Topic: "Do you mind if I fleet in the movement phase to save time?"

[ESHARP]

Since I usually field several units of 32 fleeting critter with my hive fleet, I usually only move the leading elements of the fleeting units with my opponent's permission, then I do the fleet movement during the shooting phase, moving the lead element first then catching the rest of the unit up. This save me a lot of time without any problem of being accused of twisting the rules.

[faithlessmonkeigh]

no, this is something i dont allow my opponent to do, it is meant to be done in the shooting phase, so they can do it in the shooting phase.
advantages are infered as others have posted.

i think that weather you mean it to, or even dont know it to be cheating or not, it still is.

you can gain advantage using this without even thinking about it, fleeting was made to be rolled in the shooting phase for a reason, i mean would you let someone choose the range of their guess weapons and drop down ordanace in the movement phase?

no you silly person.

if youre a nid player and have a million models well then you can just deal with the repercussions of that, its not my problem.
sure in some circumstances - like if there was no terrain.
well then i would be lenient, but in the majority of cases (since i only play to win - who plays to lose?) i wont allow it.

faithless

[Shas'Oink]

harsh words... but i must say incredibly true.

i mean, if you want to fleet (in other words conduct shooting) in the movement phase... then why cant i shoot before i conduct my movement? oh, because im firing a gun? but im still only doing what you are? or why not simply conduct your assualt before you finish your shooting... i mean... its rather funny how there are some rules that you will never break.. and yet others that are quite happily "overlooked".

so the question is:

which rules are you allowed to break and which are you not?

[srintuar]

i mean... its rather funny how there are some rules that you will never break.. and yet others that are quite happily "overlooked".

so the question is:

which rules are you allowed to break and which are you not?

Well, its easy to see why it is desirable to minimize movement actions.
Moving minis is time consuming, robotic, subject to error, and all-around a waste of time.
So breaking what is logically on big move into two pieces doubles the time you spend picking up and putting down models, and doubles the net error on how far you moved.

When you have three broods of 30 gaunts, moving pieces 180 times a round is a pain, and lowering that down to 90 moves is obviously desirable.

Now, GW didnt really think about this when they designed the movement system. I would much prefer if they simply moved fleet into the movement phase, and stipulated that if you fleeted in the move phase you may not shoot or take any actions in the shooting phase.

That said, if your opponent doesnt lke that house rule, you just have to play the official way.

I normally insist upon playing the official way, and move the edge models to form a box at first, so that I minimize the amount of wasted time.

[spiderbite]

The people I tend to game with (myself included of course) follow the rules as closely as possible - especially when it's something clearly defined such as when to conduct fleet.

However, having said that, I know lots of people who have 'house' rules. AKA interpreting/bending rules.

[TheOnlySpiral]

Lonewolf: I honestly do not see any sort advantadge here.  If it breaks the rules a little bit, but speeds up the game at the expense of nothing, I see honestly no problem. It's like rolling different weapons in shooting with different dice, or rolling a group of Vehicle table hits at once.  Nothing is lost!

[Maleficum]

Yes, it makes the game less tedios for both parts. And let's face it, it's really only tyranids that have massive amounts of models that fleet..

Eldar and Dark eldar can stick to the normal rules, IMO.

[YuenglingDragon]

I think the rhetoric is getting a little angry, gents.  Lets all speak civilly.

Faithless, It's not just my problem.  You'll find that it is your problem, too, when my turn takes twice as long as yours because I have to move 50+ models for a second time.  I think the question we should be asking is do I gain more by fleeting in my movement phase then you gain then you lose by watching me move in two different phases for upwards of half an hour (maybe even more) in 2000 point games.  Do I?

Myles, my point was that each method has a distinct advantage.  If GW changed the fleet rules with a downloadable PDF for everyone then I would just be switching advantages.  It's kind of a wash either way.

[Markay]

Lonewolf: I honestly do not see any sort advantadge here.  If it breaks the rules a little bit, but speeds up the game at the expense of nothing, I see honestly no problem. It's like rolling different weapons in shooting with different dice, or rolling a group of Vehicle table hits at once.  Nothing is lost!

If you do your fleet and movement together you dont have to even consider the movement of your troops, you just know you can move them your 6+d6 in any direction you like. If you play by the rules you have to use your movement phase to make a decision (do you go for that closer unit, the cover because you may not make it, or maybe the expensive unit 11 inches away that would mow you down if you dont reach them in combat). The fleet move is meant to have some sort of gamble to it and using the two together means you can do it brainlessly, the advantage being that you can find out what your total movement is and then if you cant reach combat you can peg it to cover, whereas you are meant to do commit to your movement in your movement phase and then get the extra in the shooting which is more of a gamble.

