the battle reports ;).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 22, 2017, 01:22:22 PM
Yeah, as much as I have enjoyed 7th, it was a step in precisely the wrong direction. The entry costs went up (the costs of codexes and books was way too high), the complexity went up (too much), and the game balance went right out the window.

If they can eliminate or partially streamline those first two problems, I can certainly forgive them the third problem. Honestly, fixing any two of these problems would be huge.

I am much less worried about this release than I was, thanks to this FAQ. I know that, in practice, I've enjoyed all the editions of this game (though I never actually played Rogue Trader and barely played 3rd Ed), every time there's a shift it is jarring. On the plus side, it almost always revitalizes my interest in the game.

It seems as though 8th might be the end of a long, long run of 3rd Edition revisions (which 3rd-7th have all been, at their heart, variations of the same thing) and the dawn of something truly new. In this way, it is probably most similar to the shift from 2nd to 3rd Ed. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on April 22, 2017, 02:04:35 PM
I'm extremely excited for this news... I love the direction the story is going and every item in the FAQ was very encouraging. Especially mention of FW models being included in the update process. As someone whose invested heavily in FW over the years I was worried about what was coming down the pipe in that regard.

All the rules they've previewed are excellent. The FAQ questions were all encouraging. The affirmation of continued community support is awesome... and FREE core rules? Thank the gods.

Hopefully we can get a nice fast game AoS style which features loads of models and lots of complexity.

And I gotta say it the "New" GW has really been great. Its really nice to know ahead of time where the game is going, a rough schedule on when things will be dropping so you can plan out what direction you want to take your collection... or how you want organize things within your community. Super, super encouraging.

I do hope they continue to preview some of the new mechanics as we go forward.

@Irisado- I know you still have a very strong stance on flyers and super heavies which I totally understand and appreciate... but trust me its really not a big deal to ask your opponents not to play with them. Guys who play ALL the time ask me just bring a basic CAD no super-heavies, no flyers. Arranging games has really become the norm and its actually nice because you know roughly what you are getting yourself into. It really reduces those "Gothcha!" moments and just total list mismatches when you discuss competitivness, flyers, super-heavies, formations etc. before you play. Anyway dont want to go off on a tangent on that whole song and dance... but regardless I do hope the new edition draws some of the veterans back to the game, including yourself.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on April 22, 2017, 02:10:25 PM
The people spoke and GW finally decided to listen.   The 3 way approach sounds like organized play might actually come back something not seen since 5th edition.   

Free rules and no codexs...sign me the hell up, after all this is a miniature game it seemed over the last several years they released more books then models.

After the much disliked 6th edition which IMHO ruined the game for a lot of players then the 6.5 edition (7th edition) I gave up on collecting and playing 40k.  Can't tell you how many years back that was but it had to be awhile as the $200 a month i was putting toward GW has went to other model companies. 

I am glad they are doing a free version of the rules as most of their competitors do.  Easier to play and not needing a library of books... another huge plus.   It seems that GW finally may have learned they are not the only horse in the race.   

I am excited for 8th edition.   Bring it on.  Hopefully it will rekindle my lost love of 40k.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 22, 2017, 02:38:36 PM
I'm still largely unclear why people hated 6th Edition. I mean, they certainly did, but I really don't understand why.

Granted, the 6th Edition Eldar codex was garbage just because of Wave Serpents being obnoxiously broken, but beyond that...<shrug> It was no worse than 4th or 3rd and less complicated and expensive than 7th.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on April 22, 2017, 03:01:19 PM
I've played every edition since 2nd and have enjoyed them all. There's always a rough patch during change over, but once settled in, I play lots of games and have fun. :)
7th has been my favourite edition so far I think- so much variety and choice has been great, and the addition of super heavies and flyers has really expanded the game well.
I'm sure there will be another rough changeover, but I'll love this edition of the game too. Games Workshop make games that I enjoy playing- can't see that changing any time soon! :D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on April 22, 2017, 07:22:45 PM
I'm still largely unclear why people hated 6th Edition. I mean, they certainly did, but I really don't understand why.

Granted, the 6th Edition Eldar codex was garbage just because of Wave Serpents being obnoxiously broken, but beyond that...<shrug> It was no worse than 4th or 3rd and less complicated and expensive than 7th.

Lets see, hull points, stand and shoot, challenges, magic phase, bring what you have, flyers, super heavies, assigning hits, rolling for individual models... etc.    10 times more rules to just make the game go uber slow, be non competitive without making an exhausting amount of "you can't bring this or use that" for tournaments.   They took a perfectly good working format and flushed it.   5th you could walk though a game or play a competative one without having to page a rulebook or a codex every few minutes.   

For every rule they added from 5th to 6th they had to add all these specifications.   5th had great flow easy to pick up, hard to master.  That is what you want in a game.  Apocolypse games was the big event to bring all your friends and your collections and just have a game of it.   No one cared if it was balanced as more likely then not several units would get blown off the table by one weapon but there were several more where that came from.   

So to recap...
-keep air, formations, superheavies for Apocalypse
-challenges, magic phase, stand and shoot toss them, keep them in fantasy where they belong
-rolling for every model crap, and losing weapons dragging shooting and combat phases to rediculous lengths..  ditch it grab a hand full of dice i failed 5 saves, remove 5 models. 
-ditch hull points glancing a tank with handguns is rediculous

I am sure there is others I am missing but those alone added an extra 30min to an hour to most games which in turn meant looking up more rules.  None of it was needed and thru the comp game into the toilet.  If you want individual models to do things play a skirmish game where you only have 10 or so models doing it not 50-100.






Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 22, 2017, 08:42:47 PM
Exciting times ahead people. Have never looked forward to a rules change before. The mention of new models sounds appealing as well. Can't say any more that hasn't already been said. Just so blessed excited.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 22, 2017, 08:59:49 PM
AngelofDeath007
Pretty much everything you name there persisted in 7th and, if anything, it got worse. Yet 7th enjoyed a lot more popularity. I don't get it.

5th was better, granted, but 6th was fun. Besides, vehicles (which were waaay too good in 5th) got nicely balanced in 6th. Hull Points were (and *are*) a good thing.

Anyway, all over now. Hopefully 8th pulls people back in.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on April 22, 2017, 11:51:28 PM
Well... its been a while... Life happened... I haven't had enough hobby in a long while.... I played some 7th. I liked it... I am shifting back to playing again once this hits... ill be finishing the armies I've been working on for a while (space wolves, blood ravens, white scars, saim-hann...) and maybe ill get a few games in again before the edition drops... but one thing is for sure... I'm back baby!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lazarus on April 23, 2017, 10:23:32 AM
I'm waiting patiently to see what they do. I'm glad that GW is finally changing how they interact with the public.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 23, 2017, 11:43:07 AM
The new edition of the rules can't come soon enough. Everything I've heard about the rules is good news to me.

Going to be the golden age of gw, with age of sigmar being an amazing game and now 40k getting the shake up it needs.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 23, 2017, 12:02:20 PM
The new edition of the rules can't come soon enough. Everything I've heard about the rules is good news to me.

Going to be the golden age of gw, with age of sigmar being an amazing game and now 40k getting the shake up it needs.

Yeah, I keep getting more positive about it as time goes on. Just goes to show what a rut the game's been in for the past few years, much as I've enjoyed it.

I just very much hope they don't change it to the point where it doesn't feel like the same game (i.e. WHFB to AoS). They say they are not doing that in the FAQ, so I'm hopeful.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on April 23, 2017, 09:29:31 PM
As an aussie player who stopped going to tourneys here because of the Community Comp push that we had here... my hope is that with the match play style being introduced.... that we can BURY Community Comp once and for all.....
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 23, 2017, 10:14:45 PM
G'day Mr Draken! What do you mean by community comp? We don't have any Tournaments here. Have to travel to Brissy if we want to be in one.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on April 23, 2017, 11:13:52 PM
G'day Mr Draken! What do you mean by community comp? We don't have any Tournaments here. Have to travel to Brissy if we want to be in one.
I believe he is talking about this:  CC Terminal (http://terminal.communitycomp.org/CCDocument.php)

Tournament organizers have gone to great extents to try and balance 7th edition.  For the Aussies, they came up with the Community Comp.  The two other popular tournament formats are ITC (www.frontlinegaming .org) and ETC (European Tabletop Championship (ETC) - European Tabletop Championship (ETC) | T³ (https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/etc)).

Frankly, I am in agreement with Draken in that I can't wait for the tournament scene to go back to a system where it plays the core game where you don't need a tournament specific FAQ to supplement the GW FAQ that supplements each codex you are using.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 24, 2017, 12:04:18 AM
Wow! That sounds like a pain in the nostril. Kind of glad they don't have any comps in my area now. If 8th ED cancels that out, I might start one up myself. Thanks for the heads up, Grand Master Lomandalis.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on April 24, 2017, 01:09:16 AM
G'day Mr Draken! What do you mean by community comp? We don't have any Tournaments here. Have to travel to Brissy if we want to be in one.
I believe he is talking about this:  CC Terminal (http://terminal.communitycomp.org/CCDocument.php)

Tournament organizers have gone to great extents to try and balance 7th edition.  For the Aussies, they came up with the Community Comp.  The two other popular tournament formats are ITC (www.frontlinegaming .org) and ETC (European Tabletop Championship (ETC) - European Tabletop Championship (ETC) | T³ (https://www.tabletoptournaments.net/etc)).


That is a huge indicator why people had issues with 6th and 7th edition.  6th introduced too much with too many rules.  7th tried to patch it up.  Problem was they tried to reinvent the wheel with 6th and ruined it.  Everything since has been trying to make 6th work which was like trying to put a square peg in a round hole.  Hence GW basically saying FU to tournament play.   I am so glad to see them change it and give people options and free ones at that.   I was reading all the stuff for the tournaments and it was to the point where an organizer would have to rewrite the rules for 40k to try and balance it, something the game should have done from the get go.   I gave up 40k in 6th.  Picked up 7th as i had high hopes that after the shortest run in 40k history it made up for the mistakes of 6th.  I was wrong.  It was like putting a bandage over a serious injury.  All my 40k stuff got burried in my spare room except my display stuff for the hopes that GW would eventually see the light.   

Here is to hope that 8th will be the come back of 40k for all the veterans who gave up on it after the trash that was 6th.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 24, 2017, 01:57:28 AM
Sooooo: Angel of Death 007! A whole bunch of 40K sitting in the back of your cupboard? If you don't get into 8TH ED you'll let me know, won't you!... Maybe?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Aurics Pride on April 24, 2017, 04:01:47 AM
I've got to be honest I definitely seem to be in the minority when it comes to this edition change.
To me the FAQ says absolutely nothing that we didn't already know/suspect. Fantasy has been a trial ground for 40k for a few editions now and we knew that certain bits of Age Of Sigmar would be appearing in 8th.
I don't see why people are gushing over the "3 ways to play" comment. That's exactly what we have now..... Open is unbound, Matched play is the current and then Narrative you have Altar of War missions/ Campaign missions or you can make your own. I really can't see anything much changing here.

To be entirely honest everything I read just worries me more, I find Age of Sigmar bland and boring and I really don't want 40k to go that way. I've continued to paint models that I already have but I've not bought anything in months and I'm not in a hurry to.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on April 24, 2017, 05:13:08 AM
I'm somewhat indifferent towards the change. I was happy when 5th went away but failed to play anywhere near as many games during 6th and 7th combined. Stopped playing Fantasy completely when AoS dropped, seeing how things got streamlined in a way that I found unacceptable; still have some 5k Dwarfs Disposessed gathering dust.

I still view AoS as a very week game and as an excuse to drop grossly overpriced new kits for armies that essentially consist of three different boxes (a trend which also happens in 40k; Admech, Hybrids). "The game you wanted with the setting you love" sounds encouraging - the setting change for WHFB killed it completely for me and not even free rules would change that.

I really hope GW does not drop the ball on this one. And if they do, our group will simply continue to play 7th, since we all invested quite a bit in print releases the past couple of years.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 24, 2017, 06:18:57 AM
Aurics Pride: Feel like a bit of a sell out after reading your reply. Then after thinking about it, I've totally forgotten 7TH ED was set out like that. We didn't use any other system but the core rules. We didn't even use the mission cards. We'll probably do the same with 8TH. Good call, mate!

Katamari Damacy: Have never looked at AoS before. I spent a lot of money on two Fantasy armies and didn't even get a game in before they pulled the curtains on us. Still painting them up though and plan to have some games, but still feel a little ripped off.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on April 24, 2017, 01:04:43 PM
Sooooo: Angel of Death 007! A whole bunch of 40K sitting in the back of your cupboard? If you don't get into 8TH ED you'll let me know, won't you!... Maybe?

I've held on to it this long I will see it out too many hours painting that I can never get back or get paid for to make it worth while.

I've got to be honest I definitely seem to be in the minority when it comes to this edition change.

I don't see why people are gushing over the "3 ways to play" comment. That's exactly what we have now..... Open is unbound, Matched play is the current and then Narrative you have Altar of War missions/ Campaign missions or you can make your own. I really can't see anything much changing here.

When every organizer for a tournament has to come up with custom rules just to host a 40k tournament which GW could give a crap about in 6th and 7th I don't see how you can argue there is such a thing as "matched" play.

I'm somewhat indifferent towards the change. I was happy when 5th went away but failed to play anywhere near as many games during 6th and 7th combined. Stopped playing Fantasy completely when AoS dropped, seeing how things got streamlined in a way that I found unacceptable; still have some 5k Dwarfs Disposessed gathering dust.

I still view AoS as a very week game and as an excuse to drop grossly overpriced new kits for armies that essentially consist of three different boxes (a trend which also happens in 40k; Admech, Hybrids). "The game you wanted with the setting you love" sounds encouraging - the setting change for WHFB killed it completely for me and not even free rules would change that.

I really hope GW does not drop the ball on this one. And if they do, our group will simply continue to play 7th, since we all invested quite a bit in print releases the past couple of years.

5th went away and so did tournaments.  Pick up games required that you have a library of books and then in 7th a massive amount of formations.  Rules on top of rules and we fix 6th to 6.5 or 7th how?  by adding more rules.   

Die hard fantasy lovers hated to see Age of Sigmar but honestly fantasy only really catered toward veteran players.  Being a new fantasy player a few years back I can honestly say it was extremely complex to pick up and learn.   AOS solved that brought in new gamers without all the time spent in movement and formation movement.

"not even free rules will change that"  well better then the $80 for a rulebook that after reading it you never use.   I bought the rulebook in 6th edition and 7th and i think using it for toilet paper would be an insult to my toilet. 

I for one have been waiting for GW to flush all this rules on top of rules and putting out a library of books crap.  They got modern their competitors offer free rules online.  Hopefully this is an end to the $50 codex book, and supplement book, and then downloads just to try and play an army which who knows if that tournament will use what parts of what because GW couldn't build a balancing that supported organized play.

GW lost $200 a month from 6th edition onward from me.   I know several other veterans that gave up or sold their collection after 6th came out.  I have tried more games and a few have stuck since giving up my 40k addiction.  We shall see if 8th gives us back the game we once loved.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 24, 2017, 01:37:16 PM
Here is the information from the live FAQ today.

Q: Working with a couple concepts, change movement, armor modifiers, new way of doing charges, if you charge you strike first, morale changes.
A: Yes. these were concepts discussed at Adepticon.

Q: Any specific rules around vehicles and armor values?
A: No armor value anymore. All models use the same type of stat line. Big tanks get wounded (all have a damage table and stats decrease). Different for every model. Keeps vehicles through the game. Str and Toughness works where everyone can hurt everyone. (sounds like AoS there)

Q: Will each army keep its current play style?
A: Yes they are trying to keep the styles similar.

Q: Is the game still a D6 system?
A: Yes it is

Q: How long does a game take in comparison to a 1500 point game now?
A: Games were taking 3.5 hours during team tournament in 7th at Adepticon. 1500 points is about 90min. Games should take about 2 hours in general.

Q: Support for narrative play allowing connections to offshoots such as Shadow War?
A: Yes absolutely. Lots of campaigns, war zones and lots of ways of reflecting the 40k galaxy.

Q: Will any models - miniatures and scenery NOT receive new rules in the new edition?
A: No. they are all in

Q: Command points? what can you tell us.
A: Charges fight first, armies playing to play style. One of the mechanisms is called Command Points which allows you to make the army. You generate command points based on how large the army is. (Reroll dice, interrupt charging going first with a command point, etc. They are super valuable and tactical to use. Once they are gone they are gone. Additional command points will be in the various codexes (see below) Command points will for example, not only define a Space Marine army - but also the FLAVOR of Space Marine Army.
Battle Forged - Force org is in during base and competitive play. About 14 different force orgs charts.

Q: Are codexes going away?
A: No. There will be new ones in the new edition.

Q: Are Templates going away?
A: Yes they are.

Q: Are there limits to command points?
A: Yes. 1 per phase and also by formation.

Q: Has the new edition been better tested?
A: yes. A lot. In the US. Frontline, Nova, and Adepticon have tested every single unit from every codex.

Q: How will I get access to the rules for my army
A: Everyone will get their new rules Day 1. On launch there will be a series of 5 books. On that day there will be all rules available. All points have been rebalanced and units have been play tested. When your codex comes out it will include new command points, etc. Army special rules, etc.

Q: Will broken units be taken down a peg?
A: All units have been play tested. At launch this will be the most robust and most balanced version we have.

Q: Will matched play session of the 3 ways to play be updated regularly?
A: Yes. Looking at AoS and how it was done. Book will come out annually which addresses all three styles of play.

Q: How will free rules be presented?
A: Digital and all of our stores and some independent stockiest will have a limited supply at launch in print format

Q: Will there be an App with an Army Builder like AoS
A: We are working on a WH40k App. Not available on launch but later.

Q: Will we see a specific set of tournament rules?
A: Not a specific set - but match play is a good start and some guidance to tournament organizers

Q: How can we be confident you have had enough time to do this for all models and rules?
A: Its been a long time in the making. We engaged with others quite awhile ago and we are pleased and confident that its going to be great.

Q: What were the Top 3 goals of the design team for this edition?
A: Lots of goals. 1 to make a game that worked for all three ways to play. Spent a lot of time on the background. Push to the forefront the battle between Imperium and Chaos. Thats not the rightful place. Chaos is the big threat to the galaxy. You will see that come through more over the next couple of years. Over the 2+ years that 7th has been around we have received a lot of feedback from players. This edition tried REALLY hard to make it the game you asked for. We are listening and trying to tick the boxes that you are asking for.

Q: When is the new edition being released?
A: This year. We will have more news on that very soon. But not today.

Q: Will we see more at Warhammer Fest?
A: Safe to assume we will show more there.

Q: With the advent of AoS we saw a lot of models disappear. Will the same thing happen to 40k?
A: No. All factions and models currently represented will be there.

Q: Will we have points on launch?
A: more than one set of them. We have two different ways to play. One called Power Level focused on narrative play, doesn’t matter what you equip with. broad brush stroke. Just for fun but has some structure.
Then there are matched play points which are more granular where you are paying points for models, weapons, equipment, etc.
Two different ways focused on the way you want to play.

Q: Some factions seem to be missing from the website
A: Site is from a narrative point of view. All factions are still there. (eg: Astra Militarum vs Tempestus Scions). its a very top level view of how things fit.

Q: Will we see any new factions we haven’t seen before?
A: Yes. New things on the way. (even for launch)

Q: What about monsters being effected by Damage?
A: As they get wounded they get weaker. Just like vehicles. Its very fun and narrative.

Q: Will bolters be able to damage tanks?
A: Yes everything can hurt everything - BUT its hard to do. No stat is capped at 10 any longer. The big heavy weapons cause multiple damage now.

Q: What sizes of games are supported?
A: All sorts of sizes. Match play scales through about 1000 points to much larger. Narrative play scales from about a 1000 to the skies the limit.

Q: What model has the highest wound count.
A: Knights are pretty high - but don’t recall off the top of head.

Q: Recognizable Force Org Chart?
A: Yes

Q: Allied forces still viable?
A: yes but it works differently now. Addresses Death Stars. Its a keyword driven system (like AoS) so some units will NOT play off of other units due to key word. Abilities are passed on to units they SHOULD be passed on to and not units they should not.

Q: Will there be deathstars in the game?
A: A tournament term - they normally come about as a result of holes in the rules and work as never anticipated. Things that don’t fit the narrative. The keywords help keep this in check. We can be much more in control of the synergies.

Q: Is close combat going to be viable again?
A: Absolutely. Its a huge part of the game and was missed before. You will see some changes.

Q: Will there be benefits to sticking to one faction?
A: Yes there will be. Mostly based on command points.

Q: What are you guys most looking forward to?
A: Looking forward to reaction to the finished product. We want to see how close we got to what people were asking for.

Q: FW Rules
A: Will be available in the same way though not necessarily the same place.

Q: Background change?
A: We aren’t going to radically change what 40k is about but we are going to advance the storyline and add more background.

Q: People asking about I bought a rulebook or codex fairly recently and now it won’t be valid. What should I do?
A: Everything we have launched in the new game - our customer service people will send vouchers for the value of their purchase for last 8 weeks if you have proof of purchase. Email customer service team on GW website and they will sort you out.

http://www.facebook.com/theindependentcharacters/?fref=nf (http://www.facebook.com/theindependentcharacters/?fref=nf)

All looks pretty good to me!

Edit:  Broke the questions to make it easier to read.  --- GML
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 24, 2017, 02:35:33 PM
Thanks for that Killersquid. All sounds very interesting. Sounds like most of everybody's wish list is coming true. Only time will tell.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on April 24, 2017, 03:52:56 PM
I can't wait for 8th edition. Seems like a huge step in the right direction. I am very sad that a lot of my beloved formations will likely disappear. So many of the problems come from the tourney scene that use large points games. The game is so much better at 1500pts.

Irisado - Don't worry too much about the giant models. It seems that with the change to stats, profiles, and new modifiers they won't be a huge pain. They literally say, that everything can hurt anything now. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 24, 2017, 05:37:40 PM
The only thing that annoys me is the Str/Toughness change, but if they up everybody's wounds, then I suppose it doesn't matter as much.

It will be weird to see tanks potentially blown up by massed lasguns. Not sure I like that idea.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 24, 2017, 06:10:01 PM
I can't wait for 8th edition. Seems like a huge step in the right direction. I am very sad that a lot of my beloved formations will likely disappear. So many of the problems come from the tourney scene that use large points games. The game is so much better at 1500pts.


As a tournament player, 1500pts in 7th is as broken as 1850pts. Just quicker to play.

I'm glad for a big shake up.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on April 24, 2017, 07:35:57 PM
For me the most important points from the QandA are this:
-14 force org charts, the bigger the chart, the more command points earned
-Command points can be cashed in, 1 per phase, 1 use only. and there are MANY ways to use said points. (to interrupt charge going first for a specific fight etc) and a lot of those will be army themed.
-Templates are GONE!
-2 different point systems, narrative gets a general point per unit system. matched gets the in depth point system we know today.
-No more different stat line... Tanks and such have toughness and all that jazz. no more armour values. though, for both tanks and monsters... the more wounds they take, the less effective they will be... each individual monster/tank will have their own damage chart!
-NO MORE CAPPED 10 STATS! stats can go over 10.
-5 books total at the start to cover all of the armies points wise Marines, Imperial, Chaos, Xenos.... and one other they wouldn't name. codex's coming out as they go.

and... last but not least....
ENTIRELY NEW FACTIONS AT LAUNCH!

EDIT: adding this, as Pete Foley is clarifying stuff on twitter after the QandA. specifically... approx. 12 pages for the core rules. not including rules for the 3 different ways to play etc or army building rules.
Twitter source: Pete Foley on Twitter: "@Dried The core rules are around a dozen pages. But this (https://twitter.com/GeekJockPete/status/856600913548652547)

Other tidbits include:
-lasguns COULD kill a rhino.. but your looking at 50 to MAYBE bring it down?
-Random initiative is NOT coming to 40k, staying in AoS
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on April 24, 2017, 07:41:13 PM
The only thing that annoys me is the Str/Toughness change, but if they up everybody's wounds, then I suppose it doesn't matter as much.

It will be weird to see tanks potentially blown up by massed lasguns. Not sure I like that idea.

From what I have heard on other sites it would take like 50 lasguns 11 turns to take out a landraider.  Something to that tune.   If you are going to devote that much firepower I am sure something else will destroy you.  Focusing all your firepower at one thing won't stop the rest of the army around it. 

So basically I don't see a single squad of guard taking out a land raider in one turn of shooting even a 50 man squad.  Now finishing off one after everything else hammers it and weakens it seems not only feasible but also realistic.   
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 25, 2017, 02:12:47 PM
GW just posted how stats will work. Dreadnoughts w/ 8 wounds. Termies w/ 2. Etc.

Str Vs Toughness is still there! Yay!

(I'm gonna need a *lot* of wound counters, it seems)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 25, 2017, 02:23:52 PM
Warhammer 40,000: Unit Profiles – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/)


I'm really really happy about this. This will help bring all units back to relivence.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on April 25, 2017, 04:00:54 PM
Uhhh, well, I feel like they are mixing AoS and Armageddon. We just started armageddon and after reading the updates, well, that's what I caught. I've played since 2nd (which was more work then game).
3rd was quick and easy with just a few weird rules.
4th streamlined the streamlined and 5th broadened the game to more,well fun.
6th, don't get me started, meat grinders were fun but the scenerios were so one sided it sucked.
7th fixed a lot of 6th and added the new scenarios as well a tactical objectives. Heck I won a game once with my farseer being the only model I had left but I collected way more objectives so victory. It made us start paying attention to them more then kill kill. Also added some much need diversity and had to think real hard on what could help you win over model count.

8th well until it drops, just shows me that all the codeices and objective cards we spent money on will be obselete, sure free rules,nice but if AoS is the template then they won't all be free for long. New factions=new rules which they will cash out on. My 2 cents.

With all the armies I own, I hope 8th keeps me interested. I've got my fingers crossed.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 25, 2017, 04:06:52 PM
Uhhh, well, I feel like they are mixing AoS and Armageddon. We just started armageddon and after reading the updates, well, that's what I caught. I've played since 2nd (which was more work then game).
3rd was quick and easy with just a few weird rules.
4th streamlined the streamlined and 5th broadened the game to more,well fun.
6th, don't get me started, meat grinders were fun but the scenerios were so one sided it sucked.
7th fixed a lot of 6th and added the new scenarios as well a tactical objectives. Heck I won a game once with my farseer being the only model I had left but I collected way more objectives so victory. It made us start paying attention to them more then kill kill. Also added some much need diversity and had to think real hard on what could help you win over model count.

8th well until it drops, just shows me that all the codeices and objective cards we spent money on will be obselete, sure free rules,nice but if AoS is the template then they won't all be free for long. New factions=new rules which they will cash out on. My 2 cents.

With all the armies I own, I hope 8th keeps me interested. I've got my fingers crossed.

I don't see how the maelstrom cards will be obsolete. Nothing on the cards are that relevant to what's been changed. Also, they are like $10 for a pack, not a big deal.

GW said the codex's are, but are offering vouchers for any rulebooks and codex's bought in the last 8 weeks.

Shadow wars Armageddon is 2nd edition rules. It's literally the exact same rules that Necromunda had.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on April 25, 2017, 05:01:26 PM
I know but I've owned all of mine longer then that, they came out, I bought.

Unfortunately I never got to play Necrumunda.I've played one game of Armageddon with my wyches, got slaughtered, but I can't wait to play again with them.

I hope your right about the cards. I find them very useful as opposed to the book taking up so much space on or around the table.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 25, 2017, 05:32:12 PM
I would very much prefer *not* to have to play the game with a deck of cards, thanks. My *least* favorite part of 7th.

I hope the missions get more interesting *without* resorting to random objectives.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on April 25, 2017, 06:00:24 PM
I'm kind of mixed over everything can hurt anything on a D6 system... Haven't seen any details on exactly how this is going to work yet.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on April 25, 2017, 08:22:08 PM
I do agree with the no cards, I prefer a table with only terrain, dice and armies on it.

I don't think they'll mess with the d6, it's kinda trademark for GW.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on April 25, 2017, 11:14:04 PM
You didn't have to play with cards.  You could have used dice, rolled on the table, and written down the result for record keeping.  The cards just made it easier and faster.

Plus, I got to show off my sick shuffling abilities.  You'd be amazed at how many people can't properly shuffle a deck of cards...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 26, 2017, 08:51:38 AM
You didn't have to play with cards.  You could have used dice, rolled on the table, and written down the result for record keeping.  The cards just made it easier and faster.

Plus, I got to show off my sick shuffling abilities.  You'd be amazed at how many people can't properly shuffle a deck of cards...

Oh, yes, you could have done it an *even worse* way, true.  ;)

Maelstrom was a fine idea with a amphetamine parrotty execution. Hated those missions, hated that playstyle, and will throw a little party for myself when it's dead and gone.

If there's one thing I hope this edition delivers, it is less pointless randomness for the sake of it. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 26, 2017, 09:01:45 AM
You'd be amazed at how many people can't properly shuffle a deck of cards...

That would be me.  I always used to let my friends do the shuffling back when we played second edition and you had to use the psychic phase cards.

The unit profiles is the change that I am most enthused about thus far.  I am very pleased to see that GW has decided to remove the 'ten cap' and that they are going to make more use of the wound characteristic to reflect the durability of certain units.  Retaining strength and toughness is also positive for 40K, given the diversity of weapons and armour.

Command points also look potentially very interesting and tactical.  Learning when and how to spend them seems as though it will make for a more dynamic game, which is encouraging.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on April 26, 2017, 11:02:00 AM
Weapon Profiles are up on the community page! So far I'm liking what I see. They show a Flamer, a Boltgun and a Laser Cannon. Flame "templates" are looking good, and so are the Armor Save modifiers. I think this will allow them to do much more unique weapon stats and the mentioning of 10+ Strentgh (and with that some brutal save modifiers) makes me guess that certain weapons on vehicles might indeed become very powerful.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Alienscar on April 26, 2017, 11:07:20 AM
I don't see how the maelstrom cards will be obsolete. Nothing on the cards are that relevant to what's been changed.

Have you all seen the list (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?Nu=product.repositoryId&N=102352+2754703357&qty=96&sorting=rec&view=table&categoryId=cat440130a-flat) of what will become redundant once the new edition is launched?

Pyschic and Tactical Objective cards are on the list so not sure if this would include Maelstrom
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: SKEETERGOD on April 26, 2017, 11:37:44 AM
I have read a few of the rumor boards and a bit of the GW boards as well. I am looking forward to the new one as it seems to be a lot less complicated. No more having to have note cards for playing a game so you can keep track of what is dead and what is not.

Being a bit of a bookkeeper (lol) I find that having to keep a running book while playing a game to be a bit dull, it is more fun to know that your boss just killed the tank rather than causing 4 hull points of damage and then having to roll to see if it is a critical hit to get the explosion that all orks live for.

Hopefully this will revive 40k as it has kinda died out in my area, and I have to drive more than an hour to play a game.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 26, 2017, 01:44:49 PM
Nice to hear Strength D is gone--always hated that.

Kinda expected the stats on the flamer, but I'm rather disappointed at their own assessment of it. 1D6 auto hits is not as good as an 8" flamer template. At all. The fact that they have no armor mod also sucks (Orks and Guardsmen rejoice!). Strong chance I'll be binning flamers unless I can stack more than one in a unit.

This indicates my initial suspicion that this may be the era of the Heavy Weapon (a return to the halcyon days of 2nd Ed) may be correct. If so, I'm prepared to run guard and have a hell of a good time.   
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 26, 2017, 02:48:38 PM
I don't know about flat 'not better'. They are both different. The auto-hits are guaranteed, where as the template at 8" would probably just hit one model.

Hard to say how good weapons are, without context of the points and anything else. Could be that flamers are a free upgrade over bolters, instead of 5pts for example.

I think it's cool to see the new mechanics without rumours, but I'm going to withhold any bold judgements until I can look at the rules holistically. I think we might see the rules for pre-order this weekend or next.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on April 26, 2017, 04:29:54 PM
Man one of the most awesome things revealed so far, is Terminators with two wounds! So stoked I went all in on a decked out squad of FW Terminators for my Dark Angels. Such a huge improvement. At least it appears so in a vacuum. Really cannot wait to see where things go...

Also how about D6 wound Lascannons? Hooo doggy that looks sweet!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on April 26, 2017, 04:59:29 PM
Nice to hear Strength D is gone--always hated that.

Kinda expected the stats on the flamer, but I'm rather disappointed at their own assessment of it. 1D6 auto hits is not as good as an 8" flamer template. At all. The fact that they have no armor mod also sucks (Orks and Guardsmen rejoice!). Strong chance I'll be binning flamers unless I can stack more than one in a unit.

Strength D will have simply changed, I'm betting it will just have a Strength value over 10 and if a Lascannon does D6 wounds..

If a flamer and thus everything that used the flamer template is going to be D6 hits, then it could be very interesting against single model targets. To be fair though, an average of 3-4 hits from the flamer template is about right.

The Boltgun also seems to be missing an armour modifier.. Dark Eldar player must be cheering lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on April 26, 2017, 05:21:29 PM
How's everyone feeling about the details?  I'm pretty stoked myself.  ;D

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 26, 2017, 06:53:35 PM
The difference between a D6 and a flamer template is simply reliability. You can guarantee 3-4 hits every time you use a flamer at optimal range. Now, no such animal. You *average* 3.5 over the whole course of you using flamers (forever), but that changes them from "consistently solid" to "sporadic." It's a downgrade.

Now, I hadn't considered its use against a single target, honestly. That *is* a bit better. Though it doesn't quite fulfill the same role the flamer used to have.

And yes, all of this will depend on points costs. Not currently enthused, though. My record with random rolls like this is truly abysmal.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on April 26, 2017, 07:05:29 PM
As far as flamers go, I think the number able to be taken in a squad as well as the mechanic for rolling for them are two factors we don't yet know the details of.

If you can take, say, a flamer as a free upgrade over a lasgun in any guardian squad*? And what if the total number of hits is Nd6 where N = the number of flamers in the squad, vs rolling for each flamer? If you take 10 flamers, and then roll 10 dice and add them up.. statistically you get much closer to the mean. Two things we simply don't know right now but could make a difference in the effectiveness of the weapon.


Overall, I am very much enjoying the direction the game is going, and am ecstatic I took the time and effort to magnetize my newly acquired wraithknight

*Please note, that is a hypothetical and not something I see as actually happening - just pointing out there is a bit we don't know yet
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on April 26, 2017, 07:45:45 PM
I'm very disappointed on those weapon profiles, random amount of hits and random amount of wounds. Why take away dicerolls with one hand and then add them with the other hand. :(

Flamers being more effective against single models than groups is utterly stupid. Horde armies rejoice. I may just have to start a grot army.

I wonder if D-scythes will be Assault D6 S11 -4 D6, that would make a unit of 5 Wraithguards cause between 5 and 180 wounds which is ridiculous IMHO.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 26, 2017, 11:06:52 PM
I'm very disappointed on those weapon profiles, random amount of hits and random amount of wounds. Why take away dicerolls with one hand and then add them with the other hand. :(

Flamers being more effective against single models than groups is utterly stupid. Horde armies rejoice. I may just have to start a grot army.

I wonder if D-scythes will be Assault D6 S11 -4 D6, that would make a unit of 5 Wraithguards cause between 5 and 180 wounds which is ridiculous IMHO.

I don't think that d6 auto hits is that bad against Infantry. Odds are an average of 3 hits. Not bad, and about par for the course usually with flamers.

Also, I'd wait until the rules are released before making any hasty judgments. How the weapon looks in a vacuum, may be different then how it looks In context to the rest of the rules.

Also, feel free to build a grot army. Could be a fun modeling project.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on April 27, 2017, 04:07:50 AM
The Boltgun also seems to be missing an armour modifier.. Dark Eldar player must be cheering lol.

IMHO that was the right thing to do. The Bolter is one if not the most common weapon in the game. 5+ Save Armies would at least get some sort of roll, still not a great chance of survival. A -1 modifier would have made Power Armor and Terminator armor much worse than they were so far and granting those Orks their 6+ Save against a regualr Bolter is fair in my view.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 27, 2017, 05:20:13 AM
What bothers me about the weapon profiles is that they seem to be introducing more dice rolling and more randomisation.  One of the major problems with recent editions of 40K has been too much dice rolling, yet they want to make more weapons have to roll for the number of hits or wounds inflicted.  I'm not keen on this, as I think that it will introduce too much unreliability and slow the game down.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 06:03:23 AM
I think the theory is that the die roll will take less time than any given template. Not certain I agree, but it *is* simpler in execution.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2017, 06:12:11 AM
Maelstrom isn't going, it was talked about there still being 2 mission types; Eternal War and Maelstrom.
Which makes me happy- Maelstrom is the single greatest thing ever added to the game, absolutely love it! :D

Overall the game is going to get more stream-lined and quicker to play. So the odd extra dice roll here and there isn't going to make a difference. And no more need to sit there with a template deciding in which position you can get the most hits, trying to see how many guys are under the marker when it's in the middle of the board, and less arguing/discussing exactly how many are hit. :)

I love vehicles having T and W- just unifies everything nicely which is great.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on April 27, 2017, 06:19:59 AM
@Killersquid: They explicitly say that a flamers will hit single models several times, that's what I have a problem with. I think 3.5 hits (which is the average) with a flamer is fine though, but it could be achieved by D2+2 or D4+1 rather than a D6. Even a flat 3 or 4 would be better, I'm leaning towards 4 since they have no save modifier, that might become a houserule. maybe something like if the player that got hit wants to take a flat number it's 4 hits, and if the player that shot wants it, it's a flat 3.

I'm not going to jump the gun yet, but grots in battlewagons are already a quite fun concept IMO.

As for modelling, it will likely be 300 models in snot green paint.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 06:24:18 AM
I would agree that not giving a Bolter a save mod is the right move. They would become way too effective at killing elite infantry. It does reduce their effectiveness overall, but something had to give.

I'm anxious now to see how blast weapons work, given flamers. Too many of my armies rely on them, so they'd better be good.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 27, 2017, 07:24:12 AM
I think the theory is that the die roll will take less time than any given template. Not certain I agree, but it *is* simpler in execution.

I also am not certain that I agree, but it's certainly simpler, as you say.

Overall the game is going to get more stream-lined and quicker to play. So the odd extra dice roll here and there isn't going to make a difference.

I think that it's too early to reach that conclusion.  Consider that it remains unknown as to whether there will still be an instant death rule.  If that rule is removed, there is the possibility that damage rolls will have to be made against every infantry model which has multiple wounds, which is time consuming.  Also, squads comprising entirely specialist or heavy weapons are going to take longer to resolve damage for.  Think about Eldar, for example, and all their exotic weaponry, or Devastator squads or Havocs with multiple heavy weapons which are likely to cause multiple points of damage.  I need to see more about how often or whether it's going to be necessary to roll for damage against infantry before I am as confident as you are about the amount of dice rolling involved.

Another point worth making regarding determining hits on a six sided dice is that this system was previously used for some weapons, notably the Eldar Scatter Laser, in older editions of the rules.  It was abandoned because it was considered ineffective.  I remain to be convinced that it has suddenly become effective.  I feel as though the wheel is being reinvented somewhat with this approach.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 07:48:01 AM
Yep, the old scatter lasers sucked. So did sustained fire dice.

