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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #460 on: May 29, 2017, 07:33:56 PM »
All good things for the SMurfs. Hardly a surprise.

I just hope all the new units were play tested as well, SM are looking really rosie right now.

One of the risks of doing all your playtesting with tourney players is that you're probably going to see those players' favorite armies get the best treatment. I'd expect Eldar and Marines to do quite well. I'm guessing others may not be so lucky.

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #461 on: May 29, 2017, 10:36:20 PM »
One of the risks of doing all your playtesting with tourney players is that you're probably going to see those players' favorite armies get the best treatment. I'd expect Eldar and Marines to do quite well. I'm guessing others may not be so lucky.
On the contrary, I would expect Eldar and Marines to be brought down in power level.  I have said this many times over the years, but I am fortunate to having the gaming community I do because some of the top players in Canada are regulars here.  These are guys that have gone down and won major tournaments in North America like the Adepticon Team Tournament.  They have abandoned playing armies like Eldar, Tau, and Marines because it is too easy for them to win.  They don't even think about the game any more and they know exactly how to win.  It just got worse with Ynarri.  Hell, one guy got fed up with it that he brought out a tooled Tyranid list so he would have a challenge at that level of competition.

So when highly competitive players are abandoning the top tier armies because of how easy it is for them to win, I can easily see tournament organizers doing what they can with the play testing to ensure all factions are on the same power level.

If you want proof of the toning down, just look at what they did to grav.  It took a major hit against high toughness / low save units; the units that were the reason this weapon type was spammed so much.
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #462 on: May 30, 2017, 07:11:06 AM »
Yeah if you guys have followed Reece and Frankie... they pretty much despise Eldar as they stand. Despite Reece actually having a extremely cool Eldar footdar army. I know they aren't the only guys playtesting, but it seems to me they had a pretty significant influence.

Plus the guys from Adepticon are well known for their preference for lore based play... so much so that all their narrative and fun events have take precedence over pretty much everything else.

Following Signals from the Frontline, and the whole ITC very closely... I can tell you the guys organizing it have said time, and time again... that broken, OP'd armies HURT tournament play. They say the more casual, the more inclusive, the more people show up and participate. The ITC activley tried to tone down a lot of the crap from 7th ed. which is why its been so phenomenally successful.

If you go and look through the old FAQ, you'll see they downgraded 2++ re-rollables to a 4++, nerfed Destroyer weapons (no remove from play), nerfed invisibility in combat and countless other changes to make the game more balanced.

I remember when the new Eldar book dropped they proposed to the voters restricting scatter lasers to 1 scatter laser for every 3 bikes...

Regardless, these guys know a more balanced game is better for business. Check out their podcast or check the ITC FAQ and its right there. The Adepticon guys and Nova are all ITC so they are all on the same page. Thats just one of the reasons I've been so encouraged about the new edition
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #463 on: May 30, 2017, 08:03:46 AM »
Well, I hope you guys are right. From what I've seen so far, it looks like things are more balanced, but certain faves are getting the usual preferential treatment.

In my own tourney experience (granted, not as impressive), every tourney organizer has strong opinions about what would balance the game, but most of it boils down to just changing who has the edge.

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #464 on: May 30, 2017, 08:23:46 AM »
@Wydrr- I hear you man. The process of how the ITC was formulated was encouraging though... from the standpoint of how much data was gone over and just how in-depth game+army mechanics were scrutinized by the guys running the ITC, and even how people voted. Before any item even made it to the FAQ thousands of people voted to see what issues were even going to be ruled on. After that people voted for a variety of changes (or voted for no changes to be made). If you go back and watch some of those videos it was CRAZY how in-depth it was. Every book from GW + FW, every unit was scruitized heavily.

I remember they even proposed giving Chaos the Fearless USR (which got voted down), just to get them on the table. People voted to give Orks a unique Stompa from one of the Imperial Armor books that was hundreds of points cheaper than the standard Stompa, just to get Orks on the tables.

I say all that, just to lend encouragement to people who don't know about this group of playtesters. They are solid dudes with incredible knowledge of the game and how it plays from casual to hyper competitive.

