Topic: ''Fixing'' Lictors?

[ShieldGeneratorFtw]

I myself would either make them subject to the normal rules similar to Genestealers when out of synapse range, or make them synapse creatures. I'd also decrease their cost by 10 points and give them an upgrade which lets you re-roll the scatter dice for deep striking, as well as improving their cover/armour save rules by +1, and improving their Armour Penetration by an additional D3 for 15 points. I'd also give them an additional ST to their current Bio-Weaponry.

That should about do it

[Lonewolf]

Well i think reducing their pointcost by 10 or giving them an additional wound, would solve the problem. An attack more also wouldnt hurt.

[YuenglingDragon]

I don't think a stat change will happen.  Extra wounds are very unlikely since that would begin to put them on par with MC's.

A point reduction (down to 50 or so) or making their deepstrike rules more like the Callidus Assassin might make them playable.

[Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown]

More return for the whole "stealth" thing would be nice. Making it harder to hit them in combat would go a long way to keeping them alive. A point cost reduction is really the most crucial thing though. Lictors aren't exactly bad, just not brilliant and nowhere near cost effective

[Benandorf]

Halve the points, and they'd be "fixed".

[Madmonkey24]

Not having them crap out and end up lurking half the time would be nice, so functioning like Genestealers would be cool. But honestly, Lictors cost the same as a lot of heroes, so they should either be freaking ripped, or cost less.

[ShieldGeneratorFtw]

I guess we've reached a conclusion. Give them another ST Bio-Weapon, reduce their points cost by 30 points, make them work without Synapse. In addition, you can't see them unless you roll 4+ on a D6 when targeting it for shooting or assaulting. Any shooting or attacking at the Lictor suffers a -1 To Hit penalty. When using the Hit-and-Run, any enemy models in the line take a single automatic hit from the Lictor. Non-walker/skimmer vehicles cannot target it at all due to their slowness, but can otherwise hit it indirectly.

You can take 1-6 lictors, counting as a single elite choice (they retain their other rules).

I can't say they'd be overpowered. They'd just be good and actually compete with the other Elite choices, as well as truly sowing confusion and terror. Let's hope GW reads it and decides to implement quick fixes!

[XCrusaderguy01]

I guess we've reached a conclusion. Give them another ST Bio-Weapon, reduce their points cost by 30 points, make them work without Synapse. In addition, you can't see them unless you roll 4+ on a D6 when targeting it for shooting or assaulting. Any shooting or attacking at the Lictor suffers a -1 To Hit penalty. When using the Hit-and-Run, any enemy models in the line take a single automatic hit from the Lictor. Non-walker/skimmer vehicles cannot target it at all due to their slowness, but can otherwise hit it indirectly.

You can take 1-6 lictors, counting as a single elite choice (they retain their other rules).

Adding tons of special case modifiers and rules for one specific model is a great way to overcomplicate the game over time, especially if it become the norm for "fixing" units. The Universal Special Rules exist so that even special units only need a few clarifications on their abilities. The lictor already has a fair few paragraphs devoted to its special characteristics already, no need to muddy the waters further!

I would say either boost its stats, make armor save invulnerable (like a dodge save that many other units have), give it more attacks, relax its deep strike requirements, lower its cost, etc. Anything that will not make it a unit with more special rules than it needs. Also, while its not an awesome unit that should always be taken, they do have their place sometimes. Surprising that out-of-the-way guard heavy weapons team is priceless.  :)That said, a lot of times its difficult to actually find a good target like this, which is likely the only way the lictor will make back his points and or notably assist in covering some other part of the army (because points aren't the only thing that matters). A lot of times, any terrain he would consider useful to show up in is full of enemies by the time he is able to be placed, leaving only relatively useless pieces of terrain on the nid board side for him to use.

TBH I'm not really sure why he scatters at all. They'd be much scarier if they could choose any terrain piece as normal, but could be placed anywhere there's room including BTB contact with the enemy. 

I can't say they'd be overpowered. They'd just be good and actually compete with the other Elite choices, as well as truly sowing confusion and terror. Let's hope GW reads it and decides to implement quick fixes!

first of all, I don't think its a good idea to make everything comparable. Lictors are specialists and should remain such. There's no way they will ever compete with a dakkafex in a main battle role, and they shouldn't! They should be made effective in their given role, even if that role is limited. As it stands, they are lacking even in this.

GW isn't reading, and even if they were, there isn't going to be a fix.  If your friends want to, houserule something for fun. I just may with a friend of mine who's lictor sees little action.

