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The Armies of 40k => Chaos Armies (Marines and Daemons) => Topic started by: Irisado on September 13, 2017, 05:20:27 AM

Title: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Irisado on September 13, 2017, 05:20:27 AM
Part 1: Stratagems, Relics and Warlord Traits – Warhammer Community (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/05/death-guard-warlord-traits-stratagems-and-relicsgw-homepage-post-2/)

Codex Focus: Death Guard Part 2: Special Rules and Psychic Powers – (https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/09/07/codex-focus-death-guard-part-2-special-rules-and-psychic-powers-sep-7gw-homepage-post-2/?utm_source=GamesWorkshop.com&utm_campaign=b9df592e70-GW+12th+September+News+Roundup+GB&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_c6e14e39d2-b9df592e70-114069417)

There is quite a lot of useful information in these articles.  The Deathguard look pretty handy in this edition.  They're going to be quite tough from the look of the rules and being able to advance and bypass shooting penalties is going to make certain choices more viable for them than for other armies.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on September 13, 2017, 07:15:03 AM
They look pretty solid. Plauge Marines so far are lackluster, so I hope the new codex brings a reason to include them.

Things I'm most worried about is Mortarion (who is going to hit like a brick), and S/T5 plague zombies which'll get a -1 to hit bubble on them.

The Plauge Crawler siege gun looks terrifying, as do the tri-wheeled Blight vehicles.

The army is going to be putting out mortal wounds like crazy too. Kinda scary.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Aurics Pride on September 14, 2017, 02:01:48 AM
The Death Guard have had a massive boost with this codex by the looks of it. As Killersquid has said it appears that they are going to be throwing out Mortal wounds for fun.
If you think that Magnus is tough enough to kill then don't look forward to facing Mortarion!
I've got a local Death Guard player who is complaining at the loss of Heldrakes, Maulerfiends, Raptors etc but it certainly seems that the stuff they have gained is much better than those units!
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Calamity on September 14, 2017, 03:20:00 AM
They throw out mortal wounds like sweets?  Oh, my main opponent plays with deathguard.  I think I'm gonna have a bad time.  :P
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Irisado on September 14, 2017, 08:07:26 AM
I've got a local Death Guard player who is complaining at the loss of Heldrakes, Maulerfiends, Raptors etc but it certainly seems that the stuff they have gained is much better than those units!

If he assembled and painted those models in Deathguard colours, I can appreciate why this would be annoying.  The positive side is, however, that the bonuses for the Deathguard offset any units to which they no longer have access in my opinion.  In addition, previous incarnations of the rules for the Deathguard didn't have access to all the units which regular Chaos Space Marine armies do, so it was bound to happen again at some point.  If I were a Deathguard player, I'd be pretty excited about the forthcoming codex.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Aurics Pride on September 14, 2017, 01:03:13 PM
I've got a local Death Guard player who is complaining at the loss of Heldrakes, Maulerfiends, Raptors etc but it certainly seems that the stuff they have gained is much better than those units!

If he assembled and painted those models in Deathguard colours, I can appreciate why this would be annoying.  The positive side is, however, that the bonuses for the Deathguard offset any units to which they no longer have access in my opinion.  In addition, previous incarnations of the rules for the Deathguard didn't have access to all the units which regular Chaos Space Marine armies do, so it was bound to happen again at some point.  If I were a Deathguard player, I'd be pretty excited about the forthcoming codex.

Very much agreed,
I think the loss of Raptors is what has hurt him most as he always seems to enjoy using them. On the whole though I think the new codex units look considerably more effective than the Raptors though and to be honest unless there is something hidden in the Death Guard book I'd already put them a tier above the standard Chaos Codex.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: faitherun (Fay-ith-er-run) on September 14, 2017, 06:48:34 PM
I've got a local Death Guard player who is complaining at the loss of Heldrakes, Maulerfiends, Raptors etc but it certainly seems that the stuff they have gained is much better than those units!

If he assembled and painted those models in Deathguard colours, I can appreciate why this would be annoying.  The positive side is, however, that the bonuses for the Deathguard offset any units to which they no longer have access in my opinion.  In addition, previous incarnations of the rules for the Deathguard didn't have access to all the units which regular Chaos Space Marine armies do, so it was bound to happen again at some point.  If I were a Deathguard player, I'd be pretty excited about the forthcoming codex.

Very much agreed,
I think the loss of Raptors is what has hurt him most as he always seems to enjoy using them. On the whole though I think the new codex units look considerably more effective than the Raptors though and to be honest unless there is something hidden in the Death Guard book I'd already put them a tier above the standard Chaos Codex.

