Harlequin Revision - EO!

Started by Rasmus, June 20, 2003, 11:13:23 AM

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Rasmus

Thing is; GW does not want niche players. At all. They would like to reduce the game to two armies. Good/Evil. However, the structure is now allowing for Gooder/Good/Evil/Eviler or something to that effect, which is the way they like it.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

sn toter

Quote from: Rasmus on July  7, 2011, 02:05:09 AM
Thing is; GW does not want niche players. At all. They would like to reduce the game to two armies. Good/Evil. However, the structure is now allowing for Gooder/Good/Evil/Eviler or something to that effect, which is the way they like it.

ugh.  That really sucks.  The WH40k concept has SO much potential that you'd think they would WANT to cater to as much of a customer base as possible.  Seriously, how hard would it be to release a Harlie list in a WD?  It wouldn't take much time, they already HAVE some newer harly models and for those OOP like a Solitaire it would just fall on the gamer to find one or get creative.  Oh, AND they'd have a bump in WD sales for that issue.  Seems like a no-brainer to me.

I stopped playing WH40k in the beginning of 3rd edition and am JUST now getting back into it.  So much has changed! I got into the L5R CCG and it's story is based on the tournament results and player choices, so I guess I'm just spoiled with another hobby where the producer actually caters to the player. 

Rasmus

Oh I can tell you why, but it would be OT for this thread. It is just about short-term gain and long-term cover for these guys. I don't blame them; it brings the most profit for the least amount of work, but yeah, it does not exactly cater to everyone.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

benmannen

#1143
Hello Harlequins, I was just made aware of the fan based Harlequin codex posted in this forum. I read through it and really liked it. Seems quite balanced, maybe a bit limited in the unit choices but varied enough. And with all the new Dark Eldar stuff out and lots of Eldar Forgeworld goodies available you could convert a really nice looking army.

But I already have an "inofficial" complete army, Forgeworlds Renegades of Chaos, that I can't bring to tournaments, but at least noone objects playing against it in friendly games...

So my question is, what are the reactions you get playing with army. It seems like it could be very powerful with Harlequins deepstriking all over the place being allowed to assault right away? Risky, but could pay off greatly.

Also, is it fun to field the list? It definitely will be fun to build.

Grateful for some thoughts before I start building it.

Rasmus

I have had positive reactions whenever I field my Harlequins, regardless of if I use the Eldar, DE or Halrequin codex.
I have not played the Harlequin List in major tournament-play since 2006 or something, but ti was well-received and all the playtesting bore our, and noone complained about overpowering of "fan-dex creep".

I have always played very mobile with loads of bikes and two venoms, along with infiltrating mimes, but the whole deepstriking all over the field was never much of an option for me since 3rd ed.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

benmannen

That sounds good, I decided to use your codex and put together a 1750p list. I have 21 Painted Harlequins, 8 Jetbikes and an Archon that will work well as a Harlequin HQ. So almost half the army is done  :)

I just ordered a Hornet to use as Mocking Bird:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Eldar/ELDAR-HORNET.html

I'd like to use Jetbikes too, but at 47p a pop, the units get insanely expensive considering a Reaver cost 22p... A question, the Mimes seems really nice, but they have no armor and no plasma grenades... right. Since they mostly will me moving in cover how do you keep them from being slaughtered when assaulting? They will pretty much always strike last...

Here are some pics of my Harlies so far:

http://stefan13.typepad.com/blog/2011/05/harlequin-reaver-jetbikes-finished.html

http://stefan13.typepad.com/blog/2011/05/harlequin-clown-archon.html

http://stefan13.typepad.com/blog/2011/05/lincon-2011-harlequins-1750p-list.html

Wyldhunt

My opponents generally either like the codex or feel it is too powerful, but I think a bit of the latter is due to them not knowing how to face a new army yet.  I've been wanting to see how they fair against grey knights as they're both extremely elite armies.

Deepstriking with Mask of the Dark Veil is a lot of fun, but it is even riskier for you than other deepstrike-heavy armies since, if you fail to get in range to do some damage, you will probably be well within your opponent's range for a counterattack in the following turn.  Also, this is the only time I ever find myself using the Solitaire in larger games because he's simply too pricey to march up the field.

I typically use Mimes as an anti-armor unit rather than an anti-infantry unit. Their numerous attacks make them roughly as good at dealing wounds as a wych squad, but they're even more fragile outside of cover.  I almost always outflank them and use them to hit either stationary infantry shooty units (devestators and such) or, if I can, vehicles. Haywire grenades and I get along extremely well, and a fusion pistol from a Master Mime accompanying them doesn't hurt either. 

