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Author Topic: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...  (Read 9334 times)

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Offline KhorneIsMyDog

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40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« on: May 13, 2009, 03:26:16 PM »
Dark Eldar - They do drink the souls of any being they can grab their hands on, and their entire society is based on deception, violence, torture, pain and treachery. They are my #1 in my opinion (especially since they had the choice to give up their decadent ways like their Craftworld Cousins did).

Chaos Space Marines - Most hated, treacherous force in the galaxy (well according to the Imperium). Also one of the most dangerous, especially if united. Depending on which legion (although being caught by any of them is bad enough), if you get into their clutches you can expect a pritty awful end - For example in the extreme of the 4 gods
World Eaters - Some incredibly violent, gory and painful end full of rage and slaughter.

Emporer's Children - An EVEN MORE incredibly violent, but on the other hand maybe even "pleasurable" end than that being in the World Eater's clutches, but if Fabius Bile was on the side lines expect the "pleasure" side to evaporate quicker than water on a solar panel.

Plague Marines/Death Guard -Awful, slow diseased descent into death and then into a Plague Zombie. Probably the worst way to go being that your body would rot while you were still alive, not to mention you are being tortured at the same time in all likelyhood.

Thousand Sons - Probably just an endless tormented Spawn at the whim of a sorcerer, with a sutible "Tzentch(sp?) esque demenour. Eternity as a spawn sure would suck, and be incredibly painful to keep changing.

Not to mention Word Bearers torturing to please all the Chaos Powers in turn, or Black Legion just transforming you into a slave wher the slightest trangression involves an excruciating and violent death.

The Chaos Gods - Although considerd evil in many ways, a lot of fluff states some groups as interpriting them as less than what the Traitor Legions make them out to be. However, Slaanesh does eat the Eldar Souls, Khorne exists for nothing except violence and rage, Nurgle exists just to see things and races disentegrate painfully and Tzeentch just decides to do what he likes, with no sense of right and wrong. The counter argument of course could be made that They all do just what comes naturally, as they are the living embodiment that comes from the beings they are for lack of a better word "dreamed" up by.

The C'tan - Not much needed here considering the total OVER THE TOP amount of fluff on them, but 4 super powerful beings who dont really need much more power just deciding to wipe the Galaxy of all life because they can is a pritty nasty side. Plus the fact that they destroyed most of the Necrontyr before they accepted them shows that even their servants suffered horrendously before they were included (if you can call it that, more like enslaved) to their will.

(I did not involved the Tyranids simply because they dont seem to be aware of what they are doing is "right or wrong" and for the same reason the Orks, as they also don't reall know what is going on and have no real concept of "right and wrong" as we would see it).
If there is another race that you would deem "evil" that I have missed, feel free to add it in and explain your reason why as to who is the baddest race in 40k  8)

Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2009, 04:20:17 PM »
You know there's going to be massive existential discussions on what "evil" exactly is, right?

Just warning you. :P

Offline KhorneIsMyDog

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2009, 04:26:41 PM »
Hell yeah, bring it on  8) isnt this what the forum is all about after all?

Offline Benis

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2009, 05:18:18 PM »
isnt this what the forum is all about after all?

The definition of evil is really something for the discussion board, this board is for the discussion of 40k background.

I'm pretty sure I have seen very similar discussions about who's the baddest kid in the playground before on this board, did a search but the system leaves a lot to be wanted, anyway here is an old thread I found that you might think is worthy to read (don't post in it and resurrect it!).