[ShieldGeneratorFtw]

You're right. 3+ Invulnerable ''dodge'' save (it deserves a 3+), another ST, drop their points cost to half and take away the scattering of dice. They can be placed in BTB contact with the enemy when deep striking. Give them the ''independant brood'' rule or w.e it was so that they aren't that dependant on Synapse. Toss another wound onto them, and I think we've come far in the house rule department

I completely agree on the specialising departmen. Generalising units is probably the best way to make the units boring, coupled with having little to no option on how to equip them. And as it is now, can you tell me that you'd want a Lictor over a pair of Raveners and mean it? :/

[XCrusaderguy01]

You're right. 3+ Invulnerable ''dodge'' save (it deserves a 3+), another ST, drop their points cost to half and take away the scattering of dice. They can be placed in BTB contact with the enemy when deep striking. Give them the ''independant brood'' rule or w.e it was so that they aren't that dependant on Synapse. Toss another wound onto them, and I think we've come far in the house rule department

I completely agree on the specialising departmen. Generalising units is probably the best way to make the units boring, coupled with having little to no option on how to equip them.

Well, I was saying that any one of those could go a long way towards fixing them. Applying all of those buffs is overdoing it. 

[YuenglingDragon]

I'd be happy with them if they could just be deployed like the Callidus assassin.  Making their 5+ into a 5++ would be good, too.  That would make the Lictor have a spot in my army.

Disruption is the name of their game.  Right now they are only mildly disruptive and require a very speficic type of terrain to drop in.  It's just not how I imagine a Lictor being.  In the fluff they're on of the most feared things in the army.  They appear anywhere without warning and strike with lighting speed.  Right now they appear somewhere usually not where you'd prefer them and die with lightning speed.

[Khodexus]

I don't think Lictors need fixing, I've seen them used with very good success by the few good Tyranid players I know.

The most I would do for them is maybe give them another attack, and perhaps give them a "shrouding" ability to make them harder to shoot at.  I think those would be fitting, but everything else seems to work fine, from everything I've seen.  In total honesty though, I've never had an opportunity to actually shoot a Lictor against the players I'm thinking of.  They're always in close combat too quickly.

On an another note, I always play games with lots of Terrain, I'm sure that has something to do with the effectiveness of the Lictors.  They simply aren't designed for low terrain boards, period.

[Gwaihir]

As someone who has been on the wrong side of lictors, I have never quite understood why the Tyranid players here don't like them.  I wonder if it isn't because they aren't as effective as you would like against marines.  I play eldar and dark eldar and have found lictors to be a severe pain even if they aren't killing.

My dark eldar warrior squads have to spread out throughout a terrain piece to try to prevent a lictor from showing up in their midst.  If the squad isn't big enough to do this, I might have to add another squad in the same piece, but then I get very crowded and am vulnerable to something like a barbed strangler.  Also some bodies might be too deep into the terrain to be killed which means I have fewer dead bodies before losing my lances.  The lictor does all this without even being on the board, and even if the opponent doesn't have one in his list.  (I still have to be prepared just in case).

Even when I try to cover the whole terrain piece, I may not be able to so the lictor could show up there anyway.  If it does, I am going to lose the lances for one turn if I am lucky or the whole game if the lictor is lucky.

I sometimes use a haemonculi with a shadowfiled to make a suicide run at a squad I would like to have distracted for one turn.  He needs to have combat drugs for the 12" assault that gets him into combat.  I don't care if he doesn't kill anything, just tying up the squad for a turn is useful.  I don't care if he dies in the second round of combat; he has stolen a round of shooting.  That Haemi is a minimum of 75 points, comparable to the lictor.  The lictor can do the same job, often more effectively since he tends to be more killy.

Any changes have to be balanced with the larger game in mind.  The lictor is already very powerful against some armies.  Changes to make him better against some armies are likely to spill over into other armies as well which could be a balance problem.

[Zilverscale]

IMHO the best fix for the Lictors would be either 10 points of their cost as they are or  an extra attack and keep their points as is.

1-6 Lictors would be overkill.
Their DS rules are already good.
Their Ld is high enough for them not to bother with synapse range so no need to fix that.

The things mentioned before would make the Lictor cost more actally more in the area of 100 - 120 points/model.

Remember points costs also reflect special abilities of models.

[Midnight Walker]

I was reasonably happy with lictors in the last edition. They were still a little overpriced and overcomplicated (the new DS rules are much better) but I was still more or less happy with them. Just give them an extra wound and I think that'd suit me fine, there's no real need for loads of extra special rules and whatnot. Although saying that I agree with the point of brood telepathy. They're meant to be lurking scouts, more or less. I don't really think an invulnerable save is necessary, they have a cover save as it is, and I tend not to charge my Lictors at anyone other than basic troops, so a 5++ wouldn't help much anyway.

