Topic: Eighth Edition News

[Wyddr]

Agreed. A lot of these predictions have a huge asterisk. Going off of info we have, though, it is honestly looking like Eldar will be making out comparatively better than Tau.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

But again, we are basing that determination off incomplete information.  It came up earlier, either in this thread or another, about the ramifications of tournament organizers being used to play test the system and help balance.  If anything, it makes me all the more encouraged that they are getting outside input from people that know how to break the game to make it less broken.

So the things from Tau that are being brought down needed it, and the things that are being beefed up need it as well.  I'm sure that things will actually balance out well in the end once we have a complete picture of the rules.

[Fenris]

Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator kills what it is in combat with
Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire. Terminator shoots separate target normally.

I fixed that sequence of events for you.  Like you said, the Terminator and Crisis suit are fighting a MEQ opponent.  There is no way in hell a MEQ is surviving a round of combat against a Terminator.

This whole "sky is falling" attitude of yours is based entirely on missing information.  What we know about combat is that charging units strike first, then you alternate between units, units can voluntarily leave combat in their movement phase, and there is a fixed to hit value for every unit.

That's it.

Do we know exactly how things work out?  Do we know exactly what rules Terminators have?  Do we know how powerful Power Fists are?  Do we know anything of substantial value?

The answer to all of those is a really complicated two letter word.  No.

Maybe you shouldn't have "Turn 1" twice, that's not fixing anything, but that is beside the point.
I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s
But just to prove you wrong on that assumption as well, 3 marines = 1 terminator pointswise, if those 3 marines assault that 1 terminator, they can't all be struck down by the terminators 2 attacks, not a chance since 2<3.
Even so the marines gets to strike first with their 6 attacks killing 0.33 terminators
0.67 terminators strike back with 1,33 attack killing 1.11 marines, it will by all game purposes most probably be a draw.

I also even explicitly included the phrase:

According to what we know so far...

Discussing what we do not know is pointless. Maybe each Attack characteristic will get D6 hits, so an assaulting assault terminator would get 3D6 attack on the charge. But that's pure speculation at this point.

@The GrimSqueaker:
I'm not upset, so yes I would get more upset if Warp Spiders and/or Swooping Hawks got the "Fly" ability, because of several reasons. Fluff, balance & GW lying again.

[volatilegaz]

I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s

Fenris, you're entire argument that Tau get 3 shooting phases is based on them surviving combat, which is pretty big assault "what-if"
Even then, it's not actually 3 shooting phases, because it doesn't happen in a single turn.

I think it could be more accurately stated without the hyperbole that:

If a Tau unit with the Fly Keyword was assaulted and survived, it would be effectively able to shoot 3 times across 2 turns, whereas other units could only shoot once (if you ignore their relatively weak overwatch shots) in the same circumstances (unless they also had some overwatch buffs or the Fly keyword or other as yet unseen rules which could allow additional shooting).

[Irisado]

I'm not upset, so yes I would get more upset if Warp Spiders and/or Swooping Hawks got the "Fly" ability, because of several reasons. Fluff, balance & GW lying again.

How would being given a rule to improve their mobility run contrary to their background?  As the rules are being designed along similar lines to Age of Sigmar, it's highly probable that this rule may be the only rule to grant the level of mobility that all jet pack type units require.  In addition, I'm curious as to how GW has lied.  Would you care to elaborate?

[Wyddr]

Tactical Reserves!

Ooooh, I love it. This is the best one so far. Very excited to see how this all pans out!

[Fenris]

@Irisado:
Fluff:
Warp Spiders and Swooping hawks have nowhere near the same technology that T'au has.
Warp Spiders teleport through the warp, while the swooping hawks use their wings to fly by flapping. T'au crisis suits have jetpacks.
Balance:
Warp Spiders should be able to fend for them selves in combat, not flee. Maybe something to do with morale, because they loose friends in the warp every now and then so they are to some degree used to it. Also as long as they have flickerjump they don't need any more buffs.
Swooping Hawks don't need to get out of combat either, they need a reason to enter combat, and they need to be harder to hit when in the air.
GW lying:
They told us USR will be gone, if "Fly" becomes the new rule for all jump-infantry, it's still an USR.

@volatilegaz:
I actually just added on to what Frankie wrote:

Those that do survive the fusillade to cross the battlefield must withstand the T’au’s other shooting phase, otherwise known as Supporting Fire with overwatch.

Hence being able to shoot at another moment where the basic rules says you can't, can not be that far fetched to call a 3rd shooting phase and AFAIK it will be with no restrictions.

Maybe we should talk about the poor Drukhari instead?
Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Drukhari – Warhammer Community
Wyches will still be very dead unless they can assault from transports.
Edit: I like the new disintegrator cannon though

[Irisado]

Tactical Reserves!

Ooooh, I love it. This is the best one so far. Very excited to see how this all pans out!

A number of those concepts are exciting and will certainly make reserves more dynamic than previously.

