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Author Topic: My take on the Harlequins - updated 04/16/2012  (Read 5449 times)

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Offline Ambience 327

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My take on the Harlequins - updated 04/16/2012
« on: December 30, 2009, 12:46:05 PM »
I present now my own take on the Eldar Harlequins. This list is based primarily off of the Citadel Journal list that was created for 3rd Edition Warhammer 40,000 if memory serves, but has been influenced heavily by my reading of the old 1st & 2nd Edition rules and fluff, as well as various fan-made Harlequin lists that I have read at various times. There is nothing ground-breaking here, but I believe I have reached a point where the flavor of the Harlequin list is quite interesting - they are even more fragile yet deadly than their Craftworld cousins, with a few interesting quirks thrown in for good measure. This list has been playtested a bit, but I'd love to hear what other people think about it.

You may now download a PDF file from Box.com as well - click here!

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EDIT - The codex should now be fully compliant with 40K Online's policies. Thanks to Rasmus for his help.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #1 on: January 7, 2010, 03:00:20 AM »
After having read through this a few times I can see that you have put a lot of thought, but very little playtesting into this. This reflects in the feedback below, based on the playtesting I have done for the EO Harlequin Codex.
Also your grip of the Harlequin fluff seems a bit flimsy at times, which means that your list breaks with the fluff actually written about the harlequins (as little as it may be).
That being said, I like the approach, but the list is simply far from done, or balanced.

The names of the Dances are a bit off. I would rather have them tie in with Eldar mythology than with French theatrical tradition. Harlequins are not French, after all.

Aspirants makes no sense in the fluff. The Mimes are the Harlequins in training, prior to their ritual, so the aspirants do not fit in. This of course makes the Ritual-roll make no sense either. I like the idea, but this is clearly not the way to do it. It is too much Death-Company.

There is no such thing as "High Shadowseer" in the fluff. A Psyker is called "warlock" and the superior is "High Warlock". The High warlock is sometimes called Shadowseer. He is the top of the tree, and trains the others. There is nothing above him. It what you are doing is giving each guardian unit a Farseer instead of Warlock, and adding High Farseer. Tracks badly with the fluff, again.

Riveblades (or Stormglove as it was originally called) was not a Solitaire weapon at all, but given to the Shadowseer. I see no game-mech reason to make it Solitaire only.

Your variant of the Acrobatic dismount makes no sense, unless you mean for the Harlequins to be able to walk up to the venom (say, move 2"), mount, then dismount on the other side (and move the remaining 4"). That would be spectacularly bad. I would scratch that.
I think lessening the strength is the wrong way to go when it comes to mitigating damage from the Destroyed-result, as it adds unwanted complexity, but that's just me.

Giving force weapons to Eldar psykers (of any variety) was removed in 3rd ed, and good riddance. You have brought them back. For what reason does the option not include a witchblade, the prevalent weapon of Eldar psykers, rather than the force weapon?
The options also include the capacity to have Veil of Tears AND Conceal. That is an incredibly powerful combination, as you do not have any rules to regulate if you can use both in the same turn. That would make the unit neigh-invulnerable to... well, most anything.

As you have made the Mimes into harlequins-with-infiltrate rather than aspirants, their cost is vastly inflated, not for what they can do, but again, it makes no sense in the fluff.

Drop the jumppack off the Solitaire. That or up his points. He is a terrifying thing, and the only thing keeping him in check right now is the fact he cannot use transports. You neatly step around this by giving him a jumppack, making him a cruise missile.

The price for your jetbikes is quite interesting. It is low. I mean really low. It is standard Harlequin to which you add toughness, save, weapons and speed, all for less than the price of another Harlequin. I would like to see your math on that.

Giving Deathejsters Dark Eldar weapons really breaks off from all they have been before, but that's an argument that has been made before, so I won't bring it up here in full. Suffice it to say that it does not reflect the Harlequins as they were originally written.

Why is the Mockingbird - a weapon on a vyper, moved to heavy?

I get why you would want to have the Venom as a taxi, ferrying units around, but does make it considerably more powerful, especially that you now allow the Solitaire to get on it and zip across the field. That is exceedingly powerful.


« Last Edit: January 7, 2010, 03:26:25 PM by Rasmus »

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Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #2 on: January 7, 2010, 07:36:06 AM »
You've got quite a lot to say here, and I spent all my time replying to you in the Exodite thread. I'll get back to these comments later, but I have one quick question off the top of my head.