On the bright side, Flamers *do* hit automatically. That's better than the old way.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on April 27, 2017, 02:26:55 PM
So we now have a movement value, running is d6 inches on top of that value and done in the movement phase, and units can fall back out of combat at the cost of performing other actions.  Basically, they went full AoS on movement.  I'm ok with that.  :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2017, 03:07:45 PM

I'm anxious now to see how blast weapons work, given flamers. Too many of my armies rely on them, so they'd better be good.

Probably random dice rolls too, same as in AoS.

So we now have a movement value, running is d6 inches on top of that value and done in the movement phase, and units can fall back out of combat at the cost of performing other actions.  Basically, they went full AoS on movement.  I'm ok with that.  :)

Aye, movement seems cool. The ability to fall back out of combat will be great.  :D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 03:11:47 PM
The movement looks fine. I wonder if units will still get a 2D6" charge (I assume/hope so). Optional fall-back is a great rule--tarpits were always kinda stupid.

Probably random dice rolls too, same as in AoS.

Well obviously, but what *kind* of dice rolls? Will small blasts be a D3 hits or a D6? Will you have to roll to hit separately? How many dice will a large blast get? Is scattering onto friendly models gone for good?

A lot of variables there, many of them very important.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 27, 2017, 03:24:22 PM
I'm going to make an educated guess and say that small blast will be d3 hits, and large blast d6. they could also use the mechanic AoS does, where if your hitting a unit which is quite large, then you get bonuses to your hit roll, or more hits.

For the blasts, it'll work out the same with a roll, or the template. You usually only get 1-2 models with a small blast, and 2-4 with a large anyway.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 04:04:00 PM
I usually only get 2 or so with the small, yeah, but I regularly get 5-6 with the large and often even more, depending on situation. It would be one thing if those hits were automatic, but large blasts having only a d6 hits *and* having to roll to hit will suck big time. Part of the whole advantage of those templates were the pretty solid odds of getting at least 1 hit. Part of the advantage of all templates was being able to capitalize on bunched formations of troops to do god-awful tons of damage (as is fitting). All of this adds up to a pretty huge nerf of blast weapons, especially for low BS armies.
 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: volatilegaz on April 27, 2017, 04:13:53 PM
I usually only get 2 or so with the small, yeah, but I regularly get 5-6 with the large and often even more, depending on situation. It would be one thing if those hits were automatic, but large blasts having only a d6 hits *and* having to roll to hit will suck big time. Part of the whole advantage of those templates were the pretty solid odds of getting at least 1 hit. Part of the advantage of all templates was being able to capitalize on bunched formations of troops to do god-awful tons of damage (as is fitting). All of this adds up to a pretty huge nerf of blast weapons, especially for low BS armies.

...but having D6 hits against a single model will give them a different advantage, maybe they'll become solid anti-tank weapons, for example. Doesn't feel very fluffy, granted.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on April 27, 2017, 04:40:56 PM
I don't know, a flamer aimed down an open hatch would probably end any tank.  But I would assume that the multiple hits will be diluted by the toughness and armour of bigger stuff.  It is fluffy though.  Imagine setting the monster on fire.  That's bound to be the equivalent of scoring multiple wounds.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 27, 2017, 05:17:47 PM
Too be honest, after playing against Chaos Renegades with over 40 small blast shots a turn, I'm done with templates lol. Those turns took forever.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 09:17:45 PM
I get that, and I think there are ways to get blasts to work well w/o templates, but I don't want *both* random numbers of hits *and* a to-hit roll unless those random numbers are pretty high.

D3/D6 auto hit might be okay.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on April 27, 2017, 09:24:00 PM
So far I have very much liked what I have seen for the new edition... but this really worries me

Quote
If you’re in combat at the start of your turn, you can Fall Back by moving away from the enemy. You’ll lose the ability to advance, shoot or charge that turn, and crucially, enemies will be able to shoot at you!
New Warhammer 40,000 – Movement – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/27/new-warhammer-40000-movement/)

Seeing as many less-loved armies rely on sticking into cc to keep their units alive. Both as locking down enemy shooting and just for the cc units themselves. 7th ed has really been the bane of CC units with the prevalence of shooting. I don't see (with current build mentality) how a unit like wyches can be playable now. Perhaps command points? Or finally give them their dodge against shooting? Or! Bring back LD tests to shoot at a unit that isn't the closest. I miss that rule lol.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 27, 2017, 09:32:34 PM
Age of Sigmar has a rule like that, but units cannot shoot or charge in the same turn afterwards. If that's true for retreats in 8th as well, it'll make retreating have huge cons, besides your opponent getting free shots on you.

We don't have the rulebook in front of us, so I would wait until the rules are out and we've gotten a few games under our belts before getting too worried about anything. Easy to point out 'flaws' in the changes in a vacuum, but I'm waiting for the edition to be released before making any judgments.

Too be fair, nothing they have spoiled so far I disagree with. I'm excited tomorrow to see what they do with the psychic phase, as it's broken in 7th.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 27, 2017, 09:35:11 PM
Well, I guess Wyches'll get their 6+ save? They'll probably be hitting on 3s?

Honestly, everything I'm seeing indicates this will *not* be assault's favored edition. Perhaps overwatch will go away, or maybe you'll be able to consolidate into new combats again. Still doesn't look good to be a Wych, though.

(and yeah, I'm still fixated on blasts. D6 random hits for a demolisher cannon sucks, guys. Totally sucks. I'll stop whining though until I have something more solid to complain about.)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on April 27, 2017, 09:41:30 PM
As far as blasts, the only one we know for certain is the flamer. Its an auto hit with d6 hits. Demolisher cannon could be something like roll to hit - if it hits 2d6+6 hits - if it misses its just 2d6 hits.

I do agree we need to see more rules about combat etc to see how everything balances out, But my initial response is a shocked "what..."

I am very much looking forward to psychic rules and how they are gonna change cause they need too... badly
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 27, 2017, 09:53:09 PM
I'm going to say again, that it's impossible to make generalizations with the incomplete set of rules. Wait until the rules are out, and folks have played a few games. That's the time to start being salty.

GW has had the new rules play tested for a while by Front Line Gaming, and the organizers of multiple tournament organizers in the states. This has been confirmed by GW and FLG. GW has been going to events, and watching how the game has been played. Knowing this, I am certain 8th is going to be good for everyone.

I'm looking forward to seeing all armies on the table again, and everything being viable again. I'm confident this is the case. The game will be different, but that does not have to be a bad thing.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on April 27, 2017, 09:59:56 PM
I'm going to say again, that it's impossible to make generalizations with the incomplete set of rules. Wait until the rules are out, and folks have played a few games. That's the time to start being salty.

Guys, it doesn't get much clearer than that. Stay on target, leave the targeting computer *on*, and relax your way through the trench till the exhaust port appears.

It's great that GW are showing us spoilers as we wind our way to a full release. Don't panic, always know where your towel is, and remain mostly harmless.

So say we all.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on April 28, 2017, 05:35:19 AM
Seeing the new move out of combat rules, I'm fairly confident CC armies just got their final nail in their coffin. Even if you can assault from transports and reserves and jump into new combats and continue, it still does not add up to the power to retreat after a single round of combat.

The only fix would be 24" assault moves for everyone, and since the attacker hits first, just gang up on one unit, then consolidate into the next and it would throw the pendulum far into the opposite direction.
Having any resemblance of balance under these rules will be nigh impossible.
Maybe that is the thing for GW, if they can't fix it, wreck it.
I was positive to 8th ed before these things came out, but now I just started to lean the other way.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 06:22:08 AM
I'm still very positive on these changes overall. Any trepidation I feel is largely a result of history: GW does not have a good track record of balancing editions. Then again, this seems to be a new GW, so I'm hopeful.

In any event, I've yet to play an edition I haven't enjoyed, so I expect this will be no exception.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on April 28, 2017, 06:29:30 AM
G'day Fenris. I don't think there is any system that can be balanced. Some people will always find ways to sway the pendulum their way. Some will find a way to create cheese. Some of us will find a way to counter both. The only way for there to be a totally balanced game is for all the armies to have the same rules/weapons/wargear, and we know this is not what we want.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on April 28, 2017, 07:01:49 AM
Retreating will go both ways though. No more tarpitting Dreads and similar stuff with a bunch of cheap Grots or whatever  :D

People have voiced their concerns with falling back in the FB comments and GW said "in order to retreat, you'll have to survive the combat phase though". From how it sounds, retreating may well lead to the (belated) destruction of that unit and not being able to anything in the following turn, you'll have to have supporting units nearby or else the reatreating unit will simply get shot to pieces and/or get hacked down for good in the following combat.

It's very "Rogue Traderesque" (sp). I'm rather optimistic about it.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 08:36:11 AM
I do think, though, that it does make assault trickier than it currently is (and it's already pretty tricky). If they remove overwatch, then this will be a wash, I think. There's a bunch of other things they can do, too, to give assaulting a boost. Like everything else, we need to wait and see. I can totally understand how assault-army players would be nervous.

I would be nervous, too, as a Khorne Daemons player. Of course, I almost never wind up locked in combat since everything dies when I assault it. Except for Dreads. It will be super nice to be able to fall back from dreads.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 28, 2017, 09:11:27 AM
Seeing the new move out of combat rules, I'm fairly confident CC armies just got their final nail in their coffin. Even if you can assault from transports and reserves and jump into new combats and continue, it still does not add up to the power to retreat after a single round of combat.

The only fix would be 24" assault moves for everyone, and since the attacker hits first, just gang up on one unit, then consolidate into the next and it would throw the pendulum far into the opposite direction.
Having any resemblance of balance under these rules will be nigh impossible.
Maybe that is the thing for GW, if they can't fix it, wreck it.
I was positive to 8th ed before these things came out, but now I just started to lean the other way.


You have the new rulebook already then? That's the only way I can see you being confident assault is dead. All I have seeb so far is teasers of rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 09:32:18 AM
Oh, hey--just occurred to me:

You don't have to fall back from Dreads. You can actually hurt them now. They're T7, W8, 3+ Sv. Get enough hellblades and...well, that's doable.

I dunno, maybe. Again, we need the whole book. And the Codexes (which seem to be very much alive, thank you!). 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 28, 2017, 11:17:03 AM
Just a couple of reminders to everyone:

1. Please remember to avoid off topic one liners (I've removed one such post).

2. Watch the stats.  As much as we all want to know the answers, let's just link to GW material to see them, rather than writing them all out here.

Thank you :).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on April 28, 2017, 12:07:39 PM
@Saim-dann: Good day to you too :) You are correct, however I think it would be nice to have less smelly cheese to make it harder to find. Also unnecessary randomization I've got my fill of, already in 6th &7th ed. Noone where I play uses mysterious objectives because of it.
I'd rather have flamers do 4 hits flat, and just for kicks, if the target unit has less than 4 models, the superfluous hits will hit the closest unit friend or foe. ;)

Also with the removal of templates/blasts, movement trays may actually become a thing, as there is no need to spread out the units.
Edit: I'd actually rather have the foot of gork return. ;)

@Killersquid: I just can't see any rule that would balance the move out of combat.

@Everyone: How about the psykers, seems like business as usual to me:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Psychic Phase – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/28/new-warhammer-40000-psychic-phase/)
Almost like rolling against Ld again, except each spell sets the value.
Smite for everyone is just weird though.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on April 28, 2017, 12:13:11 PM
@Everyone: How about the psykers, seems like business as usual to me:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Psychic Phase – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/28/new-warhammer-40000-psychic-phase/)
Almost like rolling against Ld again, except each spell sets the value.
Smite for everyone is just weird though.

Agreed! Not quite sure what to think of the mortal wounds thing at this point. I'm skeptical about it for a couple of reasons

- every Psyker gets it
- easy to cast
- inflicting mortal wounds
- spammable (?)

Again, without knowing exactly how things will work it's tough to make a prediction (but still fun). Thinking about all my Farseers, Warlocks, Shadowseers... I guess Eldar could dish out a good amount of mortal wounds as longs as I get LOS. On the other hand, this might be an answer to all those crazy Invul-Reroll combos out there.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 28, 2017, 12:26:54 PM
Psychic powers are essentially going to work in much the same way as they do in Age of Sigmar.  That's okay by me in terms of the mechanics, since it will eliminate a lot of ridiculous randomness of the psychic phase, but the trade-off is that diversity is likely to be reduced.  On balance, I'd say that this is a pragmatic decision.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 12:54:37 PM
The psychic thing seems okay to me, though a lot of unanswered questions:

1) Where will the psychic phase fall? Before or after movement?
2) Do higher level psykers get to add anything to their psychic test (I would presume mastery level, but still)?
3) Do you get to select powers from a list, do you have a set number of powers (as in AoS), or is it still randomly generated?

I really hope we still have a list of powers from which to choose. I do *not* want to return to the bad old days of 4th/5th Edition psychic powers, where you had a very narrow range of choice and almost all of them were pretty lousy.

Smite looks like a reasonable power for everybody to have. D3 moral wounds isn't that much. Hopefully the higher-end psychic powers have a bit more punch than that. Though, I suppose an army full of horrors could put some nasty pain on the enemy, given the number of smites they could conceivably get off. (assuming, of course, Horrors are even still defined as psykers) 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on April 28, 2017, 01:49:40 PM
With their new psychic powers system they've literally done every single thing I hoped they would.  ;D

And not to brag, but I did the same thing with my own homemade system.  I even named the basic power smite.  8)

Anyone worried about the idea of smite, don't be.  It can be used to represent the pysker using whatever powers they have to simply kill.  A pyromancer could shoot fireballs, a telekinetic pysker could hurl a boulder at the target, a telepathic pysker could fry their brains...it's all in your imagination.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 02:09:25 PM
Anyone worried about the idea of smite, don't be.  It can be used to represent the pysker using whatever powers they have to simply kill.  A pyromancer could shoot fireballs, a telekinetic pysker could hurl a boulder at the target, a telepathic pysker could fry their brains...it's all in your imagination.

Yup, totally agreed here. There isn't much reason each and every basic psychic attack needs to be completely different.

That said, I do still hope they keep a variety of attack powers around for flavor. Things for killing vehicles, for instance, or for hitting multiple units at once.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 28, 2017, 02:42:12 PM


@Killersquid: I just can't see any rule that would balance the move out of combat.
.

But you don't have the full rules. You don't know the penaltys that fleeing from combat could cause.

It's extremely short sighted, and premature to announce that close combat is dead on hints of rules. It's the same to make any grand generalizations at this stage.

Wait for the full rules to be released and play a few games.


Quote
The psychic thing seems okay to me, though a lot of unanswered questions:

1) Where will the psychic phase fall? Before or after movement?
2) Do higher level psykers get to add anything to their psychic test (I would presume mastery level, but still)?
3) Do you get to select powers from a list, do you have a set number of powers (as in AoS), or is it still randomly generated?


1) They said that psychic phase happens at the same time. Between movement and shooting.

2) Master levels only dictate how many spells you can cast/ dispel a turn.

3) who knows.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 03:09:06 PM
1) They said that psychic phase happens at the same time. Between movement and shooting.

Wait, where did they say this? Not in that article, surely. 

Quote
2) Master levels only dictate how many spells you can cast/ dispel a turn.

Well, first off: how can you be sure that's all they do?

Second, assuming you're right:
Booooo. Boo, I say. Well, unless you can try to cast the same power multiple times.

Who in hell is going to bother with a hard-to-cast spell, then (an 8+, say)? You'll never get it to go off reliably, not without some kind of buff. Granted, maybe all these powers will be easier to cast than that, but given that the bottom end is a 5...

IF they don't get a buff, hopefully the difficulties do not stretch too high. Say 5s for the equivalent of WC1 powers, 6 for WC2, 7 for WC3 or something. 

Of course, there's only so much we can extrapolate right now, and it's reasonable to expect the psychic phase to get a bit of a nerf, but if I can't get powers (all of them) to work at greater than 50% odds, I'm not that enthused of making an army full of psykers (i.e. two of my standing armies).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 28, 2017, 03:50:17 PM
Check the post on their Facebook page. They are responding to questions there.


Also, I'm going to put it out there, rolling two dice looking for a 6-8 is more reliable then the warp charge mechanic. At least all your psychers will participate instead of most being warpcharge caddies for one or two guys.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on April 28, 2017, 05:05:55 PM
If it's like AoS, then psykers will come with specific powers. Hopefully smite doesn't take up one of those slots if all pyskers get it.

I'm also going to assume that multiple psykers in the same unit can't cast the same power more than once...Multiple D6 smites that ignore armor and invul saves sounds super OP. Possibly some other mechanic might prevent this.

I'm with Irisado - it worries me, like in the case with my eldar, what seems like fewer options will lead to blandness.

also curious if this means "BRB" powers that everyone shares are going away. Hope so, and everyone gets unique powers.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 28, 2017, 05:21:42 PM
I can see them doing a 'rule of 1' sort of thing. One of each power attempt per turn.

I'm going to now make assumptions based on Age of Sigmar.


I can see each psyche getting powers on their datasheet, or a table of powers for their faction to choose from. Going to guess at initial launch, each psyker might have their own power and when their codex is released they'll have a table each psyker can additionally choose from.

I can also see the Rulebook powers staying, as they are rather ubiquitous. Probably still in tables, but like in AoS you can either pick or roll (your choice).

So, each psyker may have a combination of datasheet power and/or rulebook power and/or codex powers. Just perhaps not all three at launch.

I'm excited to see what'll happen.

I'm just so happy that folks won't be taking units just for adding more warpcharge. The psychic phase will really speed up with psyker heavy armies. It's been really frustrating waiting for 20-50min for folks to finish their psychic phases each turn. Warpcharges were neat, but scaled so poorly lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 06:16:48 PM
That's true about everybody getting a shot in this new phase. I still think high-level casters should be more reliable.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 28, 2017, 06:26:47 PM
That's true about everybody getting a shot in this new phase. I still think high-level casters should be more reliable.

Agreed, and that's what their wargear or specific data sheet can help with.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 28, 2017, 06:56:20 PM
Just seems easier to just let them add their mastery level. Worked fine in WHFB.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on April 29, 2017, 03:01:33 PM
If it's like AoS, then psykers will come with specific powers. Hopefully smite doesn't take up one of those slots if all pyskers get it.

In AoS, wizards get the 2 basic powers in addition to their specific spells. Battletomes since Sylvaneth carry Faction-specific spell lists too, so there is diversity.

I imagaine that the first lotof Codices will be quite basic (so everyone can get playing quick). But then as we move on, proper Codices will appear with more variety and options.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 30, 2017, 10:16:48 AM
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/30/new-40k-shooting-phase-apr30gw-homepage-post-4/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/30/new-40k-shooting-phase-apr30gw-homepage-post-4/)

New post about the shooting phase. I am in love with the changes. Especially how cover will make your save better, not replace your save like it does now. Shooting pistols in melee will make assault units extra mean too.

Awesome!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on April 30, 2017, 10:48:27 AM
Wow, cover now added to armour save, I did not see that one coming.
That's huge!

It seems like the basic rules once again got tailored to marines.
Standard marines in hard cover will be untouchable with basic weapons, same thing for terminators in soft cover.
If 2++ with re-roll was bad, it just got worse. :(

I will also from now on refer to close combat to "the pistol phase".
Heavy weapons will be even more available, the phrase
"tread lightly and carry a big gun" echoed in rules format. :(
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 30, 2017, 10:55:50 AM
Wow, cover now added to armour save, I did not see that one coming.
That's huge!

It seems like the basic rules once again got tailored to marines.
Standard marines in hard cover will be untouchable with basic weapons, same thing for terminators in soft cover.
If 2++ with re-roll was bad, it just got worse. :(

I will also from now on refer to close combat to "the pistol phase".
Heavy weapons will be even more available, the phrase
"tread lightly and carry a big gun" echoed in rules format. :(

Salty much?

We are going to see points changed across the board. Marines and Terminators will be more expensive.

A lot of these rules are from Age of Sigmar, we are going to see a 40k version of the rule of 1. 1's will always fail. Marines in cover will be tougher to kill, as they should be.

Also, pistols are shot in the shooting phase, not the assault phase.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on April 30, 2017, 01:58:25 PM
Hopefully we'll more see pistols mentioned in the army lists else race specific rules such as Tau and carbines.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on April 30, 2017, 02:21:02 PM
It would seem logical to me that there would have to be an increase in pistol type weaponry for certain races.

The change to the rules for cover seems okay to me.  It's logical that that heavily armoured troops should be difficult to remove from fortified positions.

It's far too early to be thinking about the availability of heavy weapons.  This hasn't been disclosed and may well be very different to how it is now in terms of upgrade weapons for units and how much they cost.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Roboknee77 on April 30, 2017, 02:41:03 PM
The pistol rule sounds really intriguing to me as an Ork player.  It sounds like Slugga Boys will be able to shot at who they are locked in combat with in the shooting phase and then still fight in close combat in the assault phase.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 30, 2017, 06:44:51 PM
https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/370270193367965/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE (https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/370270193367965/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE)

Oh man, the hype game is real!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on April 30, 2017, 07:28:37 PM
http://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/370270193367965/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE (http://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/370270193367965/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE)

Oh man, the hype game is real!

The ultra-ultra marines! I suspect the rumored larger marines in the new starter will be these special bigger new marines.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on April 30, 2017, 08:15:43 PM
It's about time they made pistols worth it. Like that ruling a lot. Makes assault marines a bit better.

The 1" no shoot zone is a cool idea as well.

A *little* grumpy that moving Vehicles got a BS reduction, but I'm guessing that might worked around in certain ways. If they've removed the restrictions on the number of guns you can fire, it'll be a wash.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on April 30, 2017, 08:18:28 PM

A *little* grumpy that moving Vehicles got a BS reduction, but I'm guessing that might worked around in certain ways. If they've removed the restrictions on the number of guns you can fire, it'll be a wash.

Better only being able to shoot one gun. If tanks are going to be a lot tougher, then they'll need some restrictions.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on April 30, 2017, 11:20:14 PM
These were only general statements. They didn't say if fast, skimmer, or fast skimmers would have the same restrictions.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 1, 2017, 12:26:14 AM
Wow, cover now added to armour save, I did not see that one coming.
That's huge!

It seems like the basic rules once again got tailored to marines.
Standard marines in hard cover will be untouchable with basic weapons, same thing for terminators in soft cover.
If 2++ with re-roll was bad, it just got worse. :(

I will also from now on refer to close combat to "the pistol phase".
Heavy weapons will be even more available, the phrase
"tread lightly and carry a big gun" echoed in rules format. :(

Yes, but they also noted a bunch of weapon ignore that bonus, it kind of sounded like weapons that would previously have been a blast template might go back to ignoring that bonus save, which would make a fair amount of sense.

Given the boltgun lost its AP value, cover adding to armour saves sounds kind of wierd. Especially if they applied that logic to other troop guns, suddenly Power armour needs insane amounts of fire power to kill in cover. Then again Dark Eldar finally get a half decent save ;)

Kind of sounds like its going to be CC infantry and whatever can carry a heavy weapon edition lol.

Corsair brace pistols just got awesome... hopefully it is still a thing. Still it is an interesting options, fire a single shot pistol or make 2 lower strength attacks..

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 1, 2017, 07:23:06 AM
What makes these new marines different to the old ones besides the increase in size and maybe better gear?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 07:40:21 AM


Corsair brace pistols just got awesome... hopefully it is still a thing. Still it is an interesting options, fire a single shot pistol or make 2 lower strength attacks..

Remember, that shooting pistols is in the shooting phase. Doesn't replace melee attacks in the assault phase.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 1, 2017, 07:45:14 AM
Hmmm. This is probably the first time I'm not happy about a rules change... given what I know thus far. -1 to Vehicles shooting on the move seems VERY tough. I mean isn't mobile heavy weapons the purpose of vehicles? Hopefully they have a higher BS or whatever to compensate.

I get what Killersquid is saying... in that if vehicles are harder to kill, there should be a drawback. But I'm not sure how much tougher vehicles are going to be to kill. Still haven't seen the standard how many wounds your standard Leman Russ will have and also the cost and availability of special+heavy weapons which can take these vehicles down... but I was hoping for more mobility and more resilience particularly on Imperial Vehicles. Hopefully thats still coming and at the cost of a little accuracy.

I'm sure the playtesters, especially the Frontline + Nova guys made sure this works properly... but it does concern me a bit.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 1, 2017, 08:02:28 AM
It may well be that vehicles will hit more easily than infantry when it comes to heavy weapons.  At this juncture, we just don't know, so I would not be overly concerned about this issue.  Trying to balance vehicles and infantry is not that easy, thus there is always bound to be some sort of trade-off.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 1, 2017, 09:13:08 AM
Don't despair.  Lots of vehicles have twin linked weapons which might help.  Others (former heavy vehicles and ones with p.o.t.m.s) might always count as stationary anyway. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 1, 2017, 10:50:20 AM
Another shooting phase was just announced (called the charge phase)
New Warhammer 40,000 – Charge Phase – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/01/new-warhammer-40000-charge-phasegw-homepage-post-4/)
I guess they have something big planned for the fight phase, maybe D6 hits for each Attack characteristic, or melee is squatted.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 1, 2017, 11:14:02 AM
Overwatch is still in the game?  Damn, now I've just had my first disappointment with 8th edition.

No, I shall stay positive.  It will probably work better.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 1, 2017, 11:17:02 AM
It's like the charge phase in Age of Sigmar.  This suggests to me that melée weapons are going to have a range characteristic.  Given the length of some melée weapons in 40K that could make for some interesting close combat situations.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 11:19:17 AM
Never had an issue with Overwatch. *Shrug*

Big boost for charging units is you only need to make it within 1", not base to base. Basically a free extra inch to all charges.


hor melee is squatted.

The salt is strong with this one.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 1, 2017, 11:41:03 AM
With the exception of the Tau, I don't think Overwatch is any worse here than it was in the past two editions (and it really isn't that bad the vast majority of the time).

As for the Tau, well... :o
I have to assume they're planning to ditch Supporting Fire as a rule, because otherwise things are just going to be very, very silly (and they already are pretty silly).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 1, 2017, 12:51:07 PM
Really bummed with the Charge Phase. Always hated random charge distance and Overwatch hurt my Quins so bad, I just never returned to them.  :-\

Being able to use Overwatch more than once per turn/unit is just hilarious.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 1, 2017, 01:19:16 PM
Movement plus D6 would have been nice.  Just like running.  Because it is running.  Both here and in AoS.  But you can't have it all.  C'est la guerre.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 01:33:49 PM
Really bummed with the Charge Phase. Always hated random charge distance and Overwatch hurt my Quins so bad, I just never returned to them.  :-\

Being able to use Overwatch more than once per turn/unit is just hilarious.

Harlequins didn't exist before random charge distances. Also, it's pretty awesome for Harlequins as they have fleet. Odds of getting 8+" charges is pretty high.

I've been doing pretty well with Harlequins in tournaments, Overwatch and random charges are not bad.

Also, multiple Overwatch is only going to happen if the first unit charging fails their charge. 90% of the time, it won't make any difference.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 1, 2017, 01:56:23 PM

Harlequins didn't exist before random charge distances.
Oh, yes they did. ;) Back in 2nd, eldar could take them as allies from their codex or be run as a force on their own.
M6 harlequins, could advance 12" during the movement phase (forfeiting shooting and assault doubled your movement), granting models moving over 10" a -1 to hit which stacked with their psychotrophic grenade launcher, which gave another -1 to hit, this made them impossible to hit for orks.

But back on topic, considering melee is dead, I think random charges makes sense, only tough MC's will charge anyway, having them trip on a treeroot is hilarious IMHO.
I think western gunfight standoffs with pistols might actually be neat, it's the WW2 trenches I find boring.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 02:08:19 PM
Oh, yes they did. ;) Back in 2nd, eldar could take them as allies from their codex or be run as a force on their own.
M6 harlequins, could advance 12" during the movement phase (forfeiting shooting and assault doubled your movement), granting models moving over 10" a -1 to hit which stacked with their psychotrophic grenade launcher, which gave another -1 to hit, this made them impossible to hit for orks.


But they were not in the game as their own army durring the switch from 6"charge to 2d6.

What they did during 2nd edition is irrelevant.

Quote
But back on topic, considering melee is dead, I think random charges makes sense, only tough MC's will charge anyway, having them trip on a treeroot is hilarious IMHO.
I think western gunfight standoffs with pistols might actually be neat, it's the WW2 trenches I find boring.

I still have no idea why you think melee is dead. Besides a need for hyperbole.

Also, models will still strike with melee weapons in the assault phase. Pistol shots are in the shooting phase.



Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 1, 2017, 02:29:40 PM
@Killersquid: Let's explain why melee is dead then.
- You can shoot in the shooting phase without suffering casualties.
- You can shoot witchfire in the psychic phase, usually no suffering here either.
- You can shoot pistols if you choose not to run away from combat, and get entangled.
compare this to
- You can strike in melee with your units, but potentially you will need to alternate this with getting hit.
- Once in melee, your opposing unit(s) can just walk away or shoot you in the face with pistols.

Then you should consider the effective range of a bolter comparred to a chainsword:
Boltgun = move + range = 30" or 18" for an extra shot.
Chainsword = move + assault = 14" (including the 1" bonus).
Even if you count add on a bolt pistol to the chainsword it still does not add up to the power of a boltgun.

Edit: I forgot Overwatch, that's even more shooting, how about overwatching with powerswords?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on May 1, 2017, 03:49:53 PM
Killersquid:
A player could choose to have a Harlequin army in 2nd ed. They didn't have their own codex, but they could stand alone if you chose. Same as the Pirates, (now Corsairs), and Exodites.
Back then the Blood Angels and Dark Angels shared the same codex, and they were still stand alone armies.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 03:55:09 PM
Killersquid:
A player could choose to have a Harlequin army in 2nd ed. They didn't have their own codex, but they could stand alone if you chose. Same as the Pirates, (now Corsairs), and Exodites.
Back then the Blood Angels and Dark Angels shared the same codex, and they were still stand alone armies.

That's not at all relevant to what we are talking about.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 1, 2017, 03:58:09 PM
I want to point something out in regards to the new rules for pistols and CC:

"You also can’t shoot if there is an enemy with 1″ of you. The exception to this rule is pistols. Models with these hand-held firearms can shoot at the closest enemy target in the Shooting phase, even if they themselves are locked in combat! "

Based on the quote, it sounds like pistols can be fired in the shooting phase, even if you're in combat. The unit you're in combat with, being the closest target, can be fired upon. Thus, it sounds like you get to shoot pistols, and make melee attacks against the unit you're in combat with. I feel this will be more clear when they talk about the fight phase next. I'm curious if pistols will still count as an extra CCW and add an extra attack or not. If they change the way attacks are done in general, it might not even matter.

In regards to the worries of vehicles moving and shooting - I feel this was a very broad statement. I would suspect, and hope, that fast/skimmers/fast-skimmers would still have some sort of shooting advantages for moving at more normal speeds. It sounded more like they get a disadvantage moving faster than their normal speeds.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 04:04:43 PM
The only changes we know about so far, from 7th are two things.

1. Pistols can be shot into melee in the shooting phase
2. Units can choose to leave combat in the movement phase, but forgot all other actions in the turn.

I don't see how this makes combat obsolete.

Assault armies have pistols, so they actually can use them now.

Leaving combat makes one of your opponents units useless for the turn, and you get free shots at them.

Also, melee weapons are better at killing then ranged weapons are (at least in 7th). I'll expect that'll remain the same.

Based on this, I don't see how the change from 7th to 8th breaks combat.

With charges needing 1" less to make charges, it's actually going to be easier to get into melee.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 1, 2017, 04:17:24 PM

So, the first two are no different from any previous edition. So, apparently assault was dead since 6th edition.

Both players can shoot pistols. The assault units tend to have more of them. And then they have better melee weapons too.

Alternative activation takes place after all charging units attack, and is not a big deal. Again, advantage for the melee army.

If they walk away, they cannot do anything else that turn. If they shoot pistols, then you'll clobber them with your melee weapons. Again, not an issue.

Also, pistols are not something all units have. It's only assault units, and marines. Not a big deal.

Ranges of weapons is no different to now. My Harlequins are a melee army, but I've rarely lost to marines. No matter how many of their points they spent on bolters.

I play Harlequins and Chaos marines. These changes are not going to change the relevance of close combat at all.

But, please by all means, claim the sky is calling.

-Nope the first 2 are not the same, now everyone has smite by default. and witchfires have increased in power every edition since 6th or even further.
-Both players cannot shoot pistols, as it can only be done during your own phase, this could not be done in 7th ed or any edition since possibly 3rd ed or earlier.
-Many assault units do have pistols, but they are shooting weapons not melee weapons.
-Sure assault units often have upgraded melee weapons just like really shooty units carry upgraded shooting weapons.
- concerning activation a small nerf is still a nerf not a boon.
-If they walk away from melee they are out for 1 turn, before they often got run down, and got killed, that is another nerf to melee.
-If a unit stays in melee and shoots their pistols, they are likely not bad in melee, you said it yourself many assault units have pistols, that makes many units with pistols are in fact assault oriented units.
- Most harlequins and chaos marines kill what they assault, or at the very least force them to flee. Still your harlequins will likely suffer when crafty players starts to assault your harlequins instead, as they can now hit the harlequins first in melee.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 1, 2017, 04:35:58 PM
You know what. We are not going to change eachothers minds.

You're free to make whatever claims you want with incomplete information.

I find it impossible, especially with all the playtesting 8th has had, that they'd neglect a huge part of the game like that.

But, if you'd rather be satly, then go for it.

Who knows, maybe when it's released you'll be right, but it is premature to make such claims until the rules are released. Easy to make bold claims, when you have only part of the facts.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 1, 2017, 05:43:05 PM
Yeah, I'll reserve all serious judgement until the game is released. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 1, 2017, 06:17:11 PM
My concern with units being to walk away from combat is more like this example:

A trukk load of Boyz assaults my unit Immortals. Generally I have some survive. This is good for the Ork player as I can't shoot his Boyz. Now I can run away with that weakened squad of Boyz, and blast them to bits with any other unit I have.

This isn't limited to this specific example, and happens often with many mixtures of armies at my LGS.

Not saying this will be bad. It requires a change in tactics for each player.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 1, 2017, 06:25:30 PM
8th edition will see a lot of Melee units die, because in your opponents turn they will run away, leaving your CC unit standing in the open like morons as the rest of the army turns them into pink mist.

I suspect due to the increased risk GW's next announcement will add a buff to Melee to make it worth while. If they don't then Melee is simply too risky and cumbersome to do with anything less than Marines and that is assuming all standard troop guns have lost their AP.

-1 for tanks moving and shooting makes sense, how often do you see perfectly flat surfaces in war zones lol. For a bunch of armies, it's still a 50% chance to hit and by the sounds of it, they are going to hang around for a while. It will be interesting to see what they do for fast skimmers and other mechanics like holofields which require you to move.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 1, 2017, 09:59:26 PM
You know what. We are not going to change eachothers minds.

You're free to make whatever claims you want with incomplete information.

I find it impossible, especially with all the playtesting 8th has had, that they'd neglect a huge part of the game like that.

But, if you'd rather be satly, then go for it.

Who knows, maybe when it's released you'll be right, but it is premature to make such claims until the rules are released. Easy to make bold claims, when you have only part of the facts.
Agreed, we won't change each others mind.
When I make a statement it's always based on what information I have, and can be changed once I get more information. I haven't given up hope yet, even though: "Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment" :)

Not directed @Killerquid:

GW have been saying they have playtested everything for every new edition and their record is sadly not so good, this time though it seems like they have consulted the community, which gives it a higher potential.
Still I see people in the community that seems to just wants to see the game burn making loud comments like. "Noone uses a knife or sword in real wars" while that is true, playing a game that is identical to reality takes a lot of fun out of it IMHO.
I mean Xenos don't exist in reality (,at least not that we know of  ;))

Regarding tanks and shooting, I wouldn't mind them getting a -1 to hit for each weapon in addition to the first. So a vehicle with 3 weapons, could hit on 3+ with the first weapon, 4+ with the second and 5+ with the third. I'd then like to leave it to the player in which order the weapons would be fired. Maybe an additional -1 to hit could grant them splitfire? Tank, skimmer & fast or stationary keywords could simply ignore one of these minuses each, just like that Tau upgrade or POTMS eldar spiritstones etc. That would mean a landraider could fire 3 weapons at a single target or 2 weapons at 2 different targets without penalty.
However these are just my personal guesses.
We'll have to wait and see, maybe damaged vehicles will get to hit penalties rather than losing guns.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 1, 2017, 10:28:41 PM
I a really hoping to see what they reveal tomorrow on CC.... as of right now I am very concerned....

If I have a unit of wyches charge something, that unit gets to shoot at me a la over-watch (which is standard I know). Then we resolve combat. Assuming they are still alive, one of two things then happens..

1) The unit may fall back, allowing the rest of his army to shred my girls
2) he stays in combat, but in the shooting phase the unit I am locked with shoots up my girls

Then, assuming he stayed in cc, and I have any wyches left, we go to combat again.

Oh, and the removal of the Initiative stat means that we strike at the same time? (In 2nd round and on)

If that is the case, wyches either need some serious buffs (i.e. 5+ armor save and 4+ cover dodge save that stacks to give them a 2+ cover enhanced save) and/or they need to be 4 pts per model. Or they need to bring back rolling assaults. If I can charge 2-4 units, killing each before my girls die, I'll be happy that you can leave combat and shoot me up in your turn.  8)


TBH - we still don't know if leaving combat is on a test of some sort. Or if sweeping advances are entirely gone. Or so much else about 8th ed... So I hold out hope...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 1, 2017, 10:38:24 PM
From the rumors I've seen, the charging unit strikes first (so, Wyches in most cases) and the Wyches get to shoot their pistols in combat *too,* which might mitigate their problems wounding high-T targets a bit.

But yeah, we have no idea even what the Wych statline will be, so getting worried is perhaps a bit premature.

Along with these general rules, we have to also assume all of the units in every codex are, on some level, getting a bit re-balanced to reflect the new play environment. Who knows--maybe grenades will get better? Maybe Wych Weapons will make a comeback. Maybe combat drugs will be superior. Just too many variables.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 2, 2017, 01:05:11 AM
I want to be excited. I should be excited. I'm not because I dislike AoS and am more scared I'm losing both of my favorite games to badly streamlined rules. Please, please let me be wrong. Now fixing my wyches just might get me excited about it as well as my 60 some odd hellions.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 2, 2017, 07:29:41 AM
Really bummed with the Charge Phase. Always hated random charge distance and Overwatch hurt my Quins so bad, I just never returned to them.  :-\

Being able to use Overwatch more than once per turn/unit is just hilarious.

Harlequins didn't exist before random charge distances. Also, it's pretty awesome for Harlequins as they have fleet. Odds of getting 8+" charges is pretty high.

I've been doing pretty well with Harlequins in tournaments, Overwatch and random charges are not bad.

Also, multiple Overwatch is only going to happen if the first unit charging fails their charge. 90% of the time, it won't make any difference.

It seems I misunderstood how that Overwatch thing is going to work. My bad.