He can always take an additional detachment of <Evil Detachment> army using the base CSM rules. Then have them fitting in the army thematically and he loses nothing in his actual playing force. Just those units don't get to benefit from any special Death Guard rules, which I believe most of them would not have anyways.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Neo-Buzzard on September 17, 2017, 09:49:12 AM
Having played Death Guard for 10+ years, I'm only really disappointed in 2 things. The loss of normal terminators, and the lack of options for plague champions. I knew my raptors weren't "fluffy" when I bought them so I'll only miss telling people to feel the weight of the foam they're in.

I'm thinking of converting my old chaos termies to blight lords  (just need power sword/power axes and a bunch of combi-weapons though they won't look so "nurgle-y).

Plague Champions could at least get the option for a balesword or something. They seem a little bland. My two cents
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on September 17, 2017, 02:22:08 PM
It looks like the new blight terminators have the same options (and more some), so you'll be able to use your terminators just fine.

Are plague champions the squad sgt. for plague marines? Can't they get powerfists?
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Neo-Buzzard on September 17, 2017, 07:09:05 PM
It looks like the new blight terminators have the same options (and more some), so you'll be able to use your terminators just fine.

Are plague champions the squad sgt. for plague marines? Can't they get powerfists?

They can get a power fist, replace their bolter with a bolt pistol, plasma pistol or plasma gun, and can exchange their plague knife for a plague sword.

I would have liked them to have access to the weapon list in the codex like normal, maybe have some diversity in my unit comps.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: magenb on September 17, 2017, 09:34:33 PM
The codex does seem to have a number of ways to generate mortal wounds, then there is Mortarion.. thats just utter filth.. excuse the pun.. but high T, with 3+/4++ and then 5+ per wound, then their is the cc attacks, then Mortal Wounds for each unit within 7", the list of stuff just gets piled on...

new dex, new over the top rules to encourage people to buy the new insanely priced model... that 7th edition smell seems to be coming back.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on September 17, 2017, 10:01:32 PM
The codex does seem to have a number of ways to generate mortal wounds, then there is Mortarion.. thats just utter filth.. excuse the pun.. but high T, with 3+/4++ and then 5+ per wound, then their is the cc attacks, then Mortal Wounds for each unit within 7", the list of stuff just gets piled on...

new dex, new over the top rules to encourage people to buy the new insanely priced model... that 7th edition smell seems to be coming back.

It's a cool big model, but he's also a lot of points. Gotta way the costs with that. There is a lot of high damage attacks in 8th. Magnus can be dropped T1 a lot of times, Mortarian isn't too much tougher.

I'm not worried about single big models.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: magenb on September 17, 2017, 10:52:59 PM
It's a cool big model, but he's also a lot of points. Gotta way the costs with that. There is a lot of high damage attacks in 8th. Magnus can be dropped T1 a lot of times, Mortarian isn't too much tougher.

I'm not worried about single big models.

Its cheaper than a wraithknight in CC wargear. That mortal wound to all units in that radius is just putrid.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on September 18, 2017, 12:05:59 AM
He's still over 400pts. I think it's fine. Folks will get stomped by him the first couple of games, and then learn how to deal with him. Same as anything new.

Also, once all the factions are updated with their own stratagems and such, things will be fine.

I'm more worried about how I'm going to deal with the hordes of poxwalkers. Single big models can be mitigated, 100+ zombies which are fearless and S/T4 are much harder to.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Cavalier on September 18, 2017, 08:07:50 AM
I'm with you KS. I'm sick to death of playing against hordes already. I've played 8/10 games against various Guard armies and its super annoying. It sucks how the morale thing which would really help to balance horde units is almost always mitigated by easy access "fearless".
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Neo-Buzzard on September 18, 2017, 08:08:58 AM
Just throwing this out there. I'm planning on a 10 man unit of plague marines w no upgrades, maybe a plague sword for the champ, then using blight bombardment on them every turn.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: magenb on September 18, 2017, 06:28:12 PM
Just throwing this out there. I'm planning on a 10 man unit of plague marines w no upgrades, maybe a plague sword for the champ, then using blight bombardment on them every turn.

Yes, but put a Biologus putrifier near them.

That's 10D6 worth of S4 Plague weapon shots, with each Wound roll of 6 generating a Mortal Wound, now expand that to 20 PM's in 1 units....
Solid T marines with 3+, followed by a 5+.  For only 2 points more than a Dire Avenger...

so much for GW closing the cheese factory.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Neo-Buzzard on September 18, 2017, 09:22:27 PM
Just throwing this out there. I'm planning on a 10 man unit of plague marines w no upgrades, maybe a plague sword for the champ, then using blight bombardment on them every turn.

