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Offline Farseer_Edeolus

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The Necrons and....well everyone
« on: January 16, 2005, 12:50:54 PM »
I've heard lots of interesting morsels of fluff concerning the C'tan and their relationship to the eldar e.g. witchblades were invented to fight the necrons. but I'm confused 'cus i don't know all the story. Sorry if this has been done already but I'm very intruiged. Also I heard something about the C'tan controling the Tau etherals which also sounded interesting. So if anyone wants to sum up some Necron/Eldar/Tau fluff for me I'd be very appreciative.
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Offline Lorizael

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2005, 01:43:28 PM »
Hmm. I don't know much about the Necrons but a red-shirt at my local GW insists the Harlequins laughing God is actually the C'tan Deciever and the Hsrlequins are the 'Cron's "be-atches".
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Offline Kage2020

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2005, 01:58:36 PM »
LOL... Ah, that 'ole theory.  You might want to beam your local red shirt down to the planet of knowledge and have him beaten into a pulp, the true Star Tre treatment of red shirts, for his woeful assertion. ;)

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Offline Kitsune Tsuki

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2005, 01:59:50 PM »
The C'tan controlling the Ethereals is a cock and bull story. I don't belive it, but others do.

Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2005, 04:44:32 PM »
And no, the Deceiver is not the Laughing God. One us a warp-entity, the other the warp is anathema for. They are NOT the same, nor were they ever. It is a common mistake though.

The C'tan are powerful, but not very cunning, and not very far-reaching. They never were. They work through brute force right now, not subtle influence.

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2005, 05:02:42 PM »
There is, of course, no real reason that the Deceiver could not have taken on the role of one of the 'avatars' of the Laughing God during the 'prehistory' of the 40k universe.

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Offline Wrathe

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2005, 09:38:17 PM »
Did the other Eldar gods have avatars before the fall? as far as I know, Khaine is the only one to have avatars, because of the way he died. The others were full and singular entities before. Nurgle doesn't have avatars.

Offline TheMightyPikachu

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2005, 11:40:16 PM »
Well, the solitaire is an 'Avatar' of Cegorach, if you follow the use of the word, meaning an individual empowered by the God, or his chosen champion. So every Chaos lord and prince is an 'Avatar', in the dictionary definition of the word.
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Offline Athenys Manan

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2005, 12:39:14 AM »
Indeed, Warp powers aren't limited to a single 'self' in the same way we are . While the majority of what is Slaanesh is centered around a certain area of the Warp(EOT), his eyes and ears are many. Like most chaos gods it works through minions, mortals are the only link through which it can have a direct influence on the material plane. Lesser warp entities that are either allied to or form a seperate part of chaotic powers are the intermediaries. I say allied because Shaha Gaathon was a daemon of great power that predated the 'birth' of his master. Let's also not forget what Slaanesh IS: 'A composite being made up for the most part of billions of former Eldar souls'...bingo. What makes you think that such a power cannot manifest through parts of itself elsewhere to varying degrees? For all we know a chaos god can create multiple Avatars and send them on their merry way, while most of it (what's left) stays put.



Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2005, 02:31:24 AM »
Did the other Eldar gods have avatars before the fall? as far as I know, Khaine is the only one to have avatars, because of the way he died. The others were full and singular entities before. Nurgle doesn't have avatars.
   No, the other Eldar gods lacked avatars in the same sense as the avatar of Khaine. True - Solitaires are touched by the living Cefgorach, and this might be true for some other historical characters as well (Asurmen, for instance) but it is never spelled out, and left to conjecture.

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Offline Farseer Ari'Torcis

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2005, 11:19:27 AM »
Sorry if this is a stupid question, but the craftworld eldar codex I have makes reference to Ynnead, eldar god of the dead.  Eldrad is able to percieve the dormant god when he pulls back in meditation as a faint pulsing of the eldar souls.  If, as was said before, she who thirsts is as great an entity that is, at least in part, comprised of eldar souls, one would find it hard to believe that she hasent picked up on Ynnead's presence.  Why hasent she done anything about it if this would pose a threat to her appitite for souls?

Offline Farseer_Edeolus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2005, 11:48:49 AM »
as far as I'm aware he's hiding in the infinity circuit untill he's strong enough to fight and Slaanesh can't reach the infinity circuit...i think
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2005, 12:43:26 PM »
Well, Ynnead isn't actually "born" yet. It, supposedly, needs a certain number or power of Eldar souls. It is not yet "alive" so therefore does not have to hide from anyone. This is actually a really old thought, from teh first mention of Craftworlders, then it was called "The Merging".

