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Offline - Aegis -

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Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« on: December 13, 2006, 05:33:54 AM »
HQ: Farseer (1) w/Jetbike, Runes of Witnessing, Fortune (+125 pts.)
       Warlocks (5) w/Jetbikes, Enhance (1), Embolden (1) (+245 pts.)
HQ: Farseer (1) w/Doom (+80 pts.)

Elite: Howling Banshees (8) w/Exarch w/Executioner (+166 pts.)
         Waveserpent w/Shuricannon, Stones, Vectored Engines (+130)
Elite: Fire Dragons (5) (+75 pts.)

Troop: Guardian Jetbikes (6) w/2 shuricannons (+152 pts.)
           Warlock w/Embolden (+50 pts.)
Troop: Guardian Jetbikes (6) w/2 shuricannons (+152 pts.)
           Warlock w/Embolden (+50 pts.)
Troop: Dire Avengers (9) w/Exarch (Diresword and Pistol, Bladestorm) (+157 pts.)
           Waveserpent w/Shuricannon, Stones (+110 pts.)

Fast: Warp Spiders (8) (+176 pts.)
Fast: Warp Spiders (4) w/ Exarch (Twin Spinners, Surprise Assault) (+137)

Heavy: Falcon w/Twin Shuricannons, Vectored Engines, Stones, Holofields (+195 pts.)

Total: 2000 points (450 HQ, 371 Elites, 671 Troops, 313 Fast, 195 Heavy)
58 models
3 vehicles

The Thinking Behind the List



Deployment notes: The Doom Farseer deploys in the wave serpent with the Howling Banshees. The Fire Dragons are in the Falcon. The Surprise Spiders start off the table, ready to deep strike.

Typical Opponents: Tau, Space Marines (space wolves and blood angels), Orks (speedfreaks), Eldar (Iyanden style)

Gameplay notes: The seer council of doom is your friend. I've been branded as a wierdo before for the extravagant jetbike HQ, but let me say right off that it's worth every point. It's how I've played my HQ since early last year, so I only celebrated when each witchbike warlock got 6 points cheaper in the new codex. This unit is superior to most fire magnets in that it's also a fire sponge; it doesn't just draw fire, it absorbs it forever. It's offensive power in close combat is kind of situational, but you can also guarentee that whatever they're fighting will be tied up for a very long time. Against Tau, it's the unit that can run into the middle of no-man's-land and assault after surviving 2000 pts. worth of firepower. Against Orks, it's the counter-charge unit from hell. Against Marines, it's a raider of Land Raiders and an invincible fire sponge.

Terrain is used to block line of sight for as long as possible. Jetbikes peek out and take shots with the cannons when they're near enough, but the return behind cover each turn. When he gets in range, the doom farseer starts throwing hate at a particular squad for the jetbikes to pepper. Only when I can bring most of my guns to bear at once do I spring from my cover, and when I do so, I do so. All three tanks appear at once, creating target priority issues. If they can, Dire Avengers hop out and bladestorm their target. Warp Spiders do their thing. Jetbikes open up with shuricannons and shuricats. HQ assaults. Banshees appear, ready to assault anything in reach next turn. The tanks unload on appropriate targets. Usually the deepstriking warp spiders have already appeared by now and given their lives to kill the most troublesome tank on the board. Firedragons now kill the second most troublesome tank.

In mission games, I quickly move to a point ahead of the objective(s) and force the enemy to go through me if he wants to win. In the last turn or two, I maneuver myself into the objective zone(s) and take the prize. In "kill 'em all" games, I move my units slowly up to the most fortified position on the field, trying not to move much faster than my opponent if I can help it. Once entrenched, assault distance or line of sight forces them to come to me to kill me. At this point, psychologically, my army isn't associated with the absolutely blinding speed it's capable of, so even if the distances are known, it's still a surprise when I ambush the opposing force on my terms once it foolishly gets close enough. It sounds like it shouldn't work against a seasoned vet, but it does.

So here's the army list and my general gameplay strategy. Kind of posted it for two reasons: (1) inspire people who don't really know what they want out of the eldar codex, (2) get suggestions for improvements from the great tacticians at EldarOnline. This is only an adaptation of my playing style to the new codex; in the old edition I used to have a couple of Swooping Hawk EDS squads where I have warp spiders now, and the jetbikes were guardian flamer squads in Wave Serpents. I was a big "jump you all at once" assault army, and maybe there's a better way to adapt that than what I have here.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 05:36:49 AM by - Aegis - »
Victories: ∞
Draws: 1
Losses: -24

Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2006, 11:58:44 AM »
Consider swapping runes of witnessing for runes of warding - much more useful; much less dangerous.
Consider exchanging 1 squad of Warp Spiders for Shining Spears with Withdraw.
Consider destructor for some warlocks - will be very useful against certain enemies.

