Topic: New codex...

[The Reborn]

Just read through the Harlies codex, have to say...I like it.
Glass hammers?  Of course they are, but what did you expect?
Some darn good options and synergies in there....they'll be nasty until they get FAQ-nerfed.
Solitaire looks nasty and the Webway Gate will be useful.

[magenb]

Webway gate is pointless. It can be shut down just by enemies moving too close it to, forcing you to spend command points to get a unit out, at which point you may as well have spent the CP to DS anywhere and increased the size of your army.

Even if they don't shut it down, I can maybe pull two units of with CP, but if they blow it up, then I could lose units.

It is also the price of 6 players with melee upgrades or an extra transport or heavy support option, in an army that already has a low model count (and low wound count) everything really needs to pull its weight and this doesn't give me any real bang for buck, especially when I can do better with just using CP.

Great looking model so I'll definately be grabbing one, but I'll never use it with those rules.

[Fenris]

Well, I've been looking through the codex, and I'm sorry for being so negative, I'm really trying to find a positive spin on it, but if I had bought this codex I would have demanded my money back before I left the store.

This is a glasshammer army that forgot to bring the hammer, so I'd rather add some silver to the glass and make it a mirror to put on the table, maybe that webway gate is useful for holding up the mirror or at least as a frame?

Cegorach needs to stay hidden for now, no wonder his minions wear masks, they are embarrassing.

[Blazinghand]

Several new options, very good chapter tactics, useful stratagems, relics, wargear, and point reductions or buffs to several important units, particularly the shadowseer, starweaver open-topped rule, voidweaver guns, players, skyweavers, etc. This is quite a nice codex that makes an already-valid faction much better and more competitive. I'd have liked more fluff for M41+, but that's how it goes I suppose.

[Lord of Winter and War]

Well, I've been looking through the codex, and I'm sorry for being so negative, I'm really trying to find a positive spin on it, but if I had bought this codex I would have demanded my money back before I left the store.

This is a glasshammer army that forgot to bring the hammer, so I'd rather add some silver to the glass and make it a mirror to put on the table, maybe that webway gate is useful for holding up the mirror or at least as a frame?

Cegorach needs to stay hidden for now, no wonder his minions wear masks, they are embarrassing.

Besides the webway Gate, you're completely wrong. Harlequins in the index were garbage, but now they have kick.

They are fragile, yes, but can dish out a lot of damage. My experiences with the new book have been extremely positive. It's not a forgiving army, but that's what eldar should be like.

I've been playing Harlequins since the plastic models came out, and this is the best book they've had yet.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

So my copy will not be in for another week...  So I am going off what I can gleam from other sources / videos etc.

I have to say the damage potential here is pretty insane. If they are costed well for that I've yet to figure out...

As to the gate... I feel like you need to run 2 of them and for non-Harlequin armies. 'Quins neither need nor want it, and I'd argue except for the voidweaver, are more hurt then helped by it. My hesitation though is 240 pts is probably too much of an investment for what you get from it... That is 12% of a 2k army...Maybe if you are dropping in Wraith Guard and the like... but idk.

I am curious, does the gate allow you to deploy from it T1 outside your deployment zone? If not, then it's a waste imo.

Either way, the rest of the codex seems pretty good. Not amazing, but certainly worth looking into. I am considering taking a Vanguard detachment to pick up two death jesters (one with curtain fall) and a solitaire and shadowseer in my 2k ITC list. Need to playtest it but should do some damage!

[Cavalier]

I think the new Harlequin codex is absolutely savage. Not only do they hit like a freight train in combat, very reliable and versatile array of ranged shooting, they are maddeningly elusive with -1 to hit across the board, webway protection via stratagem and ontop of all that they come at a points total are reasonable enough that they can field enough bodies to survive.

I'm so excited to finally start a Harlie army. I just put in my order today and cant wait for my first Troupe + Starweaver to arrive.

I think this army really has legs and since we are at the end of the run of codices they are thankfully balanced against all that has come before them.

As for the Webway Gate, sadly its kind of crap. Its way too expensive and way too risky. For it work it needs to be WAY cheaper, or WAY more durable. Either that or if whatever was inside it was just dumped out if its destroyed that would've been great. I would've loved to use it as protection for my Wraithknight, but the cost of Harlies requisite to use the stratagem to save units inside, plus the massive cost of the Webway Gate itself just doesnt make it viable. I'm better off just taking a Skathatch Wraithknight and I can get my Wraithknight pretty much anywhere I need him to be.

@TheReborn- I wouldnt worry about this codex getting nerfed. The fact that they are an assault army, expensive in points creates a risk/reward that will deter people from using them in high level tourney play where all the nerfing seems to stem from.