Yes, but put a Biologus putrifier near them.

That's 10D6 worth of S4 Plague weapon shots, with each Wound roll of 6 generating a Mortal Wound, now expand that to 20 PM's in 1 units....
Solid T marines with 3+, followed by a 5+.  For only 2 points more than a Dire Avenger...

so much for GW closing the cheese factory.

I thought about that but I think a 20 man unit would be too expensive and still need some way across the table. With 10 I can rhino them where I need them and let them go.

Also, anyone else feel like it's going to be hard to find a spot in there lists for termies? I like the Blightbringer too much and having 2 hell brutes with the potential for either of them to shoot twice sounds too enticing. I would really like to bring a unit of blight lords but idk, other options just seem better.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Grand Master Lomandalis on September 18, 2017, 09:44:21 PM
For only 2 points more than a Dire Avenger...

so much for GW closing the cheese factory.
You really can't compare the point values of a codex unit vs an index unit.  The indexes were released to get everyone playing with rules right off the bat, much like they included the rules for armies in the 3rd edition rule book.  They are pumping out codexes at a phenominal rate and are swiftly making index lists obsolete.  Give them time and I am sure they will adjust the price of Dire Avengers to be appropriate.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: magenb on September 19, 2017, 01:31:12 AM
Give them time and I am sure they will adjust the price of Dire Avengers to be appropriate.

The indexes were by all accounts were fairly well balanced to the point that most people were happy with them. A bit of tweaking and all would have been solid.

By not balancing the new codexes against the indexes, you are creating an arms race which by its very nature just destroys that balance that was so hard to get in the first place.

You don't need stuff that pushes the power scale, GW would do rather fine with just adjustments and the odd bit of new/refreshed kit. All it really does is boost sales from those that jump on the bandwagon and punish people who play the game. Its not at 7th ed level yet, but its not a great sign either.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Irisado on September 19, 2017, 08:06:52 AM
The indexes were by all accounts were fairly well balanced to the point that most people were happy with them. A bit of tweaking and all would have been solid.

The litany of complaints about the Eldar Index in the Eldar board would suggest otherwise ;).

Back to the topic at hand.  I would say that it's very unlikely that many players will opt for squads of twenty Plague Marines.  They'd be too expensive and too slow.  It's far better, in my opinion, to mount them in a Rhino and give them mobility, so that this durable and hard hitting unit can be exactly where it needs to be.

Whenever a new codex is released, overly powerful options on paper don't necessarily turn out to be employed with as much frequency as anticipated in the game.  I'd thus recommend waiting to see the Deathguard in action before getting too concerned about large squads of Plague Marines being boosted to such an extent.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Wyddr on September 19, 2017, 09:15:32 AM
The indexes were by all accounts were fairly well balanced to the point that most people were happy with them. A bit of tweaking and all would have been solid.

None of those people were Tau players.

I'm reserving judgement here until we see how things lie when the DG take the field. A lot of hoopla out there about mortal wounds, but mortal wounds done in the 1s ans 2s are really not the end of the world unless you're playing a super elite force.

T5 is not what it used to be, nor are MEQ saves. The only thing so far that gives me significant pause about the Death Guard is Disgustingly Resilient, which seems very, very good. But then, that rule was in the Indexes anyway.

Of course, the fact that it seems Plague Marines are going to cost less than Rubric Marines still pisses me off to no end, but this is literally no different than any iteration of the game ever. Plague Marines have *always* been the best cult troops, and it seems they will remain so. Forever.
Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Lord of Winter and War on September 19, 2017, 09:28:11 AM
Dude,just wait until then thousands sons codex is out. There is no point comparing the index to a codex.

Every codex that's been released has tweaked points and rules for the units within.

I also doubt plague Marines will see much table time anyway (in competitive settings). They don't really have much going for them besides the extra save. It's all about the pox walkers.





Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: magenb on September 19, 2017, 05:19:48 PM
10 PM with Biologus will kill 5 marines on average roll of 35 shots. Its really not needed considering everything else they have. They'll make good objective holders with out the grenade spam in a balanced list.

Pox walkers are just more hordes and well, lets face it, hordes are still broken in 8th. Complaining about that is just beating a dead horse at this point.

Title: Re: Deathguard Codex
Post by: Drah on November 8, 2017, 10:22:40 AM
Am loving the Biologus' rules as well as all the new Daemon engines, pretty happy with the new codex overall