You mention that the Mimes are the "Aspirants" of the Harlequins. What are you basing this off of? The oldest Harlequin fluff & rules I could find, being the RT era stuff found in the Compendium, had the Mimes and Master Mime as MORE POWERFUL than standard Harlequins. (At least, if my memory is working right.) They had better statlines. How does that make them aspiring Harlequins? Was there something added later that switched them to Harlequins-in-training, or was that just something somebody came up with as an idea when making a fan codex? I don't pretend to know all of the Harlequin fluff, but as far as I know, the Compendium stuff is the oldest, and the Mimes were clearly superior. (Again, if my memory serves. I'll  take another look at the Compendium before I come back to this thread to make sure my brain is still working properly!)

Offline Rasmus

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #3 on: January 7, 2010, 09:09:55 AM »
The latest revision of the Harlequins by GW, that in Citadel Journal 39, the Mimes were moved off the "harlequins with Stealth"-spot and turned into apprentices. As the harlequins have such a high basic cost already this makes perfect sense as far as list-building goes, and has been propagated in further CJ revisions, in the EO Codex and in the Troll list during EoT.

As this was not an unnecessary revision (as many others might have been) then this has been embraced, and playtesting using the Troll list, CJ list and later the EO-list has confirmed that the Mimes work a lot better that way than as harlequins-with-stealth.

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Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #4 on: January 8, 2010, 07:51:20 AM »
The latest revision of the Harlequins by GW, that in Citadel Journal 39, the Mimes were moved off the "harlequins with Stealth"-spot and turned into apprentices. As the harlequins have such a high basic cost already this makes perfect sense as far as list-building goes, and has been propagated in further CJ revisions, in the EO Codex and in the Troll list during EoT.

As this was not an unnecessary revision (as many others might have been) then this has been embraced, and playtesting using the Troll list, CJ list and later the EO-list has confirmed that the Mimes work a lot better that way than as harlequins-with-stealth.

Well, you argued that the Aspirants made no sense according to the fluff, and that the Mimes filled that role. I was merely showing that I had indeed looked into the fluff. I think that the Mimes work as I have shown them, and that Aspirants do indeed make some sort of sense. My decision is not very different from the way GW alters things as they go, and - at least in my thinking - is fitting and doesn't contradict any previously posted fluff except for the ret-con of Mimes from uber-Harlies to new recruits. As the title of the thread says - this is merely my take on the Harlequins. You and everyone else are welcome to disagree with my choices.  :)


After having read through this a few times I can see that you have put a lot of thought, but very little playtesting into this. This reflects in the feedback below, based on the playtesting I have done for the EO Harlequin Codex.
Also your grip of the Harlequin fluff seems a bit flimsy at times, which means that your list breaks with the fluff actually written about the harlequins (as little as it may be).
That being said, I like the approach, but the list is simply far from done, or balanced.

I am in the playtesting phase on this so, as you mentioned, a lot of things will probably change - especially points costs - to balance things out a bit. I'm very open to suggestions, but ultimately, the final decision is of course mine as this is my project. (I hope that doesn't sound defensive, I'm just explaining my position.)

I'm not really sure what you mean about breaking with fluff. As I mentioned earlier, the Mimes, in my opinion, should retain their veteran status as given in the older RT era rules. I think they work better, fluff-wise, in that manner. They are supposed to be the Harlequins who play lesser daemons and other evil things, so I think they would need to be a bit more skilled and experienced to handle those roles. (This is based on the Solitaire being the only one who can play Slaanesh without going mad - I would think other evil roles would hold similar, though less potent, dangers.)

The names of the Dances are a bit off. I would rather have them tie in with Eldar mythology than with French theatrical tradition. Harlequins are not French, after all.

I come from a theater background. The Harlequins are nothing if not performance artists. I like these dances, and they will probably stay.

Aspirants makes no sense in the fluff. The Mimes are the Harlequins in training, prior to their ritual, so the aspirants do not fit in. This of course makes the Ritual-roll make no sense either. I like the idea, but this is clearly not the way to do it. It is too much Death-Company.

