Topic: Eighth Edition News

[Katamari Damacy]

Yep and I expect him to hit stuff on 2+ as well  . That'll teach those puny Primarchs about true Demi Gods 

[Fenris]

Points are as usual, but now they are DLC.
New Warhammer 40,000: Points & Power Levels – Warhammer Community

[Wyddr]

Points are as usual, but now they are DLC.
New Warhammer 40,000: Points & Power Levels – Warhammer Community

Assuming you mean "Downloadable Content" there, how do you figure, given this:

The points for units don’t appear on the datasheet but will be elsewhere in the same book.

The "same book" would seem to indicate the existence of a book. If you're referring to the implied future points realignments that they can release separately, why is that bad? Seems to me that would be terribly helpful to keep the game balanced and counteract abuses.

[Fenris]

@Wyddr: Yes, downloadable content. Please don't force me to go down that route with a wall of text explaining why this is bad in oh so many ways.

Yes, you can buy a book, that will be invalidated within a year. That book better be cheap.

In addition, there will be a bucket full of worms for squabble over which edition to use.
2.1 or 2.2 or maybe 2.17 I can see this go way past the dodo.

Also if you didn't think paying for each tidbit of DLC was bad enough, now you might need to sign up your creditcard, and sign an agreement, or they'll sue you to hell if you even print out a hardcopy of the latest rules for your own personal use.

Even if I wanted to play a pay-to-play & pay-to-win game, there are much better options than a game with half-assed rules, with rules disagreements in every corner, I play 40k to escape from nagging humans, not to get into arguments just for the sake of arguing.
I can do that without any rules just fine.

Why do I say half-assed rules, well the space marines stays at the same amount of points.
That is extremely un-granular (as I assume they won't start using decimals), sure they might round off points to it's closest balance, I can still write a more balanced and fun game myself and probably will. (forging the narrative )

GW's hype about 8th ed being balanced, was obviously a lie.

[Cavalier]

Fenris I really don't know where you are coming from at all. There are going to be points right off the bat, available for everyone from the start- for free. GW has already said this...

Then in the future, when things need to be re-balanced they'll release a Generals Handbook style release which is $25 US. GW has stated this as well in their Q&A.

Not only is this more than half the price of the current codices, it also means a living rules-set which means we means the game will remain good health and with a good semblance of balance.

I really dont know where you are coming from at all with this "half assed rules", pay to play and all the rest of it. They are giving us the rules for free and have had the best  tournament organizers from all around the world, play testing every unit for hundreds of hours. They've posted this at the top of all 3 faction focus articles.

So on your charge of pay to play: The rules are free.

Half-Assed Rules: They've had the best tournament organizers in the world, spend hundreds of hours play testing every unit in the game for months now.

And as for updated points and rules... if the Generals Handbook is any indicator, that book will be be more than half the cost of any of the Codices, and will be a part of a living system which will mean less money spent on books.

Although the cost of the 40k Generals Handbook hasn't been revealed and wont need to be for a good long while we feel out the free rules... all this stuff has been printed/broadcast by GW themselves.

[Wyddr]

Additional: if you are playing 40k and not planning to spend money, you are playing the wrong game. This will be as true in 8th Edition as it has been since the beginning. Every edition. Since forever.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Points are as usual, but now they are DLC.

@Wyddr: Yes, downloadable content. Please don't force me to go down that route with a wall of text explaining why this is bad in oh so many ways.

Yes, you can buy a book, that will be invalidated within a year. That book better be cheap.

Ahahahahahahah...

Oh wait... you're seriously bothered by this?  Calm down there, Chicken Little.

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?

In addition, there will be a bucket full of worms for squabble over which edition to use.
2.1 or 2.2 or maybe 2.17 I can see this go way past the dodo.

This would go right along with all of the current squabbles over which edition to use.  I get into arguments all the time at my LGS about whether we should be playing 5th edition or 7th edition.  Whether the resident Chaos players have to use the most recent codex, or whether they can go back to using the 3.5 codex.   

Also if you didn't think paying for each tidbit of DLC was bad enough, now you might need to sign up your creditcard, and sign an agreement, or they'll sue you to hell if you even print out a hardcopy of the latest rules for your own personal use.

Ummm... what?!?  Where did you get the idea that this might even have the potential of being a thing?  Is it because you slapped the DLC label on how they are going to be releasing the points?

I think something should be made abundantly clear to you, and it may come as a bit of a shock: 

Games-Workshop is in business to make money.  They have every right to charge what ever they want for their product.  Their new management has come leaps and bounds in working with the community and they have made the conscious decision to no longer charge over $120 (cdn) for their rules and instead are releasing them for free. 

If they didn't change their business model, and you opted to continue buying their product to play their game, you would be spending a minimum of $180CDN.  Regardless as to what the cost of the Generals Handbook-esque purchase will be, it will still be exponentially cheaper than the buy in cost the game has now.

