Topic: "Counts As" army?

[WarpSpider]

OK, this may be a non-question from a rules standpoint, but I'd sort of like to know if this would cause any aesthetic distaste from veterans...

Suppose I wanted to field a loyalist army of Marines, but use the Chaos rules because they better reflect how I want the army to operate?

For example: I like the old Death Company army that you could play with permission. Current Blood Angels rules do not allow for anything like it. However, Plague Marines are pretty darn close. However, I hate Chaos, and Nurgle in particular from an aesthetic standpoint. So...if I plunked down what are obviously Blood Angles, and played them under Chaos rules - would you care? Assume that all the models are equivalent, and I have some acceptable explanation for why the army works this way (ex: "My Librarian (Sorceror) has a power called "Call of Faith" (Gift of Chaos) and can instantly convince anyone of the truth of the Emperor's righetousness, turning them on their erstwhile allies in a zealous fury. To represtent this, if the power succeeds I replace your model with this 'Living Imperialis' model, under my control").

Assume that from a rules standpoint, I'm playing straight out of the Chaos codex, not mixing in anything...I'm just not using the Chaos models or names, etc. Any strenuous objection, aesthetic or mechanical?

[Sanctjud]

Friendly games all the way.

Competitions/tourney is dependent on your gaming group.

Competitions in GW hosted events... you'll need to check with the organizer...

IMO,(for the GW tourney) if they have Blood Angels iconagraphy... and lots of blood angels details on them... they have to be blood angels... they have their own 'codex'... and have their own models...

Now, if you called them renegades, and like hacked up the iconography or paint crosses/ 'X' 's across the Blood Angels insignia... that would work very well.

Other than that, I just suggest you stick to friendly games... were 'count as' is most viable.


PS... I LOVE PLAGUE MARINES HOLISTICALLY... they were great and they are great and they will be great from now til the chaos gods take over the whole galaxy...


My 7 Cents.

[Col.Gravis]

Agreed with Sanctjud, for friendlies within your normal group of opponents dependent on them it should'nt be a problem at all I would'nt imagine.

Local and GW events are more tricky and dependent on the organisers, certainly it's a rule of the UK GTs that if an army is say 'Blood Angels' modelled and painted as such you must use the Blood Angels list - this even goes for Docturines, a Cadian Regiment should use the Cadian Docturine set. If this is enforced completely thoguh I couldnt say.

[WarpSpider]

IMO,(for the GW tourney) if they have Blood Angels iconagraphy... and lots of blood angels details on them... they have to be blood angels... they have their own 'codex'... and have their own models...

Now, if you called them renegades, and like hacked up the iconography or paint crosses/ 'X' 's across the Blood Angels insignia... that would work very well.My 7 Cents.

That's a really good counter-argument, and I agree. But suppose they are painted some other colors and lack the iconography? That's closer to what I want to do, I just picked a codex chapter as an example.

What I want is something that uses the Chaos rules, but falls into the Loyalist catagory. Somewhat like Soul Drinkers, but without the mutation or hatred of the Imperium. Fluff-wise, they were swallowed by the warp during the Siege of Terra era, but remained loyal and uncorrupted all this time and have recently re-emerged. Because they are veterans and 10,000 years old like the fallen Chapters, they have the same experience and skill (stats), but not the corruption. Really all I'd be doing is renaming the units, using different but equivalent models (bases, size, etc.), and renaming skills and powers to more reflect their uncorrupted nature. It comes down to me liking the rules for Chaos better, but hating the fluff.

Lest you think me a powergamer - it is simply that I have been with the game since Rogue Trader, and the armies and rules have changed so many times that a) my models are not always WYSIWYG (and I WILL NOT change beautifully painted and converted models on the whim of a game designer) b) they no longer function the way they once did, and I miss that. I have many armies. Most I use with the right rules and paint/convert/build to agree with the rule set of the day. This one army no longer works in a characterful way with the current loyalist rule set. Thoughts? Thanks!

[f.desrochers]

What I want is something that uses the Chaos rules, but falls into the Loyalist catagory.

I do this with my Relictors / Excommunicate Relictors. Every single model is converted in such a way that it can pass for Imperial or Chaos. Most everything in the army is "counts as" with a few obvious exceptions - the Land Raider and Dreadnaughts. The rest of the army is themed around the heavy use of Servitors and "counts as." Most are still WIP.

