Terror hits london again

Started by Wiggus, May 22, 2013, 03:58:10 PM

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Wiggus

Some of you may have noticed terrorism has reared its ugly head in london this time about 20 metres from the station which im based at.
BBC News - Man dead in suspected Woolwich terror attack
My name is Steven Wilson
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Irisado

I didn't realise you were so close to it.  I can't imagine how I would feel being so close to where something like that happened.

It certainly was an unpleasant news item to greet me while I was making my dinner, although it's certainly not on the scale of 7/7, for which, at least, we can be relieved.

I do think that it's important to keep a sense of perspective about this, in that, as shocking as this incident is, some elements of the media are already going into overdrive about community divisions, and possible consequences, and this, to my mind, isn't at all helpful.
Quote from: Dipsomaniac on February  6, 2011, 01:05:46 AMYou haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

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Wiggus

Yep heard the shots and everything, personally i find it far more worrying the funny thing about planning terrorism is the more steps the more things to go wrong from my perspective this is far more worrying we rely on intel to stop these things to happen and if you have dozens of one man bands there truly is very little you can do.
With regards of tensions its already happening mate at the moment 150 EDL 'protesters' are currently attacking police officers in and around woolwich what exactly they are protesting at is beyond me. Although im filled with joy when police bosses say that the standard default patrol is for officers to do their daily patrols on their own :/ but no doubt there will be another round of discussions about arming us.
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

Gunner_Sabot_Tank

Stay safe out there brother. Hopefully they pull their heads out of their fourth point of contact and arm you guys.
Vincere Vel Mori

The GrimSqueaker

Quote from: Gunner_Sabot_Tank on May 22, 2013, 06:56:03 PM
Stay safe out there brother. Hopefully they pull their heads out of their fourth point of contact and arm you guys.

Some UK police are armed. Just not all of them. Remember, the two assailants were shot as part of their capture.

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Wiggus

Personally i wont accept anything more lethal than a taser not because i have an aversion to using it but more that i dont agree with the processing around using it in the uk and the fallout if you need to
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

Gunner_Sabot_Tank

Quote from: Rummy on May 22, 2013, 06:58:34 PM
Quote from: Gunner_Sabot_Tank on May 22, 2013, 06:56:03 PM
Stay safe out there brother. Hopefully they pull their heads out of their fourth point of contact and arm you guys.

Some UK police are armed. Just not all of them. Remember, the two assailants were shot as part of their capture.
I know. Wiggus just referenced a potential round of talks about them being armed up.

Quote from: Wiggus on May 22, 2013, 07:00:28 PM
Personally i wont accept anything more lethal than a taser not because i have an aversion to using it but more that i dont agree with the processing around using it in the uk and the fallout if you need to
And IMHO that is a sad state of affairs. I do truly feel for you LEOs over there and you citizenry as a whole with regards to your firearms laws.
Vincere Vel Mori

IainC

It's a double edged sword. If police are armed with guns then a lot more police officers will get shot. Currently gun crime nationally is pretty rare (although there are places that buck that trend). Criminals don't routinely carry guns and arming police would change that. There's a reason that the strongest opponents to giving police guns have been the police unions and the Police Association as well as overwhelming numbers of the officers themselves.
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Gunner_Sabot_Tank

#8
Quote from: IainC on May 22, 2013, 07:25:48 PM
Currently gun crime nationally is pretty rare (although there are places that buck that trend).
OK, but what about the overall violent crime rate? It's my understanding that sky rocketed as the UK enacted more and more firearms restrictions.

And this attack clearly highlights the fact that disarming the police and law abiding citizens does nothing to stop heinous, violent crimes from being committed.
Vincere Vel Mori

Lachdonin

Quote from: Gunner_Sabot_Tank on May 22, 2013, 07:43:38 PM
OK, but what about the overall violent crime rate? It's my understanding that sky rocketed as the UK enacted more and more firearms restrictions.

And this attack clearly highlights the fact that disarming the police and law abiding citizens does nothing to stop heinous, violent crimes from being committed.

Nothing is going to stop it. Operating on the assumption you can stop crime will inherently lead to failure. It's about mitigation, and frankly, places with lacked or non-existent gun control have the worst mitigation. The idea of 'Arming Up' as a means of combating crime has a terrible success rate. All it does is create an arms race.

Don't get me wrong, i am rather fond of guns, but they are rarely the answer to anything.
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IainC

We've had several gun control threads already. I don't think anything useful is going to come from turning this into another one. I was just responding to the point about arming the police by pointing out that opposition to an armed force comes form the officers rather than the authorities as you seemed to suggest.
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Koval, Master Verispex

Quote from: Gunner_Sabot_Tank on May 22, 2013, 07:43:38 PM
Quote from: IainC on May 22, 2013, 07:25:48 PM
Currently gun crime nationally is pretty rare (although there are places that buck that trend).
OK, but what about the overall violent crime rate? It's my understanding that sky rocketed as the UK enacted more and more firearms restrictions.