I addressed the Mimes above. As far as Aspirants being the Harlequins in training, I see this as pluasible. They aren't initiated into the Masque, so they don't use the Harlequin gear, but a Harlequin hangs with them to show them the ropes. And you would expect them to eventually take the ritual, so that rule seems interesting. It may not work very well, which playtesting will show, but I don't think "It is too much Death-Company" is a reason to leave it out.

There is no such thing as "High Shadowseer" in the fluff. A Psyker is called "warlock" and the superior is "High Warlock". The High warlock is sometimes called Shadowseer. He is the top of the tree, and trains the others. There is nothing above him. It what you are doing is giving each guardian unit a Farseer instead of Warlock, and adding High Farseer. Tracks badly with the fluff, again.

This was actually a conscious decision. The Warlock has become a fairly established Path-type character in the Craftworld army. I realise that the RT era Harlequin psykers were Warlocks and High Warlocks. The name Shadowseer appears first in 2nd Ed 40K if I recall, and I thought it was a good change then - they have a different role than Warlocks. I chose to keep Shadowseers roughly on the level they are in the Harlequin Troupe entry in Codex: Eldar, and add in the "High Shadowseer" (based on the "High Warlock" from the RT list) as the head honcho of the Psykers. Again, I don't think this really breaks with fluff - merely makes it easier to tell what is what when comparing Harlies & Craftworlders.

Riveblades (or Stormglove as it was originally called) was not a Solitaire weapon at all, but given to the Shadowseer. I see no game-mech reason to make it Solitaire only.

I was just trying to give him an additional option to make him a bit more deadly, but it has become apparent that this is not necessary.

Your variant of the Acrobatic dismount makes no sense, unless you mean for the Harlequins to be able to walk up to the venom (say, move 2"), mount, then dismount on the other side (and move the remaining 4"). That would be spectacularly bad. I would scratch that.
I think lessening the strength is the wrong way to go when it comes to mitigating damage from the Destroyed-result, as it adds unwanted complexity, but that's just me.

The first part of Acrobatic Dismount is nothing more than a re-name of the Dark Eldar scaling nets. It allows the squad to disembark at any point during the vehicle's move, allowing you to better position the Venom after dropping off the squad, in case it wants to fire, or to pick up the squad after moving a few inches and continue to move. It isn't a huge advantage, but it is an advantage. I see there may be some confusion in the wording - "during its move" should mean the vehicle's move, not the squad's move. I'll look into better wording.

As to the damage mitigation, I just wanted to show that they were better at getting out of harm's way when it goes down. This might be better served by simply allowing them to have successful wounds re-rolled. Not sure there - thoughts?

Giving force weapons to Eldar psykers (of any variety) was removed in 3rd ed, and good riddance. You have brought them back. For what reason does the option not include a witchblade, the prevalent weapon of Eldar psykers, rather than the force weapon?

You may be right here. I just wanted something to add to their potency a bit. Maybe moving the Riveblade here instead would help...? (Since you said it was a Shadowseer weapon.)

The options also include the capacity to have Veil of Tears AND Conceal. That is an incredibly powerful combination, as you do not have any rules to regulate if you can use both in the same turn. That would make the unit neigh-invulnerable to... well, most anything.

Is a 6+ cover save really that powerful? They already have a 5+ Invulnerable save (combined with Veil of Tears), so this would only come into play against things like Psycannons that ignore Invulnerable saves in the first place (or for Aspirants). It isn't like they get the cover save and the invulnerable save.

As you have made the Mimes into harlequins-with-infiltrate rather than aspirants, their cost is vastly inflated, not for what they can do, but again, it makes no sense in the fluff.

Well, like I said their original fluff had them as Harlies with uber-infiltration skills. They have their choice of Infiltrate or Scout, and of course by extension Outflank. They need to pay something for that, though 7 pts each might be a bit much. Playtesting will tell...

Drop the jumppack off the Solitaire. That or up his points. He is a terrifying thing, and the only thing keeping him in check right now is the fact he cannot use transports. You neatly step around this by giving him a jumppack, making him a cruise missile.

Hmm... You may have a point here. I used him without the Phase Shifter in my first and only game with him, and he tore a unit to shreds - enough that they failed their morale and ran, only to be cut down. He was left out in the open and slaughtered by massed bolter fire. He's a bit of an oddity - he is so deadly that he can cut the other unit to pieces and be left standing in a kill zone. I'll think about dropping the Phase Shifter, or boosting its cost.