I myself don't play in tournaments, but I used their FAQ to help before GW produced their own and I was very satisfied with how it helped.

I'm sure their will be issues with this edition, like their are in every edition, but I feel that from what we've seen thus far, and the guys involved in shaping the game, the game is gonna be really solid and perhaps more balanced than we've seen any previous edition.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #465 on: May 30, 2017, 01:13:56 PM »
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #466 on: May 30, 2017, 02:09:11 PM »
Really interesting... Look how cheap those Warriors are even with all that kit! You know one thing I didn't realize when recording the other day.... Kabalites are gonna be able to haul around the Splintercannons and Dark Lances and fire them on the move even if they don't become assault weapons. Thats really handy on more resilient Raiders. Damn I'm getting excited

That Void Raven is still really expensive...  I'm praying its more effective. My brother got me one for my birthday and its one of my favorite models and I'm really happy with how I painted it. I want it to be a beast... Can't wait to see its stats.
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #467 on: May 30, 2017, 03:25:25 PM »
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #468 on: May 30, 2017, 03:31:05 PM »
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

Yeah, I'm largely agreeing with Irisado. I'll have to try both ways out, but the layout of the matched play army lists so far seems needlessly fiddly (so, I gotta add in all the basic wargear the guys have...flip flip...then I need to see who has access to what options...flip flip...now I've got to add a bunch of prime numbers together...). I might be wrong on that, granted, but we'll see.
 
Trying to figure out how many power levels equates to how many points should be interesting. I wonder how comparable it will all be.

Offline murgel

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #469 on: May 30, 2017, 03:55:27 PM »
I agree here as well.
Sure there are programs that will do the calc for you etc.
But honestly the power levels and the variability they offer make them most appealing. Especially for the campaign games most common with my friends.
It simply is great to just pick power and have the options included so you can modify the army to fit the mission and not recalculate it.
Makes more flexible gaming possible.
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Offline Partninja

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #470 on: May 30, 2017, 04:22:53 PM »
My group abandoned tournaments and power gaming lists a while ago. While we don't exactly play super fluffy lists, we're a good mixture of the two. We use less than standard units, because they're fun, but still play objectively for a good game. So 50% fluff/fun, 50% still trying to win.

That said, I still see the power level as really stupid and easily abused. A lot of the very powerful weapon swaps, at no point costs, makes them SUPER powerful and it doesn't even change their power rating. A made up example would be Wraith guard swapping their cannons for scythes - while we don't know exactly how either of these weapons work yet, in current terms scythes are WAY more powerful for quite a bit extra points. With just a power level, they are the same cost of unit...

Power level is simply for quickly throwing together a game - but is not at all balanced IMO


On another note - there are a lot of data sheet leaks out:

It seems infantry units are over all cheaper, while vehicles have gone up in points. I like this. Your army should end up about the same if you used mixed unit types
 

There are still typos even with "Trust us we're the new GW". The Sanguinary Priest didn't have a chalice or narc listed as his base kit, or that he could take them. The Biker priest, had both of these options listed...whomp whomp. Hopefully these were pictures of the production index books.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2017, 05:07:39 PM by Partninja »

Offline magenb

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #471 on: May 30, 2017, 05:55:50 PM »
Really interesting... Look how cheap those Warriors are even with all that kit! You know one thing I didn't realize when recording the other day.... Kabalites are gonna be able to haul around the Splintercannons and Dark Lances and fire them on the move even if they don't become assault weapons. Thats really handy on more resilient Raiders. Damn I'm getting excited

So KB Warriors got a point drop and can now take multiple Heavy weapons in a small unit with multiple special weapons...

Guess that should let DE finally spam anti-tank weapons at least, but if 1 heavy weapon for every 4 models is the thing, then you could get 3 lots of splinter cannon shots from a single venom at range, nasty anti-infantry unit right there.


Offline Dread

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #472 on: May 31, 2017, 01:09:44 AM »
So kinda going backwards a bit, but what do ya'll think the power points games will be, 100, 500, 1000 power points? Today I got to see the GK stuff and want to be prepared for opening night. What should that night be?