Typically, I run a tricked out Shadowseer in a squad of ten harlies with all their goodies (minus the troup master.) This is a heck of a powerful unit that will be very safe all game until you start nearing charging distance, and I usually find that my venom-mounted squads take the heat off of this unit at that point. Mimes usually seem to come in at the perfect moment to either throw themselves at a squad of infantry (thus tying them up and preventing shooting) or at a vehicle (thus encouraging the stunned crew inside to step out to attack my mimes and thus expose themselves to my harlies.) 


benmannen

Below are some pics of my Spiritwalker, my slightly tweaked list is about 75% painted now, and after 2 games, where I got totally crushed, was a lot of fun. Some choices had to be dropped unfortunately, Jetbikes for instance, but it opened up for a lot of more units.

More pics to follow.






Zilverscale

Rasmus great work on the Harlie codex!

Just playtested it against some friends :)
They were pleasantly surprised ;)

Just 1 minor thing.
I think that Shadowseer and the Warlocks should have Psyker added to their special rules.
My friend pointed this out when it was my turn (was using Spiritwalker), we houseruled it that they both count as psykers, officially only the Shadowseer would be counted as a psyker (due to wording in Veil of Tear Eldar codex) and seeing as both my seers were running into combat my 2 Spiritwalkers would have had to roll for wraithsight (officially).

PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rasmus

Good spot. I will look at that when I do the next revision. It is of course supposed to be the way you describe it - it is simply an oversight.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

benmannen

I've only played two games so far, but one thing that I have been wondering about are the Mimes.

They have no armor at all. And no Plasma Grenades. All their abilities promotes running in and assaulting through cover. BUT since they have no offensive grenades, they will always strike last. With NO armor save and T3 they die like no tomorrow.

And they are quite pricey at 12pts.

A suggestion is to get they some kind of grenade solution. Either the Mimic can have a Phantasm Grenade Launcher or just give them all Plasma Grenades included in the current cost. I like them having Haywire Grenades by default so keep that  :)

Also the HQs and Elite HQs have quite low WS and very low BS. I understand you wanting to stay away from too much WS 7 since WS 3 troops will hit them on 6s of they have the Distortion-Field upgrade. Which they normally will have. But I think at least the Great Harlequin could be WS 7 and the Solitaire could be 8 or even 9. A Succubus is 8...

BS 5 or 6 would be nice on the HQs, 4 on all of them seems a bit too low.

Other than that I love the Codex. I've got a little bit more than 1800p built now and plan to expand it even more. Thanks for putting in all the hard work. It made for a fun new project for me!

And on a last note I really like that you have underpowered them a little bit, that makes it playable against most opponents. Few would want to play against an overpowering unofficial Codex more than once. And it's more of a challenge to do well with it. 

Wyldhunt

Some plasma grenades on the mimes would be nice, yes, though I personally don't find that I have a problem with them not having assault grenades very often.  I usually either outflank them and come on the board where there's no terrain in my way to the target or else keep them back as an objective holder while hiding in terrain for much of the game. When it does come time to assault, I just make sure that they move/fleet completely out of cover before assaulting.  They're sort of like Mandrakes like that.

As for the HQ's, I could see their WS being a little higher if you really wanted, but functionally, it doesn't make much difference.  You pretty much always slaughter enemy infantry with your standard harlequins alone.  The hq's and elites just sort of add a couple of wounds to make it harder for the enemy to retaliate. 

Out of curiosity, what specifically seems underpowered or downplayed about the codex? Currently, I'm using it with a few minor nerfs/disallowed upgrades because I tend to be a bit too powerful for most of my opponents when I do use such upgrades. (The upgrades, if anyone is wondering, are the warlock and the benethai, and I also nerfed the mockingbird's guns and upped the cost of my mimes to 15 each.)  I really love this codex, but it certainly never seems too weak to me.

benmannen

There are a couple of things, but I want to emphasize that I don't think any of these should change... I like it as it is.

The Mockingbirds main gun is AP -, which makes it always make a Glancing hit with -3, so it can basically never destroy a vehicle. Unless it's target has taken a couple of hits before.

The lack of long range anti vehicle weapons. 5th is all about troops in Rhinos  :)

Expensive units. The cheapest infantry unit cost 12ps and is basically only good for taking objectives and hiding in cover. Expensive transports.

You usually only have one Shadowseer to protect your Harlequins in your army if you want to benefit from any of the Great Harlequins upgrades. Maybe the Shadowseer should have been an Elite and the Solitair HQ?

So-so HQs if you compare to Eldar and Dark Eldar, low stats and few upgrades. 