Offline KhorneIsMyDog

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2009, 05:58:24 PM »
I wasnt actually refferring to the Topic or purpose of the Forum to determine "What evil was". I meant that after Sir Godspeed's post, that the discussion on "Evilest thing in 40k" was what the Warhammer Background forum was made for? Maybe Im getting it wrong, but I didnt mean to come across as opening up a debate that didn't have a place here  :'(

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2009, 06:30:15 PM »
Here's a couple of more recent threads that dance around the issue.
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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2009, 07:04:15 PM »
Well, since those threads are all dead... Heres the 'official' definition of something that is Evil, from Oxfords dictionary

"That which willingly and knowingly inflicts pain, suffering and destruction"

There are others, but their all about Immorality and so forth, and we all know that Morality is a socialy constructed ideal. Pain, Suffering and Destruction, on the other hand, are relitivly set in stone. Well, there ye are, have at it.
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Offline Grey seer Thanquol

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2009, 07:06:38 PM »
Every warhammer 40k race is a rather unsavoury chap, what-ho old bean? in his own special way.
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Offline Bumbles

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2009, 12:35:31 AM »
Chaos Space Marines... are at best insanely twisted schemers or sex mad perverts. The rest are actually just a little bit mad.
Not evil, because IMO evil requires a choice to act in that manner, whereas their actions can be evil, they themselves cannot be IMO.

Necrons? The same. They're little better then Tyranids. Forces of nature - uncaring.

Orks? Well.... they kill because culturally that's what they do. As with CSM, evil is what they do, not necessarily what they are.

Dark Eldar... well now. Evil is what they do too. But as has been said, they choose to do this. They enjoy what they do.

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2009, 04:29:31 AM »
Chaos Space Marines... are at best insanely twisted schemers or sex mad perverts. The rest are actually just a little bit mad.
Not evil, because IMO evil requires a choice to act in that manner, whereas their actions can be evil, they themselves cannot be IMO.

But Chaos Space Marines have in fact chosen to act in that manner, they actively rejected the ascetic lifestyle of the Loyalists in favour of debauchery and degeneracy (and good for them says I, but that's another matter). They have chosen to do what they do, which certainly qualifies them to be evil
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Offline TheBigBadPanda

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2009, 04:42:34 AM »
The race in 40k that is the most evil in that they chose to do it, and quite enjoy it, are in my opinion the dark eldar. The entire dark eldar culture is built on death, slavery, torture and fear. and as said they could have chosen not ot do this, they keep doing it since they like it
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Offline Sir_Godspeed

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2009, 04:49:11 PM »
Certain member of the Imperium could easily be more evil than a CSM, IMHO.

Offline Bumbles

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2009, 10:28:15 PM »
But Chaos Space Marines have in fact chosen to act in that manner, they actively rejected the ascetic lifestyle of the Loyalists in favour of debauchery and degeneracy (and good for them says I, but that's another matter). They have chosen to do what they do, which certainly qualifies them to be evil
A very valid point.
Some CSM are as mad as hatters others are in it for the LOLs.
Some DE are mad, and others are, again, in it for the laughs.

But "culturally evil"? That's the DE, they're the ones who set out to be evil because it "enhances the flavour" of souls/psychic energy. I assume the same would be true of CSM I suppose, but they're not "bwhahaahahah we're evil" but rather "mheehehehehehehe, we're pissing on the rules of society".

Offline The GrimSqueaker

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2009, 10:28:34 PM »
Certain member of the Imperium could easily be more evil than a CSM, IMHO.

If you go to the individual scale you're going to be arguing every which way as examples abound in all directions. However, the thread is considering the aggregate and thus it takes a really special person to sway the scales. 
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Offline Gornon

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2009, 11:38:42 PM »
Quote
but they're not "bwhahaahahah we're evil" but rather "mheehehehehehehe, we're pissing on the rules of society".

So they are like angst filled teenagers writing on bathroom walls to stick it to The Man? :)  Being silly aside, I see them as people who are pushing the boundaries of being human.  Feeling every emotion, delving into the far realms on knowledge, beating death, fully engaging our drive to destroy what is not ourselves.  And so on and so on.  Society is there to restrain humans and make us productive; they are throwing off those restraints, thus, choosing to become unproductive but for their own ends.  Hence, evil.  Of course, there is exceptions, some of their Lords think that throwing in with Chaos is the best bet for the human race.

The Gods themselves are not evil.  How can something formed of rage be nothing but rage?  Think of them more like earthquakes, hurricanes, or volcanoes.  They just do what they do; they are elemental.  And, sometimes, like a volcano, they can do something useful or 'good'.  Orks and nids for the same reasons.  You can't blame a fox for eating a hen anymore then you can blame an Ork for fighting or a nid for eating.

