Topic: Phoenix Rising CWE Rules discussion

[magenb]

Soo, heaps of people doing book reviews, so its not hard to find the rules now.

I think these are the pick of the litter.


Howling Banshee Exarch Power - Disarming Strike - reducing the number of attacks is better than just being harder to hit.

Fire Dragon Exarch Power - Swift Step - the extra move distance will help to get within half range.

Dire Avengers Exarch Power - Avenging Strikes - Your going to take loses anyway.
Dark Reapers Exarch Power - Rapid Shot
Swooping Hawks Exarch Power - Herald of Victory - Heald is still the best option for freaky lists.

Striking Scorpions Exarch Power - Withdrawal - Situational, but I would be willing to give this a go, being able to fall back in the enemies turn could be awesome.

Shining Spears Exarch Power - Skilled Rider/Withdraw - I think the improved invul would be the way to go, but that might just be my bad rolling - Withdrawl could be interesting as well.

Crimson Hunter Exarch Power - Hawkeye - better chance of hitting.

Warp Spider Exarch Power - Whim of Deceit - this could be devastating especially if you run multiple units.


Craftworld Attributes Combo's.
Most of the attributes are meh, as in, I would rather run Alaitoc, Ulthwe, or Iyanden, but the following combo's could tempt me.


Webway strike for each detachment combined with -1 AP for shuriken weapons.
Use this to get multiple GD bombs off, for less CP spend.

or

-1 AP for shuriken weapons and ignore cover. I think this is the better all round option.




So what in the new rules tickles your fancy?

[Partninja]

My opinion:

Banshees - Meh still not taking them. They're a confused unit IMO. I'm not interested in defensive powers when I need them to do more damage period

Avengers - I would run bladestorm for the additional hits. Again, I want them to do more damage. An Avenger shrine list using some of the new shuriken centered craftworld traits could be fun.

Dragons - Meh still not using them. Easier to use AT can be found elsewhere.

Scorpions - Better mandiblasters is really intriguing. Withdraw is useful. Still a tough call since I'd rather they could infiltrate like rangers not deepstrike.

Spiders - being able to deepstrike turn one is very appealing to me. Windriders usually take their place for me though.

Hawks - better haywire is appealing but I'd probably still leave mine on the shelf.

Shining Spears - better invul hands down. Getting hit and run back is quite useful too. If they're in an Alaitoc list of probably opt for hit and run.

Crimson Hunter - better hit chance is obvious choice.

Reapers - extra shot or more consistent tempest. Depends on which load out he's using.

Sadly Alaitoc is still best all around. Even in my initial list building trying to maximise the buffed aspect units Alaitoc offered the best bonus...

I do want to play test some shuriken spam lists playing with the extra range, better AP, and further movement on things with fly. Windriders and Vypers would be stupid fast and be able to reach most things. Play to the objective and keep firing lots of shuriken as you drive by and sit on objectives.

[magenb]

Yeah, it hasn't done much for some of our medicore units, so I was looking at it from the perspective of, if I was going to take them, what woudl I run

DA: Bladestorm vs avenging.
I suck at rolling 6s, so I didn't think about it, but time to crunch some number

10 Man squad with a dual cat Exarch vs T4 SV 3+
Original: ~3.2 unsaved wounds (15.33 hits, 7.6 Wounds (1.27 are AP3).
Bladestorm: ~3.7 unsaved wounds (17.8 hits, 8.94 Wounds (1.4 are AP3)
Avenging after losing 1 aspect: ~4.6 unsaved (16.66 hits, 11 wounds (1.8 are ap3)

When you drop down to a 7 man (inc exarch) squad, you get a similar damage output to bladestorm.

I do want to play test some shuriken spam lists playing with the extra range, better AP, and further movement on things with fly. Windriders and Vypers would be stupid fast and be able to reach most things. Play to the objective and keep firing lots of shuriken as you drive by and sit on objectives.

I was excited by the extra range, but its a not really that much extra, I was really disappointed as I thought it would be the same as the space marine increase. If you want the extra range, I would pair it up with ignore cover, as the AP bonus is range restricted.

[Fenris]

Fire Dragons - swift step because you need every inch you can get.

Dire Avengers - Shredding fire along with 2 ASC it's nice. Avenging strike is intresting but relying on loosing models is not a good plan, but would be great with mobile fighters.

Dark Reapers - Rapid shot, great for antitank, character sniping is nice but psykers do it better.

Swooping hawks - Swooping barrage

Striking scorpions - Now it gets intresting, alaitoc stalkers or withdrawl, I think withdrawl as that allows another round of shuriken and mandiblasting.