Still not a fan of the 2d6 charge though - I would have guessed that with the reintrocduction of a Move value, we could go back to something less random. Anyways, thats not going to happen unless GW decides to listen to all the unhappy players voicing their dislike for random charge distances.

I realize that Quins haven't been around for long (I wasn't talking bout 2nd :)) and yes, that's how it's always been for them. It just drove me mad to lose more models to Overwatch than actual shooting. 2d6 and Overwatch always felt like it's based on luck. I have no problem losing units and games because of my bad decisions but with my Harlies, it always felt like losing to random rolls, which made me really angry :(. I mean, we all lost that game where you rolled 5 instead of 7 which would have resulted in a glorious vitory. Things like that just should not happen in my view.

Still, I don't think all is doom and gloom but that latest bit info was rather disappointing to a lot of people it seems.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 2, 2017, 08:12:34 AM
I like 2d6 charges. It helps assault-based armies a lot, as you can potentially make some pretty crazy charge distances. Harlequins (with fleet and ignoring terrain), are probably the best at making the long charges. I've made a silly amount of 10+" charges due to fleet. I would hate for a fixed charge distance, as then with pre-measuring it becomes a game of cat and mouse.

Move based charge distances would be insane, as units with a 12" move can then move 12 and charge 12 (or 12+d6). which would be insane. A unit moving between 12-28" reliably would be bonkers

Overwatch helps both sides. I've had overwatch work for me, and it's easy to manipulate as well. Charge in with a tougher unit first (to soak the overwatch), or with an expendable character, to keep squad's safer.

I've played, and won against armies like Eldar and Tau, overwatch can hurt, but it's not a big deal. I've had my own shooting save my bacon as well.

*Shrug*

The only time I'm afraid of overwatch, is when fighting Dark Angels Lions Blade, or flamers. But, as both of those will be changing, I don't know what to expect in the future.

My biggest wonder about 8th edition, is if we'll see pirovores on the table for the first time!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 2, 2017, 09:44:55 AM
My biggest wonder about 8th edition, is if we'll see pirovores on the table for the first time!

Oh, yes! I really hope this edition saves Tyranids somehow. I think the elimination of AV helps in that regard a LOT, but we'll see.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 2, 2017, 10:24:12 AM
And the decline of the melee continues, now you can't even start fighting in all of your successful charges:
New Warhammer 40,000 – Fight Phase – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/02/new-warhammer-40000-fight-phase-may2gw-homepage-post-4/)
The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Alienscar on May 2, 2017, 10:54:52 AM
1) The unit may fall back, allowing the rest of his army to shred my girls
2) he stays in combat, but in the shooting phase the unit I am locked with shoots up my girls

Man the rules haven't even been properly released yet and it looks like I don't fully understand them.

Quote from: Warhammer Community
Pistols: When picking a target, you won’t be able to shoot enemies that are in combat with other units, much like the current edition. However, you can fall back from combat in your Movement phase, allowing other units to fire at your opponent at the expense of your own actions this turn.

The way I read this is (underlined for emphasis) that if you stay locked in combat your unit is safe from shooting.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 2, 2017, 11:03:54 AM
I'm goning to say again, that there are three things we don't know yet.

1. The core rules
2. Data sheet rules for units
3. Points for units

Without all three things, it's impossible to guess the balance of the game. We are going to need to wait until the game is released, before we know anyway.

Until then, I think it's great get is teasing us with some of the changes, instead of keeping us in the dark.

However, I wish they didn't, as it's causing a lot of unnecessary panic.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 2, 2017, 11:12:21 AM
The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.

Horde armies won't necessarily gain an advantage from those rules, unless the models involved are also very good in close combat.  This system is clearly based on Age of Sigmar, and having a large horde fighting close combat specialists didn't work out well for me there, so a I would urge caution before championing the rise of horde armies at this stage.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 2, 2017, 12:01:37 PM
But am I the only one who read through that article wondering what exactly they are saying? I guess that "activation" thing is from AoS and I have a vague idea how it might work. I would have hoped for more info for the amount of words they used though  :P Looking forward to see how exactly this will work within the context of the full rules.


Killersquid, I appreciate your view on things, makes me reconsider my own. I see how using the M stat for charging would cause problems. I guess the bottom line is "I don't like random things" and would have preferred even a flat 6 or so inches instead of 2d6 (where 7-8 inches is the average distance rolled). Guess I'll just have to field my clowns more often; I lost about 12 out of 15 games with them vs. low tier armies, that I easily beat with both CWE and Deldar.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 2, 2017, 12:09:20 PM
But am I the only one who read through that article wondering what exactly they are saying? I guess that "activation" thing is from AoS and I have a vague idea how it might work. I would have hoped for more info for the amount of words they used though  :P Looking forward to see how exactly this will work within the context of the full rules.


Combat will end up working like this.

Let say 3 units charge.

All three of those units strike first, in whichever combats they are in (owning players choice). After that, players alternate activating units to attack, in whichever combats they are in, untill all units attack.

This is how it works in aos,besides charging gong first. It's actually really engaging way to do combats, and quite tactical. It's one of my favourite mechanics in aos.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 2, 2017, 12:10:55 PM
And the decline of the melee continues, now you can't even start fighting in all of your successful charges:
What?  I'm not sure we read the same article, because they make it very clear that charging units strike first, and then once you have resolved your charges you then move on to alternating activation.

The 3" pile to drag in more units are just another boon for horde-style armies, as removing the templates wasn't enough.
IG/AM is going to be hard to face this edition.
It's a boon for all assault armies that rely on units that are larger than a few models.  A 10 man unit can engage multiple units if positioned correctly, while only getting hit by one overwatch.  This part is pretty much dictating that position is back to being vital to success in the game.  You want to bubblewrap an important unit?  You need to take into consideration the possible charge distance of the enemy plus the consolidation to ensure they don't make it to engage what you're trying to protect.

You guys are complaining about units voluntarily leaving combat to leave your assault units hanging in the wind.  One unit being left useless, I can understand the frustration.  What about three units that leave combat that are doing nothing for the turn?  It's not likely, but it certainly is possible with a 10 man squad.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Alienscar on May 2, 2017, 12:58:23 PM
It's a boon for all assault armies that rely on units that are larger than a few models.  A 10 man unit can engage multiple units if positioned correctly, while only getting hit by one overwatch.

One overwatch? Is this another rule I have misunderstood!

Quote from: Warhammer Community
You also can’t move within 1″ of an enemy you didn’t declare as the target of your charge, so if you want to engage multiple units, you’ll need to brave the overwatch fire of all of them. Overwatch can also be fired multiple times per phase, but as soon as the unit is engaged, they will no longer be able to fire back.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on May 2, 2017, 01:04:05 PM
You charge one unit, but with your 3" pile in move when you activate to attack, you can move into other units within 3".
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 2, 2017, 02:49:33 PM
@Killersquid: Sorry if I sound too negative, while my main army (Eldar) does not rely on melee, I'd like to start using some of the units that are currently collecting dust like howling banshees, which has been nerfed every edition since 4th, in which they were balanced but were probably too good against MEQ, so many complained, and GW listened to those complains.

About activation, if it's a set number of units to strike first for the player who's current turn it is, it doesn't scale very well when using either small or large armies.

@GML: a 10 man unit can certainly lock up 3 units, but a 30 man unit is going to have a much easier time to do just that. Not to mention a blob of 50.
Since grots, gaunts and conscripts are essentially cannon fodder, allowing them to lock up 2 or more shooty units is gold worth, and worst case scenario, the opponent will just back off and will sooner or later run out of space to withdraw to.
Say 30 grots charge into a unit of assaultmarines, but at the same time locking up 2 units of 5 tactical marines, with the 3" pile in move. Now they are going to be a fleshwall much longer than if shot at by the tactical marines. With a unit of 5 terminators it's much harder to achieve.
Locking up 3 units also makes it less plausible that those marines and assault marines will leave combat, because winning the combat might be more profitable, that will always be a tough tactical decision.

@Irisado: While I do not know the rules of AoS, but from what I've heard of them it seems like 40k is getting a lot of them. As for the elite CC units beating the hordes I hope that moves over to 40k as well. However I think it' a bit more complex than elite or horde units. Fragile elite units will likely suffer from the new rules (like banshees) while more sturdy (like khorne berzerkers) will prevail, not only because they are sturdy, but they are also focused on making several attacks, comparred to assault terminators for example.


@Everyone: Where I don't have the new rules I will fill in the gaps with the current rules, as the announced ruleschanges are probably the biggest changes. So don't just read my words out of context, because it's not that doomy & gloomy.
I am happy that we will get a new edition and a shake up of the balance, but there are sadly several missed opportunities for GW that I'm pointing out, and some things that changed in the opposite direction of what I was hoping for.
I'm also worried about how the (wound+toughness+armour)/squareinch footprint is going to work out in the new edition.
I think guardsmen in chimeras might have a quite high value in that department, which seems to be a more and more important thing. Combine that with lots of shooting and cannon fodder units, thats the reason I think IG/AM will do well in this edition. I wouldn't be surprised if rhinorush returns as well. ATM we will just have to wait and see.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 2, 2017, 03:02:05 PM
One overwatch? Is this another rule I have misunderstood!

From the Fight Phase article:
Quote
This can be used to get within 1″ of other enemy units, if you’re cunning, dragging more foes into the melee and preventing them from shooting next turn, even if you didn’t charge them directly (giving them no chance to overwatch).



About activation, if it's a set number of units to strike first for the player who's current turn it is, it doesn't scale very well when using either small or large armies.
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with this.  How does "charging units strike first" not scale well to small or large armies?

@GML: a 10 man unit can certainly lock up 3 units, but a 30 man unit is going to have a much easier time to do just that. Not to mention a blob of 50.
Since grots, gaunts and conscripts are essentially cannon fodder, allowing them to lock up 2 or more shooty units is gold worth, and worst case scenario, the opponent will just back off and will sooner or later run out of space to withdraw to.
Say 30 grots charge into a unit of assaultmarines, but at the same time locking up 2 units of 5 tactical marines, with the 3" pile in move. Now they are going to be a fleshwall much longer than if shot at by the tactical marines. With a unit of 5 terminators it's much harder to achieve.
Locking up 3 units also makes it less plausible that those marines and assault marines will leave combat, because winning the combat might be more profitable, that will always be a tough tactical decision.
I wasn't disagreeing that it would help horde armies.  They absolutely need the boost right now, because even the Green Tide needs a boost.  I'm just saying that it will benefit all assault forces now, as well.

@Everyone: Where I don't have the new rules I will fill in the gaps with the current rules, as the announced ruleschanges are probably the biggest changes. So don't just read my words out of context, because it's not that doomy & gloomy.
I think that is the biggest issue you are having.  You are trying to apply the rules of today to fill the gaps of a system that is entirely different.  That would be akin to applying the rules of 40k to fill in the gaps of your knowledge for X-wing.  It just doesn't work.

I'm also worried about how the (wound+toughness+armour)/squareinch footprint is going to work out in the new edition.
I think guardsmen in chimeras might have a quite high value in that department, which seems to be a more and more important thing. Combine that with lots of shooting and cannon fodder units, thats the reason I think IG/AM will do well in this edition. I wouldn't be surprised if rhinorush returns as well. ATM we will just have to wait and see.

Has that ever been a concern?  Guard have always excelled then, by that matrix, but you rarely see Guard in a competitive environment now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 2, 2017, 06:52:58 PM
The biggest thing to me is these specialty weapons and how they will effect combat. I, and many others, foresee shard nets stopping your opponent from leaving combat.

Also, I am curious.... when getting the 3" pile in move, is says you have to move towards the closest enemy unit... can you ignore the one you just charged or is the idea that in the process of charging the unit you can position yourself to take advantage of that..


Say you move to within 3" of a tac squad... and 10" behind that is a dev squad. My girls roll for a 10" charge... could I move past the tac squad, engaging with one model, and within 3" of the Dev .. then in the activation phase make up the rest of that distance!

If I am reading that right, that is pretty big. I have always felt that positioning should be key to winning the game, and this may help bring that back. Makes CC a challenging and potentially very rewarding aspect of the game again
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 2, 2017, 07:37:42 PM
Also, I am curious.... when getting the 3" pile in move, is says you have to move towards the closest enemy unit... can you ignore the one you just charged or is the idea that in the process of charging the unit you can position yourself to take advantage of that..


Say you move to within 3" of a tac squad... and 10" behind that is a dev squad. My girls roll for a 10" charge... could I move past the tac squad, engaging with one model, and within 3" of the Dev .. then in the activation phase make up the rest of that distance!

If I am reading that right, that is pretty big. I have always felt that positioning should be key to winning the game, and this may help bring that back. Makes CC a challenging and potentially very rewarding aspect of the game again

No, as you called the tac squad as your charge option.

You also only get the pile in move on activation, so if you charged the tac squad and a Dev squad was 2 inches to the left or right, you could spill over into them. I would also imagine, there will be a restriction that those already engaged (what would have been base to base contact) wouldn't be able to move, so the 3 inches would be calculated from the sides or rear models in the unit.

The charging unit always striking first is also dumb, completely illogical. It would have made more sense that the subsequent combat turns be resolved at the same time. As is, the only reason to stay in combat is if you need the first power to kill something else first, other wise, fall back and drill the unit.

I'll reserve judgement until I see the weapon effects, but really its looking like Tau players should be jumping for joy at the moment.




Charging unit always going first is just dumb. It just encourages the unit to flee and let the other gun drill them. At the moment, Melee is just sacrificing a unit to slow your opponent down and soaking up fire, the Melee weapons effects might change that a bit.


if melee weapons turn out to be awesome, then Necros will be cheering, no more hitting last lol :)

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 3, 2017, 10:51:20 AM
Info on Morale is up! New Warhammer 40,000 – Morale – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/03/new-warhammer-40000-morale/)

And it looks very promising in my view! Lets say a squad of 10 Tac Marines loses 3 models in a turn, they would roll a d6, add those 3 losses and then remove more models, depending on the roll. Since we know that Marines have Ld7, they would then remove another 2 models in case they roll a 6, right? Really looking forward to see what certain units get for LD value. Especially with expensive and/or fragile units. Will also be interesting to see how this works with larger Mobs of Orks and Nids.

And of course this will be very interesting when it comes to ICs and how they affect the units around them.

Does this mechanic work well in AoS? Could some of you AoS players give a little insight please?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 3, 2017, 10:58:40 AM
I'm not a massive fan of this morale system, but it has the vital merit of being simple and I'd argue that it's better suited to 40K than to Age of Sigmar.  It was too much of a departure from the Fantasy system of ranks and formations acting as a whole, but for 40K where squads have always adopted a loose formation it is, in my opinion, likely to be more successful.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 3, 2017, 11:23:51 AM
Now that's actually really nice, I like the new morale rules a lot.  :D

 Firstly it takes away disagreements on wether a unit did take a morale test or not. And if a player has started his own turn, it's too late to claim any morale tests should be taken by the other player.
Just like in monopoly if you fail to cash in your rent before you roll the dices, no rent can be charged. Opportunity missed!

 Secondly armour does not impact wether you loose a model or not, a fleeing terminator runs away just as much as a grot once they have failed their Ld test. In previous Combat resolution morale tests, good armour was a thing.

"Thirdly?"(might even split into two reasons) small elite units does not run away just because they lost a percentage of their unit, it also saves some calculations, and removes morale optimized unit sizes.

"Fourthly?"Single models left as stragglers not fleeing, by default becomes immune to morale.

Sure elite units may loose extra models, but that just make the Ld value just as important as toughness or armour save to stay on the board.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 3, 2017, 12:04:35 PM
I like it too. I do wonder how (and if) the old "And They Shall Know No Fear" thing will apply to various marine factions. If it doesn't reassert itself, it will be weird playing in a world where Astartes might run off.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 3, 2017, 05:41:52 PM
Does this mechanic work well in AoS? Could some of you AoS players give a little insight please?

It works very well!  In AoS units gain +1 to their bravery (leadership) for every ten models in the unit, lessening the impact on big units of weaker troops.  Hopefully 40k will use this too.  They also gain bonuses to bravery for having banners.  And it's not always just +1

The only thing you need to bare in mind is remembering how many casualties a unit suffered in a turn.  It's not too hard though. 

And it's so easy just plucking a model or two away rather than going through the whole rigmarole of moving a retreating unit back only to regroup it immediately.  Straight to the point! 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on May 3, 2017, 11:07:24 PM
I like the morale it is very similar to the fearless approach of 5th edition which worked well.   Now it will streamline morale even more which definately was a great idea.   

I see nothing but good things from this change.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 4, 2017, 12:53:13 AM
Deathwing running,hmm,that sounds strange. Wraith lords running away, wierd. Talos, hmm. Wraiths, dreadnaughts, just anything that is fearless now, ogie bogie strange. Not sure that's gonna make sense but I guess if it works, we shall see. I think "shall know no fear" should just allow unmodified ld tests, but that's just me.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 4, 2017, 02:18:02 AM
I think something like fearless units don't add the D6 and ATSKNF models add +1 instead of the D6.
That means you would have to kill 7/10 marines, to get one marine to flee, without buffs.
Considering full size marine units both get to "combat squad" and additional special weapons, and sometimes even a free transport, there is nothing unfair about it IMHO.

Fearless models that become casualties might just have become the victims of being buried in corpses, so they can't keep up.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 4, 2017, 04:30:45 AM
I don't think Dreads and Monstrous Creatures will have to take that sort of Ld test, because "models lost" not wounds. So I'm guessing they're pretty much "fearless" anyways.

When it comes to multiwound models (i.e. Terminators), you'd still count the models lost, not the wounds. So a squad of 5 Termies could lose 4 wounds (2 models) and still be immune to the Lead test since they have Ld8 (6+2=8). At least that's what I read into it.

Does this mechanic work well in AoS? Could some of you AoS players give a little insight please?

It works very well!  In AoS units gain +1 to their bravery (leadership) for every ten models in the unit, lessening the impact on big units of weaker troops.  Hopefully 40k will use this too.  They also gain bonuses to bravery for having banners.  And it's not always just +1

This sounds really interesting! The only downside I see is that 40k used to have rather small unit sizes compared to WHFB but it makes a lot of sense for amies that can field large units of 20+ models.

Looking at Space Marines with Ld7, would they - in AoS - get Ld8 when taken as a unit of 10 or would that require them to be 20 man strong?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 4, 2017, 05:20:03 AM
I think that we all need to look at morale for 40K differently from now on.  In the past, it has been perceived as units falling back.  For certain units, it will have to be understood as them being dragged down, crumbling to dust (e.g. Thousand Sons) or just being overwhelmed in some other way, rather than losing the will to stand and fight.  That's the way I'm making sense of it in my mind at least.

For anyone who wants to see the comparisons with Age of Sigmar rules, the best place to look is here (https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-Age-of-Sigmar-Rules?_requestid=1177893).  They are free, so it's easy to find the answers and removes the need to quote them here, which is preferable to avoid in any case :).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 4, 2017, 07:59:17 AM
Pretty shocking rules for morale! I was stunned in fact... had to read it a couple times to see if I understood it properly. All of a sudden morale is of HUGE importance which I like... but I have to admit playing with an Aspect Host for so long I never even though about morale for the most part. Looks like I better start considering it.

Very happy to see them mention the now increased importance of units which can effect morale... like the Hemlock for the Eldar which was good in 7th edition, but the Mindshock pod was of minimal value unless your were running a Leadership Shenanigan list. Now it'll be helpful in all situations... even more so if you are running a Leadership Shenanigan list which I'm presuming they are trying to nurture. From FW to GW it was a consistent theme across all the Eldar factions, Corsair, Craftworld, Dark Eldar and Harlequins. I hope it continues...

Fascinating stuff and I'm in love with the simplicity of it... though I'm sure it'll be brutal when it backlashes against in you in game. Can't wait to see how everything shakes out. Fantastic stuff so far

EDIT: Also hopefully this a good portent for the resurgence of Sniper units. I've got 15 Rangers (10 fully painted) I want them to be wreaking morale havoc across the battlefield. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 4, 2017, 09:07:46 AM
With each of these updates, I keep trying to predict which army I'm going to play in 8th. At the moment, I can't quite decide.I feel like so *many* armies will be viable again!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Roy on May 4, 2017, 09:48:45 AM
This is actually exciting news.  :o

It might even lure me back to 40K.

How long have we been advocating for a living rulebook? At least a decade..

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 4, 2017, 02:06:08 PM
That's gonna leave a mark.
New Warhammer 40,000: The Great Rift – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/new-warhammer-40000-the-great-rift/)

Least the time line has staggered forward a bit.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 4, 2017, 09:01:15 PM
I'm not a massive fan of this morale system

Yeah I hear you, Moral should reduced effectiveness (-1 WS/BS etc) or running away scared, or in IG case, the officer shooting men lol, these make sense. Having hardened warriors literally getting scared to death on battlefield is just daft.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 4, 2017, 09:36:20 PM
Morale, not moral, the troops aren't stopping and considering whether they're the baddies during the middle of battle. Because the answer for each and every army is - yes you are.

The article itself states that the troopers aren't just sitting there amphetamine parrotting themselves in terror hoping the space easter bunny will pop over and make everything okay again. The lost models are also taking care of the wounded, the dead, dying from shock, becoming combat ineffective due to whatever, and also retreating from the area of operation. Broaden your imagination, grasshopper.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 5, 2017, 08:14:26 AM
Yeah I hear you

Just to clarify, even though it's far from my favourite aspect of the rule changes, I understand why they have a adopted the system which they have and it makes more sense for 40K than for Age of Sigmar in my opinion.  I will get used to it, but it is going to feel strange for a while.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on May 5, 2017, 08:31:54 AM
Every edition does, Irisado. We become used to a set of rules for 3/4 maybe even 5 years. Even the slightest shift in rules will feel strange. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 5, 2017, 08:45:50 AM
Every edition does, Irisado. We become used to a set of rules for 3/4 maybe even 5 years. Even the slightest shift in rules will feel strange.

To be fair, this is the biggest change in the rules since the 2nd/3rd Ed transition. Invalidating every codex hasn't happened since the late 1990s.

Overall, I'm looking forward to it, but this is a major paradigm shift. The game is going to wind up upended in ways we can't quite guess at yet.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 5, 2017, 01:31:09 PM
New Warhammer 40,000: Battle-forged Armies – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/05/new-warhammer-40000-battle-forged-armiesgw-homepage-post-4/)

What ever you do Irisado, don't look at the lower left symbol for the battlefield roles...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 5, 2017, 02:00:13 PM
That's gonna leave a mark.
New Warhammer 40,000: The Great Rift – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/04/new-warhammer-40000-the-great-rift/)

Least the time line has staggered forward a bit.

I'll say.  That's one substantial rift.  I'm much happier with this partial reshaping of the universe rather than the total overhaul (destruction) of the old Warhammer Fantasy map though.  At least rifts in space make for a convincing and, in my opinion, a more compelling narrative.  Warhammer 40,000 did need to move forward a bit too, as it had become too static for my tastes.

New Warhammer 40,000: Battle-forged Armies – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/05/new-warhammer-40000-battle-forged-armiesgw-homepage-post-4/)

What ever you do Irisado, don't look at the lower left symbol for the battlefield roles...

I was getting excited when they said that formations had vanished.  I'm trying to erase that lower left symbol from my mind :P.  That said, it could have been worse.  I'm not sure that I've fully understood this detachment concept.  Is it detachments within an army or is it the whole army?  I will have to re-read it again later. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 5, 2017, 03:42:38 PM
So flyers are in, but not fortifications  ???
I wonder if we may have some units moved to the flyer section, that are not currently flyers, but obviously has flight capabilities. Like Razor flocks?

Intresting that there is more HQ choices in these detachments, than currently. Maybe HQ choices may become more of a liability than buffs.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 5, 2017, 03:58:44 PM
So flyers are in, but not fortifications  ???

There's a battlefield role literally named fortification.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 5, 2017, 05:05:46 PM
So flyers are in, but not fortifications  ???

There's a battlefield role literally named fortification.
I meant in the shown detachments. There there is only flyers, no fortifications, but I guess fortifications are still without a faction. The word was that there are 14 detachments/formations in the rulebook, so there are probably a couple that will include fortifications.
Maybe fortifications and buildings will still have AV?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 5, 2017, 05:30:21 PM
Maybe fortifications and buildings will still have AV?
I doubt it.  They have flat out said that Armour Values are gone.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 5, 2017, 05:59:54 PM
Maybe fortifications and buildings will still have AV?
I doubt it.  They have flat out said that Armour Values are gone.
Do you have a link to that, because all I can find on the 40k community page is that vehicles including superheavies will have wounds rather than AV.
The notion of AV being gone may just be an interpretation, a very plausible one I admit, but not confirmed anywhere that I know of.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Changeyname on May 5, 2017, 07:11:28 PM
Do you have a link to that, because all I can find on the 40k community page is that vehicles including superheavies will have wounds rather than AV.
The notion of AV being gone may just be an interpretation, a very plausible one I admit, but not confirmed anywhere that I know of.
It's in the Warhammer TV Facebook page live FAQ video (https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/368356113559373/) somewhere... too close to bedtime for me to find the time stamp sorry but they definitely state that Vehicles (and MC's as well) have damage tables and wounds like the large monsters of AoS have with reduced effectiveness as they continue to get smacked around
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on May 5, 2017, 07:47:56 PM
I'm not a massive fan of this morale system

Yeah I hear you, Moral should reduced effectiveness (-1 WS/BS etc) or running away scared, or in IG case, the officer shooting men lol, these make sense. Having hardened warriors literally getting scared to death on battlefield is just daft.

The old fearless when losing CC they had to take X amount of wounds.   I think it may finally balance out power armored troops.  The space marine standard points cost with the ATSKNF, gernades, above average stats, and a great save have always been severely under priced in points IMHO.  Especially compared to other models.  Hopefully this balances that out some.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 5, 2017, 07:52:40 PM
I, for one, am very interested in what Command Points do. I hope it's a turn-long, army-wide benefit, like SM doctrines. If I gotta spend them for individual re-rolls, that would be lame.

Also, for as much as they say "formations are gone," I'd fully expect to see them show up again in codexes and supplements, albeit with different names/rules.

Edit: Command Points, not Strategy Points
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 5, 2017, 10:57:51 PM
Maybe fortifications and buildings will still have AV?
I doubt it.  They have flat out said that Armour Values are gone.
Do you have a link to that, because all I can find on the 40k community page is that vehicles including superheavies will have wounds rather than AV.
The notion of AV being gone may just be an interpretation, a very plausible one I admit, but not confirmed anywhere that I know of.
KillerSquid did a summary of the WHTV live Q&A that says no more AV - Eighth Edition News (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=230180.msg2762507#msg2762507)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 6, 2017, 03:21:09 AM
@Changeyname & GML: I have seen that video before and read through Killersquids summary. Neither one says "no more AV". They say AV is replaced with wounds for vehicles, superheavies, MC, GC etc. but never a general "AV is gone" nor is buildings or fortifications mentioned.
However they do say all models will have wounds, wether fortifications are considerred models or not, I have no clue.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 6, 2017, 06:14:10 AM
Quote
Q: Any specific rules around vehicles and armor values?
A: No armor value anymore. All models use the same type of stat line. Big tanks get wounded (all have a damage table and stats decrease). Different for every model. Keeps vehicles through the game. Str and Toughness works where everyone can hurt everyone. (sounds like AoS there)

Emphasis mine.  I don't know how you can interpret that in any way except for the fact that there are no more armour values.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 6, 2017, 07:12:40 AM
Quote from: Irisado
I was getting excited when they said that formations had vanished.  I'm trying to erase that lower left symbol from my mind :P.  That said, it could have been worse.  I'm not sure that I've fully understood this detachment concept.  Is it detachments within an army or is it the whole army?  I will have to re-read it again later.

I'm pretty sure the detachment is the entire army. From what I gather the images provided are examples of how you scale up your FOC. Basically you spend points on additional HQ + Troop slots to unlock additional slots on the FOC.

I really like this. This is basically how the Corsair Raiding Company worked. Where your Prince needs additional logistical support via HQ choices to coordinate the efforts of a larger force.

So its really points intensive to get those additional slots, while command points in theory will allow those unlocked slots formation like perks. The difference being you have to pay for it in points by increasing the base troops, more HQ's choices to coordinate the larger army and adhere to the FOC which I really like.

We'll have to see more... but I'm loving the direction. Its simple and seems to lend itself to good balance in terms of points expenditure for additional power. We'll just have to wait and see though
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 6, 2017, 09:53:12 AM
I would like to point out that in the three detachments they previewed, no LoW was permitted. So, at the smaller points level, it will be hard to get in a LoW. Furthermore, if we assume the detachments continue to scale up until LoW is an option, the mandatory choices also scale up.

A brigade requires a ton of investment, and even at that point there is no LoW. 3 HQ, elites, fast, and heavy, with 6 troops mandatory - that effectively removes LoW from low point games. And at a Brigade level, there is still no LoW.

This is a very good thing IMO, as for the fun of it I ran a WraithKnight in a 500 pt game the other day. (Was vs my brother as a try to Screw you). That is beyond broken.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 6, 2017, 08:18:48 PM
Speaking of Command Points, it occurs to me that we already have so many abilities that so many armies use on a turn-by-turn basis.

> Astra Militarum/Tempestus Orders
> Adeptus Astartes Doctrines
> Skitarii Doctrina Imperatives (and the Cult Mechanicus equivalent)
> Tau Invocations of the Elements

To some extent, we might already be looking at how Command Points are going to work, more or less.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 7, 2017, 08:19:13 AM
A brigade requires a ton of investment, and even at that point there is no LoW. 3 HQ, elites, fast, and heavy, with 6 troops mandatory - that effectively removes LoW from low point games. And at a Brigade level, there is still no LoW.

For those that missed the Q&A video a while back, the detachments are the way you CAN field and army, doing so generates that new command point things. They said that you could mix and match as much as you like, its just that you will have less CP to spend.

In the same video they said there would be over 14 detachments, so don't count your chickens just yet.

Regarding the Brigade... 18-37 slots to be used, Currently that would not be a small game, the current list of LoW pool ranges from Eldar Avatar's to Wraithknights to actual Titans. An army that big should be able to handle a single WK or lower. So it makes me think the LoW pool is going to change as well, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Avatar being moved back to HQ for example.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 7, 2017, 10:33:19 AM
The post on big models is up. Two thoughts:

The stat degradation, assuming it follows significant fractions (1/2 wounds left, 1/4 wounds left) looks easier than I considered.

Second: big guns are going to be *huge* this edition. I forsee the lascannon returning to popularity a *lot.* Stripping wounds off those monsters will be no small feat.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 7, 2017, 11:42:26 AM
The wound degradation mechanic is taken from Age of Sigmar, where I've found that it does work well enough.  I think that it will be better suited to 40K though, as it seems more suited to the type of damage that can be dealt to super heavies and vehicles.

I agree about heavy weapons making something of a come back.  Units like this are also going to make certain specialist units, such as Fire Dragons or Havocs, all the more vital, both in terms of the damage that they can inflict, and in terms of being an even more high priority target.  Interesting times.

Here is the link: New Warhammer 40,000: Large Models – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/07/new-warhammer-40000-big-stuff-may7gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 7, 2017, 04:53:48 PM
One thing that made me happy is the mention of no more 1 shot KO's on vehicles. The specific mention of 1 shotting a Land Raider with a lone Melta Gun was good to see IMO. I'm really looking forward to seeing the iconic vehicles return to prominence. Especially Land Raiders and Leman Russ.

The cool thing is the preview of the Lascannon can let us be reissured that classic heavy weapons will give us the tools to take out vehicles with high wound totals.

Also Frankie's article about Chaos was SUPER encouraging. He really didn't hold any punches in his analysis of playing Chaos for the past 2 editions... and if that level of unvarnished truth was any measure of his estimate of where Chaos is going to stand in the new editions, its also super encouraging. Especially with GW going out of their way to mention Frankie test-playing the game for HUNDREDS of hours... Crazy

Can't wait for this new edition to drop
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 7, 2017, 05:28:51 PM
With the Gorka/Morka being moved to T8 it makes me wonder what toughness (and to a lesser extent wounds) something like a Landraider will be. 9 or 10 since a LR was 14 on all sides? What about things like Wraithlords and Wraithknights which had some of the highest toughness out there? Will they just get more wounds?

Also has me curious about Melta and Lance weapons. Will lance weapons just reduce toughness to a certain amount or just have improved stats? Will Melta weapons have a higher strength and/or some other strength modifier for Melta range?

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 7, 2017, 09:00:04 PM
It seems to me that vehicle toughness is not related to AV, but rather "size." Bigger you are, the higher the T, the wounds, etc.. I'm not sure there's a direct correlation between any of the current stats and the new ones.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: kaldolaf on May 8, 2017, 11:38:14 AM
Infantry article is up now New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/)

I'm liking the new S vs T comparison.  Combined with the amount of wounds we're seeing for large models it leaves that chance for small arms to wound large models but it'll take alot of shooting.

But my biggest take away is squads can now shoot at as many targets as they want!  I see this making a lot of units and options viable.  Big ones that jump out to me are Fusion blasters on Stealth Suits and Ion Rifles and Rail Rifles on Pathfinders.  In fact with the change to how AP works I can actually see pathfinders becoming useful.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 8, 2017, 11:40:57 AM
Ouch, the Imperium & CSM just got a huge boost while poor eldar aspect warriors got another huge nerf, check out the new T vs S table:
New Warhammer 40,000: Infantry – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/08/17794gw-homepage-post-4/)
-ninja'd.
Toughness is sadly going to be even more important than before, and mixed weapons units can, not only, celebrate for all guns are worth firing, they also got infinite splitfire.

There will be no reason at all not to take heavy weapons, they might even be worth double their current upgrade costs.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 8, 2017, 11:54:06 AM
I really don't see how Eldar are going to be any worse off from this.  They've always been fragile.  Eldar players have been dealing with that since Rogue Trader.  I'm not at all worried by the strength/toughness table.

As for split fire, that one has taken me by surprise, however, I am not against it.  It makes squads more flexible than in the past, and does make heavy weapons in non-specialist squads more useful.  The trade-off is, however, likely to be that such squads will need to be on the move more often, which will sacrifice the accuracy of the heavy weapon.

All in all, I see no reason to be concerned about these particular changes.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: kaldolaf on May 8, 2017, 12:04:23 PM
I like that overall this makes most models harder to wound than they use to be.  Thogh it is obviopusly a bigger boost the higher your toughness is.  T2 models end up almost the same as before while T1 models end up coming out worse

T1 - S1 on 4, S2+ on 2
T2 - S1 on 5, S2 on 4, S3 on 3, S4+ on 2
T3 - S1 on 6, S2 on 5, S3 on 4, S4 - S5 on 3, S6+ on 2
T4 - S1 - S2 on 6, S3 on 5, S4 on 4, S5 - S7 on 3, S8+ on 2
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 8, 2017, 12:19:22 PM
I like the changes and they make sense imho.

I don't quite see how Aspect Warriors get a huge nerf though?? They can splitfire like everybody else; sounds like a huge benefit to me when I think about Dragons or Reapers. Yes, "mixed weaponry" squads become better and that's exactly what was needed to make Tac Marines or large Devastator squads viable. I welcome this change very much.

As for the new To-Wound table... I guess this is where Eldar might feel they've been 'nerfed'. But mainly because people spam S6 weapons like crazies these days. So yeah, our beloved Scatter Lasers and ShuriCans won't wound Marines on 2s, but I don't really care 8). Maybe we'll see the S7 Starcannon soon...?

Anyways, overall my 4+ Aspects will gain a lot of survivability vs. Heavy Bolters in 8th, which is awesome considering my Meta  8)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 8, 2017, 12:24:03 PM
I think the new Str Vs To thing is needed and, on balance, will serve to make infantry more survivable and useful. I'm all for it.

The split fire thing I kinda expected, to be honest. Not sure why, but it just seemed likely. Big bonus for Tac Squads and IG Infantry.

Someone mentioned Tau Markerlights? My current theory is that they're going to add Command Points to your army. That's my guess.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 8, 2017, 12:31:30 PM
I don't quite see how Aspect Warriors get a huge nerf though?? They can splitfire like everybody else; sounds like a huge benefit to me when I think about Dragons or Reapers.

Exactly.  This is especially valuable for Dark Reapers, as it makes equipping the Exarch in a different role much more useful.  I'm really looking forward to the flexibility that this will offer to specialist Eldar ranged weapon Aspect units.  It will also be helpful for Guardian squads with weapon platforms for the same reason.

Quote
Maybe we'll see the S7 Starcannon soon...?

That would be another idea that they have borrowed from the old Eldar redux if GW decides to go down that path.  In view of the changes being made, this may actually happen this time.

I think the new Str Vs To thing is needed and, on balance, will serve to make infantry more survivable and useful. I'm all for it.

This is significant for me as well.  I really want to see infantry have a better chance of survival and this does seem to be a step in the right direction from this perspective too.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 8, 2017, 01:28:21 PM
Que Darth Vader's entrance song..light Saber sound and slicing. The death of something you loved. End theatrics.

Sorry everyone, it just really feels like it's getting dumbed down. I hope I'm wrong, please let the new not be dumb. AOS hurt our gaming community real bad and with 40k being my only outlet, please let it be good. Not been overly impressed with any of the new yet. The hype ain't there.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 8, 2017, 01:42:25 PM
Simplification doesn't necessarily mean dumb. Do you mean to suggest that the (needless) complexity of the current rules is required to keep the game fun? I mean, why should we be so attached to AV, anyway? What's been proposed so far seems a fairly elegant solution to the current editions many problems.

I fully expect there to be plenty of special rules that give this or that army or unit exceptions to the norm. This isn't going to vanilla-ize the game. Besides, while the launch was awkward, AoS has proven to be very popular, even with some of the same people who claimed it was terrible.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 8, 2017, 01:54:24 PM
I liked AV as a means to differentiate from other units but I like vehicles degrading as they take damage even more. Change can be scary but it's not automatically bad.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: dog_of_war on May 8, 2017, 02:10:59 PM
I'm actually thrilled at the change in the strength/toughness chart and even though all the examples are for shooting damage, I'm assuming and hoping that this holds up for close combat damage, as well. There will be no more our weapons are useless when fighting a dreadnaught or wraithlord, so I see this as a huge boon for horde armies in close combat like orks and tyranids.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 8, 2017, 02:47:11 PM
(https://www.40konline.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2F2Yj1QCu.jpg&hash=938d5ebc64e76e9d1f9c0665ebe3f2d11abdf6aa)

Que Darth Vader's entrance song..light Saber sound and slicing. The death of something you loved. End theatrics.

Sorry everyone, it just really feels like it's getting dumbed down. I hope I'm wrong, please let the new not be dumb. AOS hurt our gaming community real bad and with 40k being my only outlet, please let it be good. Not been overly impressed with any of the new yet. The hype ain't there.
I think you're overreacting to partial information.

The biggest complaint I heard regarding AoS was that there were stupid fluffy rules to get benefits, like having to have a goblet and yell "For the Lady!" for Grail Knights to get reroll to hit.  Add in that there were no points or built in systems to realistically balance a match when the game was released and people instantly didn't like it.  Now, some of the most competitive people I know are really getting into playing AoS and are enjoying it for the game that it is.  It might have 4 pages of core rules, but there is enough variation in the unit rules to make it worthwhile. 