Dark Eldar are right up there with the CSM.  Keep in mind that the Dark God She Who Thirsts was made from the Dark Eldar.  Anyone worshiping She Who Thirsts is essentially mimicking the Dark Eldar, and we go back to the bit I typed about the CSM, the only difference being that the Dark Eldar are pretty much forced into doing what they do now, rather then doing it just for fun.

The Imperium is not intentionally evil.  Some of it is due to the Imperium's sheer size, like a person sitting on a bug.  Some of the evil is because the Imperium is doing what it thinks necessary to survive, and usually, said actions seem to be justified.  Some of the evil is just because an evil person has achieved power, which is nothing new in human history.

Eldar do evil actions because they think their race will survive by said actions and they are usually right.  They look out for number one, first.  They basically follow the Imperium's pattern, but they can be more slick about it.  In some ways, that makes them worse.  The Eldar know what they are doing, but still do it, while the Imperium's reaction is more of an animalistic fear.

Tau are trying to help the galaxy.  Their actions are not evil, but their results are.  Take a look at New Imperialism.  The attitude is the same.  "We know better than you do about what is good for you because our culture is better, we will replace your culture with ours.  We prefer non-violence, but we will do what we have to to make your lives better."  Its ignorance combined with arrogance and while the motives are good, their actions often are not.
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Offline Andro Ist Keine Schwedischen

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2009, 11:40:07 PM »
No species has caused more destruction, death and suffering then the Imperium.  And the fact that it thinks of itself as being the good guys, despite not giving much of a damn about its citizens just reinforces the evil that is at its heart.

Not to say the average human is evil.  But as a whole, the Imperium is a terrible entity of oppression and genocide.

Orks would come a close second, but are discounted from being considered truely evil due to their nature - it's less being evil, more to do with a completely different outlook on society, and a lack of understanding of other species' physical limitations.  Not to mention the fact they are artifically created and programmed to behave that way.

Heck, every race in 40k is evil.  There are no good guys, at least when it comes to entire races and organisations (as the individual is practically meaningless in that universe).  Even the Tau would be considered monsters by current standards, what with mass invasions, sterilisations of rebellious conquered people, mass murder of those who resist them, oppressive caste systems...

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Offline Gornon

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2009, 11:54:38 PM »
Quote
No species has caused more destruction, death and suffering then the Imperium.

The Necrons would like to have a word with you.  Also, we don't know just how much damage the Eldar did before the fall.  I mean, think about it.  A whole, massive empire of Dark Eldar with the galaxy at their fingertips.  Probably not very pleasant times for the rest of the galaxy.

Quote
And the fact that it thinks of itself as being the good guys, despite not giving much of a damn about its citizens just reinforces the evil that is at its heart.

GW held a big campaign called Medusa V where  the entire goal of the Imperium was to save the people on the planet.  The correct choice would have been to launche virus bombs at the world, killing off a whole lot of Chaos Marines, Tau, Eldar, ect, which would not have been a bad trade off for several million civilians.  However, the Imperium did the right thing and evacuated the people.  Other, similar stories abound of Imperial forces fighting off the odds to save the common person.  Just as many examples exist of the Guard officer who just sends in more men or the Space Marine who shells the refugee camp because there are orks in the grounds.  Its really hard to label the Imperium as anything, as the Imperium is so diverse, its hard to pinpoint just what the Imperium is.  Many times, the only common tie is Emperor-worship.  It seems, that for every despotic hellhole, there are worlds that are not so bad to live on at all.  To summarize, I think the Imperium does care about the people, but its huge bureaucracy and sheer size means that often, millions die because of a math error or something.  Hence, the person sitting on a bug example.  The Imperium is evil though sheer clumsiness.  I often think of Stalin's Collective Farms.  Many people died as the Soviet Union changed its farming sytem, but I don't think the Soviets meant to, nor wanted those people to die.
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Offline Lachdonin

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2009, 12:11:39 AM »
Based on the text book definition of Evil, i would say we have a close tie between Dark Eldar and Necrons, or more properly, the C'Tan. Both torture and destroy because A; Its fun, and B; It makes their food taste better.