Even extra d6 movement elsewhere has disadvantages, khorne do it in the movement phase but run to the nearest for example. It seems that rather than people seeing an advantage because they want to, its people who use it ignoring the whole risk involved if you play it properly. If you are really worried about wasting time moving models then just do as people have suggested and move 2 or 3 models and then move them all after the fleet move in the shooting phase.

[Benandorf]

On the other hand, if you use fleet in the movement phase, then you do not have the ability to adapt to a bad round of shooting, etc.  If you do it at the end of the shooting phase, you can react much better to that squad of Howling Banshees survivng a ton of shots, or those firewarriors that managed to stand their ground.

I think, in the end, there are advantages to both sides to counter out the other, and the speed of the game benefits greatly.

[mikesusername]

actually im the one doing it, and my oponents let me.  however because i distain cheeting its only under certain conditions.


1) that i clearly announce my intent to go in a given direction.  if i come up short on the fof roll, i still have to move that direction, or at leas i have to still move 6 inches in that direction and then may move the fof from that point in another.

here are the beneifts to doing it this way.

1) no cheeting.  i dont get to see how far i'll go before i make my regular move which would be locked in by the time i went to do my fof.

2) faster game play.  20 guardians is a be-atch to move and space out twice.

3) more accurate assaults*


* it is for this reason that my opponents will often desire that i do all this at the same time.

in the moving of models there is often a deal of inacuracy, regardless of how careful you are.  often when it looks like an assualt will be close, we will state our intent to charge at the begining of our turn,  and then in the assaut phase measure the total distance that would be moved to determine if the unit would assault.  if it succeeds fine, if it fails we move it the distance i woul have had to move given the stated intenitons.  obiovusly we only do this if its going to be a close assaut where half an inch or an inch might make a big difference.

this aproach is especially usefull if alot of models are moving through a serpentine like path to reach assault.  as we can simply check by winding the tape measure and then measuring 2 inches of the furthest model to reach assault to see how many get to participate.

[Mr.Peanut (Turtleproof)]

There's no tactical benefit that I'm aware of from combining movement.  To say that using Fleet and movement at the same is equal to shooting before movement is preposterous in most situations.  With shooting, I could potentially wipe-out a unit and then move into the empty space with another unit (or the same unit) which could be vital when an objective is involved.  Since Fleet occurs in the same phase, it makes no difference whether or not I combine Fleet because I could use Fleet after all of my other shooting.

Generally, it does nothing but save time.  I routinely tell new players- explaining that it is technically illegal- that combining movement and Fleet saves time and increases precision.  Less measuring, less model moving, one less opportunity for the distance moved to be fudged.

[mikesusername]

the tactical benefit  is the following.

if i roll low on my fof roll then, instead of moving out into the open perhaps in the hopes of rolling a bit higher on the fof roll, i will simply keep my models back behind terrain.  if i had instead moved out 6 inches, anticipating assault, and then proceded to roll a 1 for my fof, then i'd bee stuck in the open.  however if i do it all at once i can simply elect to remain behind cover and wiat for the next turn when i might roll higher.

the tactical advantage in this case is huge, especially with such squads as harlequins or banshees which cannot stand up to a unit moving forward and rapid fireing them becasue they did not make assault.

[web ghost]

IMO it is a game of inches.  The scenarios previously stated (to cover or to charge, in short, amongst others) obviously have import to the game.  If there is nothing going on, like in turn one where Joe Nid simply wants to push everything forward and there is nothing that could possibly happen, then fine.  Even though I like to think of myself as laid back and like to think that I play the game as such, I get pretty anal over inches.  FoF in the movement phase gives an advantage and shouldn't be done.  It is a tight game. 

Should Tau be allowed to use their jump packs in the shooting phase?  JSJ?  basically I know I'll move forward and shoot and then retreat.  So should I just add six inches to the range of my weapon and stay put?  Obviously not.  amphetamine parrot happens in the shooting phase.  It affects the game.

Time?  we all know that the game takes longer than we would like (putting up with your weird gaming friends is something else isn't it?).  Most of my games are a full evening event (what with beers and the smoke breaks and the pizzas and the rules clarifications.)   To shave off some time by FoF in the movement phase where it doesn't matter is fine, but to potentially affect the game in the interests of time is counter productive IMO.  Why save five minutes when you've invested 4, 5, 6 hours?   To sit through a Guard shooting phase is hellish.  "oh wait, I forgot to shoot with my second reserve command squad infantry platoon".  It is time consuming.  Should we then do something like "allright, why don't you just make 3 armor saves per model and lets get on with it"  no.  (stupid, extreme example) 

despite the  tone of my post, I'm not super adamant about it.  I just think that with moderate to veteran games it does make a difference,  And if there is so much dissention/debate about the issue, then playing by the rules is probably the best bet.

later WG

[Farceseer Syranaul]

If I were to be asked.  I would request that they declare which direction they wanted to move before that unit moves, and before any fleet rolls have been made.  That way the main advantage is resolved.

