Topic: Dark Eldar Revisions #9 Scourges

[faithlessmonkeigh]

ok, so we now finnish off heavy support.

scourges, fast moving devastator squads.... hmm, ok what?
why would you have.....?

its like taking devastator squads in a blood angels army!!

why would you take them, especially when you can take sniper squads instead?

ill tell you the reason why... the models arent half crap, and they can be given splinter cannons instead of the useless under the circumstances dark lances.

this provides a problem however.... how can you make up the points of the squad with splinter cannons? (they are expensice enough!!) , unless you are playing horde armies.

the scourges, i think are for the most part bad, because they are much too specialist... having a place in some battles (few) against some armies, but being completely useless against others on different fields.

ok, cities of death not withstanding.... how can these models serve a use?

please please, offer your suggestions, even if they come from far out of left field, this unit needs any help it can get.


faithless

[Kritik]

I believe the idea was to lose the scourges and start an "Warrior Veterans" that will take the place of Scourges if upgraded properly.

But beyond that, too expensive, sucks, should have a dark Lance that isn't penelized by movement, etc.

[allconsuminghat]

Perhaps given blasters.

Or the ability to shoot heavy weapons on the move as long as they don't use more than half the weapon's range.
The ability to get disintegrators too is definately up there, but can only fire at sustained mode.

So the Weapons are:

Splinter Cannon as is: - Anti Horde, and weapon with the best range.
Disintegrator (sustained only) - Anti Meq, very short 12" range (half for heavy weapons remember).
Dark Lance - Anti Tank, average/decent 18" range.

Seems like a balanced unit to me.

Some people wanted them to have 4+ saves but I don't like this ideas as they are just warriors with jump packs. Just make them a little cheaper, not much though because this buff would make them significantly better, and we don't want them to be cheesy or anything do we?

I really like this idea alot, the moving and shooting heavy weapons at half range thing, seems rather balanced, and the stronger the weapon gets, the shorter the range really.

[Toad_Raider]

I don't know about the whole 'dissies for squads' movement that has sprung up all over the place... It's a vehicle weapon!  You don't see Spacemarine devastators running around with a demolisher cannon each.  The way to solve this is *we need more weapon options*. 

That is for another thread however... 

The problem with Scourges is - as already noted - they can not move and fire our heavy weapon, and the Splinter Cannon is a little strange to see in heavy support IMHO.  Moving and shooting heavy weapon's at half range solves this problem - deep striking to attack tanks suddenly becomes an interesting idea, rather than just stupid.

In other words, I pretty much stick with Tenozuma.

[Nightshade Thorn]

I think a unit point cost reduction is all that would be needed, I would have no problem taking them for a few points less.

How about taking Dissies, but able to fire in Maximal mode if the unit remains stationary, in sustainedif they move, and only a few a unit?

[Deamian]

I'm indifferent to the dissies issue. I have afew things to point out:

With all of these strait-up mobile firepower upgrades you got to consider thier efectiveness compared to a ravager...chances are the ravager will be bettetter.

So what should the solution be? Have them fill another niche. Have them do somthing that ravagers can't do, have them be suberb flying infantry. They're suposed to use thier wings to get to a good position, redeploy quickly, ect...

I would say drop thier points down to 12 a piece, drop the points of dark lances to 15 and keep splinter cannons at 20. Thats right, splinter cannon more expensive. This is because the SC allows you to maintain mobily while the DL dosn't.

Beyond that I would give them the following special rules-

Quick set up: Scourges know how to set thier weapons up fast, and so may as if they had remained stationaty the turn they deepstrike.

Shadow suit: Scourges have special chamelion suits that help them blend in with cover and distor thier image. They always count as having a 6+ cover save, and add +1 to any cover they have.

Scouts: If they do not deep strike they may make a 6" move before the game begins, representing the speed at which they can get into position.

[Bannedface666]

Wow, alot of very good ideas.

I believe the entire problem with scourges is simply their points cost.

If they were reduced in cost, and their weapons dropped accordingly, the scourges could stay exactly how they are.