The price for your jetbikes is quite interesting. It is low. I mean really low. It is standard Harlequin to which you add toughness, save, weapons and speed, all for less than the price of another Harlequin. I would like to see your math on that.

Don't have math for it - more of a gut feeling. Yes, they gain speed, but they loose the option for kisses, and can't get Veil of Tears unless their is at least one 10-strong (300 point!) unit of them AND you pay to upgrade the Shadowseer with a Jetbike. (Well, you can join a non-jetbike version to them, but that kind of kills their speed...) They bring a decent number of attacks to the table, and they gain some survivability, but they are still rather fragile. They haven't accomplished much in my playtests thus far.

Giving Deathejsters Dark Eldar weapons really breaks off from all they have been before, but that's an argument that has been made before, so I won't bring it up here in full. Suffice it to say that it does not reflect the Harlequins as they were originally written.

The Dark Eldar didn't really exist when the Harlequins first appeared, but I think it isn't much of a stretch to think that the Harlies visit them. If they do, why wouldn't at least these macabre types get access to some of their grim, spike-covered weapons?

Why is the Mockingbird - a weapon on a vyper, moved to heavy?

It mounts a pretty impressive gun. Everything else in the Harlequin list (aside from the Marionette) is at least swift due to being Fleet, if not faster. Most things in the Harlequin list are very light on shooting, which is why the Mockingbird and the DJ's are Heavy Support. (You could just as easily make a case that DJ's should be Elites if you are going down those routes. Ultimately, what role does it fill?)

I get why you would want to have the Venom as a taxi, ferrying units around, but does make it considerably more powerful, especially that you now allow the Solitaire to get on it and zip across the field. That is exceedingly powerful.

Um, the Solitaire can't ride the Venom. See his "Individual" rule. The Venom is a FA choice by itself so that you can't just give one to every Harlequin Troupe. I wanted to limit transport usage, not encourage it!





I have updated the Codex with a number of your suggestions, as well as a few from elsewhere. The latest version is still available in the Scribd info above. Here is a summary of the changes in this new version:

- Added Riveblade as an option for the High Shadowseer
- Removed Force Weapon as an option for the High Shadowseer
- Removed Riveblade as an option for the Solitaire
- Raised the cost of the Phase Shifter for the Solitaire from +25 to +35 points because he's deadly...
- Clarified the Venom's "Acrobatic Dismount" rules a bit, and changed the "Explodes" mitigation to a re-roll
- Reduced the cost of Mimes from 25 pts each to 22 pts each
- The costs of the Troupe Master's Dances have been raised

Offline Rasmus

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2010, 04:35:48 AM »
- Added Riveblade as an option for the High Shadowseer
- Removed Force Weapon as an option for the High Shadowseer
- Removed Riveblade as an option for the Solitaire
Fair enough.

Quote
- Raised the cost of the Phase Shifter for the Solitaire from +25 to +35 points because he's deadly...
Back in pre-test before CJ 39 the Solitaire had that piece of gear, and it staid into CJ 39, for some reason, at 15 points no less. That with 12 attacks and the confusion of 2+ to wound and no save probably broke the harlequin's only chance to be an accepted army. So I would watch that one.

Quote
- Reduced the cost of Mimes from 25 pts each to 22 pts each
This is interesting. What prompted this? They are still just as good, probably better now that the normal Harlies have gotten a sizable cutback in power, and you lower the points? Why?

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Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2010, 12:13:52 PM »
Back in pre-test before CJ 39 the Solitaire had that piece of gear, and it staid into CJ 39, for some reason, at 15 points no less. That with 12 attacks and the confusion of 2+ to wound and no save probably broke the harlequin's only chance to be an accepted army. So I would watch that one.

I just think he would be outmaneuvered too easily if he doesn't have this option. His max Attacks under my version is 10 (3+1 for 2CCW+6 for Blitz), he doesn't get nasty CC weapons (either a Power Weapon or a Kiss are his options for CC). He's deadly, but at S3, he isn't too deadly.

I will keep an eye on him, but at the moment I'm leaning more towards buffing him than nerfing him - mainly because he dies like a chump if he isn't in CC. I'm considering either Stealth or a personal version of Veil of Tears as a way to make him a bit more survivable. Or I might just leave him as-is and force people to really think about how to use him.

If I do decide to remove the Phase Shifter from the Solitaire, it will probably be replaced with Infiltrate, Scout or Master Infiltrator. He needs something to help him get into CC, otherwise he's just a fire magnet and then a greasy spot on the pavement.