[The Reborn]

Hi everyone, thanks for your takes on the new codex. Having read it in more detail now, I'm convinced they can be very strong....but their effectiveness will be situational I think, working better against some builds than others.
The Gate.....hmmm.....I'm changing my mind on this, but I'm not giving up on it.  I bought one, and I'm determined to uncover uses and tactics for it.😁
Thanks again guys.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

but the cost of Harlies requisite to use the stratagem to save units inside, plus the massive cost of the Webway Gate itself just doesn't make it viable.

This has confused me...

When you take a fortification detachment, don't you have to specify the codex it is from. So wouldn't taking the fortification detachment give you access to to their stratagems?

But I do agree, at 60 pts per I would def take 2 of them. At their current cost, I can't justify it to myself... and especially not as I believe 2 are necessary for it to work.

[Blazinghand]

but the cost of Harlies requisite to use the stratagem to save units inside, plus the massive cost of the Webway Gate itself just doesn't make it viable.

This has confused me...

When you take a fortification detachment, don't you have to specify the codex it is from. So wouldn't taking the fortification detachment give you access to to their stratagems?

But I do agree, at 60 pts per I would def take 2 of them. At their current cost, I can't justify it to myself... and especially not as I believe 2 are necessary for it to work.

The Webway Gate doesn't come from a "Codex"-- it simply has a keyword, AELDARI. As a Fort Network detachment with only the AELDARI keyword is not purely HARLEQUINS or ASURYANI or DRUKHARI, it does not unlock any stratagems.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Ok.... I am seeing that a bit...

I am trying to draw the parallel here, and I realized I can't find the rule for what a "Harlequin detachment" is....

I see the rules stating that all detachments must be from the same faction...

Also, am I wrong in thinking that the Fortification detachment is the only way to get one?

[Blazinghand]

Ok.... I am seeing that a bit...

I am trying to draw the parallel here, and I realized I can't find the rule for what a "Harlequin detachment" is....

I see the rules stating that all detachments must be from the same faction...

Also, am I wrong in thinking that the Fortification detachment is the only way to get one?

Harlequins stratagems are only unlocked if you have a detachment in which every unit in the detachment has the HARLEQUINS keyword.

The way to take a Webway Gate is to take a Fortification Network detachment, yes.

[Lord of Winter and War]

Hilariously enough, in the spring faq, webway gates can't be legally taken in a fortification detachment as the only faction keyword they have is Aeldari. I'm sure it'll be addressed in the harlequin faq.

[faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run)]

Ok.... I am seeing that a bit...

I am trying to draw the parallel here, and I realized I can't find the rule for what a "Harlequin detachment" is....

I see the rules stating that all detachments must be from the same faction...

Also, am I wrong in thinking that the Fortification detachment is the only way to get one?

Harlequins stratagems are only unlocked if you have a detachment in which every unit in the detachment has the HARLEQUINS keyword.

I understand that is how it is played - but I was trying to find the rule that stated that and I must be overlooking something really simply somewhere. Any page reference someone can point me to?

[Lord of Winter and War]

Page 68 of the Harlequins codex. Under "abilities".

And page 70 under "stratagems"

[magenb]

As a standalone army they don't have the numbers (w nor model count) and they can't take anything to soak up some of the massive amounts of fire there is in 8th. They also need to be tweaked depending on the foe so not great for tourneys. So to me they still feel like an allied force, and its very fluffy to run them that way.

I like the codex, it is rather fluffy, but I think they have hurt themselves with the rule they have to have a model for a unit to exist. They could have pulled in a bunch of other unit from the lore to fill in some of the gaps.

[Irisado]

Shoehorning Harlequins into an army as allies is often one of the least lore friendly ways in which I've seen them used, so I am very sceptical about the idea that it's within the narrative to field them in that way more often than not.  They are much better off being used as an independent army, from a narrative perspective.

I think that the codex will be able to hold its own.  Harlequins are supposed to be the ultimate glass cannon army, dealing out a lot of damage, but lacking resilience.  I'm happy if this is how they are going to function.

[Cavalier]

@Magenb- I gotta disagree. While they might not have the bodies that say a Dark Eldar force has, they still field a decent amount of bodies which are more elusive and hit harder in combat and shooting. They've got -1 to hit on all their transports, gunships and bikes and thats huge. You also have stratagems to get that -1 to hit at range and in combat, the Shadowseer can dish out additional -1 to hit and even -1 to wound.

On top of that they've got fight twice stratagems, 1st turn assaulters etc. which really make up for the lack of numbers. I actually think they are uniquely suited for dealing with armies like Imperial Guard and Tau because they hurt their ability to make contact with all their guns.

Having played so much Alaitoc and DE with a lot of Venoms, I'm really looking forward to putting Harlies to the test especially against Guard. I'd actually go so far as to say, with a good amount of LOS blocking terrain on the board, Harlies might actually be a favorable match-up against Guard.