Now, for the "dumbing down" of 40k, I don't see where you could be having an issue.  Perhaps with the change to the wounding chart?  But let's be honest, when we experienced gamers memorized the wound table, we didn't memorize the exact numbers and references.  We memorized the formula behind what it takes to wound something.

Maybe it is that every unit now uses the same profile?  But then I see that as taking the complexity of the core rules where everyone is expected to know the rules for every unit type (which, honestly, I ignored the rules for Chariots), and instead we have the basic understanding for everything and it is going to be the units that make the modifications.

These changes are not all doom and gloom.  A lot of the changes are simply taking a system that we knew and putting it into an easy to understand format.  Take Ballistic Skill as an example.  Prior to 6th edition, there was no difference between BS5 and BS10.  Then they added in the rerolls and made it more complex for people to grasp.  Did we really need a table to explain how BS4 meant you hit on 3+? 
I liked AV as a means to differentiate from other units but I like vehicles degrading as they take damage even more. Change can be scary but it's not automatically bad.
I actually like that vehicles are getting their rules cut down.  A lot of misunderstanding came from what vehicles are able to do what.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 8, 2017, 03:08:18 PM
@Katamari Damacy: You answered your own question regarding aspect warriors, since they rarely have any choices to to mix weapons, it's a nerf to them on top of loosing the initiative advantage. And what bugs me about that is, they are not nerfing the OP units, like scatterbikes and wraiths, only those that already sit on the shelve.

@Everyone: I wonder if this means you are allowed to pick a unit, then shoot weapon by weapon, when you have 2+ potential targets, so no shots will be wasted as overkill.
It could become tedious though and it would give player who, tips the dice, rather than rolling, more space to exploit that "cheat".

@dog_of_war: I assume we will get the same mechanics for S/T in CC as in shooting, that's the way it has been since 2nd ed and possibly even before, and when streamlining the rules I'd be very surprised if that was not the case.
Also there is no need for "our weapons are useless", as you can always choose to fall back AFAIK.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 8, 2017, 03:17:53 PM
Actually Wyrrd, I was not happy when AP was introduced. Power weapons lost their power imho. We'll see how it all works. I hope I'm happy with it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 8, 2017, 03:37:18 PM
I'm particularly happy with the announcements today.  :)

I imagine that the split fire mechanic will be identical to Age Of Sigmar.  For every unit, pick your targets, fully resolve all of your allocated attacks against one unit, then move on to the next target until all attacks against all targets are fully resolved.  And multiple attack weapons can split their attacks against multiple targets too.  It sounds more complicated than it is believe me.  :D

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on May 8, 2017, 04:13:51 PM
Since this thread started, a lot of the comments were on certain rules slowing the game down. If you really want to bog 40K down? Throw in split fire for every unit. Am not against split fire myself, but all those who mentioned wanting to streamline the game should be.   
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 8, 2017, 04:17:34 PM
As long as you have to announce which weapons are firing at what before you roll, it won't take any more time than rolling several different types of weapon.

I've been doing this with my Tau for years. It doesn't really slow anything down.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 8, 2017, 04:20:46 PM
I'm thrilled with these changes. The split fire rule is SUCH a huge boon to classic Imperial units like Tac Marines with special/heavy weapons, Sternguard, shooty Terminators,  Guard squads w/special heavy weapons, but also some of my fave. Eldar units like Dragons with a Flamer, Guardians with a weapon platform, Dark Reapers and hopefully TANKS! Wow sponsons being able to independently target could be HUGE for IG players.

There hasn't been a single thing that hasn't appealed to me.

Especially after saving my Betrayal at Calth heavy/special weapons, countless Guardian platforms. This is a huge boon to infantry... and also is really nice considering how many weapon options GW gives you in kits.

Cannot convey how stoked I am... plus with GW saying 1500pt games taking 90 minutes or less to play.... I'm over the moon.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 8, 2017, 04:21:32 PM
Since this thread started, a lot of the comments were on certain rules slowing the game down. If you really want to bog 40K down? Throw in split fire for every unit. Am not against split fire myself, but all those who mentioned wanting to streamline the game should be.

So far I've found it very workable.  It doesn't take long to resolve.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on May 8, 2017, 04:31:35 PM
G'day Captain Calamity!
I remember a lot of umming and ahhring from the procrastinators of the group. Battle focus doesn't take long to resolve either, however, it is on the list of game bogging.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 8, 2017, 06:52:06 PM
Since this thread started, a lot of the comments were on certain rules slowing the game down. If you really want to bog 40K down? Throw in split fire for every unit. Am not against split fire myself, but all those who mentioned wanting to streamline the game should be.

It's not going to bog the game down to anywhere near the extent that the current rules do.  The changes to vehicles, in particular, are going to speed up the game.  No more rolling on damage tables, for example.  The morale changes will also speed up the game.

The fact that it has already been incorporated into some armies as was mentioned before without being unduly noticed in terms of time added is evidence in favour of the change as well.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 8, 2017, 09:00:05 PM
As for the new To-Wound table... I guess this is where Eldar might feel they've been 'nerfed'. But mainly because people spam S6 weapons like crazies these days. So yeah, our beloved Scatter Lasers and ShuriCans won't wound Marines on 2s, but I don't really care 8). Maybe we'll see the S7 Starcannon soon...?


Eldar have been spaming s6 shots for a very long time, way before scatbikes came in. The flip side though is they have had poor AP values. The bulk of these are our multirole units, so they are only OK at Anti-armour and OK at anti-infantry. They will need some sort of buff the balance them out correctly, such as improving the AP value.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on May 8, 2017, 11:33:54 PM
The split fire thing I kinda expected, to be honest. Not sure why, but it just seemed likely. Big bonus for Tac Squads and IG Infantry.

I see it as being a bonus for almost everything.  Especially if vehicles can split fire.  Look at the load outs you could do for warwalkers, sentinal squads, kan squads.  Talk about variety.  I always hated the idea of having a full squad have to negate shooting just so a heavy weapon could fire at something that the squads guns couldn't touch.  Shooting will hopefully be more effective and realisic.

Sorry everyone, it just really feels like it's getting dumbed down. I hope I'm wrong, please let the new not be dumb. AOS hurt our gaming community real bad and with 40k being my only outlet, please let it be good. Not been overly impressed with any of the new yet. The hype ain't there.

I will take dumbed down over rules on top of rules any day.  Some of the best most enjoyable games out there are the ones that are the easiest to learn.  Goes for board games and such.  Chess fairly easy to learn but a long time to master.   Just because something is easy to learn doesn't mean it changes the strategy of the game.   

6th and 7th edition saw more veterans leave the hobby then any other edition IMHO.   People hung on for the shortest 40k edition ever ***cough 6th*** in the hopes GW would see the light and while they know they screwed up, their solution was to add more rules to try to fix a totally flawed and unbalanced system.  It needed scrapped.

I still don't like overwatch i think if you are going to over watch you should have to negate your shooting turn the prior turn.  Aside from the needing 6's to hit for most army there is little benefit for not overwatching as it is basically free shooting out of turn.

Or a better solution I could see it being worked out as losing their CC attack(s) if they overwatch or atleast be a -1 to WS if they are focused on shooting in overwatch would make sense. You stand and shoot you are not totally prepared to take a charge and if you are you are significantly handicapped having to use your gun as a melee weapon, I don't think you should be able to transition at all if you overwatch and the -1 to WS would make the most sense.   
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 8, 2017, 11:48:32 PM
I see what you're saying. I hope you're right. As for over watch, lose same turn shooting kinda like in space hulk.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 9, 2017, 07:05:18 AM
@Dread- Also in AOS the complexity of the game comes through in the unit Datasheets. The big change is that these rules are printed on the Datasheet, instead of having this rulebook reference system, on top of unit specific rules.

It also allows the game to keep evolving via the introduction of new units with rules suited to them, instead of being chained to a system where every special rules is meant to work universally across all 16 factions and hundreds of units.

So bear in mind... each unit, their special rules, their wargear and how their wargear operates is going to be custom tailored to that faction... No longer constrained to a basic set of universal special rules. On top of that the rules AND points are gonna be updated yearly in a new General's Handbook to make sure everything is somewhat balanced.

AOS since the Generals Handbook has been going crazy in the tournament community, because of it simple rules, fast pace but also crazy complex interaction between units. Top tourney players are passing on 40k for AOS, so dont worry, I'm sure we are getting a far better game than the one we have now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 9, 2017, 11:08:14 AM
New post up on characters. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/new-warhammer-40000-characters-may9gw-homepage-post-4/)

No more Deathstars? Yay! (but I bet there's still ways to make a deathstar)

This will be an interesting ruling vis-a-vis transports. Can characters not hitch a ride in a rhino or drop pod anymore? That seems lame.

Overall, though, I like this a lot.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 9, 2017, 11:20:42 AM
There's no surprise that the Age of Sigmar approach has been adopted here.  I have no problem with that.

Regarding transports, I would be surprised if there is not some rule to enable a character to hitch a ride with a transport, but not able to be part of the unit riding with him/her upon disembarking.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 9, 2017, 11:38:07 AM
Intresting :) I guess we know how snipers will work now, they will simply ignore the restrictions for shooing directly at characters.
I still wonder if this applies to upgrade characters like sergeants, that would be weird, but having a couple of exarches teaming up has not been unheard of.
I don't think this will prevent deathstars, however it will make them subject to snipers, which is exactly what they should have been all along. So if a model has the invisibility psychic power(or it's new equall) you can just snipe the dude, before he gets to cast his power.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 9, 2017, 01:40:40 PM
There's also good news for Guard players:
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Astra Militarum – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum/)

In there you'll also see how sniper weapons work and a sneak peak at the Lemam Russ.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 9, 2017, 02:30:55 PM
There's also good news for Guard players:
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Astra Militarum – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-astra-militarum/)

In there you'll also see how sniper weapons work and a sneak peak at the Lemam Russ.

All that sounds *fabulous.* So very excited!

I'm also guessing snipers function that way, though not necessarily sniper *weapons.* But we'll see.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 9, 2017, 11:14:39 PM
I'm also guessing snipers function that way, though not necessarily sniper *weapons.* But we'll see.
The article actually specifically says "sniper weapons" when referring to the Ratlings.

So, things we've learned from this piece:
- Leman Russ stats
- Snipers ignore targeting restrictions on Characters
- Rapid Fire weapons are double the shots of the number listed at half range.

The first and last point there have me intrigued.  If a Leman Russ has T8 and 12 wounds, what would people expect for a Land Raider?  Because it is the most heavily armour unit in the game (minus the Warlord, of course), I am expecting at least T9 or T10 and 16 wounds.  Russes and (M/G)orkanauts are both tough, but they have weaker sides of armour in the current rules.  Maybe having that 14 all around justifies an increase in the toughness.

As for the Rapid Fire weapons, I wonder if we will see Salvo weapons become Rapid Fire 3 or something like that.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dralith on May 9, 2017, 11:34:11 PM
I suppose 'sniper' will be a weapon-based rather than unit-based rule if not only for ease of reference then to avoid the incongruity of say a marine scout who has the tactical acumen to shoot characters with heavy bolt shell or krak missile but forgets once he dons power armour.

Why do we think salvo is going away again?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 06:03:48 AM
Why do we think salvo is going away again?

Mostly because there is no particularly good reason it's different than rapid fire. If this is to be the edition of streamlined rules, Salvo is the first to go.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 10, 2017, 06:44:00 AM
umm rapid fire has not changed, they went through an example of IG order that lets them double the rate of fire...

not sure what the problem with Salvo is, but if they are going to take it away, then I imagine the weapons would drop to their lowest rate of fire or become a heavy weapon (move or shoot).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 09:12:57 AM
umm rapid fire has not changed, they went through an example of IG order that lets them double the rate of fire...

not sure what the problem with Salvo is, but if they are going to take it away, then I imagine the weapons would drop to their lowest rate of fire or become a heavy weapon (move or shoot).

I'm not suggesting rapid fire has changed. I'm saying that Salvo is basically "more complicated Rapid Fire" and, therefore, has no place in the game. It never did. It was stupid when they introduced it in 7th and it's stupid now.

You get the *exact* same effect by putting a number after Rapid Fire. So Bolters are Rapid Fire 1, Grav Guns are Rapid Fire 2, Grav Cannons are Rapid Fire 3, etc..

Bonus: you get to move and shoot Grav Weapons and get a few more shots at short range.
Drawback: no more 24" of death from Grav Cannons.

Edit

The new weapons rules are posted now. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/10/new-warhammer-40000-weapons-part-2-may10gw-homepage-post-4/)

Some good and some bad here.

Being able to fire double shots from Twin Linked weapons is awesome (Welcome back, 2nd Edition!) and doubling up on your combiweapons is sweet (expect them to rise in cost, though!). 

From what we're reading, it seems as though they're going to stick to a direct correlation between modern AP and the new AP. So, AP 5 or less is a 0, AP 4 = -1, AP 3 = -2, AP 2 = -3, and AP 1 = -4. I was hoping/assuming they wouldn't do this, but it seems that way.

Why I don't like this is that weapons like Autocannons, which are ostensibly anti-light vehicle weapons, are now likely to suck at the job. Likewise, certain nasty anti-infantry weapons (like all those AP 3 guns out there) are weaker than they were before by a good margin. I mean, space marines rejoice, but not good for everyone trying to kill marines.

Lastly: if the Battlecannon is an indication of how large blasts are to be used, then that is a major, major nerf. 1D6 shots and *then* you roll to hit? Ugh--that's awful, especially with a big main gun like that. You used to reliably knock out 4-5 guys on a hit, now you're going to be lucky to score 1-2. This is terrible, terrible news for Guard players. Just when I was starting to be so hopeful about them, too...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 10, 2017, 11:02:47 AM
Lastly: if the Battlecannon is an indication of how large blasts are to be used, then that is a major, major nerf. 1D6 shots and *then* you roll to hit? Ugh--that's awful, especially with a big main gun like that.

My thoughts exactly. I hope I misunderstand how blasts work!?  :o

D6 auto-hits would be kinda okay I guess but rolling for the amount of shots and THEN roll to hit is just terrible.  >:(

As for AP: LasCan is -3 but the Melter gets -4 so I'd say it has nothing to do with the STR value of a weapon. edit: misunderstood what you were saying...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 11:06:14 AM
The weird upside here is that now they become halfway decent antitank weapons. It is the death of the Whirlwind, though, or any other anti-infantry large blast (well, unless the profiles vary more than we're guessing).

If small blasts become a D3, I'm going to laugh at the now-even-more-useless missile launcher for days and days. And then never field them.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: dog_of_war on May 10, 2017, 11:08:17 AM
We're still looking at things in a somewhat vacuum, so I'll have to hold judgement for the full release. We still don't know what's replacing special rules (datasheets are next on the GW reveal) or point costs. I like the idea of just increasing dice instead of rerolling for rapid fire. It can speed up dice for mixed units and is a great boon for orks with deffkoptas, bikes, and flyers seeing some more dakka. I like that combi weapons are no longer one offs, again less book keeping. Not sure how I feel about firing both weapons fluff wise, but my meganobz won't be complaining. Blast weapons does seem to be a nerf, but I'd need to see all relative weapon stats and point costs to make a judgement. Maybe all blasters weapons ignore cover saves, which would make them awesome and justify the lower number of shots. We just don't have the entire picture yet. I'm still super eager for any of these changes. They had me at free core rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 11:11:48 AM
If blasts *were* to ignore cover saves, there would be some indication on the profile, which there isn't. There isn't even the word "blast"--just a random number of shots attached to the Heavy designation.

Also, this Battle Cannon profile seems to show that Ordnance, as a rule, is now gone. Good riddance, I say. Maybe at least my Leman Russ can now fire all their Heavy Bolters in addition to their now-lame-ass battlecannon. 

Additionally, this paragraph (and those like it) makes me worried:

Quote
Explosives tend to work pretty well now against both numerous infantry and large individual models, but not as well against either dedicated anti-infantry or anti-tank weapons.

Sooo...either they aren't telling us something (but what and why not?) or they are just flat-out wrong. This will *not* work well against numerous infantry at all (remember blowing big chunks out of a Green Tide? No more, no more) but will work *relatively* well against large models.

That last phrase needs to be a misprint, too, or it makes no sense: it probably is *supposed* to read "but not as well as either dedicated anti-infantry or anti-tank weapons.

This combination of tone-deafness to the efficacy of their own designs AND poor proofreading makes me concerned that GW has not changed as much as it claims. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 10, 2017, 11:16:39 AM
umm rapid fire has not changed, they went through an example of IG order that lets them double the rate of fire...

not sure what the problem with Salvo is, but if they are going to take it away, then I imagine the weapons would drop to their lowest rate of fire or become a heavy weapon (move or shoot).
The reason why I mentioned that Rapid Fire rules are changing is because of how they phrased the order for First Rank Second Rank:
Quote from: Warhammer Community Faction Focus: Astra Militarum
This now makes a unit of Astra Militarum infantry treat their lasguns and hot-shot lasguns as Rapid Fire 2; that’s 4 shots per Guardsman at half range!
With the order, they treat their lasguns as Rapid Fire 2, which gives them 4 shots at half range.  The change is coming from the fact that Rapid Fire currently is either 1 or 2 shots.  Now you have the possibility of having the base number of shots being higher, and then doubling it at half range.

If small blasts become a D3, I'm going to laugh at the now-even-more-useless missile launcher for days and days. And then never field them.
Two things:
1)  You actually fired Frag Missiles from your missile launchers?
2)  Realistically, how often would you get more than 2 hits from a small blast against a competent opponent?  Personally, I would have to hope for a scatter to get two hits from a small blast, otherwise I was just getting one because my opponents would be properly spaced at 2" apart.  Hell, I've played against guys who would space 180 Boyz to 2".  He even made movement trays for them...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 11:42:22 AM
You would get two hits rarely, but more often than you'd get them with the D3 shots mechanic. Besides, Frag missiles were great for those moments pack of infantry were forced to disembark from a trashed vehicle and were all clumped together. Or when something deepstruck and was in a tight little circle. Those moments made the small blast shine.

Now? Gone. Now you are *less* likely to hit more than 1 target than ever before.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 10, 2017, 12:06:27 PM
Twin-linked weapons mounted on Wave Serpent turrets are looking pretty nasty under these rules, depending on how the embarking and disembarking rules work in relation to movement and shooting.  In general, this change is going to make certain vehicles potentially very effective indeed.

I also rather like the change to combi-weapons.  It makes them more useful than in the past.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 10, 2017, 12:20:10 PM
Twin-linked weapons mounted on Wave Serpent turrets are looking pretty nasty under these rules, depending on how the embarking and disembarking rules work in relation to movement and shooting.  In general, this change is going to make certain vehicles potentially very effective indeed.
I'm practically drooling over how awesome this makes Land Raiders!  Four Lascannon shots?  Yes please!
You would get two hits rarely, but more often than you'd get them with the D3 shots mechanic. Besides, Frag missiles were great for those moments pack of infantry were forced to disembark from a trashed vehicle and were all clumped together. Or when something deepstruck and was in a tight little circle. Those moments made the small blast shine.

Now? Gone. Now you are *less* likely to hit more than 1 target than ever before.
Frankly, the way I see it is that those instances of hitting tightly grouped models were so few and far between that you couldn't rely on them to be the norm.  I see the d3 / d6 mechanic as being more reliable than a blast template.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 10, 2017, 12:42:51 PM
Now seeing the melta rule changes, it's no longer the go-to anti-tank weapon. I don't care about better D6 rolls for wounds when it's going to be harder to wound heavy vehicles in the first place. The melta was supposed to get increased strength vs these targets. Now it doesn't.

Not saying it's bad, but it's quite different now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 01:25:31 PM
You certainly can't rely on just one or two meltaguns being sufficient to get the job done, that's for sure. You'll need 3-4 at minimum.

I'm telling you, this is going to be the era of the lascannon over all other weapon options. Honestly, very much like 2nd Edition, when I think about it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 10, 2017, 01:38:19 PM
I think Melta is still going to be a more reliable weapon for when it comes to dealing with large models.  Yes, the lascannon will have an easier time wounding, but the melta will have a better chance of scoring a large chunk of wounds being removed.

If you compare Melta to how it works now, at short range vs AV14, the odds to penetrate and cause significant damage are the exact same as they are to wound T8; except now there is an increased chance to strip more wounds off since outright killing isn't possible any more.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 10, 2017, 01:41:50 PM
The trouble with melta, though, is that it was (and still is) a very high-risk proposition: get really close to the big bad and *hope* you wipe it out before it gets you.

With the removal of any realistic chance of an instant kill, melta gets dealt a serious blow. Safer and more reliable to stack LCs, stand back, and blast away.

I mean, sure, we'll still see melta about, but it's supremacy as a tank-killer has just been seriously undermined. The upside, of course, is that now Melta is going to make MCs sweat, whereas before they were largely unimportant.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 10, 2017, 09:27:44 PM
Twin-linked weapons mounted on Wave Serpent turrets are looking pretty nasty under these rules, depending on how the embarking and disembarking rules work in relation to movement and shooting.  In general, this change is going to make certain vehicles potentially very effective indeed.


Not only that but all Eldar basic Jetbikes just became awesome. This also effects the base Eldar tanks, do you put on the Shuriken cannon any more?

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 10, 2017, 10:39:06 PM
The trouble with melta, though, is that it was (and still is) a very high-risk proposition: get really close to the big bad and *hope* you wipe it out before it gets you.

However, we now have the ability to degrade and reduce vehicles when not exploding them in one action scene. So decent damage, while not fatal, still helps to make them more vulnerable and less able to deal it back.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 11, 2017, 08:16:16 AM
Not only that but all Eldar basic Jetbikes just became awesome. This also effects the base Eldar tanks, do you put on the Shuriken cannon any more?

Killer point Magenb. Never even thought of that... the range will still be a huge issue though. At 12" its still too scary to risk the JB's. If they go up to 18" it'd be a huge help.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 11, 2017, 08:48:52 AM
Not only that but all Eldar basic Jetbikes just became awesome. This also effects the base Eldar tanks, do you put on the Shuriken cannon any more?

Indeed, this is a very good point.  I never used the underslung Shuriken Cannon anyway, so my Falcon and Wave Serpents are already equipped with Shuriken Catapults should I have the opportunity to use them again.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 11, 2017, 09:51:27 AM
New post on Datasheets (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/11/new-warhammer-40000-datasheetsgw-homepage-post-4/).

I think this looks quick and easy to use. I'm curious to see how "power level" stacks out for narrative play, but overall I'm liking how simple it is. As I'm a Thousand Sons player, I have some thoughts on the Ksons, but I'll save that for the Chaos board.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 11, 2017, 10:05:50 AM
This is going to help to streamline 40K a lot.  I'm very pleased that they chose to show one of the more complex 40K units as well, in order to showcase how much more straightforward they will be to use with a datasheet system.  This is definitely one of the most positive changes in my view.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 11, 2017, 12:35:47 PM
New Faction Focus on Eldar (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/11/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-eldar/).

Start your engines, guys.  ;)

One odd bit:
Quote
Phoenix Lords, especially, will benefit from a nice 2+ armour save.

Ummm...don't they already? I coulda sworn they did.  ???
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 11, 2017, 12:37:07 PM
I liked the part about Mandiblasters dishing out Mortal Wounds  ::)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 11, 2017, 12:42:19 PM
Yes, the Eldar article really didn't reveal anything the units don't already do/have. Other than the Avatar.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 11, 2017, 12:44:29 PM
I liked the part about Mandiblasters dishing out Mortal Wounds  ::)

This is better than what they do now, though. No armor/invul saves is pretty good when a whole unit is dishing them out.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 11, 2017, 03:40:42 PM
I knew there was a reason I spent I don't know how much money & time converting up 20 counts-as Scorpions and learning to play them throughout 7th edition. Mandiblasters dealing out Mortal Wounds!? I'm so freaking excited!!!

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 11, 2017, 05:24:21 PM
Regarding todays news.
Nothing brand new, but no disappointments, I guess they are saving the best for the last.

I hope the datasheets will have matched points on them as well, otherwise there would be no point in having them, as there are already at least one crossreferrence on the example; "Death to the false emperor".

I'm also getting more curious about invulnerable saves, if they work as before, some armour modifiers will be wasted. Also some models have only an invulnerable save, would cover stack with it I wonder. I guess in about a month we'll see. :)

Khaine should rejoice over the character rules though, if he remains a character and don't get bloated to over 10 wounds, and meltas & flamers still won't hurt him.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 11, 2017, 06:51:37 PM
We still get battle focus. Banshee's are super fast and most likely still hit first even if charged, Asurman gives an invul bubble, Guide, doom, and Fortune are still around, Scorpions have a mysterious new special stealth rule and buffed mandiblasters, however the best news is that is sound like the Avatar and phoenix lords have become a viable option again.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 12, 2017, 08:20:10 AM
Wow... the amount of damage the Avatar can do hadn't really sunk in. He can potentially deal 6 wounds PER HIT. Holy crap... that is freaking insane! Oh man... soooo nice. Now thats a proper LoW
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 12, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
Yep and I expect him to hit stuff on 2+ as well  ;D. That'll teach those puny Primarchs about true Demi Gods  8)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 12, 2017, 11:17:12 AM
Points are as usual, but now they are DLC. :(
New Warhammer 40,000: Points & Power Levels – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 12, 2017, 11:55:57 AM
Points are as usual, but now they are DLC. :(
New Warhammer 40,000: Points & Power Levels – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/12/new-warhammer-40000-points-power-levels-may12gw-homepage-post-4/)

Assuming you mean "Downloadable Content" there, how do you figure, given this:

Quote
The points for units don’t appear on the datasheet but will be elsewhere in the same book.

The "same book" would seem to indicate the existence of a book. If you're referring to the implied future points realignments that they can release separately, why is that bad? Seems to me that would be terribly helpful to keep the game balanced and counteract abuses.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 12, 2017, 01:19:16 PM
@Wyddr: Yes, downloadable content. Please don't force me to go down that route with a wall of text explaining why this is bad in oh so many ways.

Yes, you can buy a book, that will be invalidated within a year. That book better be cheap.

In addition, there will be a bucket full of worms for squabble over which edition to use.
2.1 or 2.2 or maybe 2.17 I can see this go way past the dodo.

Also if you didn't think paying for each tidbit of DLC was bad enough, now you might need to sign up your creditcard, and sign an agreement, or they'll sue you to hell if you even print out a hardcopy of the latest rules for your own personal use.

Even if I wanted to play a pay-to-play & pay-to-win game, there are much better options than a game with half-assed rules, with rules disagreements in every corner, I play 40k to escape from nagging humans, not to get into arguments just for the sake of arguing.
I can do that without any rules just fine.

Why do I say half-assed rules, well the space marines stays at the same amount of points.
That is extremely un-granular (as I assume they won't start using decimals), sure they might round off points to it's closest balance, I can still write a more balanced and fun game myself and probably will. (forging the narrative ;) )

GW's hype about 8th ed being balanced, was obviously a lie.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 12, 2017, 01:59:30 PM
Fenris I really don't know where you are coming from at all. There are going to be points right off the bat, available for everyone from the start- for free. GW has already said this...

Then in the future, when things need to be re-balanced they'll release a Generals Handbook style release which is $25 US. GW has stated this as well in their Q&A.

Not only is this more than half the price of the current codices, it also means a living rules-set which means we means the game will remain good health and with a good semblance of balance.

I really dont know where you are coming from at all with this "half assed rules", pay to play and all the rest of it. They are giving us the rules for free and have had the best  tournament organizers from all around the world, play testing every unit for hundreds of hours. They've posted this at the top of all 3 faction focus articles.

So on your charge of pay to play: The rules are free.

Half-Assed Rules: They've had the best tournament organizers in the world, spend hundreds of hours play testing every unit in the game for months now.

And as for updated points and rules... if the Generals Handbook is any indicator, that book will be be more than half the cost of any of the Codices, and will be a part of a living system which will mean less money spent on books.

Although the cost of the 40k Generals Handbook hasn't been revealed and wont need to be for a good long while we feel out the free rules... all this stuff has been printed/broadcast by GW themselves.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 12, 2017, 05:27:04 PM
Additional: if you are playing 40k and not planning to spend money, you are playing the wrong game. This will be as true in 8th Edition as it has been since the beginning. Every edition. Since forever.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 12, 2017, 06:23:33 PM
Points are as usual, but now they are DLC. :(
@Wyddr: Yes, downloadable content. Please don't force me to go down that route with a wall of text explaining why this is bad in oh so many ways.

Yes, you can buy a book, that will be invalidated within a year. That book better be cheap.


Ahahahahahahah...

Oh wait... you're seriously bothered by this?  Calm down there, Chicken Little.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?

In addition, there will be a bucket full of worms for squabble over which edition to use.
2.1 or 2.2 or maybe 2.17 I can see this go way past the dodo.
This would go right along with all of the current squabbles over which edition to use.  I get into arguments all the time at my LGS about whether we should be playing 5th edition or 7th edition.  Whether the resident Chaos players have to use the most recent codex, or whether they can go back to using the 3.5 codex.   ::)

Also if you didn't think paying for each tidbit of DLC was bad enough, now you might need to sign up your creditcard, and sign an agreement, or they'll sue you to hell if you even print out a hardcopy of the latest rules for your own personal use.

Ummm... what?!?  Where did you get the idea that this might even have the potential of being a thing?  Is it because you slapped the DLC label on how they are going to be releasing the points?

I think something should be made abundantly clear to you, and it may come as a bit of a shock: 

Games-Workshop is in business to make money.  They have every right to charge what ever they want for their product.  Their new management has come leaps and bounds in working with the community and they have made the conscious decision to no longer charge over $120 (cdn) for their rules and instead are releasing them for free. 

If they didn't change their business model, and you opted to continue buying their product to play their game, you would be spending a minimum of $180CDN.  Regardless as to what the cost of the Generals Handbook-esque purchase will be, it will still be exponentially cheaper than the buy in cost the game has now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 12, 2017, 06:46:02 PM
I'm confused about all this talk of paying money. I thought everything was free on day one of release? Will the points system be a separate thing we have to pay for?

Edit - After some investigating into AoS..

Basic rules are free
Army specific stats, abilities etc. are free
$25 general's book contains extra game play mode rules as well as points system for every model and war gear

Is this correct?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on May 12, 2017, 09:40:56 PM
Core rules = free.
Army rules = cheap. starting with 5 faction books (marines, imperium, chaos, xenos and possibly elder) these include all data sheets, rules and points for all units. these are WAY CHEAPER than a current codex.
Specific army books down the line.
generals handbook every 12ish months that updates points and keeps balance.
campaign and mission books like gathering storm and warzones still a thing.

Overall, MUCH cheaper than currently.

Also... they have FLAT OUT SAID you can print out the rules, hell... they even said their shops would have limited copies of print outs on the day of launch for people..... Certain people in this thread seem to be living up to the old saying of "haters gunna hate"
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 13, 2017, 12:20:54 AM
The old days it was, rules plus codex, go nuts with models, with a supplement every now and then.

Now, sure core rules and army rules are cheap, nice easy way for new players to join, but what's the catch, because this is a business.

The "haters" are ringing the alarm bells because it is starting to stink like EA in the video game space. There, you need to keep buying stuff to keep in the race. For example, Gathering storm could have been done in a single book, but each one was a high priced short story with rules (hell even all 3 books together is just a short story), if you don't pay that toll you're fielding a sub-optimised army. In the video game space, that attitude kills the player base quicker than any nurgle plague.

You can see where they are coming from, but at the end of the day, I'm hopeful. There has been more play testing than I've ever seen for a new edition, for the first time, every one gets their rules at the same time. They are moving to try and make it easier for new player to get involved and they are doing things to keep existing fans interested. I just wish they would stop drip feeding the rule and just release them already.


@Partninja
Sergeant Thomas Highway would call AoS a cluster f...

Sure the rules look free, try and gather ALL the rules for a race or even all the rules in a single place. You get some which only appear in boxsets, some in the race book, some in the handbook, some in the free rules, some behind paywalls online oh and I'll give you one guess where the best rule are...



Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 13, 2017, 03:56:54 AM
@Cavalier:
Quote
Then in the future, when things need to be re-balanced they'll release a Generals Handbook style release which is $25 US. GW has stated this as well in their Q&A.
This is the first red flag for me, GW already knows they are going to have to rebalance.

Quote
Not only is this more than half the price of the current codices, it also means a living rules-set which means we means the game will remain good health and with a good semblance of balance.
Good balance is simply not enough. That's why I call it half-assed.
They still use arbitrary pointvalues. (as proven by a space marine stays at XX points) (probably some decree from Adeptus astartes arbitrary arbites ;) )
Also, $25 is not free. While I was not expecting anything of value to be free, it's still not of any real value. If it has no value I won't even pay $0.01 for it.

@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.

@GML:
Quote
So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?
You pay for a digital version digitally. I prefer paying over a counter, and I prefer knowing what I'm paying for before I pay, not after.
This is partly due to I don't accept refunds digitally, nor do I accept vouchers.

@Partninja & MrDraken: My concerns are I consider the matched points to be the core rules. Not the surrounding fluffcloud as I can forge my own narrative, I don't need to buy a narrative. My meta is already overflooded with everyones narratives.

@Everyone: There is a small shred of hope still, if GW manages to get a good balance between the factions, all that playtesteing and feedback from the TO's may be worth something, but seeing space marines cost XX points as before does not bode well. They needed to do something like:
Space Marines: 100 points
Guardsman: 50 points
Then balance all other factions acording to those referrence points.
-Why not 10/5 points you may wonder?
-Well granularity, otherwise a meltgun would cost 7.4 points or something similar.
Since GW did say all 7th ed codexes will be invalid, there would be no issue in actually raise each models point cost considerably, and still get people to play the latest version of the game due to version creep.

Sure a standard game might have become 10K points, or why not just bump it up to 40k points just for the pun. :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 13, 2017, 06:35:37 AM
My only worry regarding "DLC" would be if they did it the same way as in AoS; like splitting factions into more factions aka Sylvaneth/Wood Elves and crap like Iron Jaws/Orks. I certainly wont pay for "Spirit Host", "Aspect Army XY" and "Space Elve Misc" books.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 13, 2017, 09:16:14 AM
Quote
@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.

This is the *precise* definition of paying to keep playing. You keep buying models, paints, terrain, and rules to stay current and keep up.

You will either keep doing so or you will quit. That's how all of this works and how it has always worked. Nothing so far advanced by GW or by you counters this claim. You just seem to dislike digital documents and are grouchy that marines are good.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 13, 2017, 11:05:41 AM
Good balance is simply not enough. That's why I call it half-assed.
They still use arbitrary pointvalues. (as proven by a space marine stays at XX points) (probably some decree from Adeptus astartes arbitrary arbites ;) )
Also, $25 is not free. While I was not expecting anything of value to be free, it's still not of any real value. If it has no value I won't even pay $0.01 for it.
all point values are arbitrary if you are not aware of the system they used to come up with the points.

@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.
But you've paid to buy books and models which allow you to keep playing.  This game is always going to be pay to play, because you have to pay for the materials to play.  It has since become less pay to play because there are less materials you need to buy.  If you want to complain about pay to play, come down to my local Warhammer store where if you want to do any organized even, you must make a relevant purchase.  I wanted to play in their Shadow War campaign, but my wife bought me the book at an independent retailer, which means I can't play unless I buy a box to assemble a kill team.

That's pay to play.
@GML:
Quote
So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?
You pay for a digital version digitally. I prefer paying over a counter, and I prefer knowing what I'm paying for before I pay, not after.
This is partly due to I don't accept refunds digitally, nor do I accept vouchers.
So then go into the store and buy the hard copy.  No one has said you must buy a digital copy.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 13, 2017, 02:43:32 PM
Chaos Daemons and Damocles are up. Looks like the Tau lost an entire expansion fleet, as one does.

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Daemons – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-chaos-daemons/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Roboknee77 on May 13, 2017, 03:00:37 PM
I am so happy to see blue and brimstone horrors aren't free, you need reinforcement points to bring them in.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 13, 2017, 03:40:41 PM
Chaos Daemons and Damocles are up. Looks like the Tau lost an entire expansion fleet, as one does.

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Daemons – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/13/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-chaos-daemons/)

I might be crazy, but it seems to me that this is teasing some kind of Chaos Tau.  :o

I am so happy to see blue and brimstone horrors aren't free, you need reinforcement points to bring them in.

If Pink Horrors are as terrible in the next edition as they are in this edition, I'll be ditching them post haste. If the enticement is that "they all can Smite!" that will be pretty substantially lame for a model that costs as much to field as it does.

On the other hand, if they let Blue or Brimstone Horrors have Smite, I foresee an *awful lot* of those little bastards in the game.

On a side note, about "reinforcements:"

Why? Why would I pay for troops that only get deployed after other troops of mine are killed? That makes very little sense unless I'm getting those troops at a substantial discount. Because if I *am* paying for two units of Pink Horrors and four units of Blue Horrors and four units of Brimstone Horrors, why wouldn't I just deploy them all at once?

I guess what they've said is that you can choose what to spend those points on during the game, which has *some* utility, sure, but it seems to me it would be vastly better just to spend the points on the units at the outset and have them to use the whole game.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 14, 2017, 11:35:38 AM
Stratagems are up folks. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 14, 2017, 02:24:32 PM
Stratagems are up folks. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/14/new-warhammer-40000-stratagems-may14gw-homepage-post-4/)

Interesting. I mean, I kinda think the lone re-roll expenditure is a waste *most* of the time (how often is that *one* die roll key, anyway?), with the possible exception of charge distance and psychic tests (assuming it extends to those). The others, as shown, seem interesting, but not particularly powerful or even consistently useful.

If an old-school CAD is packing ~6 command points (3 for being battle forge, 3 for that formation), it will be interesting to see how they scale. If there's 4 and 5 and 6 point Stratagems that give more significant buffs, they might really be worth it.

As it stands, these have the feel of the old Cities of Death or Planetstrike Stratagems, in that they are either situationally useful or small enough to not make a huge difference in gameplay.   
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 14, 2017, 05:00:21 PM
You just seem to dislike digital documents and are grouchy that marines are good.
I dislike how they will only update the balance digitally, as they can not possibly update the printed versions, without printing new versions and I bet those won't be free.
I also have no idea wether marines are going to be good or bad, but they are the only model we have received a points value for, and it's too low for any increased granularity. GW missed an opportunity here.

@GML
Quote
all point values are arbitrary if you are not aware of the system they used to come up with the points.
No, purely mathematically it's not granular enough to not be arbitrary. The statlines do not have any possible lowest common denominator. Heck the number given is even a prime.

I can also still use the models and terrain I already have, as I do not have a habit of destroying them/it after each use. I still use models that are over 20 years old.

@everyone
About the demon summoning, I think it's good what is to be done. Setting aside points for it while allowing to choose what to summon is a powerful tool. It will allow players to tweak their list depending on opposition and even on how the battle is currently going.

I'm not too fond of the stratagems, as it's essentially cheating and adds another layer of random luck to the game. Sure it might be able to be tactically useful, but it's essentially another version of rolling for warlord traits, psychic powers etc. And I really hope these random buffs would be gone. If there are more than 3 remembering all of them, or just having to weigh when to use them will be another time consumer.