@Irisado:
Fluff:
Warp Spiders and Swooping hawks have nowhere near the same technology that T'au has.
Warp Spiders teleport through the warp, while the swooping hawks use their wings to fly by flapping. T'au crisis suits have jetpacks.
Balance:
Warp Spiders should be able to fend for them selves in combat, not flee. Maybe something to do with morale, because they loose friends in the warp every now and then so they are to some degree used to it. Also as long as they have flickerjump they don't need any more buffs.
Swooping Hawks don't need to get out of combat either, they need a reason to enter combat, and they need to be harder to hit when in the air.
GW lying:
They told us USR will be gone, if "Fly" becomes the new rule for all jump-infantry, it's still an USR.

The narrative argument that you're making is not valid because all that's happening is that the rules are being simplified, assuming that all those unit types will have the same rule.  How advanced technology is represented in the rules does not change the narrative in any way.  The technology can remain described differently in the background, yet be implemented in the same or a similar way on the table.  It has been common practice in other sets of rules for years.

Warp Spiders have never been a great unit in close combat.  The Exarch apart, their close assault capability is average at best, leaning more towards poor.  Swooping Hawks have the same issue, except when using grenades on vehicles.  Either way though, it is still unknown how these Eldar units will work, so it's impossible to say whether there are going to balance issues.

It will not be a universal special rule in the sense that you are thinking of.  It will be like Age of Sigmar.  As a result, it's not a lie.  A change of mindset is needed for these rules, as it's the biggest shake up since second to third edition.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Fly is merely what the Tau (I am not using T'au) call it. Swooping Hawks could have a similar skill called Flap You. This will be spelt out on their datasheet. It's not a USR as similar does not mean identical. Warp Spiders could have something along the same lines called Beam Me Up. 

[Wyddr]

Re: Dark Eldar:

I'm really not enjoying these sneak peeks overall, as they seem to be telling us stuff that is either (1) already true or (2) objectively false given what they say next.

So, Incubi are about as effective as they were before and arguably less, given that even basic marines will get a save and they don't automatically strike first. Meh.

Wyches are modestly better, yeah (I'm assuming they can assault from Raiders still), but a stiff breeze in the shooting phase is gonna kill them dead. Maybe they'll be extra fast to compensate?

Stats on the Dark Lance are as-expected. Stats on the Disintegrator are great! Bye-bye terminators!

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator kills what it is in combat with
Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire. Terminator shoots separate target normally.

I fixed that sequence of events for you.  Like you said, the Terminator and Crisis suit are fighting a MEQ opponent.  There is no way in hell a MEQ is surviving a round of combat against a Terminator.

This whole "sky is falling" attitude of yours is based entirely on missing information.  What we know about combat is that charging units strike first, then you alternate between units, units can voluntarily leave combat in their movement phase, and there is a fixed to hit value for every unit.

That's it.

Do we know exactly how things work out?  Do we know exactly what rules Terminators have?  Do we know how powerful Power Fists are?  Do we know anything of substantial value?

The answer to all of those is a really complicated two letter word.  No.

Maybe you shouldn't have "Turn 1" twice, that's not fixing anything, but that is beside the point.

Or that is intentional because the Terminators will kill a single MEQ opponent in close combat in Turn 1.

I am also not getting into a "what if" -discussion with you, since it will lead nowhere.
That's why I left the close combat results out of it, because they are based on "what if"'s
But just to prove you wrong on that assumption as well, 3 marines = 1 terminator pointswise, if those 3 marines assault that 1 terminator, they can't all be struck down by the terminators 2 attacks, not a chance since 2<3.
Even so the marines gets to strike first with their 6 attacks killing 0.33 terminators
0.67 terminators strike back with 1,33 attack killing 1.11 marines, it will by all game purposes most probably be a draw.

Let's just keep moving the goal posts so your point seems more and more valid.  Cause that makes sense.  You didn't mention anything about comparative points, you just said vs a MEQ opponent.  When you are referring to a single model, that would imply a single opponent.

I also even explicitly included the phrase:

According to what we know so far...

Discussing what we do not know is pointless. Maybe each Attack characteristic will get D6 hits, so an assaulting assault terminator would get 3D6 attack on the charge. But that's pure speculation at this point.

And yet, here we are... discussing what we don't know.  And here you are, crying that assault is dead when you don't have all of the information.

USR's are gone in the sense that there is an entire section of the rulebook dedicated to special rules.  Now the rules will be included either with the army special rules or unit specific.  Either way, they aren't universal.  Other factions may have similar rules, but they will be called something else or work another way.

[Fenris]

@GML: First off, stop misquoting me.
Secondly stop putting words in my mouth.
Thirdly you are the one moving the goalposts to try and punch holes in my conclusions.

You arbitrarily mix single and plural, when it suits you.
You actually think several terminators and a single MEQ model was the comparison I did, and not the other way around?

Well your flawed assumpions are the very reason your conclusion got way off target.
I guess you would feel 30 grey knights would have a fair fight with 5 gretchins too?