Other than that, pretty good - interesting philosophy.  CTM would have made it much happier.

Offline frozenleavesandstuff

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2006, 12:38:08 PM »
I think you should turn those two farseers into one eldrad, d3+1 redeploy is really, really, really useful (not to mention everything else about him, which is also very good)

the jetbike farseer isnt so integral to the jetbike squad, you could easily run the warlocks without an accompanying farseer with similar results.

if youre using doom then mirrorblades>executioner

your army is really going for broke on anti troop and it just doesnt seem necessary (admittedly I don't know your opponents)

eldrad would help this somewhat with storm but I really think 2 squads of spiders is over doing it

I know you love your warlocks, I just don't know why, give them all spears and you might make me a believer, but currently they just seem like a unit with a big "IGNORE ME, MY POINT COST IS FOR SURVIVABILITY, NOT OUTPUT" sign on them. I mean seriously, worst case scenario for me ignoring that unit is they charge one of the shootier squads in my army and hold them in combat for a few turns, recap: your 245 point unit(without the farseer) just held my 100-150 point unit in combat for a few turns. with spears the unit will scratch out the original sign and get a new one that says "KILL ME NOW OR YOUR TANKS WILL DIE, FOLLOWED BY US TYING A 100-150 POINT UNIT IN COMBAT FOR A FEW TURNS MAHAHA!"
another option, already mentioned is destructor, now you can believe this is situational but if you have a doomseer on the table I can't think of an army who can laugh off 4 s5 flamers with wound reroll. even those damn astartes will lose a bunch of guys.


summary:
eldrad is cool for redeploying your wind serpents when someone decides to infiltrate a scout missle launcher in your face
eldrad will turn every one of your units into a possible tank killer

Warlocks are cool but need some more bite (preferably spear chucking, flame throwing bite)

Warp spiders are fun, crack shot on a dragon flamexarch is fun also.

Offline Atomic Rooster

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2006, 02:04:20 PM »
Relying on assault and close ranged weapons to knock out vehicles is dangerous unless you have some numbers to back up an infantry counter charge.  i.e. another squad of banshees or scorps or harlies would be helpful.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 02:08:08 PM by Atomic Rooster »
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Offline FarseerFaris

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2006, 03:24:23 PM »
Quote
I think you should turn those two farseers into one eldrad, d3+1 redeploy is really, really, really useful (not to mention everything else about him, which is also very good)
Looking at his list Eldrad would only slow him down.

Quote
the jetbike farseer isnt so integral to the jetbike squad, you could easily run the warlocks without an accompanying farseer with similar results.
Except he IS the most integral part making them go from making 67% to 89% of their saves, or from 50% to 75% invulnerable saves.

Quote
I know you love your warlocks, I just don't know why, give them all spears and you might make me a believer, but currently they just seem like a unit with a big "IGNORE ME, MY POINT COST IS FOR SURVIVABILITY, NOT OUTPUT" sign on them. I mean seriously, worst case scenario for me ignoring that unit is they charge one of the shootier squads in my army and hold them in combat for a few turns, recap: your 245 point unit(without the farseer) just held my 100-150 point unit in combat for a few turns. with spears the unit will scratch out the original sign and get a new one that says "KILL ME NOW OR YOUR TANKS WILL DIE, FOLLOWED BY US TYING A 100-150 POINT UNIT IN COMBAT FOR A FEW TURNS MAHAHA!"
18" assault range + ability to fly over troops means they get to choose who they charge when they want to.
18 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on two's will RAPE horde armies, and still put the hurt on marines 3-4 marines/turn and it's highly unlikely that any of his warlocks will die in return.
1 dead land raider = points back, they can easily kill 1 vehicle/turn

Anyway as for the rest of your list the only thing that I change for sure is adding an exarch with flamer/crackshot to your dragons for versatality.  I'm still iffy on guardian jetbikes though they are a lot better now I'm still undecided wether I like them or not.
Looks like a fun list to try though at 2000 points you will almost always be outnumbered.
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Offline Lascidel

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2006, 07:20:35 PM »
All warlocks are now required to take a power (p.27). Hello more points in an already expensive unit.
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Offline Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2006, 09:36:33 PM »
Page 60 of the 4th Edition Eldar Codex states that Warlocks may take up to 1 Power. 