Right now you can get a 2 dark lances with 10 wounds for 100 points.

maybe the scourges should cost 12 points, as noted in a previous post. The dark lances can cost 15 points and the splinter cannon can cost 15 points also. Both weapons have strengths and weaknesses, and neither should cost more then the other. Sure you can move and shoot the SC, but the DL can kill alot more different kinds of models, and still have further range.

Maybe the squad can share the heavy support upgrade. The entire squad counts as having a night shield for +20 points. night shield would simply make any weapon firing at the squad at minus 6", except for the usual exceptions given for the night shield..

so you can have 10 scourges with 4 darklances and a night shield for 200 points.

This is basically the same as two squads of dark lances... 200 points also. But the two squads benefit from more wounds and spliting enemy fire on them. I think the night shield would help make up for an expensive unit by forcing your enemies to get closer to you, triggering your counter assault with wyches and what not.


changes--
scourges 12 points each
DL and SC 15 points each. 4 weapons per squad, mixing allowed.
night shield 20 point upgrade

[ArchonCryx]

I think I might have an idea that just might make scourges useful with minimal change... just give them a Scout move! Now our 4 DL Scourge squad can set up somewhere potentially useful, and only use those wings to quickly redeploy if it's needed?

Of course, I bascially agree in current config they dont fulfil an important niche- we want to get away from the notion of Scourges as Devestators cause  Jump Packs dont mix well with Hvy weapons!

The most obvious solution for Scourges is to allow them to have Blasters instead of their DLs - now they would make a very nasty Deep Striker, and yu could have them as a Fast Attack Choice in Haemonculus armies.

Dissie - nah, I dont like this one, Dissies are a vehicle weapon.

I think we need to get away from the notion that Scourges are our devestators becvause it's quite nonsensical - two sniper squads are a better Devestator squad than any Dev squad I can think of!

Scourges with options for SC/Bl/and maybe the new and improved Shredder (= S6 Ap - flamer please?)would be a good start, and maybe have them as Fast Attack instead of Heavy? The Scourges would also be cool if they had access to SP/CCWs for a more assault oriented fast squad.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

I very much like the idea of them being fast attack and being scouts.

On the CC options, maybe let up to 4 of them take Agonisers, or maybe punishers, although I don't much like the Punisher idea - that should be strictly Incubi.

[Deamian]

No special weapons please, that would be completely and utterly a fast attack role (which is so rare in our army, right?), and these guys should be heavy support.

[Ollieb]

If left as a HS choice....

Loose the wings (a HS unit that moves 12"??)

Perhaps make them heavy weapons teams along the lines of IG.  Weapons options would be DLs or Disintegrators.  Only instead of a 36" range allow them to shoot 48" so we have at least one unit with long range Anti tank/personnel firepower.

Hidden setup/concealment first turn so they don't get waxed right off the bat.  Or "shrouding" of some sort, so you must use nightfight rules to target them.

Scout move is a plus.

Make them a FA choice...
SC/Blasters/Shredders or SP/CCW for arming.

Infiltrate

This one will never fly but allow them to deploy WWPs the turn they deepstrike.  I'll take 2 squads every game.

[Jole]

some ideas
 
*on turn of deep striking they get 2x the amount of shots on their weapons

*they have a version of Dark lances have a gun that can shoot twice to a distance of 24" or up to 48"(the 48" is only if they didn't move), or otherwise are given a multiple shot strength 6 assault weapon

*they get the hellion 5++ save when they move with this combined with the scout rule

*They get a points reduction

I dont mean for all of these ideas to be implemented in one, but to be mixed and matched (so noone post that they are too good with everything from above as you'll look stupid)

[Khira'lyth]

I like the idea of simply reducing the cost.  They're a good unit as-is, they're just expensive for their fragility.  Being fragile is nothing new to us... but we're not used to paying a premium for it.  The cost is the only thing that really needs to be looked at.

Now, if you wanted to offer a new option, where they could take Pistols & CCW's, and throw Scourges into a FA slot, that's fine and dandy by me... we could go for a nice Kabalite FA. 