[Partninja]

I'm confused about all this talk of paying money. I thought everything was free on day one of release? Will the points system be a separate thing we have to pay for?

Edit - After some investigating into AoS..

Basic rules are free
Army specific stats, abilities etc. are free
$25 general's book contains extra game play mode rules as well as points system for every model and war gear

Is this correct?

[Mr Draken]

Core rules = free.
Army rules = cheap. starting with 5 faction books (marines, imperium, chaos, xenos and possibly elder) these include all data sheets, rules and points for all units. these are WAY CHEAPER than a current codex.
Specific army books down the line.
generals handbook every 12ish months that updates points and keeps balance.
campaign and mission books like gathering storm and warzones still a thing.

Overall, MUCH cheaper than currently.

Also... they have FLAT OUT SAID you can print out the rules, hell... they even said their shops would have limited copies of print outs on the day of launch for people..... Certain people in this thread seem to be living up to the old saying of "haters gunna hate"

[magenb]

The old days it was, rules plus codex, go nuts with models, with a supplement every now and then.

Now, sure core rules and army rules are cheap, nice easy way for new players to join, but what's the catch, because this is a business.

The "haters" are ringing the alarm bells because it is starting to stink like EA in the video game space. There, you need to keep buying stuff to keep in the race. For example, Gathering storm could have been done in a single book, but each one was a high priced short story with rules (hell even all 3 books together is just a short story), if you don't pay that toll you're fielding a sub-optimised army. In the video game space, that attitude kills the player base quicker than any nurgle plague.

You can see where they are coming from, but at the end of the day, I'm hopeful. There has been more play testing than I've ever seen for a new edition, for the first time, every one gets their rules at the same time. They are moving to try and make it easier for new player to get involved and they are doing things to keep existing fans interested. I just wish they would stop drip feeding the rule and just release them already.


@Partninja
Sergeant Thomas Highway would call AoS a cluster f...

Sure the rules look free, try and gather ALL the rules for a race or even all the rules in a single place. You get some which only appear in boxsets, some in the race book, some in the handbook, some in the free rules, some behind paywalls online oh and I'll give you one guess where the best rule are...

[Fenris]

@Cavalier:

Then in the future, when things need to be re-balanced they'll release a Generals Handbook style release which is $25 US. GW has stated this as well in their Q&A.

This is the first red flag for me, GW already knows they are going to have to rebalance.

Not only is this more than half the price of the current codices, it also means a living rules-set which means we means the game will remain good health and with a good semblance of balance.

Good balance is simply not enough. That's why I call it half-assed.
They still use arbitrary pointvalues. (as proven by a space marine stays at XX points) (probably some decree from Adeptus astartes arbitrary arbites )
Also, $25 is not free. While I was not expecting anything of value to be free, it's still not of any real value. If it has no value I won't even pay $0.01 for it.

@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.

@GML:

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?

You pay for a digital version digitally. I prefer paying over a counter, and I prefer knowing what I'm paying for before I pay, not after.
This is partly due to I don't accept refunds digitally, nor do I accept vouchers.

@Partninja & MrDraken: My concerns are I consider the matched points to be the core rules. Not the surrounding fluffcloud as I can forge my own narrative, I don't need to buy a narrative. My meta is already overflooded with everyones narratives.

@Everyone: There is a small shred of hope still, if GW manages to get a good balance between the factions, all that playtesteing and feedback from the TO's may be worth something, but seeing space marines cost XX points as before does not bode well. They needed to do something like:
Space Marines: 100 points
Guardsman: 50 points
Then balance all other factions acording to those referrence points.
-Why not 10/5 points you may wonder?
-Well granularity, otherwise a meltgun would cost 7.4 points or something similar.
Since GW did say all 7th ed codexes will be invalid, there would be no issue in actually raise each models point cost considerably, and still get people to play the latest version of the game due to version creep.

Sure a standard game might have become 10K points, or why not just bump it up to 40k points just for the pun.

[Katamari Damacy]

My only worry regarding "DLC" would be if they did it the same way as in AoS; like splitting factions into more factions aka Sylvaneth/Wood Elves and crap like Iron Jaws/Orks. I certainly wont pay for "Spirit Host", "Aspect Army XY" and "Space Elve Misc" books.

[Wyddr]

@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.

This is the *precise* definition of paying to keep playing. You keep buying models, paints, terrain, and rules to stay current and keep up.

You will either keep doing so or you will quit. That's how all of this works and how it has always worked. Nothing so far advanced by GW or by you counters this claim. You just seem to dislike digital documents and are grouchy that marines are good.

[Grand Master Lomandalis]

Good balance is simply not enough. That's why I call it half-assed.
They still use arbitrary pointvalues. (as proven by a space marine stays at XX points) (probably some decree from Adeptus astartes arbitrary arbites )
Also, $25 is not free. While I was not expecting anything of value to be free, it's still not of any real value. If it has no value I won't even pay $0.01 for it.

all point values are arbitrary if you are not aware of the system they used to come up with the points.