EDIT:

As someone who has been on the wrong side of lictors, I have never quite understood why the Tyranid players here don't like them.  I wonder if it isn't because they aren't as effective as you would like against marines.  I play eldar and dark eldar and have found lictors to be a severe pain even if they aren't killing.

The reason a lot of players don't like them is simply that they are vastly overcosted for the statline you get in return. Average T, W and a poor save should not cost the amount of points they do. They have some neat abilities to make up for it, but it's generally not the best investment you could make, given the alternatives.

[YuenglingDragon]

On an another note, I always play games with lots of Terrain, I'm sure that has something to do with the effectiveness of the Lictors.  They simply aren't designed for low terrain boards, period.

I play games with at least the minimum amount of terrain if not more but there aren't always lots of pieces of area terrain.  Sometimes there are just two or three pieces of area terrain on the whole board.  What the hell am I supposed to do with that?  And thia isn't at my house using my amphetamine parrotty terrain this is at a Battle Bunker.  At the beslubbering GW North American headquarters.  The las t game I played had three pieces of area terrain: one in my DZ, one in my opponents and one in no-mans land.  The one is his deployment zone was small enough that he filled it with his IG squad without even trying.

Their deepstriking rules are cool but should be closer to those of the Callidus.  Maybe something like it can be deepstruck anywhere within 6" of any terrain piece.  That way I could pick my target easier and just worry about a bad scatter like with other deepstrikers.

[XCrusaderguy01]

On an another note, I always play games with lots of Terrain, I'm sure that has something to do with the effectiveness of the Lictors.  They simply aren't designed for low terrain boards, period.

I play games with at least the minimum amount of terrain if not more but there aren't always lots of pieces of area terrain.  Sometimes there are just two or three pieces of area terrain on the whole board.  What the hell am I supposed to do with that?  And thia isn't at my house using my amphetamine parrotty terrain this is at a Battle Bunker.  At the beslubbering GW North American headquarters.  The las t game I played had three pieces of area terrain: one in my DZ, one in my opponents and one in no-mans land.  The one is his deployment zone was small enough that he filled it with his IG squad without even trying.

Right. In fact, a board with too much area terrain is favoring the rest of the tyranids. A balanced board might not have as much area terrain as the lictor needs to be effective.

Their deepstriking rules are cool but should be closer to those of the Callidus.  Maybe something like it can be deepstruck anywhere within 6" of any terrain piece.  That way I could pick my target easier and just worry about a bad scatter like with other deepstrikers.

But this is somewhat against the lictor fluff. The reason he Deep Strikes like he does currently, rather than as normal, is that he's already present, just lurking. DS makes it easy for you him to show up as a surprise wherever, without the need to worry about setting a hiding place then revealing it later. DS scatter dangers should play no part in this, unless the lictor is supposed to be clumsy and falling out of the trees hes hiding in or something... 

Something like the callidus would be great.

[Omalley69]

What is there to fix?

They arnt gret alone, i agree, but supporting +i +s hormas they are awesome.
They have rending, great. They can hit and run, great for ending the turn in cover.

Feeder tendrils and reroll reserves roll, its awesome...

[ShieldGeneratorFtw]

^ They cost too much (and also deserve another wound).

That's correct crusaderguy. It's not a Lictor walks up to a piece of ground, says ''I'm going to appear here'' and then promptly hurls himself on the ground, stands up, and hurls himself back down in a randomly determined direction until he's satisfied.... I say don't publish such oversuggesting fluff for them. This fluff is more fitting:


''Having a reputation for dying rather quickly, Lictors are incompetent ambushers that seem to have a culture of hurling themselves onto the ground until a certain length, in a random direction, has been reached. They supposedly scare the babies out of the IG, which suggests a lot of what kind of IG they are facing (think of a word named here earlier). Rending with their claws and scything with their talons, these laughable beings attract other tyranids to laugh at it, which means you can re-roll a single Laugh Roll on a 4+, once per turn/game.''

[Zilverscale]

What you also seem to forget is that something like a Lictor also has a psychological effect on a lot of players.

Lictor is a cool model wich even if slightly overprices, has a 70% get your points back rate with me.

If at all possible I DS him behind a low AV vehicle and chargwe it.
Usually the vehicle does BOOOOOOOOOOM!

It's also great to see my opponent try to get as much terrain occupied as possible...often not deploying as he wants.

Plus this thread is about idea's to fix the Lictor, as if it needs a huge fix??
And it's not about rediculing it, else you should have named the thread differantly and put it in another section.