Howling Banshees - Disarming strike

Shining Spears - Withdraw is very helpful for grabbing objectives in your opponents turn and also good if you did not kill off a melee monster.

Crimson hunters - Eye of cain

Warp Spiders - Withdraw, saves a lot of CP spent on feigned retreat. Spiders lair is an interesting one though it's just too situational.

Crushing orb is a nice power to have combined with mind War.
Impaired senses would be neat to have on the hemlock.

[Blazinghand]

For all of 8e I've been missing out on Exarch Powers, and it's good to see them return. It might be time to dust off the old "20 Dire Avengers and Asurmen" list!

[Partninja]

Yeah, it hasn't done much for some of our medicore units, so I was looking at it from the perspective of, if I was going to take them, what woudl I run

DA: Bladestorm vs avenging.
I suck at rolling 6s, so I didn't think about it, but time to crunch some number

10 Man squad with a dual cat Exarch vs T4 SV 3+
Original: ~3.2 unsaved wounds (15.33 hits, 7.6 Wounds (1.27 are AP3).
Bladestorm: ~3.7 unsaved wounds (17.8 hits, 8.94 Wounds (1.4 are AP3)
Avenging after losing 1 aspect: ~4.6 unsaved (16.66 hits, 11 wounds (1.8 are ap3)

When you drop down to a 7 man (inc exarch) squad, you get a similar damage output to bladestorm.

I do want to play test some shuriken spam lists playing with the extra range, better AP, and further movement on things with fly. Windriders and Vypers would be stupid fast and be able to reach most things. Play to the objective and keep firing lots of shuriken as you drive by and sit on objectives.

I was excited by the extra range, but its a not really that much extra, I was really disappointed as I thought it would be the same as the space marine increase. If you want the extra range, I would pair it up with ignore cover, as the AP bonus is range restricted.

Curious how the math looks when compared to an Avenger Exarch with two catapults and the constant rend. Also, how does two 5-man squads with the same load out compare to a 10-man squad with the other options.

Having extra range and the better AP aren't always counter productive. It gives you the options to reach something just normally out of range (happens to me all the time) and do more damage on turn 2+ when everything ends up getting in your face. Ideally you'd have multiple detachments with the right bonuses for the right units. You're right about ignoring cover but would depend on the types of terrain your meta has. The shops have mostly LoS blocking stuff. My friends and I have mostly "ruins".

[magenb]

Curious how the math looks when compared to an Avenger Exarch with two catapults and the constant rend. Also, how does two 5-man squads with the same load out compare to a 10-man squad with the other options.

gah I should have saved the file, since you have to lose 1 aspect from each squad I assumed 2 deaths in the 10 man squad.

Bladestorm is probably the better option, its fairly rare that I only lose 1-2 DA's from a given turn of shooting, so having the bonus from the start makes sense.

    Original    Avenging   
    2x5     10    2x5    10
No Bonus 3.6   | 3.2   | 4.6   |4.2
-1    4.8   | 4.2   | 6.1   |5.5


FYI, same number of points (slightly less points) as 2x5DA squad into GD squad with Shuriken cannon
    GD
No Bonus 4.4
-1    5.9

Having extra range and the better AP aren't always counter productive.

Yeah it is fairly common that a couple just out of range lol, but it would have been a harder choice if it was the same as the marines range bonus. 



EDIT: hmm conflicting video reviews of the range rule, seems the range increase might be longer Seems like we might be able to keep Vypers and windriders out of small arms fire range.. hmm extra range + ignore cover... with a detachment of GD's -1 and ignore cover..

[Fenris]

I've been glossing through the new craftworld traits and I think I have found my favorite. Superior shuriken.
This will let my guardian defenders to be in range turn 1 without a transport unless they roll a '1' on the advance roll.

Combine this with expert crafters, which reduces the need for Guide & Doom and Autarch, which lets the psychers focus on racking up MW's (Smite, Mind War, Executioner) seer, then a warlock with (Crushing orb, Quicken), hemlock with (Impaired senses + Jinx).

Sure the fire dragons and Wraiths still have short range, but almost not being outranged by bolters is HUGE.
Characters pistols with longer range just to finish off that 1 straggler that simply won't die is not bad either.

[Partninja]

I'm really liking all the shuriken focused ones. I also like the combination of the wraithguard focused trait with the cover save.

One thing I've noticed. These new traits seem to be forcing me into running multiple detachments with different traits in order for my army to get the best use of them.