Chaos, in all its forms on the other hand are simply self serving. For the most part it is simply a system of worship. Sacrifice, torture and the like are tools to an end. If there were ways to acheive that end without such acts, they would likely not partake in them.

I like how Orks were described in an interview with one of the programmers for WAR... Their Soccer Hoolagans. All they want to do is fight. They dont care with who, and they have no long term goals, they just want to duke it out. Give them all Nerf guns and foam swords, and they'd be just as content as with shoota's and choppa's. That doenst make them evil, it just makes them violent.

Tyranids, likewise, are not evil. They are just hungry, for lack of a better description. Their like locust's, moving from field to field, eating their fill and moving on.

The Eldar, Tau and Imperium, likewise, are not Evil, though they sometimes resort to evil acts. if given the choice between saving ones own life and shooting a baby, most people would choose the latter. It is society that instills the idea that this is wrong. The Imperium, Tau and Eldar may overtly seem evil because of their racist acts, genocide and violence, but these are acts of survival in a dangerous galaxy. They do not go out of their way to make people suffer, only doing so when their own survival is at stake.
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Offline Shaviv

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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2009, 12:22:53 AM »
Chaos Space Marines... are at best insanely twisted schemers or sex mad perverts. The rest are actually just a little bit mad.
Not evil, because IMO evil requires a choice to act in that manner, whereas their actions can be evil, they themselves cannot be IMO.

[skipped Necrons]

Orks? Well.... they kill because culturally that's what they do. As with CSM, evil is what they do, not necessarily what they are.

Dark Eldar... well now. Evil is what they do too. But as has been said, they choose to do this. They enjoy what they do.
I agree with you here on DE, no question. Orks also enjoy what they do, but it's not that they choose to fight or not fight - fighting is in the nature of the Ork. Orks are like the Necrons or Tyranids in that way (Necrons kill, Tyranids eat, Orks fight), only Orks are much more innovative and entertaining about it.

As for CSM, I thought the distinguishing trait between renegade Marines (overall, Marines having shrugged off their allegiance to the Imperium) and Chaos Marines is allegiance to the powers of Chaos, which sort of requires that the follower continue to exert his will to continue doing deeds to serve those powers. The exceptions would be persons having received too many "gifts" to be sensible, or Berserkers of Khorne, the prefrontal cortex of each man's brain having been removed (along with other alterations).

A Marine who hadn't been gifted into thrashing and drooling insensibility would still be ethically liable for his actions in pursuit of the affections of his patron deities. Hence, I think the term "evil" does apply for many, if not all, of them.
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Re: 40k - The MOST EVIL, In your opinion?...
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2009, 10:09:18 AM »
It bugs me how many people in this thread have mistakenly asserted that the Dark Eldar created Slaanesh, or even suggested that the pre-fall Eldar were anything like the Dark Eldar.  Both of these ideas are false.

The Dark Eldar were originally mostly youths, and other individuals who had been raised in the pre-fall Eldar society, but were not yet old enough to really be a part of it.  Asdrubael himself  had been groomed as a sacrifice in fact.

They were born of the society that created Slaanesh, but they took a very different route with it.  Pre-fall Eldar, for instance, weren't torturers, or slavers, or gladiators, everything the DE are.

Also, how can you say Orks and Tyranids aren't evil because it's just in their nature to be the way they are, it's part of their society.  And yet in t he same breath you say the Dark Eldar are evil, because in order to survive in their society they are forced to take up a way of life just as horrid and destructive.

Now, I'm not saying I think the Dark Eldar AREN'T the most evil, in their way, but that you cannot discount the others for the same reason you're condemning them.  Tyranids represent an unfathomable intelligence whose goal is every bit as evil as the C'Tan or any other race out there.

Likewise, the Chaos Gods may just be following their nature, but their nature IS evil, so how can they not be evil?

That's my take anyways.

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