By the way, I have actually become excited about everything I've read up to this point, it seems to be the streamline for games 40k has needed. I usually tell people not to wish their life away but, well, I can't wait. I pre preordered the craftworld book today. Wwhew!
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #473 on: May 31, 2017, 03:11:09 AM »
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

Think I'll be building armies as both power points and regular style.
I kinda want to play Open, with Power Points, but using Match Play missions and strategy cards etc... :D

Offline Mr Draken

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #474 on: May 31, 2017, 04:20:01 AM »
It's looking as though power level is going to be my option of choice, assuming that datasheets will be available online.

The flexibility on offer here will, hopefully, appeal to the majority of players.  It is going to make for a different style of 40K, but it's an approach that looks very positive to me.

I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

Think I'll be building armies as both power points and regular style.
I kinda want to play Open, with Power Points, but using Match Play missions and strategy cards etc... :D

They will be available, for purchase in the ebooks. I like the power level option as well. I hope other than tourneys that will be the go to for list building in my group.
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Offline Fenris

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #475 on: May 31, 2017, 05:26:07 AM »
I will only be playing matched play, unless I play with kids or newbies, then the power points seems like a good way to introduce new people to the game.

Those odd points I see complains about is a good sign that, GW for once, actually applied some kind of calculations to it.
If you like even numbers, just take units of even numbers like 5 or 10 models and you will have no trouble getting a 2K point army on the nose.

Why is calculations good you may wonder, well math is a science that is exact, there is no wiggleroom, which makes it a perfect tool for balance.
In addition, it will help when rectifying balance flaws. For example GW realized transports got overcosted, well just reduce the points they used for determine how much each seat in the buss cost.

Also if or when someone cracks that algorithm (or GW reveals it), we can start creating our own units, like in one the old tyranid codex´.

Edit:
I just watched a readalong on youtube, the 280 page rulebook is just filled to the brim with fluff, and then som narrative advanced mission rules. Biggest thing though:
Games of 1K-2K points should use the 6x4 table size, armies below 1K use 4x4 and armies above 2K use 8x4 or bigger. So Great, finally we have an estimate. ;)

Normal(1K-2K) games also has a maximum of three detachments.
This is good news :D
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 06:28:29 AM by Fenris »
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #476 on: May 31, 2017, 07:02:33 AM »
Man the hype is reaching apocalyptic levels. After glancing through some of the leaks... I'm very impressed.

One thing has really hit me... Deepstrike is an ULTRA awesome ability. With the changes to assault and shooting, units like Scourge can now drop in with their lances... without scattering presumambly and do absolute work.

Everything seems just so much more reliable and efficient. It has to be tested in actual games and with full rules in hand... but there was so much randomization in the game before, you had to avoid certain units just for a measure of certainty.

I see tons of units coming back into prominence... especially chaff units, tarpits etc. I know screening units are a huge deal in AoS... thus I see conscripts, Wyches, Storm Guardians etc having a pretty important role. Especially when you have Genestealers assaulting out of reserve (and absolutley shredding face) Termies assaulting out of deepstrike (presumambly). Man I cannot be more excited.

I'm super glad I've got a nice balanced collection and didn't just cheese out with jetbike spam this last edition. The hype tho....
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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #477 on: May 31, 2017, 07:56:49 AM »
I don't think Datasheets will be available online- nothing has been said about that at all, and it was very clear it was happening with AoS before it was released.

My concern is that you will be proved to be correct.  If this does turn out to be the case and the only way to access rules for armies and units is to pay for them, I'm going to continue not to play.
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Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #478 on: May 31, 2017, 01:08:27 PM »
Necrons for today. Also starter box contents and some marine faffle fluff.
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Reanimation Protocols is certainly a thing now.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2017, 01:10:04 PM by The GrimSqueaker »
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Offline Wyddr

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Re: Eighth Edition News
« Reply #479 on: May 31, 2017, 01:39:39 PM »
Reanimation Protocols is certainly a thing now.

 :o

Yeah...that's...ummm...wow.

Gives you a real incentive to wipe the whole unit out now, doesn't it?

Also, the Portal of Exile seems nasty. However, did we notice the Monolith has a BS reduction? Do we think that might transfer across the army?

 


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