Furthermore how about blocking the other player to use their stratagems as a stratagem or using those re-rolls for rules disputes, that could get really silly fast. :P
I guess one could just say, lets play with 3CP lists, but neither player gets to use any of them.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: murgel on May 14, 2017, 05:17:36 PM
Even if there is a veritable amphetamine parrot storm gathering here.
I'm still optimistic, I would be so with a 20 mile asteroid entering the atmosphere...

Anyway, I think GW is right in being prepared and accepting to the need for balance adjustments. There has never been a rules set I knew which was not in need for that.
Simply spoken, I don't think you can ever produce a set of rules which can go on unchanged forever. IF you want a dynamic, changing and challenging game. (Chess might be challenging but is hardly dynamic and surely not changing)
With new armies etc. coming out occasionally and new models regularly there will be need for adjustments.
Bedsides better have DLC and that on a fairly regular basis, with the company talking to us then a codex system with no interaction and no updates until a new edition.
Frankly I hope to see frequent balancing.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on May 14, 2017, 11:53:40 PM

@everyone
About the demon summoning, I think it's good what is to be done. Setting aside points for it while allowing to choose what to summon is a powerful tool. It will allow players to tweak their list depending on opposition and even on how the battle is currently going.

I'm not too fond of the stratagems, as it's essentially cheating and adds another layer of random luck to the game. Sure it might be able to be tactically useful, but it's essentially another version of rolling for warlord traits, psychic powers etc. And I really hope these random buffs would be gone. If there are more than 3 remembering all of them, or just having to weigh when to use them will be another time consumer.

Furthermore how about blocking the other player to use their stratagems as a stratagem or using those re-rolls for rules disputes, that could get really silly fast. :P
I guess one could just say, lets play with 3CP lists, but neither player gets to use any of them.

wait... are you serious here? essentially cheating? really? *facedesks* ok.... first.. what is the difference between this, and a character giving you something like this, or a power, or a warlord trait... or a damn card you draw! Nothing... at all...

Also, on the demon summoning bit, I actually think we will see it for more types of reserves than just summoning... drop pods maybe? outflank?

From the bits they have said on facebook, it seems that you now have a transport pool, and any unit (+a character, even if it goes over the transport number) can use said transport, the pool gives you 1 transport per unit chosen that has access to them. Having a drop pod army where you can choose to bring in a different unit (like summoning) would be very interesting, essentially say 350pts of your army is reserves, that you can spend how you wish etc.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 15, 2017, 09:11:27 AM
Also, on the demon summoning bit, I actually think we will see it for more types of reserves than just summoning... drop pods maybe? outflank?

From the bits they have said on facebook, it seems that you now have a transport pool, and any unit (+a character, even if it goes over the transport number) can use said transport, the pool gives you 1 transport per unit chosen that has access to them. Having a drop pod army where you can choose to bring in a different unit (like summoning) would be very interesting, essentially say 350pts of your army is reserves, that you can spend how you wish etc.

See, now *this* could be interesting. If I get to pick what comes in *and* I don't need an in-game event to trigger the arrival, that's a game-changer. As it stands with summoning (and with Pink Horrors), you need to burn a lot of in-game capital (Warp Charge) or lose troops before you can get more (or they come in totally at random, a la the Portalglyph or Warp Storm). Having to pay for troops under those circumstances is idiotic, unless you get them cheap.

On the other hand, if I set aside 250 of discretionary spending that can arrive with normal reserves, that is a totally new game. Not sure that I like it, per se, but it makes things very, very interesting.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 15, 2017, 03:56:28 PM
@Mr Draken:
Quote
wait... are you serious here? essentially cheating? really? *facedesks* ok.... first.. what is the difference between this, and a character giving you something like this, or a power, or a warlord trait... or a damn card you draw! Nothing... at all...
You should not ask questions you do not want the answers to.
CP's looks like a perfect thing to abuse, and I even gave you an example; using CP's for re-rolling rules disagreements. That is one of many excellent ways of losing friends with CP's.

If you do not know what the difference between CP's, characters giving auras, powers, warlord traits and ... a damn card you draw, you must have been living under a rock for the latest 2 editions.
But let me explain:
1. Character auras can easily be accounted for  and predicted both tactically and strategically.

2. Psychic powers  and warlord traits are stupidly random (for anyone except chaos and possibly orks) and unbalanced. You just need to be in luck of having the supplement that gives you the best tables to roll on, and then spam can mitigate the randomness somewhat. Still they are impossible to predict for the player using them, just like drawing a card. But not for the opponent

CP's almost fall into category 2 but are actually even worse, while psychic powers seems to have been somewhat closer to category 1. in 8th ed.

CP's can never be accounted for nor predicted by the opposing player, they can also not as far as we know be stopped, like psychic powers can.

CP's also have other issues like interrupting a players turn like a small kid crying because luck is against them, CP's will grant them exactly what they wish for.

If I was developing a game I would take, how you use the command points as we have been shown, as a joke, because it's that stupid.
There is no tactical way to use command points, they are all subject to luck, or more precisely, if you manage to get really unlucky they are good.
So if you manage to plan for when you have luck or not you are obviously cheating in one way or another.

@no one specific:
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases:
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: T’au Empire – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/15/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tau-empire/)
The stormsurge OTOH got a well deserved nerf, and the hype they build up for the sniper drones fade quickly once you take a look at the weapon stats. They will still make excellent cannonfodder it seems, especially as ablative wounds for characters.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 15, 2017, 04:45:02 PM
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...
I do sometimes wonder if we read the same articles, because I am not seeing where this idea of three shooting phases comes from at all.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 15, 2017, 07:15:42 PM
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...
I do sometimes wonder if we read the same articles, because I am not seeing where this idea of three shooting phases comes from at all.

I have to agree here... I see two shooting phases...

Quote from: Warhammer community - Tau Faction Focus
Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch.

What is their third shooting phase? Do you mean the pistols in CC? Cause that's a bloody joke then. In order to use their pistols, they must be in CC at the start of their own shooting phase. Meaning they didn't fall back after having been charged. Since they can get this nasty rule

Quote from: Warhammer community - Tau Faction Focus
The Stormsurge also has the Walking Battleship special rule which allows him to Fall Back from combat and still shoot

I can see falling back a fair bit. Granted that is for the riptide and there are a slew if finer details we don't know yet...


As to the Command points and Stratagems - where are you getting that they are random?

Quote from: Warhammer community - Stratagems
As the game plays on, you can use these Command Points to activate a variety of Stratagems. Many of these will be specific to certain missions or factions, but there are three that every army can use

Nothing in that says random to me... where do you see that form?

Now, I am very concerned that these will easily become over-powered smurf glorifying machines. As a DE player I am very used to my codex containing wargear and rules that explicitly excludes marines... So I am worried this could turn into a DE strategem of re-roll 1's to hit vs point ears for 6 CP while smurfs get a re-roll all dice of your choosing till the start of you next phase for 3 CP....

Hopefully this wont be the case...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 16, 2017, 08:19:24 AM
Very happy to see the Stormsurge scaled back a bit. Shooting twice was absolutely ridiculous especially when taken in squads... I like the Walking Battleship rule though. Thats very cool and thematic. You can nab him in combat, but he's gonna walk out of there and blow you away if you fail to kill him. Very cool.

I like how the Crisis Suits get "Fly" too. Thats neat... falling back from combat and shooting at Full BS is cool and cinematic.

Also of note is "Savior Protocols" on the Drones. Any Drone with 3" can take the hits for nearby Tau units. Very cool!

While I know Tau can be a very annoying army to face, just sitting there for god knows how long while your opponent just unloads on you, they are one of those armies you know you are gonna be in for a rough ride against unless you have a plan. I like the sound of how they work with Overwatch and the new Fall Back mechanic. I'm glad they kept Supporting Fire.  These guys just never stop shooting at you. Its their #1 tool and they are gonna live and die by it.

Playing Tau is always a fun challenge, especially with Melee but grabbing those little blue gits in combat is a thrill when you can pull it off. Very cool stuff. Looking forward to hearing about DE next up
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 16, 2017, 09:29:51 AM
As a Tau player, the most disappointing thing in the Tau preview is the giant Markerlight nerf. Re-rolling 1s on a BS3 blows. Like, really, really blows.

Granted, I tend not to run that many markerlights because they constantly die, but the loss of this and (I presume) Coordinated Firepower *and* re-rolls for twin-linking make the whole army a lot less accurate. Not crazy about that, given how they're supposed to be, like, super-duper accurate.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 16, 2017, 10:15:26 AM
Hmmm. I actually didn't notice that in regards to markerlights. May be my Eldar bias, but maybe its to differentiate the shooting of the two. Tau possess the highest volume of shooting, but perhaps the Eldar are the most accurate?

Just a thought. I'm sure that hit hard though.

Perhaps there will be higher BS on unit like Crisis Suits and the like though, to balance a bit.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 16, 2017, 11:16:46 AM
T'aus 3 shooting phases:
1. T'aus normal shooting phase
2. T'aus improved overwatch
3. T'aus Fly allows them to keep shooting even when assaulted.

T'au won't have any use for pistols, at least not the units with the "Fly" keyword, since they will be shooting with their guns instead.

Hopefully "Fly" replaces the JSJ jetpack move, which will restrict it to battlesuits and possibly drones, only.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 16, 2017, 11:48:59 AM
Hmmm. I actually didn't notice that in regards to markerlights. May be my Eldar bias, but maybe its to differentiate the shooting of the two. Tau possess the highest volume of shooting, but perhaps the Eldar are the most accurate?

Imperial Guard is the volume of shooting army. Tau is the Precision Teamwork Shooting army. Eldar is the "We Have Specialists For Everything" army.

Unless there is more to markerlights than advertised, I would expect to see them vanish from lists. Why bother with support units that only provide an 8% accuracy bump? 

Quote
Perhaps there will be higher BS on unit like Crisis Suits and the like though, to balance a bit.

I would hope so. I've always thought Crisis Suits should hit on 3s, anyway.

T'aus 3 shooting phases:
1. T'aus normal shooting phase
2. T'aus improved overwatch
3. T'aus Fly allows them to keep shooting even when assaulted.

#3 is not a phase. It's just #1 again, only you can't steal it with assault. Neither #1 nor #2 has really changed much for Tau, so none of that is anything new. You can take solace in the fact that it appears Light Infantry will be getting saves against everything the Tau do these days and Markerlights are garbage, so on balance it's all a big nerf bat for the Tau.

Quote
T'au won't have any use for pistols, at least not the units with the "Fly" keyword, since they will be shooting with their guns instead.

The Tau do not have pistols anyway. Like, none of them. There are precisely two individual models (not units--models) in the entire codex that have pistols, and one of them has to buy it.

Quote
Hopefully "Fly" replaces the JSJ jetpack move, which will restrict it to battlesuits and possibly drones, only.

I think this is pretty explicitly the case, yeah. Again, a nerf, as you will actually get to hit Suits in assault *before* they fly away, whereas before you could never catch them.

The Tau have been beaten down, seems to me. And this, incidentally, is part of why I was/am leery of tourney players doing the testing. How many tourney players hate Tau these days thanks to the stupid Riptide Wing?

Yeah, it's payback time. I note the Eldar seem to come out smelling like roses. How...convenient.  >:(
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 16, 2017, 12:21:29 PM
T'aus 3 shooting phases:
1. T'aus normal shooting phase
2. T'aus improved overwatch
3. T'aus Fly allows them to keep shooting even when assaulted.

T'au won't have any use for pistols, at least not the units with the "Fly" keyword, since they will be shooting with their guns instead.
Even if Fly allowed them to fire their weapons while in close combat, they would still only be able to do so in the shooting phase.  But that isn't the case.  If you had read the article you would have seen that Fly allows them to fall back and still shoot, whereas every other army that falls back can not do anything.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: kaldolaf on May 16, 2017, 12:39:45 PM
There is another aspect to the fly keyword I'm not liking.  This to me sounds like a USR just with a different name.  I was really liking the end of pages and pages of USRs.  Just renaming USRs to Keywords doesn't accomplish anything.

I'm hoping that markerlights will have more uses than just the reroll 1s, which as Wyddr put, amounts to an 8% increase in accuracy.  Heck, even for the Stormsurge shooting at 3+, the markerlight only amounts to an 11% increase.

Compare this to current.  1 marker light raises Tau accuracy from 50% to 66% for most units.  Our rare BS 4 units go from 66% to 83%.  Those are 16% and 17% increases, respectively.  Now if it ends up being we can spend multiple marker hits to increase the hit rolls that can be rerolled I'd be a little happier with that.  It would still take 2 marker hits to achieve what 1 does today (raise basic tau accuracy from 50% to 66%) and three marker hits would get us to 75%.  For units with 3+ BS, the second marker hit gets us to about 89%.  But I'll wait to see how exactly markerlights will work once we have the full rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 16, 2017, 01:49:14 PM
A crisis suit can fire 3 times where most other units can only fire once, that makes quite a difference. Dual burstcannons will deal 8 shots at BS4+, 8 more @BS6+ then another 8 @BS4+ thats 9.33 hits, and against MEQ it's 6.22 wounds and (assuming AP0) results in 2.07 dead MEQ statistically.
Compare this to a terminator with a heavy bolter (assuming AP-1) 3 shots @ BS3+ and 3 shots @ BS6+ is 2.5 hits 1,67 wounds and 0.83 dead MEQ.

Thats about triple the firepower on a comparrable mount, and I have not accounted for a possible -1 to hit if the terminator moves, that is hardly a nerf.

How about a scatterbike then:
4 shots @BS 3+ & 4 shots @BS6+ is 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and (assuming AP0) 0.74 MEQ kills.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 16, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
A crisis suit can fire 3 times where most other units can only fire once, that makes quite a difference. Dual burstcannons will deal 8 shots at BS4+, 8 more @BS6+ then another 8 @BS4+ thats 9.33 hits, and against MEQ it's 6.22 wounds and (assuming AP0) results in 2.07 dead MEQ statistically.
Compare this to a terminator with a heavy bolter (assuming AP-1) 3 shots @ BS3+ and 3 shots @ BS6+ is 2.5 hits 1,67 wounds and 0.83 dead MEQ.

Thats about triple the firepower on a comparrable mount, and I have not accounted for a possible -1 to hit if the terminator moves, that is hardly a nerf.

How about a scatterbike then:
4 shots @BS 3+ & 4 shots @BS6+ is 3.33 hits, 2.22 wounds and (assuming AP0) 0.74 MEQ kills.

So what you are saying is that in three player turns, the Crisis suit will fire three times?  That's not three shooting phases, that is three turns.  Frankly, I'd say there is just as much of a chance of that happening for the Terminator as there is for the Crisis Suit.  Why?  Because the Terminator is pretty damned survivable now, and will probably be beating some serious face in close combat to the point where it's not too far of a stretch to see them winning in a 1v1 fight.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 16, 2017, 03:17:52 PM
@GML: Haha :D Let's expand on my example then.

Here is how the crisis suit shoots:

Turn 1 player 1:
Crisis suit shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Crisis suit fires overwatch. (possibly along with buddies)
Turn 2 player 1:
Crisis suit moves away from combat at fires, again.


Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire.

As you can see the Terminator and the crisis suit is not fighting eachother in combat, they are both fighting MEQ's, but we can use GEQ or something else, same story.
If the opposing player can't make a Turn 1 assault even better for T'au, just keep on shooting.

According to what we know so far 8th ed Melee will be so dead that even the worms eating it's corpses, would have after a couple of generations crawled into someones yard, got dug up made into bait for fishing eaten by the fish, then the fish would have died shortly before poisoning someone to death.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 16, 2017, 03:24:33 PM
So you'll be equally upset if Swooping Hawks and/or Warp Spiders get the same ability?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 16, 2017, 04:18:17 PM
Dude. Terminators have powerfists. They don't even strike last (necessarily). Nothing is going to totally ignore their armor saves anymore. They have two wounds. Why the hell would they fall back from combat just to shoot a stormbolter?

You are not comparing apples to apples *at all*.

In your scenario (dual burst cannon crisis suits), you need to get within 18" of the target to shoot it. That is worryingly close, especially against fast moving units, as you stand a decent chance of charging the suits. Yeah, overwatch is a thing, but if you get past that (and you can probably get past it with certain units. Terminators, for instance), you will murder the crisis suits. There *is* no fall back, because Crisis Suits are fragile (they're Tau, remember?) and anything packing a halfway decent wallop is going to smoke them.

So, okay, say they survive said combat with 1-2 guys (no way they aren't losing one), they fall back and fire with reduced effectiveness and that is *their whole next shooting phase*.

There is no magical "third shooting phase" and getting into combat is objectively, entirely *terrible* for Tau. Also, and finally, the firepower of Crisis Suits has not substantially increased. They can shoot pretty much exactly as well as they used to (though they have the option for a third weapon to shoot at once, now, which, while nice, is very pricey).

No, this ruling means Crisis Suits are going to wind up in combat more often and shoot less effectively than before. Instead of kiting outside of charge range, they are going to soak it up and see if they survive. Good incentive to bring lots of drones, I guess.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 16, 2017, 05:04:37 PM
Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator kills what it is in combat with

Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire. Terminator shoots separate target normally.

I fixed that sequence of events for you.  Like you said, the Terminator and Crisis suit are fighting a MEQ opponent.  There is no way in hell a MEQ is surviving a round of combat against a Terminator.

This whole "sky is falling" attitude of yours is based entirely on missing information.  What we know about combat is that charging units strike first, then you alternate between units, units can voluntarily leave combat in their movement phase, and there is a fixed to hit value for every unit.

That's it.

Do we know exactly how things work out?  Do we know exactly what rules Terminators have?  Do we know how powerful Power Fists are?  Do we know anything of substantial value?

The answer to all of those is a really complicated two letter word.  No.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 16, 2017, 06:09:16 PM
8th is the biggest change ever, with what appears to be a focus on balancing the game. So we know 3 thing for sure.
1) Alot of stuff is going to be hit with the nerf bat.
2) Some stuff is going to be buffed
3) Army lists will change.

Given the amount of play testing, we should be fairly confidant that our armies will still be valid, we should also be confidant that if something is really out of whack, it will only be that way for 12months until the next "gernal handbook" is released, thats assuming they don't fix it in a FAQ before hand.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 16, 2017, 06:43:23 PM
Agreed. A lot of these predictions have a huge asterisk. Going off of info we have, though, it is honestly looking like Eldar will be making out comparatively better than Tau.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 16, 2017, 09:03:48 PM
But again, we are basing that determination off incomplete information.  It came up earlier, either in this thread or another, about the ramifications of tournament organizers being used to play test the system and help balance.  If anything, it makes me all the more encouraged that they are getting outside input from people that know how to break the game to make it less broken.

So the things from Tau that are being brought down needed it, and the things that are being beefed up need it as well.  I'm sure that things will actually balance out well in the end once we have a complete picture of the rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 17, 2017, 02:37:41 AM
Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator kills what it is in combat with

Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire. Terminator shoots separate target normally.

I fixed that sequence of events for you.  Like you said, the Terminator and Crisis suit are fighting a MEQ opponent.  There is no way in hell a MEQ is surviving a round of combat against a Terminator.

This whole "sky is falling" attitude of yours is based entirely on missing information.  What we know about combat is that charging units strike first, then you alternate between units, units can voluntarily leave combat in their movement phase, and there is a fixed to hit value for every unit.

That's it.

Do we know exactly how things work out?  Do we know exactly what rules Terminators have?  Do we know how powerful Power Fists are?  Do we know anything of substantial value?

The answer to all of those is a really complicated two letter word.  No.
Maybe you shouldn't have "Turn 1" twice, that's not fixing anything, but that is beside the point.
I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s
But just to prove you wrong on that assumption as well, 3 marines = 1 terminator pointswise, if those 3 marines assault that 1 terminator, they can't all be struck down by the terminators 2 attacks, not a chance since 2<3.
Even so the marines gets to strike first with their 6 attacks killing 0.33 terminators
0.67 terminators strike back with 1,33 attack killing 1.11 marines, it will by all game purposes most probably be a draw.

I also even explicitly included the phrase:
Quote
According to what we know so far...
Discussing what we do not know is pointless. Maybe each Attack characteristic will get D6 hits, so an assaulting assault terminator would get 3D6 attack on the charge. But that's pure speculation at this point.

@The GrimSqueaker:
I'm not upset, so yes I would get more upset if Warp Spiders and/or Swooping Hawks got the "Fly" ability, because of several reasons. Fluff, balance & GW lying again.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: volatilegaz on May 17, 2017, 07:03:13 AM
I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s

Fenris, you're entire argument that Tau get 3 shooting phases is based on them surviving combat, which is pretty big assault "what-if"
Even then, it's not actually 3 shooting phases, because it doesn't happen in a single turn.

I think it could be more accurately stated without the hyperbole that:

If a Tau unit with the Fly Keyword was assaulted and survived, it would be effectively able to shoot 3 times across 2 turns, whereas other units could only shoot once (if you ignore their relatively weak overwatch shots) in the same circumstances (unless they also had some overwatch buffs or the Fly keyword or other as yet unseen rules which could allow additional shooting).

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 17, 2017, 08:11:30 AM
I'm not upset, so yes I would get more upset if Warp Spiders and/or Swooping Hawks got the "Fly" ability, because of several reasons. Fluff, balance & GW lying again.

How would being given a rule to improve their mobility run contrary to their background?  As the rules are being designed along similar lines to Age of Sigmar, it's highly probable that this rule may be the only rule to grant the level of mobility that all jet pack type units require.  In addition, I'm curious as to how GW has lied.  Would you care to elaborate?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 17, 2017, 11:36:59 AM
Tactical Reserves! (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/)

Ooooh, I love it. This is the best one so far. Very excited to see how this all pans out!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 17, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
@Irisado:
Fluff:
Warp Spiders and Swooping hawks have nowhere near the same technology that T'au has.
Warp Spiders teleport through the warp, while the swooping hawks use their wings to fly by flapping. T'au crisis suits have jetpacks.
Balance:
Warp Spiders should be able to fend for them selves in combat, not flee. Maybe something to do with morale, because they loose friends in the warp every now and then so they are to some degree used to it. Also as long as they have flickerjump they don't need any more buffs.
Swooping Hawks don't need to get out of combat either, they need a reason to enter combat, and they need to be harder to hit when in the air.
GW lying:
They told us USR will be gone, if "Fly" becomes the new rule for all jump-infantry, it's still an USR.

@volatilegaz:
I actually just added on to what Frankie wrote:
Quote
Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch.
Hence being able to shoot at another moment where the basic rules says you can't, can not be that far fetched to call a 3rd shooting phase and AFAIK it will be with no restrictions.

Maybe we should talk about the poor Drukhari instead?
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Drukhari – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-drukhari-may17/)
Wyches will still be very dead unless they can assault from transports.
Edit: I like the new disintegrator cannon though :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 17, 2017, 12:58:07 PM
Tactical Reserves! (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/17/new-warhammer-40000-reserves-and-deep-striking-may17gw-homepage-post-4/)

Ooooh, I love it. This is the best one so far. Very excited to see how this all pans out!

A number of those concepts are exciting and will certainly make reserves more dynamic than previously.

@Irisado:
Fluff:
Warp Spiders and Swooping hawks have nowhere near the same technology that T'au has.
Warp Spiders teleport through the warp, while the swooping hawks use their wings to fly by flapping. T'au crisis suits have jetpacks.
Balance:
Warp Spiders should be able to fend for them selves in combat, not flee. Maybe something to do with morale, because they loose friends in the warp every now and then so they are to some degree used to it. Also as long as they have flickerjump they don't need any more buffs.
Swooping Hawks don't need to get out of combat either, they need a reason to enter combat, and they need to be harder to hit when in the air.
GW lying:
They told us USR will be gone, if "Fly" becomes the new rule for all jump-infantry, it's still an USR.

The narrative argument that you're making is not valid because all that's happening is that the rules are being simplified, assuming that all those unit types will have the same rule.  How advanced technology is represented in the rules does not change the narrative in any way.  The technology can remain described differently in the background, yet be implemented in the same or a similar way on the table.  It has been common practice in other sets of rules for years.

Warp Spiders have never been a great unit in close combat.  The Exarch apart, their close assault capability is average at best, leaning more towards poor.  Swooping Hawks have the same issue, except when using grenades on vehicles.  Either way though, it is still unknown how these Eldar units will work, so it's impossible to say whether there are going to balance issues.

It will not be a universal special rule in the sense that you are thinking of.  It will be like Age of Sigmar.  As a result, it's not a lie.  A change of mindset is needed for these rules, as it's the biggest shake up since second to third edition.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 17, 2017, 01:10:23 PM
Fly is merely what the Tau (I am not using T'au) call it. Swooping Hawks could have a similar skill called Flap You. This will be spelt out on their datasheet. It's not a USR as similar does not mean identical. Warp Spiders could have something along the same lines called Beam Me Up
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 17, 2017, 03:22:24 PM
Re: Dark Eldar:

I'm really not enjoying these sneak peeks overall, as they seem to be telling us stuff that is either (1) already true or (2) objectively false given what they say next.

So, Incubi are about as effective as they were before and arguably less, given that even basic marines will get a save and they don't automatically strike first. Meh.

Wyches are modestly better, yeah (I'm assuming they can assault from Raiders still), but a stiff breeze in the shooting phase is gonna kill them dead. Maybe they'll be extra fast to compensate?

Stats on the Dark Lance are as-expected. Stats on the Disintegrator are great! Bye-bye terminators!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 17, 2017, 04:15:50 PM
Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator kills what it is in combat with

Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire. Terminator shoots separate target normally.

I fixed that sequence of events for you.  Like you said, the Terminator and Crisis suit are fighting a MEQ opponent.  There is no way in hell a MEQ is surviving a round of combat against a Terminator.

This whole "sky is falling" attitude of yours is based entirely on missing information.  What we know about combat is that charging units strike first, then you alternate between units, units can voluntarily leave combat in their movement phase, and there is a fixed to hit value for every unit.

That's it.

Do we know exactly how things work out?  Do we know exactly what rules Terminators have?  Do we know how powerful Power Fists are?  Do we know anything of substantial value?

The answer to all of those is a really complicated two letter word.  No.
Maybe you shouldn't have "Turn 1" twice, that's not fixing anything, but that is beside the point.
Or that is intentional because the Terminators will kill a single MEQ opponent in close combat in Turn 1.

I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s
But just to prove you wrong on that assumption as well, 3 marines = 1 terminator pointswise, if those 3 marines assault that 1 terminator, they can't all be struck down by the terminators 2 attacks, not a chance since 2<3.
Even so the marines gets to strike first with their 6 attacks killing 0.33 terminators
0.67 terminators strike back with 1,33 attack killing 1.11 marines, it will by all game purposes most probably be a draw.
Let's just keep moving the goal posts so your point seems more and more valid.  Cause that makes sense.  You didn't mention anything about comparative points, you just said vs a MEQ opponent.  When you are referring to a single model, that would imply a single opponent.

I also even explicitly included the phrase:
Quote
According to what we know so far...
Discussing what we do not know is pointless. Maybe each Attack characteristic will get D6 hits, so an assaulting assault terminator would get 3D6 attack on the charge. But that's pure speculation at this point.
And yet, here we are... discussing what we don't know.  And here you are, crying that assault is dead when you don't have all of the information.

USR's are gone in the sense that there is an entire section of the rulebook dedicated to special rules.  Now the rules will be included either with the army special rules or unit specific.  Either way, they aren't universal.  Other factions may have similar rules, but they will be called something else or work another way.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 18, 2017, 03:28:43 AM
@GML: First off, stop misquoting me.
Secondly stop putting words in my mouth.
Thirdly you are the one moving the goalposts to try and punch holes in my conclusions.

You arbitrarily mix single and plural, when it suits you.
You actually think several terminators and a single MEQ model was the comparison I did, and not the other way around?

Well your flawed assumpions are the very reason your conclusion got way off target.
I guess you would feel 30 grey knights would have a fair fight with 5 gretchins too?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 18, 2017, 12:14:31 PM
Vehicles are up with more of the same we'd been expecting:
New Warhammer 40,000: Vehicles – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/18/new-warhammer-40000-vehicles-may18gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 18, 2017, 12:42:21 PM
Vehicles are up with more of the same we'd been expecting:
New Warhammer 40,000: Vehicles – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/18/new-warhammer-40000-vehicles-may18gw-homepage-post-4/)

The main thing that interests me is how all this is going to balance out vis-a-vis antitank weapons. I think it's clear that lascannons and lance weapons are going to be very important, but I'm really curious to see if the middle-weight AT weapons (Autocannon, Scatter/Multi Lasers, Krak Missiles, Plasma Cannons, Missile Pods) will be worth it any longer.

The A-Barge profile gives me some reason to hope, since the Toughness and Save are low enough for concentrated Autocannon fire to bring it down (as is appropriate). Before this, all the vehicles we'd seen (Space Marine Dread, Gorkanaut) were sporting T7+ and saves of 3+. An autocannon at current strength doing d3 wounds a hit and only a -1 AP would have some trouble scratching the paint there.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 18, 2017, 12:44:49 PM
These rules look very encouraging.  It's going to be much simpler to use vehicles now and that stat line for and Annihilation Barge does suggest that some vehicles will still be vulnerable to middle ranking weapons.  I think that these changes are very positive.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 18, 2017, 01:26:52 PM
@GML: First off, stop misquoting me.
Every time I have quoted you, I have not changed a single word that you have written.  So every quote has been accurate to what you have written.

Secondly stop putting words in my mouth.
Where?
Thirdly you are the one moving the goalposts to try and punch holes in my conclusions.

You arbitrarily mix single and plural, when it suits you.
You actually think several terminators and a single MEQ model was the comparison I did, and not the other way around?
Ah yes, arbitrarily.  Or it's a typo, because everyone is perfect when writing on the internet.  Let's ignore every time I used the word "Terminator" and instead focus on the one time I used "Terminators."

But let's address this whole moving of goalposts:

Your first statement was this:
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...
You claim Tau have 3 shooting phases, which would imply that Tau have three phases in which they can shoot in the same turn.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are referring to game turn, not player turn.

Your error is pointed out to not be the case what so ever in that there is no way that the Tau have three shooting phases in a (game) turn.

So you double down:
T'aus 3 shooting phases:
1. T'aus normal shooting phase
2. T'aus improved overwatch
3. T'aus Fly allows them to keep shooting even when assaulted.

T'au won't have any use for pistols, at least not the units with the "Fly" keyword, since they will be shooting with their guns instead.
Here, you make it clear that you are interpreting the wording of Fly from the article to mean that Tau get to fire in the assault phase, which again is shown to be wrong.  You then think that showing the math is going to prove your point, when all it does is reinforce that your initial point about 3 shooting phases is incorrect.

So you try to reassert your point with this:
Here is how the crisis suit shoots:

Turn 1 player 1:
Crisis suit shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Crisis suit fires overwatch. (possibly along with buddies)
Turn 2 player 1:
Crisis suit moves away from combat at fires, again.


Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire.

As you can see the Terminator and the crisis suit is not fighting eachother in combat, they are both fighting MEQ's, but we can use GEQ or something else, same story.
If the opposing player can't make a Turn 1 assault even better for T'au, just keep on shooting.
Your flopping between a plural use for MEQ, and singular for GEQ, would imply that the plural is due to the fact that you are referring to to separate engagements.  At no point did you clearly state that you are going for an equal valued opponent.  When I point that out, then you bring out the idea that you clearly meant for the engagement to be a 3v1 fight.

What it all comes down to is, quite simply, this:
You stated that the Tau get 3 shooting phases, which is incorrect because they are able to shoot in three separate player turns.  You can throw math out all you want and change how things match up, but in the end you are wrong.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 18, 2017, 03:43:58 PM
I wish they would have used a different vehicle, like a Rhino or something more "simple". Barges have shielding that increase their AV currently. Without seeing the whole datasheet this really doesn't say much about the barge.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 18, 2017, 03:48:59 PM
Yeah, agreed--it could still be a lot tougher than it looks. I don't think the purpose was to show us how an A-barge works so much as show a typical profile, though.

Incidentally, I love the idea that running over people (ie "assaulting with vehicles") actually causes damage now. Always thought Tank Shock was needlessly underpowered.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 18, 2017, 04:20:56 PM
Lots of good stuff in today's live Q&A:

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/ (https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 18, 2017, 04:46:05 PM
Really like the idea of the vehicles being dangerous in combat. I'm sure chain snares and the various bladevanes on the Dark Eldar vehicles are gonna be nasty. Really intriguing stuff.

I do wish they'd give a little more info though. The big question of disembarking and assaulting in the same turn has really been on my mind and I'm sure other people's mind as well.

I do think they could sprinkle a little bit more crunch into these articles. All in all though I'm still loving everything they've revealed. The Q&A was super solid and I learned a lot. The info on Drop Pods was pretty surprising, but so was the change to reserves. I like having to have more units on the table even though it'll really hurt the way I play. It'll force more tough defensive units into lists if you want to beta-strike through reserves.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 18, 2017, 05:05:46 PM
err vehicles now get to charge, has there been any fine print around this? for example how the unit in an open topped thing is handled?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 18, 2017, 05:09:45 PM
In what manner? We've read that DE get to use their pistols out of an open topped transport for instance.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 18, 2017, 05:23:19 PM
@GML: First off, stop misquoting me.
Every time I have quoted you, I have not changed a single word that you have written.  So every quote has been accurate to what you have written.
Just to grab one misquote:
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...
I used a ":" then a Link, explaining it. not "..."

Quote
Secondly stop putting words in my mouth.
Where?
Right here:
Quote
You claim Tau have 3 shooting phases, which would imply that Tau have three phases in which they can shoot in the same turn.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are referring to game turn, not player turn.
I never mentioned the same turn, I was referring to the article which I provided a link to in the same sentence. Would you like me to cut your sentences in half when I quote you?
You are building up strawmen arguments and then attacking me for something I didn't even say.


Quote
Thirdly you are the one moving the goalposts to try and punch holes in my conclusions.

You arbitrarily mix single and plural, when it suits you.
You actually think several terminators and a single MEQ model was the comparison I did, and not the other way around?
Ah yes, arbitrarily.  Or it's a typo, because everyone is perfect when writing on the internet.  Let's ignore every time I used the word "Terminator" and instead focus on the one time I used "Terminators."
No the focus was that you made an error in assuming it was a single MEQ model, and not an opponent playing a MEQ army. Then you started to attack my conclusion from the wrong point of view.

Quote
But let's address this whole moving of goalposts:

Your first statement was this:
On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...
You claim Tau have 3 shooting phases, which would imply that Tau have three phases in which they can shoot in the same turn.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are referring to game turn, not player turn.

Your error is pointed out to not be the case what so ever in that there is no way that the Tau have three shooting phases in a (game) turn.
Yet again you attack the strawman, I never mentioned "Turn". I was referring to Frankie's article. I suggest you read it before you make any more assumptions.

Quote
Your flopping between a plural use for MEQ, and singular for GEQ, would imply that the plural is due to the fact that you are referring to to separate engagements.  At no point did you clearly state that you are going for an equal valued opponent.  When I point that out, then you bring out the idea that you clearly meant for the engagement to be a 3v1 fight.

What it all comes down to is, quite simply, this:
You stated that the Tau get 3 shooting phases, which is incorrect because they are able to shoot in three separate player turns.  You can throw math out all you want and change how things match up, but in the end you are wrong.
Again you make faulty assumptions building a strawman and attacking the semantics.
I do not know how you play your games, but I mostly play with equal points on both sides.
I agree with you that T'au do not get 3 shooting phases during the same player turn nor in the same game turn, I even spelled it out for you, that it takes 3 player turns.
But again if you read the article, you will understand that I am just adding a third phase to Frankie's two phases, which I also proved to you based on the firepower T'au can put out during these three phases.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 18, 2017, 06:06:34 PM
In what manner? We've read that DE get to use their pistols out of an open topped transport for instance.

Just finished watching the Q&A and there wasn't anything else in thee about it, so I suspect I'll have to wait and see now.

It will be interesting to see if a vehicle charges, if the unit can jump out and start swinging as well.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on May 18, 2017, 06:18:14 PM
liking the new vehicle rules.   Especially with being able to assault.   Finally a simplier way than the rediculousness of tank shock with was too much math and too lengthy.   

Another plus in my book.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 19, 2017, 10:22:48 AM
Close Combat Weapons! (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/19/new-warhammer-40000-close-combat-weapons-may19gw-homepage-post-4/)

Most of this is as-expected. A couple interesting notes:

-Power Fists and how they're dealing with "Unwieldy" is very interesting. I like it.

-Chainswords *finally* have something going for them again!

-The Reaper Chainsword becomes the second weapon we've seen to just do flat damage rather than having to roll. I like this a good deal, as it gives bigger weapons a way to do more consistent damage rather than just pinging random wounds off things. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 19, 2017, 10:30:58 AM
I love the change in the rules for Chainswords and Power Fists.  I think that we're going to see a lot more variation in close combat weapons selected for units in eighth edition.  These are excellent changes.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 19, 2017, 10:37:06 AM
I like the stuff overall but looking at it with an Eldar-bias I gotta wonder....

Banshees - 1 Attack at S3/Ap-3
Scorpions  - 2 Attacks at S3/Ap-0

That's pretty bad. I guess Scorpions will NEED those mortal wound Mandiblasters and Banshees will NEED their oldschool Bansheemask rules... I assume that pistols will no longer give an extra attack and instead be used, well, as described during the Pistols-Teaser we saw earlier. Then again, our Aspect Warriors might have some special versions of those weapons, but I doubt it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 19, 2017, 11:03:23 AM
It's too early to draw conclusions about how many attacks such assault specialists may have though.  Since characteristics will be data sheet based, you may find that they have more attacks than you believe, which would balance the problems that you're referring to.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 19, 2017, 11:05:18 AM
It *does* seem as if a bonus attack for charging is not guaranteed (going off of how they describe Khorne daemons as getting a bonus attack "for charging"). If the overall number of attacks in combat goes down, I can see how combat would go a lot faster.

Of course, then combat won't be quite as decisive as it was.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 19, 2017, 11:59:36 AM
Back to the big lads: Knights time.
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Imperial Knights – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/19/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-imperial-knights/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 19, 2017, 12:06:14 PM
Players are going to have to roll rather a lot of dice for an Imperial Knight, given the number of random elements it has in relation to its attacks.  On the plus side, I do like the way that they function more as they would in Epic now, in that they are vulnerable to everything, but that small arms fire will have to be lucky to do any significant damage.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 19, 2017, 12:16:24 PM
I like the stuff overall but looking at it with an Eldar-bias I gotta wonder....

Banshees - 1 Attack at S3/Ap-3
Scorpions  - 2 Attacks at S3/Ap-0


That's all guess-work though. Scorpion chainswords are different to regular chainswords already, they may be still.
Banshees might be weilding something new; "banshee blades" ( :D ) that do something different.
And as Iri says, number of attacks could well be different.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 19, 2017, 02:06:10 PM
It looks to me like the LoW issue is being handled in a very interesting way. If I read that right, the only way there to take them is in a detachment of 3-5...

Being forced to take at least 3 means you will almost never see them in smaller games.