I agree that the IC don't do much and my Harlequins too do all the damage. After just 2 test games I have now added a 4th small Harlequin unit (that will Deep Strike).

15p is way to much for a Mime, compare it to a Trueborn, Wyche, Striking Scorpion or a Space Marine... I think they probably should cost around 10ps and have a Plasma Grenade upgrade option.

But again. I like the synergy of the list and am having a lot of fun with it. Maybe some more tweaks for 6th ed next year and it will be perfect   :)

Zilverscale

Also had 1 question.

The Venom...do they get it from the DE? (ofcourse they'd rearm it :) )
Somehow the transport capacity seems a bit to uhm whats the correct word?? Not as negative a tailored but something similar???

Also is it a dedicated transport? Or a seperate Troops choice?
(looks to much like a dedicaed to me rules wise, haven't used it...love to run the shadowseer blocks ^^ )

PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Rasmus

The venom predates the inclusion in the DE codex. It was in the CJ-list, and it is just a Vyper after all. That makes it more CWE than DE to my mind.
As for dedicated - page 7 has the answer.

Lost Roads - finally released!


YouTube-clip of my Squat army.

Wyldhunt

Quote from: benmannen on August  7, 2011, 04:30:14 AM
There are a couple of things, but I want to emphasize that I don't think any of these should change... I like it as it is.

The Mockingbirds main gun is AP -, which makes it always make a Glancing hit with -3, so it can basically never destroy a vehicle. Unless it's target has taken a couple of hits before.
Ah. I see what you mean, but the mockingbird never struck me as the sort of vehicle that was meant to actually destroy other vehicles.  Instead, it can stun/shake multiple vehicles in a single turn.  This works extremely well against my opponents who like to push all their vehicles up the middle of the board in an easily vibro-cannon'd fashion.  It's also not a terrible weapon for dealing with swarms, though it really shines when shutting down my opponent's vehicles.
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The lack of long range anti vehicle weapons. 5th is all about troops in Rhinos  :) 
I know they're squishy, but Death jesters are pretty good at laying down lots of cost-efficient heavy support.  Plus, you can give them a shadow seer if you really want to, and they'll be untargetable for much of the game.
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Expensive units. The cheapest infantry unit cost 12ps and is basically only good for taking objectives and hiding in cover. Expensive transports.

You usually only have one Shadowseer to protect your Harlequins in your army if you want to benefit from any of the Great Harlequins upgrades. Maybe the Shadowseer should have been an Elite and the Solitair HQ?


So-so HQs if you compare to Eldar and Dark Eldar, low stats and few upgrades.

I'm afraid we'll have to disagree about the mimes. While they are rather squishy outside of cover or in close combat, my mimes are brilliant at taking out sit-and-shoot units behind enemy lines and rarely fail to do at least a little damage to vehicles, even if it is just shaking/stunning them.

As for force org positions for the Hq's and the Solitaire, I quite like things where they are.  The shadowseer is a "story teller" who coordinates the rest of the masque.  The Great harlie is literally the masque's leader.  They're both buffing units that unlock new modes of attack or defense for the harlies.  The solitaire rarely ever hangs out with the harlequins at all and is not even able to join a squad. Not exactly hq material. Plus, only being able to take a max of two shadowseers in an army strikes me as a balancing factor.  My opponents gripe when I'm able to run a single 10-man harlie squad at them without much chance of getting attacked before I reach them. Can you imagine how they'd react to my entire army doing that?
 
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15p is way to much for a Mime, compare it to a Trueborn, Wyche, Striking Scorpion or a Space Marine... I think they probably should cost around 10ps and have a Plasma Grenade upgrade option.

But again. I like the synergy of the list and am having a lot of fun with it. Maybe some more tweaks for 6th ed next year and it will be perfect   :)
Obviously me using mimes at 15 points each is just personal preference among my group of opponents and myself.  My thinking regarding their price is as follows: when in cover (where they belong), they are as resillient to shooting as a striking scorpion and has a similar number of attacks.  Instead of strength-boosting gear, they get fleet and haywire grenades that make them pretty versatile.  To me, they're basically weaker, faster scorpions with anti-vehicle versatility.

benmannen

All good points Wyldhunt, I should playtest more... I'm a bit theoryhammering with only 2 games with the list. I see your points.

I like your Mime usage, I'll try that, I've been using them as a low budget Harlequin and that did not end well. I still think they are too expensive  :)

The Mockingbird did well in my last game where I managed to hit 2-3 units a turn. So I see the potential.


Wyldhunt

Best of luck to you. :)  Of course, we may well wind up using the same units in very different ways.  It's all a matter of what's fun for you. Happy gaming!

Chuckles, The Space Marine Clown

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