Edit: Page 27 states the same thing.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2006, 09:37:43 PM by Mr.Peanut »
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Offline Gutstikk

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2006, 07:56:37 AM »
yep, warlocks do not have to take a power - only farseers.

Offline frozenleavesandstuff

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2006, 05:31:06 PM »
Quote
18" assault range + ability to fly over troops means they get to choose who they charge when they want to.
18 attacks that hit on 3's and wound on two's will RAPE horde armies, and still put the hurt on marines 3-4 marines/turn and it's highly unlikely that any of his warlocks will die in return.
1 dead land raider = points back, they can easily kill 1 vehicle/turn

Anyway as for the rest of your list the only thing that I change for sure is adding an exarch with flamer/crackshot to your dragons for versatality.  I'm still iffy on guardian jetbikes though they are a lot better now I'm still undecided wether I like them or not.
Looks like a fun list to try though at 2000 points you will almost always be outnumbered.

all this does not even come close to being worth 370 points!
even if he kills 4 marines every turn he's still only looking at 360+gear, and he will not kill 4 marines a turn, he MIGHT on the charge, if he's lucky, but after than he's down to 2 a turn.

for 370 points he could have 2 decked prisms and reinforce his other squads, 2 prisms would easily outclass the warlocks both vs marines and horde.

Offline FarseerFaris

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2006, 12:52:24 AM »
Quote
he will not kill 4 marines a turn, he MIGHT on the charge, if he's lucky, but after than he's down to 2 a turn.

Ahhh yes I meant on the charge because with an 18" assault range your almost guaranteed to get the charge which means 10 wounds or 3.33 dead marines.  I didn't include their shuriken catapults however which are 3+ rerollable (2+ for farseer) which more than make up those extra kills vs. marines(6 hits/dead marine)

Quote
all this does not even come close to being worth 370 points!

Sure it does, your paying 370 points for an incredibly versatile, fast, powerful, and resilient unit that is a threat to almost everything on the tabletop!
1 farseer + 5 warlocks:
Can charge anything 2nd turn(6" deployment, 24" turbo boost 1st turn, 18" charge 2nd)
Harder to kill than any other unit in 40k - 1 in 9 wounds beat their amour save with fortune and turbo boost, thats 72 wounds also known as:
216 bolter shots
216 pulse rifle shots
112+ lascannon shots at BS4 (My math assumed that all shots wounded)
144+ BS 3 Lascannons (again assuming all shots wound)
432 lasgun shots....

And assuming one can get enough casualties on them to force a leadership test to fall back they are going to pass with their Leadership 10 rerollable.

Quote
for 370 points he could have 2 decked prisms and reinforce his other squads, 2 prisms would easily outclass the warlocks both vs marines and horde.

Easily outclass huh?  Maybe if they let your fire prisms shoot them every turn - 1 glance is all it takes to stop a prism from shooting that turn - A single BS 4 lascannon has a 45% chance to glance a prism. (2/3 chance to hit, 2/3 chance to glance).
The prism isn't really a comparable unit anyway - your comparing a tank to infantry.  Yes it's gun can do massive damage, it also has a 33% chance to do nothing(unless combining beams) and any opponent with half a brain is going to protect his troops from your prism by using cover.  The only thing prisms have on warlocks vs. horde is range, Destructor auto hits and negates cover saves - against hordes that means 2+ to kill anything under the template but the warlocks also have assault potential which in my opinion means they are better - Picture 2 large units of T3 5+ save 1 in front of the other, warlocks fly right into the first squads face and unleash destructor.  ALL models under template weapons are hit which means they can effectively massacre both squads in one volley and then charge any survivors.

Don't hate on the mounted council, they are one of the strongest eldar units but also require skill to use to maximum efficiency.
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Offline - Aegis -

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Re: Mobile 2K list led by an unpopular HQ choice...
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2006, 02:00:27 AM »
The HQ unit is actually a pretty big backbone force of the army. Sure, I'm almost always outnumbered, but if you leave that squad alone it will put the hurt on. Any tank it assaults is dead. Any unit it assaults is eventually dead. If you don't want to leave the squad alone, it takes firepower. Lots and lots of concentrated firepower.