Ugh, I'm tired.  I sure hope that made sense.
~ Good Night

[The Reborn]

This only really becomes an issue if your opponent is rolling for fleet before other units not allowed fleet have moved.  This is giving him tactical information that the rules of the game do not allow him to have at that point in the turn.

In which case, your response should rightly be to say no....but explain why of course...

If he moves all other units first, then ok.

Sometimes, as with declaring charges, your opponent might only be wanting to either save time or remind himself to move rather than forget next time after all the excitement of shooting makes him forget...

-Reborn.

[Pyroh]

There are some possibilities of, especially with D6 forced movements to nearest enemy etc. I really don´t want to concentrate on a fact whether it occasionally won´t hurt me. Not mentioning some players tried on me to do this and later they wanted to shoot in the shooting phase - maybe they really forgot. Maybe not though.

In usual friendly game I don´t care much, if there are very few units to fleet, I don´t care either, but in tournament games, where a lot of units are involved, I have to concentrate on my issues, not on the fact, whether I´m not being cheated.

[Sheepz]

Personally, I wouldn't care too much. I never even thought about it. But if I decided not to let them do it and someone called me anal, things would get unpleasant very quickly. The rules are laid out in a set order for a reason and so I'd really have no problem doing it either way.

As stated, at crunch time it matters, at others it doesn't. But where on the line can you accurately jugde a crunch time? Even on the first turn, if you roll a six for say, Hormagaunts, you'd consider hurling them at the enemy and losing a few to assault next turn. If you rolled a one, you may consider moving them behind area terrain. Not much closer to the enemy, but no casualties as you haven't committed.

At the end of the day, it gives a percieved advantage. And if the lesson of mounting Paetorians on square bases (for those who remember *that* thread) has taught us anything, its percieved advantages that are the worst

[bishops finger]

no, this is something i dont allow my opponent to do, it is meant to be done in the shooting phase, so they can do it in the shooting phase.
advantages are infered as others have posted.

i think that weather you mean it to, or even dont know it to be cheating or not, it still is.

you can gain advantage using this without even thinking about it, fleeting was made to be rolled in the shooting phase for a reason, i mean would you let someone choose the range of their guess weapons and drop down ordanace in the movement phase?

no you silly person.

if youre a nid player and have a million models well then you can just deal with the repercussions of that, its not my problem.
sure in some circumstances - like if there was no terrain.
well then i would be lenient, but in the majority of cases (since i only play to win - who plays to lose?) i wont allow it.

faithless

agree completely with above sentiment,the rules are clear in this case for a reason,while i dont care what two consenting friends get up to,i would be extremely unhappy with anyone who decided to start throwing round veiled insults at me for wanting to stick to the rules..very unsporting.
maybe next time we could re-wright the rules so that i can have 3 rounds at once, before the other gets a go! hell why not keep the models in their cases and just roll a dice see who has higher lol the higher wins yippee! very quick and easy to play

[NidFood]

There's no tactical benefit that I'm aware of from combining movement.  To say that using

Common example:
32 termagaunts are 15" away from an enemy unit.  The Nid player would like to assault that unit.  However, there is cover off to the side that the gaunts can hide in for a turn to gain a cover save.  Now, when you roll for fleet greatly changes how you move --

Rolling for fleet in the movement phase:
You roll for fleet and get a '1'.  Well heck, you can't assault, let's go hide in that cover.  OR
You roll for fleet and get 3+, which means you can assault next turn.

Rolling for fleet in the shooting phase:
You move 6" towards the enemy unit, hoping to assault.  Shooting phase comes around and you roll a '1'.  Well...crap, now you can't get in cover and you can't assault and you can't shoot.

If you roll for fleet in the movement phase, there is no negative effects for this gamble.  You know how far you can move in total, which is an advantage.  Does it slow the game down?  Yes.  That much?  Not really.  Most games take 2 hours anyway, what's an extra 10-15 minutes?  Chances are the Nid player will be assaulting turns 2-3 anyway, and it's not like the Nid player is rolling buckets of dice in the shooting phase, so the first few turns for a Nid player are spent moving models, while the first few turns of other armies are spent rolling dice.  I don't see anyone complaining how painful it is to watch a guard player spend so much time rolling all their weapons for the first few turns.  It all balances out in the end.