This is interesting. What prompted this? They are still just as good, probably better now that the normal Harlies have gotten a sizable cutback in power, and you lower the points? Why?

Playtesting and feedback prompted this. They are basically Harlequins without the option of getting the dances, and (assuming they use Infiltrate, Scout or Outflank) the inability to be joined by a Shadowseer with his Veil of Tears. They are tricky to use properly (since they might just be the only target your enemy can draw a bead on), and they can't make nearly as much use of the Venom transports (in the early game) due to being well out of position for transport. They just seemed to be overcosted for what they did.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "normal Harlies have gotten a sizable cutback in power". The only change I made to them was a much needed points hike on the Dances (which might still be too low...). How would that justify keeping the Mimes at the same cost, since it isn't part of the equation for them?

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2010, 07:39:42 PM »
Aww, I was going to make wraith bone harlequin puppets.  I was even going to name them "Marionettes" and and was toying with the idea of giving them monofilament wire weapons.  :(

Well, great minds, right?  And my version of them is still sufficiently different for me to get around to finish them some day.

Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #8 on: January 18, 2010, 07:31:27 AM »
Well, seeing as how my version is in no way official, and includes many ideas borrowed from other sources, feel free to do up your own version of Marionettes.  ;D

Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #9 on: February 9, 2010, 01:29:56 PM »
New version uploaded today. Here's the update notes:

- Added on option to include a Webway Portal as a Fast Attack choice. This has been added for the purposes of playtesting, and I make no guarantee that it is balanced yet. It may be kept, it may be removed, it may be changed, the points cost may be adjusted - I really can't say yet. It works almost exactly like the Dark Eldar version, but with a slight change to the wording which I think makes it a little clearer and work just a tiny bit better. Obviously, the fact that it actually takes up a FOC slot changes the decision-making process for including it just a bit.

-Added the option to upgrade Shadowseers to Veteran Shadowseers. This gives them a bit more survivability, as well as allowing them to join Mimes without removing their ability to Scout, Infiltrate or Outflank.

-Updated the rules for the Mockingbird's Sonic Cannon to increase the number of hits caused on the unit by +1 for each additional hit rolled. This makes the weapon just a bit more powerful, allowing it to put a few more wounds on a unit as it fires.

Offline Farceseer Syranaul

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2010, 11:43:36 PM »
Quote from: Rasmus
Giving force weapons to Eldar psykers (of any variety) was removed in 3rd ed, and good riddance. You have brought them back. For what reason does the option not include a witchblade, the prevalent weapon of Eldar psykers, rather than the force weapon?

Witchblades are the prevalent weapon of Craftworld psykers.  Not all Eldar psykers.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2010, 11:45:18 PM by Farceseer Siranaul »
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2010, 03:11:40 AM »
Witchblades are the prevalent weapon of Craftworld psykers.  Not all Eldar psykers.
Back in 2nd ed, when there still was a choice, Harlequins didn't have the option of scoring Force weapons other than through through wargear-cards (where witchblades were far superior to the force rod), unlike hte imperials who could get it in other ways, as in basic kit. This leads me to believe that when they loaded up for physic weapons they did so in the same way (possibly with the same make) as their Craftworld kin, for simple efficiency.

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Offline Ambience 327

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Re: My take on the Harlequins
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2012, 12:01:05 PM »
I know it has been a while, but... New version uploaded! (links in 1st post - including a new link allowing you to download the PDF from Box.com)

Change Log

Changed the Dance of the Comedienne to make it so that enemy models in base contact with the Troupe Master halve their WS rather than those directing attacks against him. I realised that since he wasn't an Independent Character, this rule would only matter in rare circumstances.

Updated the Mimes to have both Infiltrate and Scouts, rather than either/or. I had a fundamental misunderstanding of how these rules interacted.

Updated the High Shadowseer's "Conceal" power to the new "Concealment" power, which improves the cover save from 5+ to 4+. I reason that the High Shadowseer is a master of illusion, and as such his attempts to psychically conceal himself and his compatriots would be a bit more powerful. This also gives you more reason to use this power on units other than the Aspirants.

Increased Aspis quantity from two to three for a single Fast Attack choice.

Fixed a disparity in the Solitaire's profile - all versions should be the same now.

 


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