I like it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 19, 2017, 02:14:36 PM
I wouldn't be so sure of that. That detachment card seems to be designed for people who do want groups of LoW wandering around murdering things. I'm certain other detachments would allow at least one LoW in a group of other lesser murdery things.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on May 19, 2017, 02:29:42 PM
I would imagine that there will be a heavy support centric FOC with LOW's in tow.  Like the basic one but substituting Troops with Heavy Support, and 1 LOW option for every 3 Heavy Support options.

Perfect for an IG tank company lead by a Baneblade for example.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 19, 2017, 06:47:05 PM
I think the power weapons are a bit underwhelming, but if they are cheap enough in points, they are fine and just as expected. Chainswords will definitely be the goto weapon most of the time.
Let's mathhammer a space marine with either chainsword or powersword against guardsmen:
Chainsword:
1,33 hits->0.89 wounds->0,59 kills.
Powersword:
0,67 hits->0,44 kills.
With a bonus attack for charging both gets 0.89 kills.

As for the knights they are no big surprise, more than that GW giving them a faction focus. The 5 models or less thingy is a bit odd, but I like the flinging of dead biggies.

As for the vehicles now able to assault, I think it will be great for Orks and Dark eldar. Not a big fan of Dark eldars new PFP though, it might become tedious.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 19, 2017, 08:36:37 PM
It looks to me like the LoW issue is being handled in a very interesting way. If I read that right, the only way there to take them is in a detachment of 3-5...

Being forced to take at least 3 means you will almost never see them in smaller games.

I like it.

They responded to someone asking this question. They said there will still be ways to take a single Knight alongside your normal units.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 20, 2017, 12:05:26 AM
Hmm, I own 5. Hmm! Well now finally something I really like about the new. I've liked a lot of the teasers better then I thought but this one sings songs to me.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 20, 2017, 05:31:27 AM
I like the stuff overall but looking at it with an Eldar-bias I gotta wonder....

Banshees - 1 Attack at S3/Ap-3
Scorpions  - 2 Attacks at S3/Ap-0

That's pretty bad. I guess Scorpions will NEED those mortal wound Mandiblasters and Banshees will NEED their oldschool Bansheemask rules... I assume that pistols will no longer give an extra attack and instead be used, well, as described during the Pistols-Teaser we saw earlier. Then again, our Aspect Warriors might have some special versions of those weapons, but I doubt it.

If pistols no longer give an additional CC attack, then I would imagine the stat line would be buffed. The Q&A session said that melee is going to dish out more damage than before. So a dedicated melee unit with only two s3 attacks would be pathetic.

Basically we are going to have to wait, but my best guess would be scorpion chain sword would be basically the same as is now. Banshee, we already know get to strike first and are faster, the question is what else do the get if the power weapon is nerfed yet again.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 20, 2017, 01:59:36 PM
As stated, fortifications follow the same system as everyone else with S, T, W, and a S+.
http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/20/new-warhammer-40000-stronghold-assault-may20gw-homepage-post-4/ (http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/20/new-warhammer-40000-stronghold-assault-may20gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 20, 2017, 02:58:02 PM
It will be interesting to see when and how their stats degrade. Will they have close combat attacks? Hmmm...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 20, 2017, 03:22:30 PM
We can at least be certain they won't, in the majority of cases, be charging anyone.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 20, 2017, 08:53:27 PM
We can at least be certain they won't, in the majority of cases, be charging anyone.

In Soviet Russia, ramparts assault YOU!

In all honesty, I wouldn't put it past the orks.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 20, 2017, 10:39:08 PM
I was thinking more Tyranids and way out there Necrons. Where what you may think was solid is more a case of conceptual reality.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 21, 2017, 03:51:04 AM
I could definitely see a Necron building stalking characters with an aura lowering their stats in some way.
I'd definitely be a bit concerned with a greenglowing barn following me around, jinxing whatever I do.

With T10+ on buildings I think vehicles with T10+ will be rare.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 21, 2017, 07:01:37 AM
I could definitely see a Necron building stalking characters with an aura lowering their stats in some way.
I'd definitely be a bit concerned with a greenglowing barn following me around, jinxing whatever I do.

This image is hilarious.

And, incidentally, not all that dissimilar from a Monolith.

Quote
With T10+ on buildings I think vehicles with T10+ will be rare.

I think you're right. Baneblades/Titans, maybe.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 21, 2017, 07:46:12 AM
Really happy about these being included in the main rule set. I think the toughest part of organizing these games was getting a good rule set that was easily available to people. These rules would always be released at the END of an edition too... so I'd pick them up, the ruleset would change over and half the stuff would be invalidated. Nice to see its ready at launch.

These type of games are what I'm primarily interested in playing too. Can't wait
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Saim-Dann on May 21, 2017, 09:56:45 AM
It's all horsepucky till 8th ed arrives.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 21, 2017, 10:35:35 AM
Transports are up:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/)

Assaulting from transports has been confirmed.
Looking at the speed of the transport, Aeldari infantry getting M8 is a qualified guess.

Still if your assault unit has pistols, they do not really need to disembark for the assault, just stay on board and fire pistols while the transport tanks all the wounds.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 21, 2017, 11:00:45 AM
I foresee DE, Quins, and Eldar to a lesser extent moving that transport behind the squad they are bout to charge so the unit can't fall back....

Same effect but now we have to really work for it... I really like the tactical flexibility there.

Although I am sad to see that a Lucky lascannon could still drop a vehicle (starweaver yes) in one shot... I am hoping my starweavers can retain some form of invul save...

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 21, 2017, 12:31:47 PM
Imo it's safe to assume that Harlequins will keep their ++Saves, including their vehicles (because: confirmed for DE). Also, after reading about the Tyranid Faction focus I'm curious as to how basic Harlequins will look ruleswise. They'll dread the 1s when their Starweavers explode but seeing what Genestealers might do in CC, I'm expecting some really crazy things for the clows  8)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 21, 2017, 01:26:04 PM
Those rules for transports look very promising to me.  It seems that they are going to be sufficiently simple, yet be sufficiently flexible to be of use.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 21, 2017, 01:53:56 PM
and here are the Swarms.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tyranids/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-tyranids/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 21, 2017, 01:57:03 PM
I cannot tell you guys how freaking stoked I am! Assaulting out of a transport has been the #1 thing (in addition to short time for games) that I've wanted. Oh man this is such great news for assault armies... Berserkers + Blood Angels + Space Wolves + Carcharodons etc. using Rhinos, Scorpions + Banshees + Storm Guardians all assaulting out of Serpents... wow. Also the transports charging in to absorb overwatch? With Dark Eldar this is soooo thematic especially when taking chainsnare upgrades and the like. I remember in 3rd ed. Wave Serpents had a similar upgrade...

The combo I'm super excited about is taking 6 Dragons + 6 Banshees riding in the same Serpent... Dragons pop the enemy transport and Banshees assault the contents. Such a points saver too with units hitching a ride in the same transport. Damn! Great, great news.

Also to a lesser extent I was listening to Signals from the Frontline and Reece confirmed that he and Frankie were playing games well above 1850pts in 60-90 minutes. Fantastic! I also think he let slip cover not affecting charging units... so Incubi no longer have to go last when assaulting units in cover! Great news for the Visarch too.

The Tyranid reveal was sick too. The Genestealers look nasty! With assault out of reserves all but confirmed its a huge buff to them. Tyranids are hands down my favorite army to play against. I'm really looking forward to them becoming popular again.

Today's update was fantastic all around. Definitely the most excited I've been throughout this whole deal.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 21, 2017, 05:37:58 PM
Transports are up:
http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/ (http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/21/new-warhammer-40000-transports-may21gw-homepage-post-4/)

Assaulting from transports has been confirmed.
Looking at the speed of the transport, Aeldari infantry getting M8 is a qualified guess.

Still if your assault unit has pistols, they do not really need to disembark for the assault, just stay on board and fire pistols while the transport tanks all the wounds.

Yes we can assault from transports, but you can only disembark BEFORE the transport moves, so it messes up shooting and assaulting still takes 2 turns to setup. Given disembarking happens at the start of the movement phase does that mean you can disembark after DS?


The combo I'm super excited about is taking 6 Dragons + 6 Banshees riding in the same Serpent... Dragons pop the enemy transport and Banshees assault the contents. Such a points saver too with units hitching a ride in the same transport. Damn! Great, great news.

Disembarking at the start of the movement phase stuffs that combo up a bit, it gives your enemy a chance to hit the gas and certainly get out of melta range, if not out of range entirely.

Light skimmers should be T6. Right now lasgun and bolters wound it on the same roll.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 21, 2017, 05:40:31 PM
Light skimmers should be T6. Right now lasgun and bolters wound it on the same roll.
Heavy Bolters got a huge boost by now causing damage on 4+ instead of 5+.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 21, 2017, 05:53:02 PM
The new assaulting from transports is the same as it was in 5th ed, if memory serves. Wasn't that crazy then, isn't now. Guess it depends on how tough the vehicle is.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 21, 2017, 06:31:27 PM
The new assaulting from transports is the same as it was in 5th ed, if memory serves. Wasn't that crazy then, isn't now. Guess it depends on how tough the vehicle is.
Wasn't 5th the edition where they flat out removed assaulting from transports, and 4th where they allowed it if the vehicle didn't move first?

All of these old editions are blending together in the mishmash of what used to be allowed.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 21, 2017, 06:45:21 PM
You might be right, but I'm not sure. In any case, the enemy has a turn to react. That's good. No Rhino rush.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on May 22, 2017, 03:08:22 AM
I guess vehicle acces points won't be a thing anymore and we'll be able to disembark through the front of our Skimmers? Also, I'm not that impressed by "assaulting after disembark", because of what other's said. Still better than the current rules though.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 22, 2017, 07:06:29 AM
@Magneb- I don't think it should be too much of a problem. The Dragons attack run is pretty obvious as things stand now. I'm usually able to make that T2 tank/knight/vehicle kill pretty easy, turbo-boosting T1 disembarking T2. With battle-focus remaining in play I wouldnt worry too much about.

Also the 2 turn wait was how it worked in 5th edition and while not as nice as using a DE Raider, its still a HUGE improvement over the 3 turn setup where your troops have to get out and try weather a round of shooting, like it was in 6th and 7th. From an Eldar perspective, with Banshees being one of the fastest units in the game (or so they say), I think its gonna be a great tool in the arsenal.

With other armies like Blood Angels, Wolves etc. where you are probably gonna spam assault units, if you can establish board control, you'll have a great chance at cornering a good chunk your opponents army and making that turn 2 assault
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 22, 2017, 07:50:07 AM
I guess vehicle acces points won't be a thing anymore and we'll be able to disembark through the front of our Skimmers?
I don't see that going.  Losing armour values doesn't indicate that they are removing access hatches.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 22, 2017, 09:03:15 AM
However, with the removal of AV, there's no good reason not to pivot the vehicle any way you please. So, de facto, you can disembark from anywhere.

Come to think of it, will fire arcs still be a thing? They keep saying vehicles behave like every other model, so maybe they're gone.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 22, 2017, 10:39:47 AM
Come to think of it, will fire arcs still be a thing? They keep saying vehicles behave like every other model, so maybe they're gone.
I can see them keeping fire arcs for vehicles to try and maintain some semblance of thematics.  If they keep hatches and fire arcs, then there is still a strategic element in that you have to turn your vehicle to unload your units, which may prevent you from firing certain weapons.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 22, 2017, 11:28:38 AM
Yeah, as I was writing the first thing (about how there's nothing stopping you from pointing your vulnerable backside at the target), it occurred to me that the only problem *might* be fire arcs.

But then they might just have ditched those, too. That would be super weird (I hope they keep them in), but I can see them doing it just to get rid of that one issue.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 22, 2017, 04:36:50 PM
I'd be happy if firearcs goes away, having to debate wether my underslung weapons can actually draw a LoS through the vehicles own hull, just because I did not convert my models to be more obvious about that, or arguments over will that immobilized war walker be able to shoot my tank nr 2, because I "accidentally" nudged the war walker model to not be within an 22.5 degree angle anymore.

I've had TO's forcing a 4+ on these, luckily I won the roll, but still very annoying.

Any rules that prevent these kind of rulebenders will be a blessing.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 23, 2017, 04:41:35 AM
The release date has been announced and it's going to be 17th June.  It also appears as though there will be hard copies of the rulebook and a boxed set released on that day.  The boxed set, called Dark Imperium, predictably includes Marines, but has Deathguard as the opposing faction, which makes for a refreshing change.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Stormbane on May 23, 2017, 09:01:48 AM
The release date has been announced and it's going to be 17th June.  It also appears as though there will be hard copies of the rulebook and a boxed set released on that day.  The boxed set, called Dark Imperium, predictably includes Marines, but has Deathguard as the opposing faction, which makes for a refreshing change.

All the info you need here:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/warhammer-40000-launch-date-announced-may22gw-homepage-post-1/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/warhammer-40000-launch-date-announced-may22gw-homepage-post-1/)

In short, all the Marines are Primaris Marines. Facing off against Death Guard (Also all new sculpts).

Main boxset includes the Hardback Rulebook. Rulebook is available separately. If you'd prefer, the basic rules (Not including advanced rules, background and scenarios) are available to download for free.

There are a bunch of extra bits and pieces on sale too, such as the combat gauge seen in AoS. Command Dice, Wound Trackers (More dice) and then some cool little objective markers.

Most importantly, the books allowing you to play any current army are also being released in the form of Index books (Softback). This allows everyone to play their current armies (Although I doubt it includes FW entries) from Day 1. That's huge as far as I'm concerned.

I'm getting genuinely excited about this release! Anybody else?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 23, 2017, 09:50:38 AM
I am beyond stoked. Everything I've seen thus far, is exactly what I wanted in terms of rules. All the free rules etc. was beyond all my expectations.

I'm also pumped about the accessories available. I love all the 40k themed dice, wound markers etc. Also those objectives are freaking phenomenal! Perfect for the terrain I've collected. I really cannot wait for all this stuff.

The various reveals on transports, increased durability of vehicles and standard MC's, the reveals on Tyranids and the speed of the game are all the big things I wanted. More for my opponents than myself, because being familiar with their collections it seems like a huge buff which I'm really excited about. I want to be challenged facing classic armies... and that seems to be a priority for GW this time around... making classic builds, classic units better than ever.

So yeah I'm beyond pumped. I know I'm usually really optimistic about new releases, but I think this is the most excited I've been since all the anticipation I felt about the release of the 6th edition Eldar Codex.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 23, 2017, 09:57:00 AM
This *does* look awesome. Those models in the boxed set (especially the Death Guard) look pretty.

After squinting at which armies are in which Index, seems like I need to buy 4 out of 5 of them to get the rules for all my current armies.  :-\

I'll probably end up getting the 5th, too, given that I like Necrons and Dark Eldar and play against Eldar fairly often.

So, yeah, come mid June, I'm going to be out a lot of money.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 23, 2017, 12:00:30 PM
Speaking of the Death Guard
http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-death-guard/ (http://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-death-guard/)

Edit: Orks on Thursday.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 23, 2017, 12:18:54 PM
I wonder whether datasheets will be available as free downloads along with the basic rules.  That is not made clear by the announcement today.

Regarding the Death Guard, I see that the Plague Zombies of old have returned, just with a different name.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 23, 2017, 12:27:38 PM
I wonder whether datasheets will be available as free downloads along with the basic rules.  That is not made clear by the announcement today.

I'm now wondering about that as well. Previously I'd presumed they would be based on prior statements. We'll see though. Still living in the World of Limited Information.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 23, 2017, 01:28:54 PM
Regarding the Death Guard, I see that the Plague Zombies of old have returned, just with a different name.

Meh. Plague Zombies have been around for a while now. They've just got models now (and pretty good ones, as it happens).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 23, 2017, 07:10:47 PM
They said that we will have everything we need to start playing on day 1 for free. So the core rules and data sheets one could presume will be available for free. However, you will have to use the power level system. I suspect the point costs will be in the index books (as well as the data sheets).

Meh, looks like I'm going to be buying 4 books anyway (BRB, Eldar/Necrons, Marines (Blood Angels), and the Imperium (Scions+Assassins). Luckily, one less book than normal in my instance. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 23, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
Ahh that's cute, they put the Nercon's in the same book as all the Eldar Factions :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on May 23, 2017, 08:04:59 PM
Just to note. FW announced they will have marines and chaos books out on 8th release. The rest of their stuff will be out by the end of june.

Link Here: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/23/forge-world-and-the-new-warhammer-40000/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 23, 2017, 11:54:58 PM
So I will likely just buy the Xenos: 1 codex.

I still wonder if the matched play points cost will be in the 5 books or in the big one.
If matched play points are in the 5 books, I probably won't need to buy the 280 page one, as it contains mostly fluff and scenarios.

Sure fluff can be nice, especially with the time moving forward, but I won't need it on the release date.
As for the primarines and the nurgleguard I couldn't care less. GW is boring never giving the xenos a starter box. I mean they could pair up all armies in boxes if they wanted to.
Or even allow you to pick 2 armies with your starter box.

As for scenarios, in my meta no-one has played any of the scenarios as they are in the big book for the latest 3 edition anyway, especially not at tournaments.

Anyhow I will likely just grab the free 4 pages and printout points costs added onto the datasheets, when in for a game, then I'll use a pencil to keep track of things on the 1 use datasheet copies.

If codex or index books will restart the creep, I'll just ask people to play basic 8th ed, as I hope that will have a nice balance between armies.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 24, 2017, 07:27:11 AM
They said that we will have everything we need to start playing on day 1 for free. So the core rules and data sheets one could presume will be available for free. However, you will have to use the power level system. I suspect the point costs will be in the index books (as well as the data sheets).

I think that this sounds about right.  It would mirror how they've organised Age of Sigmar, in that the points system ended up being in the General's handbook.  I'd rather that they used the points system with the free rules as well, but I'm expecting to be disappointed in this regard.

GW is boring never giving the xenos a starter box.

The third edition starter boxed set included Dark Eldar as one of the armies.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 24, 2017, 08:58:47 AM
GW is boring never giving the xenos a starter box.

The third edition starter boxed set included Dark Eldar as one of the armies.



Second edition starter was Orks, as was 5th ed. 4th edition was Tyranids.

I imagine what Fenris *means* to say is "the starter set is never Craftworld Eldar."  ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 24, 2017, 10:58:12 AM
For a very limited version of never he was nearly not completely wrong.

A new day means it's Forgeworld time.
New Warhammer 40,000: A Forge World Datasheet! – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 24, 2017, 04:05:39 PM
Another worry I have is that they stated you can play the army you have now in 8th edition as well. While I can assume the data sheets for my Tempestus Scions will be in the imperial index book, I truly question if I can still take them as a battleforged, stand alone army.

I'm also worried that Black Guardians will only be available to the Ynnari faction, and not as a stand alone formation that I can use a single force. I hope, in the least, they make Black Guardians an elite choice for both Ynnari and CWE.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 24, 2017, 06:27:13 PM
Some info plus answers to some questions:

The starter box is £95
Rule book will be £35
Each Index/Codex book will be £15.

Index books contain a small bit of background, army-wide rules and data sheets for every single unit currently available.
Match Play points are in the Index books.

As far as I could tell, all current factions/armies are covered and payable the same as they are currently. So Tempestus Scions for example have their own section and are a playable Battle Forged army.

PDF rules will be available on 17th; GW/Warhammer stores will have a limited supply of free printed rule booklets too. If you've bought Dark Vengeance since April 22nd, you'll get a rules booklet also, along with all the rules for the models in DV.
GW stores will be doing intros and demos of the new rules from the 3rd (pre-order day).

The models in the starter kit are BEAUTIFUL! Seriously. GW stores should have a handful of examples available to show off as of today.


A few of you have said about expecting free data sheets on release day- where did you see that too..? Can you link a source please? :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 24, 2017, 06:44:59 PM
GW is boring never giving the xenos a starter box.

The third edition starter boxed set included Dark Eldar as one of the armies.



Second edition starter was Orks, as was 5th ed. 4th edition was Tyranids.

I imagine what Fenris *means* to say is "the starter set is never Craftworld Eldar."  ;)
Not at all, I wouldn't mind a starter set with Necrons vs Tau.
So far we have had: (with reservations for missing a box or two)
5x Spice Marines
2x Orks
1x Aeldari
1x Tyranids
1x Chaos Spice Marines
and now
PSM vs CSM

That is 2/3 of these boxes factions, that has a Spice marine flavor.
Even Kroot vs SoB or IG would be a fresh breeze.
If my mind isn't pulling tricks on me, I think there was a box with SM vs Eldar back in Rogue trader or possibly necromunda, since I inherited my first guardians from a friend back in 2nd edition. A box of 6 Guardians, with a sticker "now includes shuriken catapults".

Each Index/Codex book will be £15.

Match Play points are in the Index books.
This is Awesome :D 170SEK thats two pizza's ;) Best news I've heard in a long time, thanx. :D
I might just order something extra, to share the shipping cost.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 24, 2017, 07:12:33 PM
Rule book will be £35
Each Index/Codex book will be £15.

So for Aussies
Rule book will be around the price of a codex/supplement ~$84
Each Index/Codex book will be close to the generals handbook ~$42

will be interesting to see if the free stuff is literally the same as the hard copies.



Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 24, 2017, 08:14:39 PM

A few of you have said about expecting free data sheets on release day- where did you see that too..? Can you link a source please? :)

I believe they originally stated something to the effect of "you will have everything you need to play, for free, on day one of release". I'll have to dig back through to see if that is correct or I altered it in my head somehow. If they did say "everything we need", one would assume you would get the data sheets for free as that would be pivotal to knowing how to use your models.

The catch, is the points for matched play are in the Index books. If you want free-to-play, you would be stuck with the power level system to create your lists.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 24, 2017, 09:48:27 PM
That is 2/3 of these boxes factions, that has a Spice marine flavor.

Wish I'd picked up those starters now. I only have a Ginger and a Posh and now I'd like to have the full squad.  :)

I believe they originally stated something to the effect of "you will have everything you need to play, for free, on day one of release".

Looking back they only seem to mention the core rules. Myself and others appear to have presumed without our pants on, as it were.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 24, 2017, 11:47:24 PM
Ah! The catch is revealed. There's always a catch. But if it's like AoS, the original was bring whatcha got and then if you want points. Ya gotta pay. Figures humph!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2017, 12:04:11 AM
Rule book will be £35
Each Index/Codex book will be £15.

So for Aussies
Rule book will be around the price of a codex/supplement ~$84
Each Index/Codex book will be close to the generals handbook ~$42

will be interesting to see if the free stuff is literally the same as the hard copies.
For Canadians we're looking at $70 for the rulebook and $30 for the indexes.  That really isn't bad if the points are in the indexes.  You don't have to get the rulebook if you don't want all of the extra stuff and just want to play with the core rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 12:06:33 AM
I'll be getting the rulebook as I *want* the extra stuff. Only the one codex to begin with as there's no hurry or rush. If it looks good I'll pick up the others.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 25, 2017, 12:09:17 AM
My brother is getting the starter set. He doesn't play just builds so I'm gonna chuck $25 in and get the books. I'm a happy camper.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2017, 01:08:13 AM
I'll be getting the rulebook as I *want* the extra stuff. Only the one codex to begin with as there's no hurry or rush. If it looks good I'll pick up the others.
Oh, I am getting the rulebook and the marine index because I want the extra stuff too.  I'm just saying, it's nice to not have to buy the big book.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 25, 2017, 06:47:29 AM
As far as I'm aware there aren't free unit rules on day of release. I haven't heard that from any Community post or internally. That doesn't mean that it won't happen of course, but don't count on it.
If datasheets appear as downloads, yeah they won't have Match play points attached. But that shouldn't be a big deal. Match Play is for for competetive gaming; if you're not in a tournament, you don't require them.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 25, 2017, 07:12:20 AM
Fenris, I'm not sure why you'd expect Space Marines not to be included in the boxed set.  They are, by far, GW's highest selling army, so it would make no commercial sense at all for them not to put Space Marines in the starter set.

Regarding data sheets, I hope that GW is going to follow the Age of Sigmar model and put them up for free on the web site for each unit.  I guess that it's fair enough if they don't have the points attached, as that would be  reasonable compromise.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 10:54:41 AM
Now on to missions with Orks a little way later.
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/new-warhammer-40000-missions/ (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/new-warhammer-40000-missions/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 25, 2017, 11:20:01 AM
Gotta say, the Orks sound like they're going to be good this edition.

I like the missions. Alternating deployment takes me back to 4th Edition when, incidentally, deployment took a long time. Not as long, mind you, as all the stupid pregame rolling we have to do now, but still a long time.

I still think the 5th Ed (everybody on one side deploys, then everybody on the other side, first deployer goes first) was the most elegant and balanced version. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 25, 2017, 11:41:09 AM
I do wish that they would get rid of this unnecessary Eternal War and Maelstrom division of missions.  I've never understood why it was introduced in the first place and it has always seemed like a tier of complexity the game doesn't need in my opinion.  That said, since I'm planning to avoid matched play, it ought not to pose a problem for me.

I do like the wide range of missions which have returned for narrative play.  I recognise a lot of those from fourth edition.  This is a very positive move.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 25, 2017, 11:56:53 AM
Missions:
Yuck, unit by unit deployment >:( Now we can't go and fetch a snack or visit the bathroom while the other player is deploying :(
To top it we now only have 3 missions instead of 6 and not the most fun of them:
- 4 obj + slay the warlord. (the D3 for slaying the warlord will likely be a tiebreaker  >:()
- King of the hill, albeit random hill.  :'(
- Take and hold 4 obj.  :(
Shortening the game to 5 game turns instead of 6, undermines the claims about faster games. This is very sad.  :'( very missleading.

Luckily my meta will likely continue with custom scenarios. :)

As for the orks:
- 3D6 assault moves, essentially.
- I like the big choppa, and the mega nobz; getting an additional wound was expected.
I'm mostly curious about the orks movement stats though. will it be 3 or 4 inch maybe.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 25, 2017, 12:11:51 PM
I'm guessing they'll be moving 6", just like Marines.

Also, those 3 missions you mention are just for the narrative play/free play format. For matched play they have just as many as they had before, plus new deployment scenarios, to boot.

Shortening the game to 5 game turns instead of 6, undermines the claims about faster games. This is very sad.  :'( very missleading.

Yes, everyone knows that 6 turn games would go faster than 5 turn games. That's just science.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 25, 2017, 12:38:07 PM
Unit-by-unit deployment is not a big deal.  Lots of GW games have used that down the years on and off.  It's just different from recent trends.  It's no problem from my perspective.

I'm also happy that the game has been reduced to five turns.  A faster game in terms of the rules and five turns means that it may be possible to play two full games in one afternoon.  This sounds like progress to me.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2017, 01:10:52 PM
Missions:
Yuck, unit by unit deployment >:( Now we can't go and fetch a snack or visit the bathroom while the other player is deploying :(
A balanced system that was used prior to 5th.  It gives a chance for both players to deploy in a reactive manner.  Now you're not going to have an instance where the first player deploys to cover all avenues, only to have their opponent castle on one side and allowing them to focus their strength on a weak flank.

To top it we now only have 3 missions instead of 6 and not the most fun of them:
- 4 obj + slay the warlord. (the D3 for slaying the warlord will likely be a tiebreaker  >:()
- King of the hill, albeit random hill.  :'(
- Take and hold 4 obj.  :(
That was one scenario that they showed...

Shortening the game to 5 game turns instead of 6, undermines the claims about faster games. This is very sad.  :'( very missleading.
Most games these days are decided by turn 4 or 5.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 01:15:09 PM
Call me a radical yet wouldn't it be fairly easy to agree with your opponent to just add another turn if you both wanted to?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 25, 2017, 01:30:16 PM
I definitely think unit-by-unit deployment is balanced. It does take longer, though. It's a chess game before the chess game. I think it will be fun, mind you, but it's going to probably eat almost as much time as the pre-rolling does now.

And, also, nobody can walk away during deployment and get a sandwich now. You gotta be on your game the whole time. (and this has it's good points and bad points. The bad point being...no sandwich.  :-\)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2017, 01:44:13 PM
The bad point being...no sandwich.  :-\
That's it, deal broken!  I am quitting Warhammer forever!  How can one live without a sandwich?!?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 01:47:12 PM
In the near deserted wastelands of the Antipodes, we managed to bring food and more importantly booze to the table in small chilly bins. Alas, such technology has been lost since the Fire Nation invaded.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 25, 2017, 01:50:54 PM
In the near deserted wastelands of the Antipodes, we managed to bring food and more importantly booze to the table in small chilly bins. Alas, such technology has been lost since the Fire Nation invaded.

Oh suuure. Next thing you know you're gonna expect us to just "decide" to play another turn with some kind of "gentleman's agreement."

This is how,Rome fell, you know. Exact same thing.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 25, 2017, 03:18:22 PM
Turn by turn deployment is fine; used to it in AoS, and it's how it was done in 40K for years.
It's cool that there are so many missions- more options the better. Definitely happy that Maelstrom is staying. Maelstrom is probably the single greatest thing to ever be added to the game. :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Roboknee77 on May 25, 2017, 03:34:44 PM
And, also, nobody can walk away during deployment and get a sandwich now. You gotta be on your game the whole time. (and this has it's good points and bad points. The bad point being...no sandwich.  :-\)

Why have there been no sandwiches when we played, Wyddr?  Did I miss that part in the rulebook?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 03:54:48 PM
I've reached out to GW to see if they'll clarify the sandwich dilemma in an upcoming FAQ. Until we hear from them about this and possibly other bakery related issues we should probably move on.

What about those Orks, eh?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Roboknee77 on May 25, 2017, 04:19:26 PM
Dem Orks are lookin' shinier!  I really hope they let some of the more shooty Orks, like Lootas or Flash Gitz, have a slightly better BS than same old stat line for all Orks.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 25, 2017, 05:18:10 PM
I do wish that they would get rid of this unnecessary Eternal War and Maelstrom division of missions.  I've never understood why it was introduced in the first place and it has always seemed like a tier of complexity the game doesn't need in my opinion.  That said, since I'm planning to avoid matched play, it ought not to pose a problem for me.

I do like the wide range of missions which have returned for narrative play.  I recognise a lot of those from fourth edition.  This is a very positive move.

It's doesn't need to be complex at all. My LGS just decides if we want to do Maelstrom or Eternal and roll for those specifically. We usually play Maelstrom, as the tactical objectives make games much more compelling since your objective can change every turn. "Normal" Eternal war games are good if you just want a more relaxing game (They can usually be played faster as well).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 25, 2017, 05:18:32 PM
Fixed game length sucks, the games that actually made it to the roll to continue stage, were because they were close matches and it forced some hard choices to be made.

There is waaay to much control given to the player who wins the first roll. They pick, the mission, deployment type, who deploys where. I guess the unit by unit deployment is a trade off.


Any one else notice that Orks can have multiple Saves... I wonder if this is an Ork only thing or if it army wide.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: OD from TV on May 25, 2017, 05:32:18 PM
I really hope they let some of the more shooty Orks, like Lootas or Flash Gitz, have a slightly better BS than same old stat line for all Orks.
I wouldn't bet too highly on it.  It's enough of a godsend (or rather Gork/Mork-send) that there's a return of the true Mob Rule.  The Ork bog standard for ages is that they can't hit the broadside of a barn while inside of the barn, and so long as there aren't multiple nonMSU units testing to see if they're lucky enough to only take an extra D6 wounds or retreat (yeah the horror of 7th edition Ork is over!), I'm a happy camper without any bonus.

Although it is interesting to note that the Feral Ork side list from 3rd Ed Chapter Approved did have better BS boyz.  In fact 2nd Ed did have BS 3 Orks with access to Plasma and since 8th is practically 2nd all over again [heretical thoughts detected.  heretical thoughts purged.  long live GW]. Joking aside, while it'd be cool for them to get that buff, I'd rather they didn't.  Any buff that would have such dramatic difference would likely come with a price hike, and I'm hoping that won't be the case because for footslogger Orks to be a thing again, they need to be cheap as chips.

No matter what 8th is gonna bring, I know I'm going to enjoy at least a honeymoon period with it.  Sure this month I've seesawed back and forth on fears and hopes, baited breath on any scrap of info to wanting to smash the computer to bits because I don't want to know 8th even exists; but at the moment I'm hopeful and can't wait for my Orks to finally have non broken rules again err to try the new version of my horrible game addiction I've been stuck on for more than half my life.

Peace
~OD
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 25, 2017, 07:25:26 PM
@Wyddr: Why don't you tell us YOUR opinions about the 8th edition news instead of coming down on others?
I get the impression that you are not interested in playing the game wether it is 40k or chess, you just want to play mind games.

@GML & Irisado: The unit by unit deployment, is not the end of the world.
However there are several reasons not to use that mechanic. Have you considered MSU armies vs armies with very few units. The few unit armies will essentially always deploy first.

Call me a radical yet wouldn't it be fairly easy to agree with your opponent to just add another turn if you both wanted to?
Nope, not during a game in a competitive setting.
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 07:37:27 PM
Nope, not during a game in a competitive setting.
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.

the Udders of Thoth. You'd also note I did say if both parties agreed. You're not prohibited from doing so. The only issue there would be you. Adding a turn is hardly reinventing the whole game but please continue in this fashion, it is rather amusing as I'm sure others will agree.   :)

The issue with differing unit numbers for deployment between armies was taken care of as early as Space Marine. It's not a new issue and the mechanics are already well worn in. We've been here before.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 25, 2017, 08:22:09 PM
I am surprised no one has caught onto this yet...

Quote
A Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field gives nearby Ork units a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks. And by the way, you can take BOTH of these saves!
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Orks – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/25/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-orks/)

SO!

Is that an ork special thing or are we going back to Armor then inv save? (Then FNP??)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 25, 2017, 10:25:55 PM
I thought they mentioned earlier that it was either Armour Saves or Invulnerable Saves, and that you had to choose just as you do now.  What they may be saying is that the 6+ save they are referring to can be taken in addition to their armour save.  So they may be taking the FNP mechanic and returning it to save status.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 25, 2017, 10:31:26 PM
They're referencing rules added by heroes so it's more an individual added bonus. Snipe the bastard and it all changes.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 26, 2017, 12:47:36 AM
I have a feeling we are going to see more sniper units being taken to take pot shots at characters.  If the points stay the same, 140pts for 10 sniper scouts with Camo Cloaks doesn't seem like a bad idea.

I already know my LGS is increasing the points value of our game nights from 1850 to 2000pts, so I may do something I have never done before - buy scout models.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: volatilegaz on May 26, 2017, 04:08:03 AM
Quote
A Painboy gives nearby Ork Infantry and Biker units a 6+ save against wounds suffered. A Big Mek with a Kustom Force Field gives nearby Ork units a 5+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks. And by the way, you can take BOTH of these saves!

This reads to me like 5+ inv followed by 6+ FNP, not armour and inv
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 26, 2017, 05:28:26 AM
Maelstrom is probably the single greatest thing to ever be added to the game. :)

I disagree.  It's an annoying and unnecessary gimmick which adds unpredictability to a game which already has sufficient unpredictability.  This is why I have a problem with it.  I like to play a game with clear and set mission objectives, not have them change at random.  I also question the logic behind Maelstrom from a narrative point of view.  The edition was a great opportunity to consign it to history and I'm disappointed that GW has decided not to do so.

It's doesn't need to be complex at all. My LGS just decides if we want to do Maelstrom or Eternal and roll for those specifically. We usually play Maelstrom, as the tactical objectives make games much more compelling since your objective can change every turn. "Normal" Eternal war games are good if you just want a more relaxing game (They can usually be played faster as well).

It's feasible to simplify it as you describe, however, I have never the liked the ever changing goal posts concept in any form of life, including 40K missions.

@GML & Irisado: The unit by unit deployment, is not the end of the world.
However there are several reasons not to use that mechanic. Have you considered MSU armies vs armies with very few units. The few unit armies will essentially always deploy first.

I still cannot see why this would be a major issue.  What are the other reasons not to use it?  You've only mentioned one.

It's a tried and tested mechanic.  It works well with Age of Sigmar and has worked well with previous editions of Fantasy and 40K.

Quote
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?

That's a bit of a distortion of what reinventing the wheel means ;).

Quote
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.

How would voluntarily agreeing to add an extra game turn radically alter game balance?

GW has taken a pragmatic option by reducing the game length in my opinion.  I'm surprised that it's proving to be such a controversial topic for some of you.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 26, 2017, 06:34:37 AM
@magenb

I agree that varied game length was fun and made for a lot of tense moments. But it was introduced to counteract the last-turn objective denial tricks that sucked so badly in 5th edition (looking at you Eldar gents). Given the new objective claiming rules, this seems to be less of a problem now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 26, 2017, 06:54:15 AM
I'm stoked about the game going down to 5 turns. I can't tell you how many times I'm sitting there PRAYING the game ends at Turn 5 just because I've been sitting around the table for 5+ hours. I personally love it. Quick and bloody games are what I want, and it means I'll travel to play new opponents.

VERY happy for Ork players. That preview was fantastic... aside from DE, the armies who needed a ray of hope, I feel got it. Tyranids and Orks needed to know their armies were being looked after. Don't get me wrong I think DE are gonna be fine, I just meant the article didn't quite shed the amount of light on how they work, that other two armies got.

Man I cannot wait for this new edition. I've already had 3 of my gaming buds who I've not talked to in almost a year reach out to me looking to line up games. I'm so excited, I really think this edition is going to be great.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 26, 2017, 07:33:52 AM
I generally think this edition looks good. One thing that concerns me, though, is that while everything seems to be getting tougher (more wounds, armor saves basically better, cover more useful), the weapons don't seem to be keep pace. Other than the ones that do multiple wounds (and there are only so many of those), it seems like it's going to be a lot harder to kill things in this edition. That's going to take some getting used to and is probably going to change our strategies by a LOT.

Like, take Sniper Rifles for instance. Granted we haven't seen the stat line, but it seems like (judging from Sniper Drones) they'll have a fixed strength. If IC get more wounds, how many damned snipers is it going to take to shoot down one Chaos Lord or Warboss or something? Seems impractical as a strategy and weird from a narrative point of view.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 26, 2017, 08:12:07 AM
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 26, 2017, 08:35:12 AM
Sure. In assault.

What happens to Guard, Tau, etc? How much does that suck for them?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 26, 2017, 10:15:11 AM
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
I think GW flat out confirmed that you can assault from Deep Strike on their Facebook page.  I remember seeing a comment where someone asked if it was allowed (referencing the Trygon rules), and the 40k Facebook page pointed out that no where in the rules was there a restriction saying they couldn't.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 26, 2017, 11:05:16 AM
More marine argle bargle
New Warhammer 40,000: Primaris Space Marines – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/26/new-warhammer-40000-primaris-space-marinesgw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 26, 2017, 11:37:36 AM
More marine argle bargle
New Warhammer 40,000: Primaris Space Marines – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/26/new-warhammer-40000-primaris-space-marinesgw-homepage-post-4/)

Assault bolters are pretty beslubbering ridiculous. And they get two of them?