[The GrimSqueaker]

Vehicles are up with more of the same we'd been expecting:
New Warhammer 40,000: Vehicles – Warhammer Community

[Wyddr]

Vehicles are up with more of the same we'd been expecting:
New Warhammer 40,000: Vehicles – Warhammer Community

The main thing that interests me is how all this is going to balance out vis-a-vis antitank weapons. I think it's clear that lascannons and lance weapons are going to be very important, but I'm really curious to see if the middle-weight AT weapons (Autocannon, Scatter/Multi Lasers, Krak Missiles, Plasma Cannons, Missile Pods) will be worth it any longer.

The A-Barge profile gives me some reason to hope, since the Toughness and Save are low enough for concentrated Autocannon fire to bring it down (as is appropriate). Before this, all the vehicles we'd seen (Space Marine Dread, Gorkanaut) were sporting T7+ and saves of 3+. An autocannon at current strength doing d3 wounds a hit and only a -1 AP would have some trouble scratching the paint there.

[Irisado]

These rules look very encouraging.  It's going to be much simpler to use vehicles now and that stat line for and Annihilation Barge does suggest that some vehicles will still be vulnerable to middle ranking weapons.  I think that these changes are very positive.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

@GML: First off, stop misquoting me.

Every time I have quoted you, I have not changed a single word that you have written.  So every quote has been accurate to what you have written.

Secondly stop putting words in my mouth.

Where?

Thirdly you are the one moving the goalposts to try and punch holes in my conclusions.

You arbitrarily mix single and plural, when it suits you.
You actually think several terminators and a single MEQ model was the comparison I did, and not the other way around?

Ah yes, arbitrarily.  Or it's a typo, because everyone is perfect when writing on the internet.  Let's ignore every time I used the word "Terminator" and instead focus on the one time I used "Terminators."

But let's address this whole moving of goalposts:

Your first statement was this:

On the more positive side though, T'au got a real boost in shooting, now they have 3 shooting phases...

You claim Tau have 3 shooting phases, which would imply that Tau have three phases in which they can shoot in the same turn.  I'll even give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are referring to game turn, not player turn.

Your error is pointed out to not be the case what so ever in that there is no way that the Tau have three shooting phases in a (game) turn.

So you double down:

T'aus 3 shooting phases:
1. T'aus normal shooting phase
2. T'aus improved overwatch
3. T'aus Fly allows them to keep shooting even when assaulted.

T'au won't have any use for pistols, at least not the units with the "Fly" keyword, since they will be shooting with their guns instead.

Here, you make it clear that you are interpreting the wording of Fly from the article to mean that Tau get to fire in the assault phase, which again is shown to be wrong.  You then think that showing the math is going to prove your point, when all it does is reinforce that your initial point about 3 shooting phases is incorrect.

So you try to reassert your point with this:

Here is how the crisis suit shoots:

Turn 1 player 1:
Crisis suit shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Crisis suit fires overwatch. (possibly along with buddies)
Turn 2 player 1:
Crisis suit moves away from combat at fires, again.


Here is how the terminator shoots:
Turn 1 player 1:
Terminator shoots normally.
Turn 1 player 2:
Terminator fires overwatch.
Turn 2 player 1:
Terminator moves away from combat and can't fire, or stays in combat and still can't fire.

As you can see the Terminator and the crisis suit is not fighting eachother in combat, they are both fighting MEQ's, but we can use GEQ or something else, same story.
If the opposing player can't make a Turn 1 assault even better for T'au, just keep on shooting.

Your flopping between a plural use for MEQ, and singular for GEQ, would imply that the plural is due to the fact that you are referring to to separate engagements.  At no point did you clearly state that you are going for an equal valued opponent.  When I point that out, then you bring out the idea that you clearly meant for the engagement to be a 3v1 fight.

What it all comes down to is, quite simply, this:
You stated that the Tau get 3 shooting phases, which is incorrect because they are able to shoot in three separate player turns.  You can throw math out all you want and change how things match up, but in the end you are wrong.

[Partninja]

I wish they would have used a different vehicle, like a Rhino or something more "simple". Barges have shielding that increase their AV currently. Without seeing the whole datasheet this really doesn't say much about the barge.

[Wyddr]

Yeah, agreed--it could still be a lot tougher than it looks. I don't think the purpose was to show us how an A-barge works so much as show a typical profile, though.

Incidentally, I love the idea that running over people (ie "assaulting with vehicles") actually causes damage now. Always thought Tank Shock was needlessly underpowered.

[Lorizael]

Lots of good stuff in today's live Q&A:

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/videos/379597632435221/

[Cavalier]

Really like the idea of the vehicles being dangerous in combat. I'm sure chain snares and the various bladevanes on the Dark Eldar vehicles are gonna be nasty. Really intriguing stuff.

I do wish they'd give a little more info though. The big question of disembarking and assaulting in the same turn has really been on my mind and I'm sure other people's mind as well.

I do think they could sprinkle a little bit more crunch into these articles. All in all though I'm still loving everything they've revealed. The Q&A was super solid and I learned a lot. The info on Drop Pods was pretty surprising, but so was the change to reserves. I like having to have more units on the table even though it'll really hurt the way I play. It'll force more tough defensive units into lists if you want to beta-strike through reserves.