And this attack clearly highlights the fact that disarming the police and law abiding citizens does nothing to stop heinous, violent crimes from being committed.
To my understanding, the big one as far as "heinous, violent crimes" are concerned is knife crime, though I'm sure Wiggus can correct me on that. Yes, we do get gun-crime cases, but to the best of my knowledge, crimes involving guns are less frequent than crimes involving sharp stabby/choppy objects. (Which, judging by the reports I've read, this one evidently was.)

Irisado

Statistics collected by various groups show that gun crime is relatively low across the UK.  Fighting fire with fire isn't the solution.

Anyway, back to the primary issue.  I've read about the disgraceful actions of EDL overnight, and while I'm not surprised, it's extremely disturbing that they would disrupt a police operation in that manner.  As if the police haven't got enough on their plate in the aftermath in Woolwich.  It's yet another example of how extremism isn't confined to one side, and why those in power need to keep their heads when tackling this.
Quote from: Dipsomaniac on February  6, 2011, 01:05:46 AMYou haunt my in-box like an ex-girl friend could only dream of.

The Forum Rules - Please Read and Remember Them.

Soñando con una playa donde brilla el sol, un arco iris ilumina el cielo, y el mar espejea iridescentemente

Arquarian

I was very encouraged to see the Muslim council of Britain come out almost immediately to denounce the attacks stating they are in no way aligned with the teachings of Islam.


I agree with Iris that the powers that be, not just the authorities but the heads of communities too work together to diffuse the situation.


Apparently one of the guys was an intelligent 'witty' chap from a god fearing christian family. so what went wrong?? who planted the seed of hate in his head.  That's the real enemy. 


@Wiggus where are you and what do you do?? More importantly where do you play?? I used to live in Lewisham, PM me.

Wiggus

I'm a police officer mate based in Woolwich itself although i live closer to bluewater now i actually grew up in woolwich. this event would have been labelled gun crime even though the knife is used the gun is present. thankfully gun crime is still fairly low however injuries against officers seem to always be on the rise, we just dont seem to make a fuss or even the papers unless one of us dies.
Id happily carry a taser and even if i had it wouldnt have helped in this situation. Irisado is right that it is mostly officers that dont want to be armed but at the same time its not for any reason other than how armed officers are treated if they shoot someone in the uk. You will be suspended, you will be interviewed, and you will not be at work for months, i personally dont think this helps officers that have to discharge their gun. Being around your colleagues who know what you go through is the best therapy.

All day EDL and members of public have been berating officers about how it took 20 minutes for officers to arrive, but as i said you dont bring a knife to a gun fight and i dont even get to carry a knife.
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

Lachdonin

From what i've been reading, I would not call this Terrorism. Crazy people doing horrible things, but not Terrorism. We've had lunatics committing murder and espousing various political and religious principals for decades (or, really, for as long as we've had politics and religion) so why the craze now to label everything as terrorist? If we're operating on the idea that anything inciting fear is an act of terrorism, then we best start charging the media for war crimes.

For me this highlights the continuing problem of not actually having a working definition of Terrorism. The UN still hasn't approved one (mostly because the US, Russia and China keep shooting them down, it's like the damn Torture definition all over again) leaving the media carte blanc to label anything they want as an act of Terrorism. That in its self only serves to push a particular political agenda by inciting panic in the population. Its like cancer, and we need to cut it out.
Remember, you can make yourself a Hero, but only others can make you a God.

The GrimSqueaker

What definition of terrorism do you prefer? I understand what you mean by overly broad terminology, such as the US federal definition of WMD basically including anything that goes pop. So what working definition of terrorism do you favour and how does it work off the current situation (what we currently know of it)?

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Wiggus

Terrorism - The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

Fits to me and to be honest its irrelevant how we define them or this act but how they define themselves and i think its safe to say that that believe they have ideological and political reasons however distorted they are. So in my mind they are terrorists by thought and deed having been on the streets i can tell you its instilled terror only that being British we dont let it stop us doing our normal daily routine. You have to remember that London and England has suffered Terrorism for over 30 years. The key here is when the IRA was the 'bad guys' we didnt feel the need to demonise all catholics so why now do the media feel the need to demonise all muslims, o wait, cause it sells papers to the uneducated and curious.
My name is Steven Wilson
My friends call me Wiggy
My enemies call me Mr Wilson
You may call me Sir!
'Who Dares Wins'
'Better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6'
'I love being a writer; I just dont like the paper work'
'Don't make me angry, you wont like it when im angry'

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