So, I guess codex creep is getting an early start... ::)

Secondary question: Can models use all of their weapons? So, like, can the Gravis Captain use both his super-power fist *and* his power sword in the same turn? Does it give an extra attack (signs point to know), can he split attacks between weapons? How does that work? (we don't know, I guess, but I wonder)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 26, 2017, 02:33:48 PM
@Wydrr- While this should definitely be classified as a rumor, I saw a leaked page from the new rules on Faeit212 from a pretty big website which made it seem like assault from deepstrike and assault from reserves was certainly in play. Terminators assaulting from deepstrike is gonna be brutal, especially if they can shoot and punch first with powerfists. I'm fully expecting this game to be a bloodbath, but I dont think any one phase is gonna be king. Even those rumors aside, I also expect those IC's to be dealing out a ton of damage, including mortal wounds.
I think GW flat out confirmed that you can assault from Deep Strike on their Facebook page.  I remember seeing a comment where someone asked if it was allowed (referencing the Trygon rules), and the 40k Facebook page pointed out that no where in the rules was there a restriction saying they couldn't.

The catch is most "deep strike" mechanics have to be more than 9" away from an enemy model. Even if we're allowed to assault after a deepstrike, it will still be easy to fail your charge distance.

Post Merge: May 26, 2017, 02:36:34 PM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.

@magenb

I agree that varied game length was fun and made for a lot of tense moments. But it was introduced to counteract the last-turn objective denial tricks that sucked so badly in 5th edition (looking at you Eldar gents). Given the new objective claiming rules, this seems to be less of a problem now.

What are these new objective claiming rules? I must have missed that bit.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 26, 2017, 02:38:36 PM
Don't forget the free move you get when activated in the combat phase. Helps for those times you were just off.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 26, 2017, 02:48:29 PM
@Wydrr- Well without knowing exactly how IG/Tau will look, particularly their weapon profiles I can see where you are coming from. However I think Tau are still gonna have phenomenal shooting and should be able to wash away the layers of protective units to get direct shots on those IC's. Very hard to tell without knowing the various weapon profiles, but just with the change to AP  where you could be dropping the armor saves of models signficantly in huge swathes across the board I think you should be fine. We'l have to see though. However your concerns could valid, it could be a weakness for those armies.

@Partninja- I don't think it'll be too hard to fail those charges. Remember you get +1" to charge, so you are guaranteed at least 3" on the charge. Thats really nice!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 26, 2017, 04:09:29 PM

@GML & Irisado: The unit by unit deployment, is not the end of the world.
However there are several reasons not to use that mechanic. Have you considered MSU armies vs armies with very few units. The few unit armies will essentially always deploy first.

I still cannot see why this would be a major issue.  What are the other reasons not to use it?  You've only mentioned one.

It's a tried and tested mechanic.  It works well with Age of Sigmar and has worked well with previous editions of Fantasy and 40K.

Quote
Also why would I buy rules when I have to invent them myself anyway, why reinvent the wheel?

That's a bit of a distortion of what reinventing the wheel means ;).

Quote
Furthermore it's a matter of game balance.

How would voluntarily agreeing to add an extra game turn radically alter game balance?

GW has taken a pragmatic option by reducing the game length in my opinion.  I'm surprised that it's proving to be such a controversial topic for some of you.

I've already mentioned a couple of reasons.
1. MSU
2. Time consuming
3. Natural breaks/pauses between games
4. Game balance is questionable, I know that this was how it was played a couple of editions ago, but they could have come up with something better.
Say player 1 deploys 50% of his points(either narrative or matched), then player 2 deploys 100%, then player 1 deploys the remaining 50%. (an example just from the top of my head)


It might not be reinventing the wheel, but when they serve us rules, that I immediately see flaws in, I will be disappointed. Coming up with houserules myself or with some buddies, is still inventing.

How an extra turn would radically change the game balance?
- Well, some armies are simply not as durable as others.
- One army may have a lot of more victory points left to score, than the other.
- Et cetera.

My issue is not with the reduced gamelength itself alone, it's because GW has come out bragging a game will be much faster now and this is their solution, instead of reducing tedious dice rolling.
To those that claim the game is mostly over long before turn 5, I feel sorry for you since you are either:
1. A victim of a poorly balanced game
2. A very good or very bad player, with bad matchups
3. Having extreme dicerolls, one way or the other.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 26, 2017, 05:06:14 PM
Some additional info was leaked regarding the shooting phase. It seems everyone gets to shoot and run with assault weapons now (at a -1BS). I suspect Eldar will get to do this at full BS.

Edit:  Removed link to copyright material.  Leaked images are cool, but we can wait until they are officially out.  Or people can find the material themselves.  --- GML
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 26, 2017, 05:32:36 PM
What are these new objective claiming rules? I must have missed that bit.

Objectives are claimed by the side with the most models within 3". This means that tiny jetbike squad or lone Wave Serpent won't cut it. It also means you can't leave only one model in range of the objective and daisy chain the rest of them away.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 26, 2017, 06:17:15 PM
Really like that change to scoring objectives. Very cool and thematic as far as the standard scoring mechanic works. I'm hoping objectives will evolve in some way.... hopefully they'll become terrain features or such even in matched play, but I like the way its looking from this preview as-is.

Would be lying if I said I wasnt a bit covetous of the running after shooting assault weapons. I would have taken nerfs across the board and retained that as a somewhat exclusive Eldar mechanic. But I'm guessing will Eldar will have the option to shoot and then run, or run and then shoot and probably at full BS. As I type I think it actually think its a nice balance now that I come to think of it... since its more of a twist on core mechanic, as opposed to pseudo-movement phase exclusive to the Eldar. Its like they are faster than the other races... but not double movement phase fast lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 26, 2017, 07:27:16 PM
Don't worry, Tau are less than thrilled that everyone now gets to fire all their weapons when they feel like it.  ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 27, 2017, 01:35:36 AM
Wow, at first I wasn't happy with the AoS style for 40k then the bits and pieces started looking better and better, now it seems like every new showing makes things more complicated not more simple. I'm gonna reserve judgement til after the release and a few games to find out the pros and cons. As for objectives, myself I never liked 6th but really enjoy the 7th ones. The reason is with all the different armies I have, no matter how weak or strong, tactics made them better. But when we just wanted a fun game, a good meat grinder was a hoot and a half.

Now if points aren't a available at first, most of my gaming group won't play, it will seem to much like when AoS dropped. Fantasy mostly disappeared around here. Now with Runewars out, GW will probably need to scramble to get better play for AoS. I REALLY don't want this to happen to 40k.

I read this forum almost every night and post when I want to add some help or constructive advice. Here is mine for tonight, please everyone let's be more patient and wait til the release and not do any nit picking until then. Most are hoping for a new shiny to play with, I for one am and seems like most of us are. Let's build it up as it comes, positive attitudes will make the convention to the new so nice. I wish I could game with each and everyone of you. I know it would be a really good time no matter what. Wow that sounds sappy but I do mean it.

So 3 weeks, gonna be a tough ride. See ya'll in the pages.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 27, 2017, 02:01:26 AM
Dread, where they learned from sigmar is that if you don't want to use points to balance a game, you can use a units power rating to reach a total.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 27, 2017, 02:03:54 AM
Assault weapons can advance and shoot is really counter intuitive , because that prevents anyone wielding them effectively from assaulting.
Except for orks, who will be rolling to hit on a 6+.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 27, 2017, 02:12:59 AM
I was just looking at GW's site. Now it reads to me that we'll have to buy a codices in order to play an army, only the rules will be free. Just my observation.

I hope your right GML. THanks for that bud. I'm getting anxious myself.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 27, 2017, 04:48:59 AM
I've already mentioned a couple of reasons.
1. MSU
2. Time consuming
3. Natural breaks/pauses between games
4. Game balance is questionable, I know that this was how it was played a couple of editions ago, but they could have come up with something better.
Say player 1 deploys 50% of his points(either narrative or matched), then player 2 deploys 100%, then player 1 deploys the remaining 50%. (an example just from the top of my head)

1. There's no way of knowing at this stage whether MSU is going to be a popular army concept for this edition.  I think, therefore, that it is far too soon to be concerned about that.  In addition, if you know that you're likely to end up finishing deploying first, you can plan for it in terms of how you deploy your units and your strategy.

2. It may take a bit longer, but in my experience of playing using that deployment method, it doesn't take that much longer.

3. I never paused while my opponent was deploying under the previous system.  Unit-by-unit adds to the tension and makes deployment more engaging for both players in my experience.

4. The alternative you've suggested seems very odd to me.  Either way, they've told us which system they're going to use, so I think that it's better to focus on what the rules are, rather than what they could have been.

Quote
It might not be reinventing the wheel, but when they serve us rules, that I immediately see flaws in, I will be disappointed. Coming up with houserules myself or with some buddies, is still inventing.

You must have been disappointed with every edition of 40K in that case, because each one has had immediate flaws with some aspect of the rules ;).  Thus far, I see fewer issues with this set of rules than many of the others that have been produced for 40K.

A house rule to extend the game by a turn is not inventing a rule.  Inventing a rule would be devising a rule which is new.  All you would be doing by extending the game by a turn is merely modifying one of the rules.

Quote
How an extra turn would radically change the game balance?
- Well, some armies are simply not as durable as others.
- One army may have a lot of more victory points left to score, than the other.
- Et cetera.

None of that strikes me as radically changing the balance of the game.  Also, all of these issues could apply equally to a six turn game.  Etcetera is a word used by some of my students when they've run out of arguments to make in their essays, but want to seem as though they haven't, so that doesn't convince me that there are a lot of arguments to make here ;).

Quote
My issue is not with the reduced gamelength itself alone, it's because GW has come out bragging a game will be much faster now and this is their solution, instead of reducing tedious dice rolling.
To those that claim the game is mostly over long before turn 5, I feel sorry for you since you are either:
1. A victim of a poorly balanced game
2. A very good or very bad player, with bad matchups
3. Having extreme dicerolls, one way or the other.

How do you know that it's their solution?  Where has GW said that the game will be faster because it has been reduced by a turn?  I agree that there is still too much dice rolling, but there has been a reduction in some dice rolling compared to seventh edition, so at least they are trying in some respects.

As for the last part of this comment, you're generalising without having the evidence to draw such a conclusion.  You'd need a massive amount of date from games taking place in all sorts of different environments to be able to draw this conclusion.  Most games of 40K that I've played have never gone beyond five turns because of time constraints or because the victory conditions were met by one side or the other.  That does not mean that what you're saying cannot happen, but it's impossible to conclude that it's the only set of conditions which results in a five turn game.

I think, therefore, that GW is making progress with eighth edition.  There are still elements that I am concerned about, but, on the whole, the changes feel positive, and I do feel as though that if there are any issues, deployment and game length are not among them.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Stormbane on May 27, 2017, 08:01:53 AM
Just thought I would let you know what I picked up at my GW today.

The manager had a small selection of the new minis available. Apparently GW staff in some stores were being a bit slow painting new boxed sets; as such, they did a tabletop painting tutorial for the managers so that they could get them out quickly and looking good.

The Primaris is only a smudge smaller than a Custodes. The detail is good, with easy areas for edge highlighting. The painted mini looked really nice using only the basic techniques of a basecoat, recess wash and edge highlight.

The Deathguard were the highlight for me though. The Lord of Contagion had been painted with 6 colours and given a wash; that was it...and it looked freaking fantastic. There will be a new Death Guard Green spray and (I guess) base released. The model had been based using the spray, then leadbelcher for the chainmail and weapons. Details were added with Gorthor Brown, Ushabti Bone, Screamer Pink and a Grey. Everything was then washed with Agrax Earthshade. There is such a good level of detail that it picks out the recesses wonderfully. I can't say too much about how good such a simple recipe gave.

I also saw a standard Plague Marine that had been taken to a slightly higher level of detail (Just an edge highlight on a few bits). Again, freaking fantastic.

The Poxwalker was nice. I can see people producing fantastic results with those guys.

The key thing though, was that all the minis I talked about were painted in under 3 hours in total. I think people will be knocking out entire painted forces in a matter of hours or days...especially the Death Guard, with the new Spray. It looks to be a superb colour.

So, IMHO, GW have knocked it out of the park with the miniature quality on this set. People raved about Dark Vengeance (Specifically the Chosen models)...well this set makes DV look like a set of RTB01 Marines in comparison.

Also, the Manager couldn't say enough nice things about the set of Objective Markers...and he isn't the type to overhype things unnecessarily.

So that's what I learnt today. I hope it is in some way helpful.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 27, 2017, 08:39:29 AM
Some more leaks of the core rules pages. More detachment options. It seems most people will be playing games of 4 or 6 command points. 3 just for being battle forged and another +1 or +3 depending on FOC needs.

It appears all cover is just +1 to armor save unless there is another page that further defines varied types of cover. Not sure I like this. Seems over powered for marines, and really bad for things with only a 6+ save.

Links to scanned material can't be posted I'm afraid because of the rules (http://www.40konline.com/index.php?action=rules) on copyright, so I've removed the link - Iris.

Edit- My bad on the link. I assumed since these pages will be free anway it would be fine.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Stormbane on May 27, 2017, 12:16:28 PM
As it's UK Gamesday, they're doing a live blog over on the community site:

Warhammer Fest Live Blog – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/27/warhammer-fest-live-blog/)

Particularly interesting to 40k fans is the update at 5:00pm. There is a new Marine Dreadnought being released, I guess with a Primaris inside. Immediately below that is a teaser for Nurgle - and I think from the scale of the miniature in the video, it is in all likelihood the expected release of Mortarion.

Looks as they're got some really interesting things in the pipeline across all their ranges.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 27, 2017, 01:49:23 PM
Edit- My bad on the link. I assumed since these pages will be free anway it would be fine.

They're not out yet. When they are out, it still wouldn't be cricket to post to a scan of the pages. A link to the actual GW rule location would be fine and/or a page from the book as some of us will have. This is especially important for the book only content as that won't be otherwise available and beslubber'em if they think they're getting that for free.  ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 27, 2017, 03:52:04 PM
Don't worry, Tau are less than thrilled that everyone now gets to fire all their weapons when they feel like it.  ;)

@Grimsqueaker- lol... I missed your post yesterday. True, true. I didn't even think of that. But I agree whole heartedly.  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 27, 2017, 04:05:58 PM
Still, that's half the fun. Stuff changes, we change with it or jog on to something else. I'm still looking forward to the new release to see what we can do with it.  :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on May 27, 2017, 04:21:04 PM
So I got a quick peak today inside the Xenos 1 index...

Without giving too much away, I will say this:

Points for units are listed in the back of it.

Psychic powers are a d3 table.

Battle focus is very suitable and powerful

Combat drugs and Power from Pain seems good too - nothing broken or useless in either.

Poison is much the same, although now it has the same chance to hurt vehicles that a flashlight would get

The majority of the index was rules, and not a whole lot of fluff.

I am very, very excited for this. Most of what I glanced at looked very balanced.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 27, 2017, 04:49:37 PM
Thank you for the summary. Sounds very interesting and hopeful for the other books.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 27, 2017, 05:26:00 PM
Oh my, that dread looks sweet. I wasn't looking for new models but wow. I'll get one for my Deathwing, if that's possible.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 27, 2017, 08:14:51 PM
Just learned/realized that the Smite psychic power has to target the *closest* unit. Man, psychic power just keeps looking worse.

EDIT: Some other things of note:

-No more movement restrictions for Difficult Terrain, apparently? Hmmmm...don't know how I feel about that.

-Perils is going to *suck,* unless psykers get a major wound boost. I can see my Thousand Sons flaming out right and left. If the powers aren't worth it, I think the Ksons look like they're going back on the shelf. Again. 

-The formations look fairly staid. You get extra slots in one or another battlefield role in exchange for Command Points, which look modestly useful. Meh.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 28, 2017, 05:43:52 PM
Anyone else notice the wording for Transports in the leaked rules?
soo, disembark is now within 3 inches of the transport... not the access point... and you can still "move"... so a Wave S/Falcon is 6-7 inches long, so 3 more in front of that, plus move, plus charge... I think that one needs a FAQ straight out of the gate.

Might have to wait for the full DS rules, but the current wording would mean you can't jump out of a DS transport until the next turn as the transport has technically already moved.


Mortal wounds bypasses invul saves too ouch.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 28, 2017, 06:02:04 PM
Any else notice the wording for Transports in the leaked rules?
soo, disembark is not within 3 inches of the transport... not the access point... and you can still "move"... so a Wave S is 6-7 inches long, so 3 more in front of that, plus move, plus charge... I think that one needs a FAQ straight out of the gate.

Might have to wait for the full DS rules, but the current wording would mean you can't jump out of a DS transport until the next turn as the transport has technically already moved.


Mortal wounds bypasses invul saves too ouch.

There might be another transport section that further defines this. Or vehicles get free abstract spins on the spot now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 28, 2017, 06:48:33 PM
There might be another transport section that further defines this.

Yeah I hope so. There just seems to be free moves all over the shop right now (did you see the character freebie move), kind of looks like they have sped up the game by making everything move stupidly fast.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 29, 2017, 07:51:41 AM
Well, the length of the transport doesn't seem to be the issue, as you still can't swing the transport around to get more movement, right? (I mean, I presume)

It's still a 3" bonus in movement, but that is minus the movement provided by the transport, which now can't move before you disembark. It's really only a 3" bump.

Edit: Space Marine preview up. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/29/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines/)

It seems like Centurions will be pretty good (though not necessarily the grav variety). Happy to hear the pred gets some love. Roboute sounds stupid good.

All good things for the SMurfs. Hardly a surprise.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 29, 2017, 02:32:18 PM
Pretty much as expected. Some definite multi-wound killers in there as we'd predicted. Even some of the high toughness wound mountains are going to feel the pain quite quickly.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 29, 2017, 04:45:23 PM
Well, the length of the transport doesn't seem to be the issue, as you still can't swing the transport around to get more movement, right? (I mean, I presume)

It's still a 3" bonus in movement, but that is minus the movement provided by the transport, which now can't move before you disembark. It's really only a 3" bump.

Edit: Space Marine preview up. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/29/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-space-marines/)

It seems like Centurions will be pretty good (though not necessarily the grav variety). Happy to hear the pred gets some love. Roboute sounds stupid good.

All good things for the SMurfs. Hardly a surprise.

The real point of interest isn't a boost in movement so much as vehicles with only a single access point (Eldar and Tau for example) essentially disembark as if they were open topped now. Again, this is assuming there aren't further section which detail more about vehicles/transports/access points.

Further leaks have surfaced showing the match play points for chaos marines. Just a big list as I thought. Most things are about the same costs, with vehicles being broadly more expensive. A lot of very odd point costs too (as in, they're nit even numbers).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 29, 2017, 05:58:43 PM
All good things for the SMurfs. Hardly a surprise.

I just hope all the new units were play tested as well, SM are looking really rosie right now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 29, 2017, 07:33:56 PM
All good things for the SMurfs. Hardly a surprise.

I just hope all the new units were play tested as well, SM are looking really rosie right now.

One of the risks of doing all your playtesting with tourney players is that you're probably going to see those players' favorite armies get the best treatment. I'd expect Eldar and Marines to do quite well. I'm guessing others may not be so lucky.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on May 29, 2017, 10:36:20 PM
One of the risks of doing all your playtesting with tourney players is that you're probably going to see those players' favorite armies get the best treatment. I'd expect Eldar and Marines to do quite well. I'm guessing others may not be so lucky.
On the contrary, I would expect Eldar and Marines to be brought down in power level.  I have said this many times over the years, but I am fortunate to having the gaming community I do because some of the top players in Canada are regulars here.  These are guys that have gone down and won major tournaments in North America like the Adepticon Team Tournament.  They have abandoned playing armies like Eldar, Tau, and Marines because it is too easy for them to win.  They don't even think about the game any more and they know exactly how to win.  It just got worse with Ynarri.  Hell, one guy got fed up with it that he brought out a tooled Tyranid list so he would have a challenge at that level of competition.

So when highly competitive players are abandoning the top tier armies because of how easy it is for them to win, I can easily see tournament organizers doing what they can with the play testing to ensure all factions are on the same power level.

If you want proof of the toning down, just look at what they did to grav.  It took a major hit against high toughness / low save units; the units that were the reason this weapon type was spammed so much.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 30, 2017, 07:11:06 AM
Yeah if you guys have followed Reece and Frankie... they pretty much despise Eldar as they stand. Despite Reece actually having a extremely cool Eldar footdar army. I know they aren't the only guys playtesting, but it seems to me they had a pretty significant influence.

Plus the guys from Adepticon are well known for their preference for lore based play... so much so that all their narrative and fun events have take precedence over pretty much everything else.

Following Signals from the Frontline, and the whole ITC very closely... I can tell you the guys organizing it have said time, and time again... that broken, OP'd armies HURT tournament play. They say the more casual, the more inclusive, the more people show up and participate. The ITC activley tried to tone down a lot of the crap from 7th ed. which is why its been so phenomenally successful.

If you go and look through the old FAQ, you'll see they downgraded 2++ re-rollables to a 4++, nerfed Destroyer weapons (no remove from play), nerfed invisibility in combat and countless other changes to make the game more balanced.

I remember when the new Eldar book dropped they proposed to the voters restricting scatter lasers to 1 scatter laser for every 3 bikes...

Regardless, these guys know a more balanced game is better for business. Check out their podcast or check the ITC FAQ and its right there. The Adepticon guys and Nova are all ITC so they are all on the same page. Thats just one of the reasons I've been so encouraged about the new edition
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 30, 2017, 08:03:46 AM
Well, I hope you guys are right. From what I've seen so far, it looks like things are more balanced, but certain faves are getting the usual preferential treatment.

In my own tourney experience (granted, not as impressive), every tourney organizer has strong opinions about what would balance the game, but most of it boils down to just changing who has the edge.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 30, 2017, 08:23:46 AM
@Wydrr- I hear you man. The process of how the ITC was formulated was encouraging though... from the standpoint of how much data was gone over and just how in-depth game+army mechanics were scrutinized by the guys running the ITC, and even how people voted. Before any item even made it to the FAQ thousands of people voted to see what issues were even going to be ruled on. After that people voted for a variety of changes (or voted for no changes to be made). If you go back and watch some of those videos it was CRAZY how in-depth it was. Every book from GW + FW, every unit was scruitized heavily.

I remember they even proposed giving Chaos the Fearless USR (which got voted down), just to get them on the table. People voted to give Orks a unique Stompa from one of the Imperial Armor books that was hundreds of points cheaper than the standard Stompa, just to get Orks on the tables.

I say all that, just to lend encouragement to people who don't know about this group of playtesters. They are solid dudes with incredible knowledge of the game and how it plays from casual to hyper competitive.

I myself don't play in tournaments, but I used their FAQ to help before GW produced their own and I was very satisfied with how it helped.

I'm sure their will be issues with this edition, like their are in every edition, but I feel that from what we've seen thus far, and the guys involved in shaping the game, the game is gonna be really solid and perhaps more balanced than we've seen any previous edition.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 30, 2017, 01:13:56 PM
Army selection with Dark Eldar army example.
New Warhammer 40,000: Choosing Your Army – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/30/new-warhammer-40000-choosing-your-army-may30gw-homepage-post-4/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 30, 2017, 02:09:11 PM
Really interesting... Look how cheap those Warriors are even with all that kit! You know one thing I didn't realize when recording the other day.... Kabalites are gonna be able to haul around the Splintercannons and Dark Lances and fire them on the move even if they don't become assault weapons. Thats really handy on more resilient Raiders. Damn I'm getting excited

That Void Raven is still really expensive...  I'm praying its more effective. My brother got me one for my birthday and its one of my favorite models and I'm really happy with how I painted it. I want it to be a beast... Can't wait to see its stats.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 30, 2017, 03:25:25 PM
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 30, 2017, 03:31:05 PM
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

Yeah, I'm largely agreeing with Irisado. I'll have to try both ways out, but the layout of the matched play army lists so far seems needlessly fiddly (so, I gotta add in all the basic wargear the guys have...flip flip...then I need to see who has access to what options...flip flip...now I've got to add a bunch of prime numbers together...). I might be wrong on that, granted, but we'll see.
 
Trying to figure out how many power levels equates to how many points should be interesting. I wonder how comparable it will all be.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: murgel on May 30, 2017, 03:55:27 PM
I agree here as well.
Sure there are programs that will do the calc for you etc.
But honestly the power levels and the variability they offer make them most appealing. Especially for the campaign games most common with my friends.
It simply is great to just pick power and have the options included so you can modify the army to fit the mission and not recalculate it.
Makes more flexible gaming possible.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 30, 2017, 04:22:53 PM
My group abandoned tournaments and power gaming lists a while ago. While we don't exactly play super fluffy lists, we're a good mixture of the two. We use less than standard units, because they're fun, but still play objectively for a good game. So 50% fluff/fun, 50% still trying to win.

That said, I still see the power level as really stupid and easily abused. A lot of the very powerful weapon swaps, at no point costs, makes them SUPER powerful and it doesn't even change their power rating. A made up example would be Wraith guard swapping their cannons for scythes - while we don't know exactly how either of these weapons work yet, in current terms scythes are WAY more powerful for quite a bit extra points. With just a power level, they are the same cost of unit...

Power level is simply for quickly throwing together a game - but is not at all balanced IMO


On another note - there are a lot of data sheet leaks out:

It seems infantry units are over all cheaper, while vehicles have gone up in points. I like this. Your army should end up about the same if you used mixed unit types
 

There are still typos even with "Trust us we're the new GW". The Sanguinary Priest didn't have a chalice or narc listed as his base kit, or that he could take them. The Biker priest, had both of these options listed...whomp whomp. Hopefully these were pictures of the production index books.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 30, 2017, 05:55:50 PM
Really interesting... Look how cheap those Warriors are even with all that kit! You know one thing I didn't realize when recording the other day.... Kabalites are gonna be able to haul around the Splintercannons and Dark Lances and fire them on the move even if they don't become assault weapons. Thats really handy on more resilient Raiders. Damn I'm getting excited

So KB Warriors got a point drop and can now take multiple Heavy weapons in a small unit with multiple special weapons...

Guess that should let DE finally spam anti-tank weapons at least, but if 1 heavy weapon for every 4 models is the thing, then you could get 3 lots of splinter cannon shots from a single venom at range, nasty anti-infantry unit right there.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on May 31, 2017, 01:09:44 AM
So kinda going backwards a bit, but what do ya'll think the power points games will be, 100, 500, 1000 power points? Today I got to see the GK stuff and want to be prepared for opening night. What should that night be?

By the way, I have actually become excited about everything I've read up to this point, it seems to be the streamline for games 40k has needed. I usually tell people not to wish their life away but, well, I can't wait. I pre preordered the craftworld book today. Wwhew!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on May 31, 2017, 03:11:09 AM
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

Think I'll be building armies as both power points and regular style.
I kinda want to play Open, with Power Points, but using Match Play missions and strategy cards etc... :D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr Draken on May 31, 2017, 04:20:01 AM
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

Think I'll be building armies as both power points and regular style.
I kinda want to play Open, with Power Points, but using Match Play missions and strategy cards etc... :D

They will be available, for purchase in the ebooks. I like the power level option as well. I hope other than tourneys that will be the go to for list building in my group.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on May 31, 2017, 05:26:07 AM
I will only be playing matched play, unless I play with kids or newbies, then the power points seems like a good way to introduce new people to the game.

Those odd points I see complains about is a good sign that, GW for once, actually applied some kind of calculations to it.
If you like even numbers, just take units of even numbers like 5 or 10 models and you will have no trouble getting a 2K point army on the nose.

Why is calculations good you may wonder, well math is a science that is exact, there is no wiggleroom, which makes it a perfect tool for balance.
In addition, it will help when rectifying balance flaws. For example GW realized transports got overcosted, well just reduce the points they used for determine how much each seat in the buss cost.

Also if or when someone cracks that algorithm (or GW reveals it), we can start creating our own units, like in one the old tyranid codex´.

Edit:
I just watched a readalong on youtube, the 280 page rulebook is just filled to the brim with fluff, and then som narrative advanced mission rules. Biggest thing though:
Games of 1K-2K points should use the 6x4 table size, armies below 1K use 4x4 and armies above 2K use 8x4 or bigger. So Great, finally we have an estimate. ;)

Normal(1K-2K) games also has a maximum of three detachments.
This is good news :D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 31, 2017, 07:02:33 AM
Man the hype is reaching apocalyptic levels. After glancing through some of the leaks... I'm very impressed.

One thing has really hit me... Deepstrike is an ULTRA awesome ability. With the changes to assault and shooting, units like Scourge can now drop in with their lances... without scattering presumambly and do absolute work.

Everything seems just so much more reliable and efficient. It has to be tested in actual games and with full rules in hand... but there was so much randomization in the game before, you had to avoid certain units just for a measure of certainty.

I see tons of units coming back into prominence... especially chaff units, tarpits etc. I know screening units are a huge deal in AoS... thus I see conscripts, Wyches, Storm Guardians etc having a pretty important role. Especially when you have Genestealers assaulting out of reserve (and absolutley shredding face) Termies assaulting out of deepstrike (presumambly). Man I cannot be more excited.

I'm super glad I've got a nice balanced collection and didn't just cheese out with jetbike spam this last edition. The hype tho....
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on May 31, 2017, 07:56:49 AM
I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

My concern is that you will be proved to be correct.  If this does turn out to be the case and the only way to access rules for armies and units is to pay for them, I'm going to continue not to play.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 31, 2017, 01:08:27 PM
Necrons for today. Also starter box contents and some marine faffle fluff.
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Necrons – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/31/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-necrons/)

Reanimation Protocols is certainly a thing now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 31, 2017, 01:39:39 PM
Reanimation Protocols is certainly a thing now.

 :o

Yeah...that's...ummm...wow.

Gives you a real incentive to wipe the whole unit out now, doesn't it?

Also, the Portal of Exile seems nasty. However, did we notice the Monolith has a BS reduction? Do we think that might transfer across the army?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: MagicJuggler on May 31, 2017, 02:46:25 PM
From both what's floating on the Internet as well as the stuff teased on warhammer-community, I feel like I'm going to stick with 7th/7.5 for the time being.

Losing access to all Traitor Legion rules and flavor options when that book was only out for 6 months is a pretty nasty slap on the face. Alas.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 31, 2017, 03:41:26 PM
I would expect to see all the Legions available on launch, actually. The keywords are rigged that way already and they've got the whole Index Hereticus (or whatever it's called) to give at least basic rules to everybody.

That said, Horus Heresy has confirmed it's keeping the 7th edition ruleset (more or less), so there's always that option.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on May 31, 2017, 03:44:41 PM
Yeah their are keywords for each of the Traitor Legion, with unique buffs handed out by their associated characters, some of which are insane like with Kharn. They will also get command point buffs, which can be army specific.

Even the Craftworlds are getting unique keywords, like Iyanden, Alaitoc, etc.

All that meaning, Traitor legions buffs haven't gone away, they just work differently and are only enhanced if you assemble your army with all single keywords, like World Eaters. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 31, 2017, 04:34:14 PM
I'm liking the changes to Necrons. I like the new reanimation protocols as well. I'm glad they kept their toughness, but rely on crypteks to boost it (instead of just getting it army wide).

The BS drop on the Monolith stings a bit, but at least it can move and fire all five weapons now...Plus, we don't know the stats on the P-whip yet do we?

With how good the Gauss weapons are now, I wouldn't be surprised if at least Warriors dropped down a point in BS. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 31, 2017, 04:36:04 PM
Particle Whip is right there on the Mono's datasheet.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 31, 2017, 05:56:50 PM
Well that's a derp moment...

Hmm, I wish the whip was a bit more than D6 given the lower BS.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 31, 2017, 06:14:23 PM
Well that's a derp moment...

Hmm, I wish the whip was a bit more than D6 given the lower BS.

Take heart that the P-whip, as of this moment, is the best large blast weapon we've seen so far that isn't mounted on an Imperial Knight.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 31, 2017, 07:49:42 PM
Ok. The way they did this point system is super inefficient. A lot of units don't have any extra war gear options, but their base kit is not reflected in their point costs. That is stupid. Why do I need to add a character's unique weapon to his base point cost? Why do I need to now make my own spread sheet so that it's actually organized?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on May 31, 2017, 07:58:53 PM
I think a lot of it depends on how they lay it all out. From what I've seen since I first saw they were doing this (so, in other words, "with the latest intelligence") it seems as if all the wargear will be on the same page as the unit costs, so that decreases the flippage a lot, assuming you remember what options are available to what units.

I do agree it seems a little silly to ask a Vindicator to buy a Demolisher Cannon, but whatever. You can't have everything.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 31, 2017, 08:34:38 PM
kind of hope Necron's point costs went up... The blurb says all crypteks improve the RP rolls, I hope there is some fine print to prevent stacking those.

Heavy Destroyers, I hope they are 4+ to hit base with re-roll for 1's. A 3+ base with a boost from the Lord to 2+ with re-roll of 1's would be crazy.

There are a couple of hints at some special rules there, "advance" and "charge", kind of wonder if warriors can't charge or run by default and if that is the hit they take for getting entire game length RP rolls.



Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on May 31, 2017, 08:40:53 PM
I think a lot of it depends on how they lay it all out. From what I've seen since I first saw they were doing this (so, in other words, "with the latest intelligence") it seems as if all the wargear will be on the same page as the unit costs, so that decreases the flippage a lot, assuming you remember what options are available to what units.

I do agree it seems a little silly to ask a Vindicator to buy a Demolisher Cannon, but whatever. You can't have everything.

It's not about having everything. It makes no real sense to do it this way. Banshees only have swords and pistols. Why do I need to flip to another page to add up point costs? That's wholly inefficient and needless.

Grrr, rant, mumble lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on May 31, 2017, 08:53:53 PM
Yet, if you're given a base cost and then components costs for add ons that's the beginning of a built your own system like how VDR used to be so terrible at doing.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on May 31, 2017, 09:04:16 PM

Edit:
I just watched a readalong on youtube, the 280 page rulebook is just filled to the brim with fluff, and then som narrative advanced mission rules.

Is it new fluff Gathering storm style or a rehash with a summary of significant battles on a time line like most of the rule book have been. Trying to get an idea if its worth the $$ instead of just downloading the rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Katamari Damacy on June 1, 2017, 02:53:06 AM
Hmm, I wish the whip was a bit more than D6 given the lower BS.

The Whip is Heavy 6 though, not D6  ;D

So far things are looking good for Necrons imho. I might actually get back to this army, but GW would have to replace the horrible Warrior Kits first.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: MagicJuggler on June 1, 2017, 09:12:51 AM
More annoying in my book is the fact that GW moved away from models/equipment point costs being multiples of 5 in full force. While with 5th-7th it was easy to adjust a list on the fly ("swap 2 Meltabombs for 2 Dozer Blades"), chances are you're going to see a lot more lists that are over or under by 3 or so points and that's just awkward if you ask me.

The cynic in me wants to believe that this was intentional, to attempt to push Narrative Play over other systems, but hey.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 1, 2017, 09:37:18 AM
More annoying in my book is the fact that GW moved away from models/equipment point costs being multiples of 5 in full force. While with 5th-7th it was easy to adjust a list on the fly ("swap 2 Meltabombs for 2 Dozer Blades"), chances are you're going to see a lot more lists that are over or under by 3 or so points and that's just awkward if you ask me.

I agree with this. Always annoying to pay for 31 point models or whatever and try and hit an even point limit. 

Quote
The cynic in me wants to believe that this was intentional, to attempt to push Narrative Play over other systems, but hey.

I think, to some extent, this whole plan was/is an attempt to balance out point values across factions to try and create a more balanced game. We'll see if it works (I'm skeptical), but I'm guessing that was their goal.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 1, 2017, 09:27:22 PM
Well, I played my first two games of 8th edition at the store today, as they have preview copies of the books for use.

The mechanics are really straightforward, but plays the same as 7th. It is a bit weird charging with vehicles, but I really like the tactical uses of that.

We played 1000pts using Patrol Detachments, so no command points.

Building an army was really easy, all the points for all units and wargear was on one page, so no need to flip through pages.

I brought my Harlequins, and my opponent ran Necrons. One thing we found, is that 1000pts doesn't fit as much as it did under 7th. Also, my Harlequins are way more durable. Their Inv. save is one point better, and the Shadowseer gives a great defensive buff to nearby units.

Moving and shooting is pretty much the same as in 7th, but because you can always move and shoot, the game is a lot more dynamic.

Assault was a big deal. I guess less so for our game, as my speedy Harlequins always got to charge first, but when he was able to charge me, him going first was a big deal. Necrons are scary in combat now that they all hit on 3's.

I didn't think about it before playing, but inv. saves are amazing now. The ability to ignore AP is crazy good. Necrons shooting has surprisingly good AP, even on basic guns, and my whole army ignored that. However, his wraiths punished me as they did the same thing.

Looking forward to playing more games, but I really enjoy it. I'm a huge Age of Sigmar fan, and 8th edition 40k is very different from that game.

Looking forward to my pre-orders this weekend.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 1, 2017, 10:07:38 PM
Thanks for the info killersquid, that makes me feel better. I'm not a fan of AoS so you'very helped calm me. Now, who won?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 1, 2017, 10:33:37 PM
Thanks for the info killersquid, that makes me feel better. I'm not a fan of AoS so you'very helped calm me. Now, who won?

I won both games. Played eternal war mission, and then a maelstrom mission.

He was stuck in the mindset that necrons shouldn't charge, but charging would have really helped him. Lots of other mistakes on his part, but he'll get better with more games.

Gonna try my iron warriors next game. I'm excited to try out the new obliterator rules.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 2, 2017, 12:21:08 AM
So, looking at the leaks, jetbikes aren't troops anymore, pooh. Oh well, now it looks like the DE are back to a playable spot, Harlis look better and necrons seem to still have a good army build. As KS said, what I've read, it kinda just looks a lot like 7th play. I will say it sure is a lot to take in, overwhelming. There is smoke coming out of my ears from the gears grinding, gonna take awhile to soak in but sounds very fun down the road after absorption sets in.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 2, 2017, 05:38:21 AM
We played 1000pts using Patrol Detachments, so no command points.

It was my understanding from reading that section of the rules, that just being battle forged gave you 3 command points. The patrol detachment just doesn't offer further command points.

One thing I haven't seen is a ruling on unit types. Do bikes or jetpacks for example get to fire heavy weapons on the move without a reduced BS? The same goes for vehicles. I have a feeling a lot of things aren't going to be as accurate on the move, and why the Shuriken Cannon for Eldar, as an example, has been moved to an assault weapon.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Fenris on June 2, 2017, 06:22:52 AM
@Partninja: Shuriken cannon has been an assault weapon for eldar for several editions now.

Some vehicle upgrades allows them to not get a penalty when shooting heavy weapons. Bikes still suffers from it AFAIK, so those shurican bikes does not seem bad at all do they? ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 07:09:44 AM
We played 1000pts using Patrol Detachments, so no command points.

It was my understanding from reading that section of the rules, that just being battle forged gave you 3 command points. The patrol detachment just doesn't offer further command points.

One thing I haven't seen is a ruling on unit types. Do bikes or jetpacks for example get to fire heavy weapons on the move without a reduced BS? The same goes for vehicles. I have a feeling a lot of things aren't going to be as accurate on the move, and why the Shuriken Cannon for Eldar, as an example, has been moved to an assault weapon.

Well amphetamine parrot, we missed that then. Probably for the best to leave out command points when learning.

If units don't suffer the -1 to move and shoot, it'll be on their data sheet. The core rules are just game mechanics. Anything special about units and types is on their data sheet.