@Wyddr: No I usually don't spend any money during play. I buy models, paint and terrain, even a book every now and then, but I've never payed just to keep playing.

But you've paid to buy books and models which allow you to keep playing.  This game is always going to be pay to play, because you have to pay for the materials to play.  It has since become less pay to play because there are less materials you need to buy.  If you want to complain about pay to play, come down to my local Warhammer store where if you want to do any organized even, you must make a relevant purchase.  I wanted to play in their Shadow War campaign, but my wife bought me the book at an independent retailer, which means I can't play unless I buy a box to assemble a kill team.

That's pay to play.

@GML:

So, if I am understanding you correctly, you would rather they stayed with the current system?  Where they make you pay $60 for a codex, which is just additional rules that allow you to use more content than what is included in the core rules?  Or you can pay a reduced cost and download a digital version.  And then there are supplements like the Gathering Storm and Angels of Death that are purchases that give you additional content to use with your additional content.  How is the current codex system any different then the DLC that you are complaining about?

You pay for a digital version digitally. I prefer paying over a counter, and I prefer knowing what I'm paying for before I pay, not after.
This is partly due to I don't accept refunds digitally, nor do I accept vouchers.

So then go into the store and buy the hard copy.  No one has said you must buy a digital copy.

[The GrimSqueaker]

Chaos Daemons and Damocles are up. Looks like the Tau lost an entire expansion fleet, as one does.

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Daemons – Warhammer Community

[Roboknee77]

I am so happy to see blue and brimstone horrors aren't free, you need reinforcement points to bring them in.

[Wyddr]

Chaos Daemons and Damocles are up. Looks like the Tau lost an entire expansion fleet, as one does.

Warhammer 40,000 Faction Focus: Chaos Daemons – Warhammer Community

I might be crazy, but it seems to me that this is teasing some kind of Chaos Tau. 

I am so happy to see blue and brimstone horrors aren't free, you need reinforcement points to bring them in.

If Pink Horrors are as terrible in the next edition as they are in this edition, I'll be ditching them post haste. If the enticement is that "they all can Smite!" that will be pretty substantially lame for a model that costs as much to field as it does.

On the other hand, if they let Blue or Brimstone Horrors have Smite, I foresee an *awful lot* of those little bastards in the game.

On a side note, about "reinforcements:"

Why? Why would I pay for troops that only get deployed after other troops of mine are killed? That makes very little sense unless I'm getting those troops at a substantial discount. Because if I *am* paying for two units of Pink Horrors and four units of Blue Horrors and four units of Brimstone Horrors, why wouldn't I just deploy them all at once?

I guess what they've said is that you can choose what to spend those points on during the game, which has *some* utility, sure, but it seems to me it would be vastly better just to spend the points on the units at the outset and have them to use the whole game.

[Calamity]

Stratagems are up folks.

[Wyddr]

Stratagems are up folks.

Interesting. I mean, I kinda think the lone re-roll expenditure is a waste *most* of the time (how often is that *one* die roll key, anyway?), with the possible exception of charge distance and psychic tests (assuming it extends to those). The others, as shown, seem interesting, but not particularly powerful or even consistently useful.

If an old-school CAD is packing ~6 command points (3 for being battle forge, 3 for that formation), it will be interesting to see how they scale. If there's 4 and 5 and 6 point Stratagems that give more significant buffs, they might really be worth it.

As it stands, these have the feel of the old Cities of Death or Planetstrike Stratagems, in that they are either situationally useful or small enough to not make a huge difference in gameplay.   

[Fenris]

You just seem to dislike digital documents and are grouchy that marines are good.

I dislike how they will only update the balance digitally, as they can not possibly update the printed versions, without printing new versions and I bet those won't be free.
I also have no idea wether marines are going to be good or bad, but they are the only model we have received a points value for, and it's too low for any increased granularity. GW missed an opportunity here.

@GML

all point values are arbitrary if you are not aware of the system they used to come up with the points.

No, purely mathematically it's not granular enough to not be arbitrary. The statlines do not have any possible lowest common denominator. Heck the number given is even a prime.

I can also still use the models and terrain I already have, as I do not have a habit of destroying them/it after each use. I still use models that are over 20 years old.

@everyone
About the demon summoning, I think it's good what is to be done. Setting aside points for it while allowing to choose what to summon is a powerful tool. It will allow players to tweak their list depending on opposition and even on how the battle is currently going.

I'm not too fond of the stratagems, as it's essentially cheating and adds another layer of random luck to the game. Sure it might be able to be tactically useful, but it's essentially another version of rolling for warlord traits, psychic powers etc. And I really hope these random buffs would be gone. If there are more than 3 remembering all of them, or just having to weigh when to use them will be another time consumer.

Furthermore how about blocking the other player to use their stratagems as a stratagem or using those re-rolls for rules disputes, that could get really silly fast.
I guess one could just say, lets play with 3CP lists, but neither player gets to use any of them.