Librarian General, Assault Marines, Chaso Space Marines, all coverted by mixing bits and parts.

Arco-flegellants = Lesser daemons
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/f_desrochers/Daemons-Arcoflegellants.jpg

Gun servitors = 1k Sons and Librarian guiding them
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/f_desrochers/Servitors-1kSons.jpg

Heavy Gun servitors = Obliterators
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/f_desrochers/Oblits.jpg

Daemohosts = Spawn
http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee260/f_desrochers/DHosts-Spawn2.jpg

;francois

[Sanctjud]

What ever you do, they need to look the part...

If they are gonna be loyalists turn renegade... then they need to be identified as such for official events...

Painted 8 cross star... eye or horus for undivided... even SPIKY BITS, or replacing a squad of marines with some chaos models or replacing some shoulder pads or back packs.

If you want to do Soul Drinkers they should be modeled as such... even they have extensive mutations...

Etc. etc. etc.

If you want to do minimum work and just write some fluff about how these really clean looking guys are actually chaos for official GW events... it's not gonna get you any brownie points...

I don't think you a powergamer... you just want to experience another army, cause being stuck in one place gets boring over awhile...
From my experience... I started playing Deathguard and still am... certainly I haven't been alive as long as you... but for 6 years I havn't wavered....
Right now, I'm converting Chaos Tau and Chaos Eldar, both of them opperate from their respective codicies and also can be 'adequate' 'count-as' in my chaos force.
I bridge the gap between the (for example) Tau and the Chaos codex... like having my shas'o corrupted by nurgle and have alot of tenticles and pus coming out of him and lots of Nurgle insignia over him.... he works as my Shas'o in my tau army and an obliterator in my CHaos army, due to the multiple weapons on him.

For my Chaos Eldar... my shining spears are modeled in theme to my plague marines, esp. the head gear.. their jetbikes are corrupted and have growth on them, and lots of eye coming out... they opperate as shining spears in my Eldar army and will represent Chaos Space Marine 'Bikers' in my Chaos army...

Shameless: http://www.40konline.com/index.php?topic=145682.80

Obviously for some I'll have to ask my opponent first... but otherwise, most of my conversion work both ways....

Anyway, good luck with it... Chaos is an awesome army.

My 7 Cents.

[WarpSpider]

Nice models guys! Thanks for your insight.

I don't want to play or identify my Marines as Renegades, they're loyal. The Inquisition would have no more questions for them than for Ultramarines. But I think that should I ever play a GW tournament (about as likely as the sun burning out before lunch today) I'd just identify them as Chaos Undivided (is that even a proper designation anymore?) and be done with it. They are not spikey, but to my knowledge thay just have to be GW models, not X specific GW model. Then again, if they do have to be exact, it's just one more reason in a long list to avoid GW tournaments.

[Todosi]

Paint color has nothing to do with the rules you are using.  Just be sure your opponenet knows what rules you are using for your army and be sure that everything is explained (i.e. Terminators are Havocs or whatever) 

As for tournaments each one will be different so check with the organizers ahead of time and make sure every opponent you face is aware of what rules you are playing by.

I think it's a grand idea!

[Wombats]

More power to you, its a great chance to go nuts converting. 

Just make sure the distinction is very, very distinct. 

It will make the difference between being respected as a fluffy gamer with a kick arse army and some cheeseball trying to trick his opponents. 

[nurgle5]

I'd love to use easterlings to make an asian-style WHFB army. How far do you reckon I'd get?

[Sanctjud]

Well, you'd get no pictures taken of you by GW at official GW events.  And GW stores would be hesitent to allow you to use em in WHFB.


Otherwise, friendly games, go crazy, IMO, the LoTR models small scale...so look a little whimpy.

My 7 Cents.

[Bumbles]

I'd have no problems with it in a fun game - hell a large part of my army is "counts as" because DE Wyches are fugly.

[Baldemyr]

I like the idea-would have no problem at all.  Counts as armies are talked about all the time and require only the other players agreement right?

[Sanctjud]

Yes, in friendly games.

Tourney, you need the ok from the organizer if it's a "SERIOUS", 'count as' army.


My 7 Cents.