Shuirken cannons have always been assault weapons though.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 2, 2017, 07:59:49 AM
Wow, guess I never payed attention to that haha. Didn't matter before though as everything that could take one, even if it was heavy, could move and fire it anyway without a problem.

Sucks for Guardians, as their platform no longer gives them the ability to move and fire heavies (at least at full BS). It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me..
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 09:04:18 AM
Sucks for Guardians, as their platform no longer gives them the ability to move and fire heavies (at least at full BS). It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me..

Good! I've been scratching my head for efficient ways to kill Wave Serpents for days now and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer beyond "shoot them with all of the things."

Killersquid: Did you guys play with any Large Models (vehicles, monsters, etc.)? One of the things I'm most curious about is how armies are able to cope with 6-12 wound, T6+ beasties with space marine armor. I keep running the numbers, and everything besides Lascannons seem to suck at taking out such targets.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 09:36:16 AM
Sucks for Guardians, as their platform no longer gives them the ability to move and fire heavies (at least at full BS). It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me..

Good! I've been scratching my head for efficient ways to kill Wave Serpents for days now and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer beyond "shoot them with all of the things."

Killersquid: Did you guys play with any Large Models (vehicles, monsters, etc.)? One of the things I'm most curious about is how armies are able to cope with 6-12 wound, T6+ beasties with space marine armor. I keep running the numbers, and everything besides Lascannons seem to suck at taking out such targets.

These were our lists

Harlequins

Troupe master
Shadowseer
3 squads of 5 troupes
Starweaver
Solitaire
Squad of 3 skyweavers

Necrons

Special character cyptek with the man legs (forget his name)
10 man warrior squad
Squad of immortals
6 wraiths
6 tomb blades
Ghost arch

The ghost arc is tough, but my Harlequins chewed through it pretty quick. I had a lot of weapons with ap which reduced it's save and Harlequins kiss do d3 damage. I in my second game I killed it in two turns, but it took a bit of effort.

It was neat how it got weaker as it took wounds. Slower, amphetamine parrot with a worse ballistic skill.

My star weaver is a bit tougher too. Took probably double the firepower to kill it, but it died both games.

Stats removed for reasons previously discussed - Iris.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 2, 2017, 10:18:59 AM
Sucks for Guardians, as their platform no longer gives them the ability to move and fire heavies (at least at full BS). It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me..

Good! I've been scratching my head for efficient ways to kill Wave Serpents for days now and still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer beyond "shoot them with all of the things."

Killersquid: Did you guys play with any Large Models (vehicles, monsters, etc.)? One of the things I'm most curious about is how armies are able to cope with 6-12 wound, T6+ beasties with space marine armor. I keep running the numbers, and everything besides Lascannons seem to suck at taking out such targets.

What do Guardian "nerfs" have to do with killed Serpents exactly? Honestly curious. Or was that just a separate thought?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 10:27:19 AM
Oh, sorry--the quote didn't parse quite the way I meant it to. I was mostly referring to the last bit:

Quote
It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me.

If you don't want to bring them, that's quite all right by me.  ;D

Killersquid

Hmmm...a unit of dudes all doing D3 wounds takes 2 turns to kill a transport. That's...not encouraging.

Worried on how dangerous this is going to make mechanized lists, is all. I kinds foresee a return to the bad old days of 5th Edition and the Ridiculously Tough Rhino.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 11:10:47 AM
I had only 5 man squads, and was wounding on 5's, so I wasn't really using tools meant to kill vehicles.


The vehicle was a huge chunk of points too. Pretty much all vehicles in the game went up 30-50% in points. Landraiders are nearly 400pts now.

Drop pods tripled in price, and rhinos doubled in cost. So vehicles are more durable for sure, but they are wayyy more expensive.

Also, after wounding the ghost arch, it was moving at under half speed and it's bs dropped by 2 points, so it's not like it was fully effective the whole time.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 11:15:39 AM
Thousand Sons Preview Up (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/02/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-thousand-sons/)

My short reaction is this: Magnus! (everybody else sucks)

Like, I think the All is Dust rule is cool and fluffy, but it isn't going to save the hyper-slow rubrics from fiery death, especially not now that their invul save took a hit.

The Aspiring Sorcerer's ability is an utter joke (talked about this already).

I think to some extent I'm going to need to see how much everything costs to field, but everything I've seen so far implies that the Ksons still cannot kill vehicles and psychic power continues to be pretty terrible. In this past edition, it was hyper complex and unreliable, but at least it did actual work when it decided to function. Now? Both modestly unreliable and offensively weak. Having trouble seeing myself build an army where psychic power is key to success.

EDIT: All that said, if Tzaangors get magically better and I can field more guys, you might seem me taking a Ksons force that doesn't really need Psychic power to function. Seems...contrary to fluff, but I've done it before in 4th Edition.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on June 2, 2017, 12:30:22 PM
They are still not giving us a complete picture though, so I'm reserving judgement at this stage about psychic powers and the effectiveness of Thousand Sons as a whole.  I will say, at this juncture, that I do not like the emphasis being placed on Magnus the Red.  I can just imagine him being fielded by one and all, and that would be disappointing for me.  To be honest, I'm not a fan of Primarchs being an option in 40K.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 2, 2017, 12:39:41 PM
Oh, sorry--the quote didn't parse quite the way I meant it to. I was mostly referring to the last bit:

Quote
It also now makes a lot of vehicles unappealing to me.

If you don't want to bring them, that's quite all right by me.  ;D

Killersquid

Hmmm...a unit of dudes all doing D3 wounds takes 2 turns to kill a transport. That's...not encouraging.

Worried on how dangerous this is going to make mechanized lists, is all. I kinds foresee a return to the bad old days of 5th Edition and the Ridiculously Tough Rhino.

It's not just Serpents for me, it's all of them honestly. My BA army is/was based around vehicles with CC units to support. This will be VERY difficult now.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 12:53:13 PM
They are still not giving us a complete picture though, so I'm reserving judgement at this stage about psychic powers and the effectiveness of Thousand Sons as a whole.  I will say, at this juncture, that I do not like the emphasis being placed on Magnus the Red.  I can just imagine him being fielded by one and all, and that would be disappointing for me.  To be honest, I'm not a fan of Primarchs being an option in 40K.

Yeah, I'm probably not ever fielding Magnus, not the least reason being I think the model is silly looking (nipple horns are stupid).

I know we haven't seen all the powers, but taking a look at the Eldar ones gives us *some* idea. Doom/Guide/Fortune are all the same, basically, but are only going to go off 50% of the time (75% with Magic Eldar Shenanigans). The Heretical discipline leaked also looks pretty damned awful (I'm sorry, I'm just not that impressed by re-rolling 1s on anything worse than a 3+, and even then...). Throw in the fact that the Tzeentch Lore is pretty much always the *worst* lore (7th Ed Daemons Expansion excepted), I have low expectations.

What I probably have to look forward to are a couple crappy "light you on fire" powers that randomly malfunction on a 4+ and some stupid thing that lets my sorcerer either get a +1 Attack or take a Mortal Wound. Screw that noise. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 01:39:09 PM
They are still not giving us a complete picture though, so I'm reserving judgement at this stage about psychic powers and the effectiveness of Thousand Sons as a whole.  I will say, at this juncture, that I do not like the emphasis being placed on Magnus the Red.  I can just imagine him being fielded by one and all, and that would be disappointing for me.  To be honest, I'm not a fan of Primarchs being an option in 40K.


Oh man, I think Primarch's are super cool. Magnus is not as much of an auto-take as he was before. He's been way toned down from 7th.

Thousand Sons are pretty good. Their guns all have great AP, and they are super durable against small arms. Sorcerers will be casting Smite to do mortal wounds here and there. They are pretty nice.

I find from what I've looked at so far, all units look pretty cool and useful.


Wyddr, check your PM :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 02:02:45 PM
Wyddr, check your PM :)

Thanks for that, Killersquid!

Given the REDACTED that you gave me, I can cautiously change my tone from pessimistic to cautiously optimistic. The Tzeentch powers (if that's what those were) are fairly handy and most of the troops got a bit cheaper (I think). Jury's still out on Tzaangors. 

Also, if I'm understanding what you told me about All Is Dust correctly, does that mean Dmg 1 weapons can't hurt Scarab Occult Termies? Or is there still a "rule of 1" in the game?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 02:08:44 PM
There is a rule of 1. Only power that can be cast more then once a turn is smite, and 1's always fail. But, a scarab terminator in cover has a 2+ save against everything but ap-3.

It also effects all save throws, so Inv would be improved too. A lot of attacks are damage 1, so they are tough cookies.

The powers are generic chaos powers. All csm sorcerers can use them.

Also remember. Model cost doesn't include weapons, you need to pay for all weapons too, although usually for core units it's super cheap or free.

Tzangors would be great cheap screening units to be a buffer against assault armies.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 2, 2017, 02:17:40 PM
Tzangors would be great cheap screening units to be a buffer against assault armies.

This is why I don't think they're entirely awful. Also for the fact that they don't now cost any more to give them pistols and chainswords.

In going through the point values, it does look like rubrics and their sorcerer are cheaper to the tune of about 30-40-ish points, which is huge. Vehicles are a lot more pricey, but justifiably so.

Big news: Ahriman! Finally, after *how* many editions of Ahriman, he finally, finally costs about as much as he is worth (options included). Took them freaking long enough.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 02:44:33 PM
I've been basically looking through the index's and it's really easy to see any units included in a list these days.

I'm really looking forward to getting in more games with my Harlequins and trying larger games. Points are going to fill up quick once I add in my transports.

Also itching to use my 6 obliterators lol.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 2, 2017, 03:45:54 PM
Does vehicle facing matter anymore as far as the weapons? Or are we doing 360s for days? I haven't seen anything about that from the pages that were shown.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 2, 2017, 04:31:04 PM
Does vehicle facing matter anymore as far as the weapons? Or are we doing 360s for days? I haven't seen anything about that from the pages that were shown.
From what I've seen, no.  Now come the days of land raiders firing 4 lascannons and I heavy bolters from the corner of their tracks!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 2, 2017, 05:07:45 PM
Yep, each gun shoots whatever direction it wants. Very dynamic.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on June 2, 2017, 08:42:33 PM
The digital pricing on the new indexes looks pretty good at $20 a pop

EDIT:Turns out my phone went to the NZ site, Aud price for them is $27. Cheaper to buy all digital formats in NZ, but cheaper to by physicals in Aus. Seems gw pricing is starting to follow their point system.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 2, 2017, 11:51:23 PM
Holy crap, brain overload....just spent 2 hours going thru the game store previews books, again holy crap. I'm gonna say that the power points system is looking pretty good. Not to sure about the actual points system yet, it's reminding more of Shadow wars set up, which is good but not yet. Also was able to decide which army I will be playing on opening night. I have a bit of building and painting to achieve before then, but it will be so worth it.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 4, 2017, 01:19:11 PM
Assassins and Sisters time.
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Imperial Agents – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/04/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-imperial-agents/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 4, 2017, 03:47:18 PM
Holy crap, brain overload....just spent 2 hours going thru the game store previews books, again holy crap. I'm gonna say that the power points system is looking pretty good. Not to sure about the actual points system yet, it's reminding more of Shadow wars set up, which is good but not yet. Also was able to decide which army I will be playing on opening night. I have a bit of building and painting to achieve before then, but it will be so worth it.


Personally, I wouldn't trust the power level system except at introduction and narrative games. For true balance, the actual points system is where it's at.

I could see power level being a great way to limit stronger things in smaller games.

Like 500pt combat patrol style games could restrict all units above (for example) 8 power level. Could be a cool mechanic for that.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 4, 2017, 06:34:12 PM
I do agree with you on that but for now getting our community up and running the power points will help get them started and after they absorb that then expand back to the points. Just getting a good run down on the rules before jumping into actual completion will help ease the transition I believe.

On another guick note, Wonder Woman is a great movie, totally blew me away. DC finally got it right.

And now back to our regular scheduled program.....
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on June 4, 2017, 06:42:58 PM
The acts of faith look pretty good.  I wonder if laud hailers are still a thing?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 4, 2017, 07:11:22 PM
The acts of faith look pretty good.  I wonder if laud hailers are still a thing?

They can be game winning if used well. Loud Hailers are not in the index, but will probably return when the faction gets a codex.

The index's are simple, for the most part, and I imagine we'll get all the flavour and extra stuff when the codex's come out. Sort of like the simplified army lists in the 3rd edition codex after the switch from 2nd-3rd.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: angel of death 007 on June 4, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
Stopped by my LGS today but their resident 40k guru was out so I could not preorder.  I was planning on getting the boxed set, aside from that do you need the indexes to get what you need for matched play?   Also is there anything else that would be a good idea to preorder?

Since some of you have played 8th edition I think this would be useful to hear.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 4, 2017, 07:35:45 PM
Wait, what? You couldn't pre-order as one individual employee wasn't available? It's not really rocket surgery for that.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 4, 2017, 07:36:22 PM
You will need the index for matched play. They're the source for the points system. We're not totally sure the datasheets, with the power level system and rules on them will be free or not.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 4, 2017, 07:43:22 PM
Stopped by my LGS today but their resident 40k guru was out so I could not preorder.  I was planning on getting the boxed set, aside from that do you need the indexes to get what you need for matched play?   Also is there anything else that would be a good idea to preorder?

Since some of you have played 8th edition I think this would be useful to hear.

the tactical objective cards might not be a bad buy either. I placed my pre-order yesterday. Ruleboox, xenos 1, chaos and the cards.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 4, 2017, 08:23:40 PM
My group are going to keep using our current cards for now. They should still work for the most part. Just discard ones that don't work with the new rule set.

I preordered new BRB, Xenos 1 (Eldar and Necrons) and both Imperial books (Blood Angels, Scions, Assassins).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 4, 2017, 09:13:24 PM
Swore I wouldn't preorder, but wound up doing so. Got the rulebook and all indexes. My poor wallet.  :-\
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 4, 2017, 09:31:32 PM
My group are going to keep using our current cards for now. They should still work for the most part. Just discard ones that don't work with the new rule set.


I played a game of 8th using the old cards. They work pretty well, as besides challenges there isn't really many cards that don't work!

Swore I wouldn't preorder, but wound up doing so. Got the rulebook and all indexes. My poor wallet.  :-\

All? Bold man.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 4, 2017, 09:36:23 PM
Fortune favours the brave, as do the credit card companies. Personally I stayed with rulebook +3 as the Imperials aren't interesting me at the moment.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 4, 2017, 10:22:17 PM
I'm just getting xenos book 1, I play all the armies in it, made since to me.

Cards??
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 4, 2017, 10:34:24 PM
Starter set and both Imperial Indexes for me.  Seriously on the fence about ordering Xenos 1 and the cards as well, but thinking those can wait a bit as my credit card has taken a amphetamine parrot kicking the past month.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 4, 2017, 11:39:23 PM
I'm just getting xenos book 1, I play all the armies in it, made since to me.

Cards??

The new general tactical objective cards.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 4, 2017, 11:44:47 PM
Ah, thanks.

Well it seems the sisters may be a force to reckon with, like they weren't before. Of course I don't have that army anymore. Still waiting for plastics, maybe then.

And assassins, well brutal to say the least.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 5, 2017, 01:04:31 AM
And assassins, well brutal to say the least.
They're actually pretty toned down now, but their points have been brought to a level that makes sense for their abilities.  There is no reason that the Vindicare should have been 150pts, whereas now he is much more reasonably costed for what he does.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 5, 2017, 06:24:46 AM
All? Bold man.

I own and play armies in 3 out of the 4 books, so I figured, what's another 25 bucks?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof) on June 5, 2017, 07:49:56 PM
I was dreading when they'd finally Sigmar 40k but it seems like we're getting something that isn't a total mess like 7th was.  It's shady that they sold so many supplements last year that are now obsolete but this is the same company that charges ever crazier prices even after it outsourced its manufacturing to slaves.  I've read some battle reports with the test rules and seen some videos, the response so far is positive.

The new power/upgrade system isn't perfect but when has GW ever cared about giving appropriate point values to things?  Space Marine Bikes used to be 35 points, Kastellans were a total bargain.  I'm encouraged that GW is releasing prototype rules for all the armies like it did in 3rd edition, if you're unhappy about something it will be tweaked when the index is released later.

Edit: the changes to how characters is also oldschool like 3rd/4th edition, that's nice.  The abolition of templates also means that there's no longer a need to shift models around at exactly 3" spacing to maximize survivability.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 6, 2017, 12:26:05 AM
3" spacing will help keep deep strikers from getting behind you in your deployment zone for a turn or 2 tho. The only thought I had on that. So even a conga line will still only suffer the amount of damage weapons put out.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Revener on June 6, 2017, 07:13:31 AM
The rule for poison weapon that if your strenght if high enough would let you wound on a better number than the posion value , for example 4+ but you have a Strenght of 6 VS T5 and would wound on 3+  is no more and high S units like DE Grotesques with S5 now wound of 4+ with fleshgauntlet no matter what. Thats is going to suck VS low T vehicles since they are wounded on 6+ even if you would wound them on 5+ with your bare fists. :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 6, 2017, 11:47:47 AM
The rule for poison weapon that if your strenght if high enough would let you wound on a better number than the posion value , for example 4+ but you have a Strenght of 6 VS T5 and would wound on 3+  is no more and high S units like DE Grotesques with S5 now wound of 4+ with fleshgauntlet no matter what. Thats is going to suck VS low T vehicles since they are wounded on 6+ even if you would wound them on 5+ with your bare fists. :)

That is not a rule.

But, some units like Grotesques have multiple weapons and can choose to use their Giant Cleavers, instead of the flesh Gauntlets when fighting vehicles.

But, hey, at least poison weapons can hurt vehicles now.

3" spacing will help keep deep strikers from getting behind you in your deployment zone for a turn or 2 tho. The only thought I had on that. So even a conga line will still only suffer the amount of damage weapons put out.

2" coherency Horizontally, 6" vertically. Nothing has a 3" coherency unless it says so on the units datasheet.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on June 6, 2017, 12:14:57 PM
To literal bud. Every one knows it's a 2 inch coherency. He was u it using that as example.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on June 6, 2017, 04:51:54 PM

3" spacing will help keep deep strikers from getting behind you in your deployment zone for a turn or 2 tho. The only thought I had on that. So even a conga line will still only suffer the amount of damage weapons put out.

2" coherency Horizontally, 6" vertically. Nothing has a 3" coherency unless it says so on the units datasheet.

DS must deploy 9" inches ways, given deplyment zones are typically 12", if you deploy 3" back, they can not DS behind you. Additionally no more blast templates, so you can have squads 3" apart making it hard for DS to land in the middle, or to keep a character out of rapid firing units from drop pods, etc, etc.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 6, 2017, 07:28:05 PM
True, although you'll need to move up eventually. But, at least deep striking models have to come in within the first three turns.

I'm really keen to try out warptime with mutilators to get in turn one charges with my iron warriors.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 10:09:23 AM
Harlequins are up. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/07/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-harlequins-june6/)

The interesting takeaway here is that there seems to be *some* effect for terrain to slow you down, since Flip Belts ignore it, though I hadn't seen any such in the core rules I've seen leaked. Perhaps flip belts just let them run over walls/vertical terrain?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 7, 2017, 10:24:29 AM
In the advanced rules, there are rules for ruins and other terrain types. Ruins for example subtract 2" from charge distance.

Also, from the games I played, Harlequins are really good. They hit harder, and are way more resilient then in 7th. Plus, rising crescendo is imo one of the best faction universal rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 01:13:14 PM
In the advanced rules, there are rules for ruins and other terrain types. Ruins for example subtract 2" from charge distance.

Ah, good. I'm glad. 

Quote
Also, from the games I played, Harlequins are really good. They hit harder, and are way more resilient then in 7th. Plus, rising crescendo is imo one of the best faction universal rules.

Well, yeah. That rule is incredible. Everybody wishes they could have that rule.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 7, 2017, 05:43:01 PM
I think one of the biggest differences in terrain is that the rules flat out say that you can not move through walls.  With previous editions, if you had ruins set up as area terrain, they blocked line of sight but units could bust through the walls ala Kool-Aide Man.  Now, you have to go around unless you have a rule that says otherwise (like the Flip Belt).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Revener on June 7, 2017, 06:03:17 PM
The rule for poison weapon that if your strenght if high enough would let you wound on a better number than the posion value , for example 4+ but you have a Strenght of 6 VS T5 and would wound on 3+  is no more and high S units like DE Grotesques with S5 now wound of 4+ with fleshgauntlet no matter what. Thats is going to suck VS low T vehicles since they are wounded on 6+ even if you would wound them on 5+ with your bare fists. :)

That is not a rule.

But, some units like Grotesques have multiple weapons and can choose to use their Giant Cleavers, instead of the flesh Gauntlets when fighting vehicles.

But, hey, at least poison weapons can hurt vehicles now.



Yeah a read a bit fast and didn't think it through when I playtested. I read the  cleaver as 1 attack aside from the rest with fleshgauntlet doh! :)
Either way it is still an issue on some units. Like wracks fpr example they have S3 and would wound T5 Vehicles on 5+ but their weapon makes them wound it on 6+  .

Btw losing 1 A with the Wych hekatrix when you take an agonizer sucks.

Either way there are some change that are more like streamdumbing than streamlining the gameplay.

Like if one unit have 1 model outside of cover everyone in the unit  can get  killed.

Removing Initiative in combat was kind of meh too.
The moral test at the end of closecombat includes losses you took in overwatch .
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 7, 2017, 06:24:16 PM

The moral test at the end of closecombat includes losses you took in overwatch .

Losses you took in the whole turn. Shooting included.

Quote
Yeah a read a bit fast and didn't think it through when I playtested. I read the  cleaver as 1 attack aside from the rest with fleshgauntlet doh! :)
Either way it is still an issue on some units. Like wracks fpr example they have S3 and would wound T5 Vehicles on 5+ but their weapon makes them wound it on 6+  .

Btw losing 1 A with the Wych hekatrix when you take an agonizer sucks.

Shouldn't be seeing too many vehicles on the table anymore, as they are incredibly more expensive then they used to be. Dark Eldar have amazing tools for dealing with armor as well. Scourge's, Ravegers, all good.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 7, 2017, 06:25:49 PM
I think one big change not yet discussed is the loss of a bonus attack for charging. Granted a lot of assault specialists got that rule back with gear, but it's a big swing for those who don't have the kit.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Revener on June 8, 2017, 05:50:55 AM
I think one big change not yet discussed is the loss of a bonus attack for charging. Granted a lot of assault specialists got that rule back with gear, but it's a big swing for those who don't have the kit.

What most units  lost and got back is the extra atack lost from having two close combat weapons.

None of the DE assault units got an extra attack to make up on te loss fore the charghe attack, although wyches can now shoot pistols in the fight phase even in close combat so.

Wyches get the same number of melee attacks as before though if they use the Hekatarii knife but if the Hekatric switch it out for another weapon she lose 1 attack.

Wracks got A2 though and the Acothyst A3 so he doesn't lose an atatck when he takes another weapon.


Post Merge: June  8, 2017, 06:09:11 AM
In the future, please use the modify button. Double posting is against the forum rules, and for that reason, the system merged your posts.


The moral test at the end of closecombat includes losses you took in overwatch .

Losses you took in the whole turn. Shooting included.

Quote
Yeah a read a bit fast and didn't think it through when I playtested. I read the  cleaver as 1 attack aside from the rest with fleshgauntlet doh! :)
Either way it is still an issue on some units. Like wracks fpr example they have S3 and would wound T5 Vehicles on 5+ but their weapon makes them wound it on 6+  .

Btw losing 1 A with the Wych hekatrix when you take an agonizer sucks.

Shouldn't be seeing too many vehicles on the table anymore, as they are incredibly more expensive than they used to be. Dark Eldar have amazing tools for dealing with armor as well. Scourge's, Ravegers, all good.

1.
I know it is from all shooting but it is kind of hard to get shot other than in overwatch in your own turn :) But yeah for the enemy that you shoot before you charge it is from all shooting I guess. So yeah I sloppily wrote that from the perspective as attackign in my turn. :)

2.
Yeah well I play CC DE with some support, the nerfing of DE's close combat Anti Tank the last few years  is really annoying. All other armies that can CC get decent AT options in CC. Would like some flexibility back in the game instead of more limited gear choices for units in every new codex. Look at the Archon now it is lame and was lame in the third codex too. Anyway, I do not want to use scourges Oh well time to dust off the old Talos I guess.

Besides this, Toughness is not as good as before since you have twice the T VS S before you get wounded on 6+ . So a S3 wounds a T5 on 5+ compared to before when it was 6+. So alot of vehicles now get wounded on 5+ instead of 6+.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 9, 2017, 12:29:29 PM
After a few days of relative tedium it's Ynnari time.
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Ynnari – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/09/warhammer-40000-faction-focus-ynnari/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on June 10, 2017, 01:39:34 AM
I got my first game of 8th in a couple of days ago, and I am quite impressed.

Some of the things I took away from the game:

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on June 10, 2017, 12:10:08 PM
It's cool that hoards have found a purpose.  You should be somewhat rewarded for having the patience to build all those models.

And from all I've heard, nids, orks and the guard are back in the game!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 10, 2017, 01:01:39 PM
  • You need psychic defence of some kind.
Oh. Good.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on June 10, 2017, 01:21:12 PM
Oh that's right.  Tau don't have any pyshic defence.  ;D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 10, 2017, 01:23:22 PM
They did previously with Farsight but we'll see in a week whether anything useful carried over. Still, I'll happily accept when Eldar players shut the beslubber up about overwatch.  ;)

Eurrgh. They're trying the global campaign thing again. This never goes well.
The Fate of Konor: More on the Global Campaign – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/10/the-fate-of-konor-more-on-the-global-campaign-june10/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on June 10, 2017, 01:53:05 PM
They did previously with Farsight but we'll see in a week whether anything useful carried over. Still, I'll happily accept when Eldar players shut the beslubber up about overwatch.  ;)

Eurrgh. They're trying the global campaign thing again. This never goes well.
The Fate of Konor: More on the Global Campaign – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/10/the-fate-of-konor-more-on-the-global-campaign-june10/)

At least this time they're sticking with defined sides as opposed to saying "everybody all in for a nonsensical, 12-faction pig-pile!"

Granted you can still play Orks/Eldar/Tau and disrupt things, but framing it primarily as an Imperium Vs Chaos thing will help keep it sane.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 10, 2017, 05:02:26 PM
The AoS campaign last summer was quite a lot of fun, And it was basically between Chaos and Order as well, mostly due to demographics more than anything.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: murgel on June 11, 2017, 08:30:34 AM
Eurrgh. They're trying the global campaign thing again. This never goes well.
The Fate of Konor: More on the Global Campaign – Warhammer Community

Well I always liked the globals, they were fun and brought with them quite some good stories.
Amd I will be forever grateful for the Ulthwe Strike force. (and be sad that is has died again after just a few month of living. I hope it will be back in the new codex or a simple PDF)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 12, 2017, 12:38:50 PM
Another look a the big boys xenos style:
Forge World Index: Xenos Preview – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/12/forge-world-index-xenos-preview/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on June 12, 2017, 04:29:25 PM
Oh man, the Y'varha is soo good. Funny that if it deepstrikes, it cannot shoot it's flamer, only 8" range.

Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 12, 2017, 10:36:23 PM
Oh man, the Y'varha is soo good. Funny that if it deepstrikes, it cannot shoot it's flamer, only 8" range.

That's the trade off to being able to deep strike so accurately.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 12, 2017, 10:56:22 PM
Especially considering it's also part of that unit's escape mechanism from unfortunate situations.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 17, 2017, 02:35:27 PM
Some rules from a legitimate business operation.
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English.pdf (https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Warhammer-40k-Battle-Primer-English.pdf)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on June 17, 2017, 08:04:43 PM
Why not link directly to GW site:

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf (https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/40k/warhammer_40000_en.pdf)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on June 17, 2017, 08:14:35 PM
That was a GW site, as linked from here for the English version:
New Edition Now Available – Read the Rules, Get the T-Shirt! – (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/06/17/new-edition-now-available-read-the-rules-get-the-t-shirtgw-homepage-post-1/)

If there's a problem, perhaps you should tell the office.  ;)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on June 19, 2017, 04:09:02 AM
Ha! Weird.
Strange address is confusing... :D
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: SKEETERGOD on June 21, 2017, 12:44:40 AM
Now, I have read the rules, and it looks like you can only disembark BEFORE the transport moves. Maybe I am missing something somewhere, but that kinda kills the drive up jump out and assault tactic...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Blazinghand on June 21, 2017, 02:25:09 AM
Now, I have read the rules, and it looks like you can only disembark BEFORE the transport moves. Maybe I am missing something somewhere, but that kinda kills the drive up jump out and assault tactic...

there are a couple of ways around this. you can drive up close then wait a turn and hope your transport lives. You can also assault with the transport, then next turn disembark your units and have them join the assault as well (or pull the transport back). almost always though your transport will face some exposure to either enemy fire or melee attacks.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Revener on June 21, 2017, 05:51:03 AM
Yeah but if they kill the transport and you can't disembark (they surrounded you)  you are dead :)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Blazinghand on June 21, 2017, 06:21:28 AM
Yeah, don't do this against any unit large enough to surround you and prevent your models from disembarking. This would also be a problem even if they did not kill your transport, because you would not be able to disembark. the opponent will gladly use his Pile In and Consolidate to cause you problems
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on June 21, 2017, 12:47:14 PM
Keep in mind, you disembark 3, and cam then MOVE and ASSAULT as normal. All vehicles can do this. Vehicles are quite a bit more durable now, and require some decent effort to wipe them in one turn (even a rhino for example).

Also, some of the new deployment types can have you start 12-18 away from the enemy, so first turn assaults, even if the transport didn't move are possible.

It's really not as bad as it sounds.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Blazinghand on June 21, 2017, 03:49:46 PM
So with Banshees in a Wave Serpent at the very front of your deployment zone, you average a threat range of 18" from the front of the serpent. For Ork Boyz (who can reroll charge rolls, but move more slowly than Banshees) you have an average threat range of 17" from the front of a Trukk at the front of your deployment zone.

This also means you don't need to roll up right on top of an enemy to try to assault them. If you move your Trukk so it's 12" away from the enemy (rather than right on top of them) you are reasonably likely to be able to pull off a charge next turn.

I haven't played a lot of 8e but the game I played with orkz I was able to get off a charge with foot and bike units then followed up with models in the Trukks in the following turn. I wonder if these disembarkation rules will favor bikers.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on August 9, 2017, 04:25:05 PM
Chapter Approved said to be in stores before the end of the year.
Matched Play Updates Coming in Chapter Approved – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/09/new-matched-play-rules-in-chapter-approved-aug-9gw-homepage-post-1/)
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on August 9, 2017, 04:30:34 PM
Will these updates, or at least the most important ones, be added to the free version of the rules as well?  I have this nagging concern that they may not be.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 9, 2017, 06:24:29 PM
Will these updates, or at least the most important ones, be added to the free version of the rules as well?  I have this nagging concern that they may not be.

It's a separate book. Chapter Approved.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Blazinghand on August 9, 2017, 09:29:41 PM
So, now everyone needs to buy two base rulebooks?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on August 9, 2017, 10:32:44 PM
No. These are additional rules by the sounds of it. In the preview on the community site it has additional/different missions and such. Seems more geared towards matched/tournament play.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on August 9, 2017, 10:59:04 PM
They're not all optional though, Boots on the Ground for instance. Explained on the Community page so free, currently.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on August 9, 2017, 11:11:15 PM
soo it will be on the shelf by Christmas, but 2 tourney's will be using it in August/November.... soo people going to the event will have to build an army around unknown rules..
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on August 10, 2017, 05:25:08 AM
It's a separate book. Chapter Approved.

I appreciate that, but what I was driving out was whether certain rules, such as Boots on the Ground, which Rummy mentions above, are going to be included in the free rules once Chapter Approved comes out.  The concern for me is that updated core rules, such as this, will end up being in the books only and players will be told that if they want to have the amended core rules they will have to pay for them.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 10, 2017, 07:15:37 AM
Those are not core rules. They are supplimentary rules for matched play. No matched play rules are available for free.

Looks like chapter approved will be the generals handbook for 40k.

My wonder, is if it'll replace the matched play rules in the cardcover rulebook, meaning you don't need that book.

No matter what, the tournament scene is pretty messed up right now, I'm happy gw is working on a system to sort it out. And, a lot of these changes seem based on one's the ITC has already been using.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on August 10, 2017, 10:07:57 AM
The preview on the community site states that you can choose which matched play rules to use. So I would assume it does not invalidate the core rules.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: dalaran1991 on August 11, 2017, 04:55:49 AM
Hello, could somebody please let me know where is the canon / official source for the advancing storyline and new stuffs in 8th ed mentioned here?

Dark Imperium/8th Ed. fluff leaks/rumors : 40kLore (https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/6fgc8a/dark_imperium8th_ed_fluff_leaksrumors/)

It's a list of the changes, like on 4chan. But what's the source? Is it the rulebook for Dark Imperium?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on August 11, 2017, 06:43:33 AM
Hello, could somebody please let me know where is the canon / official source for the advancing storyline and new stuffs in 8th ed mentioned here?

Dark Imperium/8th Ed. fluff leaks/rumors : 40kLore (https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/6fgc8a/dark_imperium8th_ed_fluff_leaksrumors/)

It's a list of the changes, like on 4chan. But what's the source? Is it the rulebook for Dark Imperium?

Thanks!

allll over the place...

Some of it is covered by the Gathering storm+Audio series taking off from there, Some in the new rules book and some in the new codexes. Sounds like a bit of guess work is in there as well.


Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 11, 2017, 07:13:49 AM
The Dark Imperium novel which just came out, is where a lot of that information comes from.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: dalaran1991 on August 11, 2017, 10:05:30 AM
The Dark Imperium novel which just came out, is where a lot of that information comes from.

Thanks, I'll get it!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on August 13, 2017, 06:02:06 PM
Those are not core rules. They are supplimentary rules for matched play. No matched play rules are available for free.

The video says they are rules for all 3 play styles, not just Matched play.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Calamity on August 27, 2017, 04:49:11 PM
The Deathguard and the Adeptus Mechanicus are on their way. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/22/codex-death-guard-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/)  And look at that, rules for individual forge worlds.  Makes me confident the IG will get regiment types back.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 27, 2017, 04:54:51 PM
The Deathguard and the Adeptus Mechanicus are on their way. (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/08/22/codex-death-guard-first-lookgw-homepage-post-2/)  And look at that, rules for individual forge worlds.  Makes me confident the IG will get regiment types back.

Oh yeah. I'm excited when Tau and Necrons get the the chapter treatment too (and My Harlequins!). I cannot wait to see what cool ability the Masque of Midnight Sorrow gets!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Aurics Pride on August 29, 2017, 11:25:52 AM
Prices for the Deathguard stuff have been leaked and it looks like Mortarion is going to be even more expensive than Magnus!
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Dread on August 29, 2017, 11:51:49 AM
Yup I figured somewhere in the $120 range. I got the GK dex and it's nice but not $40 nice. It's a shame that they don't just do a white dwarf with each armies upgrades for those if us that just want to play and not fluffgasm over it all. I know how expensive this is from 26 years of it. The books with the armies are nice and somewhat affordable.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: magenb on August 30, 2017, 06:21:55 PM
yeah I guess they are moving everything to age of sigma style, including the pricing.. named hero's range from $180 - $280 for us down here.

Funny thing is I see a lot of returning players with 8th, some are starting from scratch again, but they are all adults, I have not seen any young people picking the hobby up, not in my LGS nor the local GW store, in talking to the staff they have noticed the same thing as well.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lorizael on August 30, 2017, 07:41:26 PM
It's going to vary a lot depending on the area, the current customer base and the guys who run the stores.
Locally we've had a really big upsurge in younger kids starting the hobby. Boxes like First Strike make it really easy to get playing at a lower entry point.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Partninja on August 30, 2017, 09:09:16 PM
They announced (at NOVA) CWE, Nids and IG codex's for November!

It seems the chapter approved book is going to include updated points costs for many armies, as well as additional army rules. I thought the point of 8th was to not have rules spread across a billion books?
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Cavalier on August 31, 2017, 07:30:16 AM
So happy to hear about this suite of codices coming so soon. I think its great for the game. You've got some of the core factions represented really soon out the gate, with some major sub factions represented as well. Awesome news!

@Partninja- I think its pretty unavoidable. The game has sooooo many factions, sub-factions etc. Also I'm quite happy to see new units be released without need for a codex... and to have them balanced via Chapter Approved if they prove crazy or crappy.  I'll also take the "living rules" at the cost of extra books every time. 

Also its probably the 2nd Edition AD&D player in me but I love diving through all the books to find all the esoteric stuff.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 31, 2017, 09:06:30 AM
They announced (at NOVA) CWE, Nids and IG codex's for November!

It seems the chapter approved book is going to include updated points costs for many armies, as well as additional army rules. I thought the point of 8th was to not have rules spread across a billion books?

Once everyone has a codex, it'll be easy. Chapter Approved is a good way to update the index bound factions which don't have a codex yet. Once they get their codex, that'll be all they need. Nice for the folks who'll be waiting a while (like my Harlequins).
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Irisado on August 31, 2017, 10:20:44 AM
The idea of streamlining is meant to include the number of books and publications, as well as the rules, so the possibility that there could be codices published, which subsequently have changed made by a Chapter Approved publication, would undermine the concept of simplifying the game.  This was one of the reasons why GW did away with Chapter Approved and rules in White Dwarf in the past.  The idea was to stop players having to reference so many publications.  They're just reinventing the wheel here.

Had GW published all the unit data sheets and points values for all the armies free online and provided online amendments, and then left all the narrative and other material for published codices for players who wanted to pay for them, this approach would be acceptable, but if, and I do stress if, it's going to be necessary to buy codices and Chapter Approved, on top of the cost of the indices for those players who invested in them, that really would be a retrograde step.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Wyddr on August 31, 2017, 10:54:50 AM
Gotta agree with Irisado. While the game may be healthier and better balanced than it has been for a while, the whole "we siphon money from you in the form of endless overlapping rulesets" seems to be exactly the same as its been for the last two editions.

The Index books should be free, first of all--basic datasheets, easy to get. Codexes should be as they have always been. Chapter Approved had better be cheap to buy. If it's another $55 USD hardback, I'm going to be grumpy. 
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: The GrimSqueaker on August 31, 2017, 10:58:27 AM
As Irisado said, a potential problem, which we won't know till Chapter Approved comes out, is whether there'll be any changes to already released codexes. So Index -> Codex -> Chapter Approved all within six months. That'd be a big ball of suck caused by the rush to publication. FAQs we all understand. They're also free and don't require another book purchase.
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on August 31, 2017, 06:24:36 PM
What I have been told by local GW store owner, is they are going to be making this all into an app (like in AOS) which puts all the FAQ's and updates etc added in automatically. So you are just referencing one item - the app, and you are good from there.


Mind you, I was told this back in May, so we shall see if it comes to be at all...
Title: Re: Eighth Edition News
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on August 31, 2017, 06:44:09 PM
They did say there will be an army builder like warscroll builder, or azyr released after the launch of 40k, but not immediately. I could imagine that they'd want to get the bulk of codex's out first.