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2005, 05:43:23 PM »
I would strongly suggest that there were "avatars" of the various eldar gods before the Fall - well, significantly before the Fall - since it prevents the kind of ad hoc horrendous 'fluff' that forms the body of the so-called "Eldar mythological cycles".  They were not the same as the current Avatar, since that was a last ditch 'effort' (or effect) of the fight between Slaanesh and Khorne, but avatars they were.  That is to say the 'fluff' stating that gods can manifest themselves fully in the matterium is, for me, horrendous.  Rather, they can invest a large proportion of their power into an appropriate avatar...

The position of Ulthanesh (etc.) in this is quite interesting, since the 'level' to which a warp entity can be born is directly related to the 'psyker level' of the individual involved.

Or you can go with the idea of gods physically manifesting.  But if you have eldar gods doing that then there is no reason that the other gods/warp entities could not do that.  After all, daemons can if but for a short while... Oh, and you would also have to explain why they no longer do it.

As to Ynnaed, then yes I would agree with Rasmus broadly.  Ynnaed still slumbs in the Eternal Matrix and has not yet arisen outside of the undifferentiated gestalt consciousnesses of the craftworld entities... And, one other minor little entity.  But that's just me... )

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Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2005, 01:50:25 AM »
But the Eldars were drawn separate by the rules of Asuryan before the Fall. The only way they could communicate with the Eldar was through the Spiritstones. At least that's what the 2nd ed codex states. Should it not have mentioned "only through the spiritstones and the physical manifestations of the gods walking about sipping tea with the mortals"? :)

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Offline Kage2020

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2005, 07:26:28 AM »
<grin>

But the Eldars were drawn separate by the rules of Asuryan before the Fall. The only way they could communicate with the Eldar was through the Spiritstones. At least that's what the 2nd ed codex states.
That would be consistent with the original material, yes.

Quote from: Rasmus
Should it not have mentioned "only through the spiritstones and the physical manifestations of the gods walking about sipping tea with the mortals"? :)
It's amazing what does not get mentioned, mostly because 'things' in the 40k universe are not included for their consistency with pre-established material! ;)

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Offline Harmen

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2005, 11:02:41 AM »
And no, the Deceiver is not the Laughing God. One us a warp-entity, the other the warp is anathema for. They are NOT the same, nor were they ever. It is a common mistake though.

The C'tan are powerful, but not very cunning, and not very far-reaching. They never were. They work through brute force right now, not subtle influence.

I thought the Deceiver is actually quite cunning, you know, the whole deceiving people thing...
The C'tan controlling the Ethereals is a cock and bull story. I don't belive it, but others do.
The Deceiver has no warp energy Psychic power stuff, so he would have to infleunce the Ethereals through talking to them. He would have to become an Ethereal to use his super " I know what your thinking" persuasion skills. But an Ethereal will probably have quite some contact with other Ethereals, so it would be a full-time Job trying to hold up the image and gain the status it takes to boss the others around, meaning he would not be able to do anything else at the same time, because the C'tan do fully manifest themselves in their Necrodermi, no matter what those bodies look like. Eg they can't be in two places at once.
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Offline Rasmus

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2005, 04:16:40 PM »
The C'tan are powerful, but not very cunning, and not very far-reaching. They never were. They work through brute force right now, not subtle influence.
I thought the Deceiver is actually quite cunning, you know, the whole deceiving people thing...
   Manipulative, not cunning. There is a difference. Especially in application.

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Offline GrumpyJester

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2005, 03:43:01 PM »
Quote
The C'tan are powerful, but not very cunning, and not very far-reaching. They never were. They work through brute force right now, not subtle influence.
The C'Tan working only through brute force and not subtle influence? Where do you base this on? To quote some things on the Deceiver:

"The Deceiver has spent millennia abroad in the galaxy gathering followers and interfering with attempts to disturb its brethern. The Messenger has living followers once more among the ranks of the Adeptus Mechanicus,"

"It has even succeeded in locating the potent Talismen of Vaul, great weapons forged by the Eldar before the Fall to destroy the C'Tan if the rose again. Through subtle machinations, the Deceiver has destroyed most of these awesome devices and placed the remainder beyond the reach of the Farseers for all time."

The Deceiver is both patient and subtle. As for him not being cunning, please explain. Most definitions of the word cunning I read seem to fit the Deceiver pretty well.

- Azulthar (who might be overreacting due to too many C'Tan-degrading posts and discussions).
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Offline Harmen

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Re: The Necrons and....well everyone
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2005, 04:15:41 PM »
Quote
Azulthar (who might be overreacting due to too many C'Tan-degrading posts and discussions).
That's ok, I'm being driven crazy with people talking like C'Tan as strong as Chaos gods or something.
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