Another thing, though - the Sybarite in a Scourge Squad is... well.... you know how they are.  That model is 99/100 times left at home, or has been chopped up for bitz right out of the box.  Sure, you can give him a Terrorfex... but if you've gone and let your Scourges get within 12" of something (this is assuming it's used as a defensive measure) then you've gone a bit wacky with your Scourges.  Nothing wrong with running up and pinning someone (after letting loose with 16 Cannon shots). 

However, I think it's an expensive upgrade with very little use.  If he had some options that would benefit the squad (such as allowing him to buy an advanced targetter that allowed HW's to be fired at half range on the move, or perhaps give them stable platform as long as they move 6" or less that turn, etc) then that'd be worth it.  Now I've advocated against the "move and fire HW" a lot with scourges... I don't think it's ability that should just be given to them, but as a wargear piece for the Sybarite it's not too bad.  The wings are about relocation, not total mobility.... yes, it costs too much for this ability, and the points should drop.  If Scourges did cost 12 each with 15 per Weapon, you could get 5 Scourges with 4 weapons for 120 points.  About the price of a Ravager (similar, at least) for an extra Lance, and an easily hide-able squad.

Remember... if there's a unit that you'd take the max of every game because it's so effective... the unit is probably overpowered.  Mmm... the good ol' days of the 3rd ed Biovore.... they were on my lists before my HQ was half the time.... Man they were broken.  But.



In short, I say decrease the points, and making the Syb more useful with a nice piece of Wargear or two would be very nice.  Perhaps offer a FA slot with Pistols and CCW's (here the Syb could really shine).

Khira'lyth

[Ollieb]

If they are made a FA choice then they would compete with Hellions for army list space as I doubt anyone would take both of those units in one list.  We need to keep a dismounted HS option, these guys just need some tweaking.

[Khira'lyth]

I'm not sure I follow you on this... in your above post you were saying that having a FA Scourge option would be a good idea... now it's not? 

Yeah, they'd probably compete with Hellions... however they *would* have distinct roles (assuming they each get the revisions desired... for ease (and self-importance) I'll go with my version of the revised hellions). 

Scourges cost 12 points, Hellions cost 14
Scourges are your generic Jet-packed-assault-warrior type troops
Hellions are the Wych version - they get Combat drugs

Hellions have a massive charge (splinter shots plus the 2 S4 attacks, possible S5, on the charge) but next to no Staying Power (however they do have hit and run)
Scourges have a pretty standard charge (3 attacks each, plus Syb), and have the 2 CCW's to maintain some staying power.

Also Hellions are a 0-1 choice (in case you like lots of fast assault troops, which some people do)

I personally would go with Hellions myself.  I have no problem running Wych Units within my Kabal, I like their models, and I would prefer their rules to the generic Scourge variety.

Khira'lyth

[Ollieb]

Those were just options I threw out if they were turned into a FA choice.  The last post was an afterthought.  I was afraid if I edited the original one it would get lost.

[Deamian]

I like some of Olliebs original ideas, though I like having the wings- the idea is they aren't there for speed and constantly hopping around, but for redeployement.

The problem is that people generally would rather get one more volly off and be assaulted than to run away. Maby allow them to fire on the move, but at BS2?

Oh, and for making them FA: No. We already have people who fill that role quite nicely. The way you put it there would be very little reason to take scourges over hellions.

[Khira'lyth]

Scourges as assault troops (with CCW's) have some major bonuses over the Hellions.

They're cheaper, they have staying power, and they don't run the risk of rolling a Crazed result on drugs, which would take away the Hellions (arguable) best ability to Hit and Run (as they're .. or rather would be... deadly on the charge, and nothing else).

Also there are those who are interested in Kabal-Only lists - scourges offer this.

I'm perfectly happy leaving Scourges as HS... but I don't think a FA slot option is completely out of hte question either.

Khira'lyth

[Deamian]

Well then make a kabalite fast attack, but don't have them replace scourges.

[Khira'lyth]

I wouldn't have them replace Scourges so much as be an added option.  In addition to the HS Scourges that we know and love (well, maybe if they were cheaper....), we'd have the option to take them as a FA choice instead, as long as they had XXX options instead of the normal Lances/Cannons.

Such as the CCW toting squad.  Two seperate entries, both Scourges.  One FA, one HS.

Khira'lyth