If my army were to be likened to a chess set, the mounted council would be the queen. It's capable of a great deal of hurt, and at the very least, a great deal of worry.

The squad's only weakness is power armor, but that's a weakness for my entire army. Which brings me to a point: frozen leaves is right, the list is kinda weak to the 3+ save. That's why I'm such a "bring the force to bear at once" army. I have undeniable short range power, and for it to be most effective, it needs to be used with precision and focus.

Against Tau, the list is ten different kinds of murder. It's use is to assault the closest, most expensive, or most inconvenient unit they can catch up with. You can't shoot through close combat, and I use the mounted council (or sometimes just a regular jetbike squad) to block line of sight down choice firelanes, allowing me to define the battlefield to suit my needs. Any combat they get involved in is rarely over before two or three rounds is up, so the terrain is there for a while. Usually, once the mounted HQ gets into combat with Tau, the game is over. I control the board.

Against Orks, it's a maximum power counterstike unit capable of standing it's ground against 20 boyz with a nob and a warboss. Tested and proven. Given that I only play against speedfreaks, which rarely come in mobs of greater than 10, they can destroy any sqaud that comes too close to troubling me.

For Iyanden, they assault Wraithlords and Wraithguard. It's scary how easy these units crumble against a 2+ wounding unit.

Space Marines are different. For space marines, the use of the mounted council changes according to the need. Sometimes, they are the best tank hunters in the galaxy. Sometimes, they are the key to tying up that devastator squad before I park my tanks in their firing lane. Sometimes, they are the most expensive and effective speedbump available in game. This last use is the most dangerous, but sometimes the most effective.

The HQ charges Marine Unit X, killing about 5 after the shooting and assault phase, losing none. When a space marine player catches up to a 370 point mounted eldar unit, they want to kill it. They want to kill it bad. A close combat marine player who's been unable to catch anything in assault all game is surprisingly vengeful on the first thing within pummelling range. And then they find that they can't kill it, not with one squad. Nine times out of ten, they will back up the original assault squad with another instead of being content to have tied up a unit of greater value. Sometimes, several squads will engage in the combat as back up.

Soon, there is a superior chunk of the opponent's infantry wailing on the council, and they die after 1-2 turns, having taken out a few additional marines by that time.

And 1600 points of eldar are waiting to punish the survivors, arranged in a neat semicircle. It's been done, folks.

The biggest or most dangerous squad is Doomed. There's a Space Wolves troop unit that can come in blocks of 20, that's a good example for a target. Bladestorming Dire Avengers knock out 5 marines, then assault for 2 more. Two squads of jetbikes knock out 2-3 apiece. Banshees assault; Versus normal marines, banshees knock out 6-7, versus doomed marines, they knock out an easy 10-11. Warp Spiders, 3 marines. Wave Serpents, 2 marines. Falcon has better things to shoot at, but for giggles, 2 marines. Fire Dragons, 3 marines.

I mean, this is all assuming that I've managed to reach the front lines and set this up unmolested, but if even part of the forces available come to bear, it adds up. Avengers, Banshees, and Jetbikes are all pretty reliable for this. If movement and line of sight is handled well, they will all be ready.

On another topic, thanks for all the suggestions sofar. I'm unsure about the mirrorswords on the exarch, because I feel like having a S5 powerweapon in the squad lets me do additional things I couldn't otherwise be capable of.

I agree that destructor would be a good addition to some of the warlocks. The ones attached to the jetbike squad need their embolden, however. Those units are just too costly to go running after they take a couple of casualties from fire. I added the warlocks when I realized my jetbikes were folding under very small amounts of fire with most of their strength (the shuricannons) still attached.

I agree that it would be great to have a squad of shining spears. I may fit them in place of the squad of 8 spiders, and leech points out from elsewhere as well. It would definitely fit my old instassault battle plan better if I had more fast power-charging assault squads. For the same reason, I'm considering a squad of harlequins, but I'm not sure if they would be able to keep up, and the falcon only has room for the dragons (which I think are much more necessary than harlies. My list only has 2 or 3 options to blow up heavier tanks).

I got to thinking about using eldrad, but I tend to play on pretty big boards (8x6 feet) against fairly fast armies (mobile tau, speedfreaks, 13 company) so deployment isn't that big of a factor. That's really the only thing he's got going for him in my army. The farseers I have do everything I need them to do better than Eldrad could do it.
Victories: ∞
Draws: 1
Losses: -24

 


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