Dont get me wrong, they are definitely one of the more challenging armies out there, but I think they have what it takes to hang with the big boys. It'll be fun putting it to the test though. Its all theory for me at this point.

@Irisado- I think you'll be happy to know that the lore has been expanded a bit in regards to the Harlies. The various Masques all have certain agendas they focus on, with very specific allies and enemies. Its actually made the process of choosing my Masque really challenging. I want to do one of the official Masques but they gotta be on friendly terms with elements of my army that I feature regularly like my Corsairs, Y'nnari and Drukhari. For example I'd love to go with Frozen Stars but in the book it describes the incorporation of Y'nnead into the performances of the Harlies. Some depict him as a savior, other a liar but the Frozen Stars depict him as a fool and time-waster. So I decided for the sake of fluff to not go in that direction... as it'd always bug me even if I did a custom Masque.

I really enjoyed reading the book, and have had a lot of fun going back into my 6th + 7th edition books lately making sure my army background is up to snuff and that all my alliances make sense.

[magenb]

Shoehorning Harlequins into an army as allies is often one of the least lore friendly ways in which I've seen them used, so I am very sceptical about the idea that it's within the narrative to field them in that way more often than not.  They are much better off being used as an independent army, from a narrative perspective.

I think that the codex will be able to hold its own.  Harlequins are supposed to be the ultimate glass cannon army, dealing out a lot of damage, but lacking resilience.  I'm happy if this is how they are going to function.

Yeah, you are going to get people just going with them as an allied force because they can pack a big punch, I think most of us saw what happened when they opened armies to be allied in the last few editions lol.

From a Narrative point of view, their codex is heavily mentioning running along side CWE and DE factions, it is very common to see this being done in novels. When you deep dive into the old lore, they have a tone of more units than what we see on the table top today.

@Magenb- I gotta disagree.

Try facing Orks or Nids or any attrition based army, or even think about how you would fight against Harlies as CWE or how would Harlies a high T based army like DE covens. I just think Harlies have an uphill battle.

The codex is still good, I really like the trolljob options they have put into the codex, the fluff is great, love the silent shroud fluff.

[Cavalier]

@Magneb- I actually really like a full on Harlie army against bugs. The build I'm going for is meched up in Starweavers with lots of fusion pistols. As I expand out to around 2k there will be bikes and Voidweavers as well (a good chunk of them I may add). So I'm thinking at least 6 Starweavers and maybe 2 or 3 Voidweavers you are chucking out a TON of shots to clear hordes. Thats more shuriken fire than my standard Craftworld army. With 18 fusion pistols across 6 different you can massacre the big bugs and then get after in combat with Carress and re-roll wounds from the Troupe Masters of which I'll have 3. Factor in all the mortal wound shenanigans, first turn charges from the bikers and I really like my odds against Tyranids.

So as for the Drukhari Covens, same answer Fusion Pistols and Caress, with Troupe Masters giving out re-rolls and then getting after them with loads of shuriken fire. That combo you are typically wounding on 3's re-rolling wounds, re-rolling damage, then assault where you are still re-rolling wounds and you have stratagems to double fight World Eaters style with all the re-rolls still in place.

As for going up against Craftworlds, in my experience the bane of Craftworld armies is fast assault armies and Harlies might be the fastest assault army out there.

As for Orks that could be a tough match-up depending on build. I would think that meched up Orks could be a problem, but hey all armies have tough match-ups. But I'm thinking of Scorpion82's Harlie build where he's got 12 Jetbikes with Haywire and 2 Voidweavers with Haywire... I mean you could cripple such an army Turn 1. Against a Green Tide build I'd actually like my chances. I've got a ton of experience going up against Horde Guard with Celestine that just rushes you all game long, and if you can play keep away and just strafe them for a turn or 2 with Shuriken Cannon fire before pouncing in combat I really like my chances. Especially with Midnight Sorrow, Troupe Masters, a Great Harlequin, War Dancers and the Midnight Chime, where you are fighting with extra attacks, re-rolling wounds, hits of 1 and you are consolidating 6 afterwards. Also you can send your transports and Voidweavers into assault just to force the Orks to fall back and do nothing the next turn. You can do the same with your bikes in the early phases just to slow them down.

Dont get me wrong I dont think Harlies are an easy army, the chance for disaster is there in a big way. They are harder to play then any of the other Eldar armies (except Corsairs  ) I just think they are very, very good. I wouldn't say they are better that Craftworlds or Drukhari but they are right there or not far off.

But I tell you what.... CHALLENGE ACCEPTED! Not only will I get my 1k of Harlie painted by September I'll continue to grow it to 2k and chronicle my journey and specifically seek out those hard match-ups and see if my theories are true. If I crash and burn I'll paint you up a mini of your choice (maximum size being a flyer or wave serpent size vehicle)! If I win I'll strut around the forum like a Great Harlequin lol!

Good discussion Mage... really gets the brain going.